Downshifting, how to ?

[mRillfadE]

does anyone here rev match their engine to your speed to downshift? or do you guys just drop a gear and drop the clutch?
im wanna know which is worse for your car. and when rolling in neutral do u have to take it out of gear first or holding down the clutch will do?

[fishboy]

when i downshift i shift when my speed is low enough that i dont really have to rev match. i use my brakes mainly, but i do downshift when i slow down. when i down shift the car doesn't rev super high, it just revs up to like 3 or 4 mainly. i rev match when i heel-toe at a corner though.;) i guess my advice is if you are downshifting and the car is revving super high that you feel like you should rev match, don't downshift until the needle is like at 2 or 1.5 i guess. dont down shift at 4k or anything like that sheesh. confusing? i think so sorry

[blueiedgod]

downshifting should be done with rev matching, but genrally do not downshift to slow down unless i need more pick up. usually downshift when i need to pass someone, then i rev match.
downshifting to slow down, cost more, since clutches cost allot more than brakes.

[Cone Killer]

Originally posted by fishboy
i guess my advice is if you are downshifting and the car is revving super high that you feel like you should rev match, don't downshift until the needle is like at 2 or 1.5 i guess. dont down shift at 4k or anything like that sheesh. confusing? i think so sorry

This is all good for the street, but when I autocross, I down shift to first usually once each run, and I do it much higher than 1.5 or 2 k, so don't feel like it can't be done or is bad for the car. The safest way to down shift is to rev match, otherwise you run the risk of unsettling the car in a way that could result in a loss of control.

[02blksi]

i rev match because its soooooo smooth when its done right, doesnt even feel like the clutch was ever engaged. --Joe :)

[Lev]

Rev match? I may be doing this when I downshift already, but I guess I don't know exactly what you guys mean.

[BlairSpeed]

If im driving around town, I usually wont downshift unless I can use it to slow down enough to make the green light and not stop. The only real time that I do downshift is if im going to turn and want that acceleration coming out of it or if i want to pass someone, otherwise I just let off the gas and use the brake. Downshifting just uses your clutch more and brake pads cost less then a clutch does!!!! ;)

[AlBlueCar]

Gotta Heel toe downshift. It's like braking and rpm matching all in one. This way, when done right, you won't have to slowly release the clutch and you can prolong the life of your synchros and look like a racecar driver :D . You can just let the clutch move out nice, smoove, and quick. The trick is all footwork. Ill go step by step.
First position your foot so that it can touch both the brake and accelerator.
1. Begin to brake with the ball of your foot. (the "toe" of "Heel-toe")

2. Fully push in the clutch when the rpms reach the 3~3.5k range.

3. Roll the side of your foot to the right to blip the accelerator. A blip is a quick tap of the accelerator. The blip should raise your rpms by ~3000. Remember not to let off the brake or stay on the gas for too long. (the "Heel" of "Heel-toe")

4. When the rpms reach their peak from the blip (usually 4~5 k, remember the braking will greatly reduce the engine speed to around 2k) you can quickly let out the clutch, however don't pop it or drop it. The engine and transmission speeds should be matched and there should be little or no jerking.

5. Let off the brake as neccessary and begin acceleration. Now you will have the maximum torque and will pull away from the turn, or if just coming to a stop, the car will not dive while downshifting.

This may seem complicated, and it is very complicated at first, but with practice, it will become second nature and you'll find yourself doing it at every single chance you get. I could post a small movie if anyone needs it. Have fun :)

[hamproof]

Can somone answer this?

In the 2 scenarios, when you blip the gas pedal to raise the RPM, are you in neutral?

From this website, Heel Toe downshift (http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving_heeltoe.lasso), the author says the gear is in neutral when you blip the gas.

I've been trying to do the same over the years now and I can't do it fast enough. Imagine stepping on the brakes, clutch in, move to neutral, roll foot over to blip the gas, move into gear and release clutch all in 1 single motion in a sec. It is difficult for me to do.

However, if I do this instead: step on gas, clutch in, roll feet over, blip gas, shift into gear, clutch off. Then it is much easier. It is the part where I have to move the gear to neutral before blipping gets me. My brain can't multi-process.

Now, for rev-matching, do you clutch in, rev it to matching rpm of next gear (lower), shift and clutch out? Or do you clutch in, shift to neutral, rev it to matching rpm of next gear, shift and clutch out?

I believe if you leave it in gear while clutch in and blip the accelerator, you only match the engine speed but the synchros are not matched. Thus the proper way would be to have it in neutral whenever you blip.

Any comments?

[Rummey]

When I am "heel-toeing"....

1) Car is in 3rd, approaching an on ramp
2) Push in clutch pedal
3) Shift to 2nd (do not stop in neutral)
4) Apply slight brakes
5) Blip throttle right when I get into 2nd
6) Let clutch pedal out

When done right, steps 3,4,5,6 happen in about 1/2 second.

Mike

[hamproof]

If in step (3) you already shift into 2nd. How do you do step (5)??

That's what I'm saying. If I don't stop at neutral before I blip, I can do it reasonably fast. But instructions that I read online seem to indicate I am suppose to stop in neutral and blip.

Here's how I do it currently.

Assuming I'm in 3rd.

1. Step on brakes
2. Clutch in
3. Blip
4. Shift into 2nd.
5. Clutch out

I'll try to reverse (3) and (4) today. Basically your method.

[Jontis]

My "steps" (don't like that term)

1. Brake
2. Clutch in
2,5 blip
3. Shift
3,5 clutch up
4. Accelerate

It's all about timing...
I do it all the time. (for practice)

But during up tempo driving it is for keeping the
balance in the car. If you don't you transfer weight
from the back tires to the front.

[MINIVANKILLER]

Just make sure you do not go into 2nd gear out of 3rd at 6 grand..when you meant to go into 4th...that hurts your car..to the tune of about $1300.00....good luck on the smooth turns..I will stick with the straight lines for now. I will autocross soon though. All of this will be helpful then..

[Loudpedal]

A stipulation of attending racing school was the ability to heel and toe as the trannys in the F2000 cars I drove were not syncromesh. I practiced for months in advance getting it down pat in my Isuzu I-Mark Turbo.

Once I repeated what I learned in a car that had pedals positioned for heel and toeing it was so much easier. Overall the EP pedals are positioned pretty well for heel and toeing (not perfect but not too bad). My only advice is to not only follow the steps above, but also watch (even from the backseat) someone who is proficient at it. After that continue to practice, practice, practice.

12 years later, I heel and toe every downshift I make, matching revs without even thinking about it. I sometimes don't even realize I'm doing it. Oh yeah, doing it well does impress passengers, and usually if not always separates the truly skilled and practiced drivers from those who are ham fisted and rough. If I'm a passenger with someone who does not match revs heel and toeing I immediatly question their ability to drive well at any speed above a pedestrian pace, much less a truly spirited pace.

[natesi]

Can someone make a video in our ACTUAL civic Si? I've tried heal and toeing... And I just can't get it.


In order to "heal" I have to brake extremely hard to blip the gas. then I go jolting forward. What am I doing wrong?

How do you brake LIGHTLY and heal?? Can we get special pedals that are better suited for this? Or.....???

BTW, what are the chances your toe will slip off the brake when healing?

[hamproof]

It sounds like you are pretty good at it. Do you mind giving your version of instructions?

I'm confused as to when I'm suppose to downshift and also if I'm suppose to be in neutral when I blip. From your posting, I gather in older cars, you need to be in neutral coz' of the lack of a syncromesh. However, in modern cars, EP included, it is not necessary. But the correct technique, is to in neutral when blipping. Am I understanding it correctly?

TIA

[Loudpedal]

You are understanding it correctly. Essentially, all of the above members tips are variations of how to heel and toe. I'll quickly run thru mine.

Approaching corner:
-as I'm braking (with my toes), my right foot is on a 45 degree cant (meaning my toes are on the brake and my heel is basically hovering in air infront of the gas pedal)
-a few car lengths before my turn in point I will move the gearbox to neutral and "roll" the side of my right foot against the gas pedal. This is more of a quick stab (and is not really done by your heel, more like the right side fo your foot). It also looks rather unusual, like you're driving with a broken ankle.
-once the revs rise, I engage the lower gear and let out the clutch. If you've matched the revs well, you should not have to slip the clutch when letting it out. You can virtually step off the clutch without having the revs rise or fall.
-once the gear is engaged you can enter your corner, continue to brake, accelerate, or whatever.

It's basically getting the gear selection work done before the task of cornering begins, as your cars chassis will be settled having done the work before the corner.

In practicing this, plan on missing shifts, braking too hard, not braking hard enough, generally looking like a jackass with your car and looking like you don't know how to drive. It's best to practice away from anybody, in a safe area (with plenty of cornering room) and with no passengers. Don't get discouraged, keep practicing till you get it.

Now, I'd be pleased to share my technique for cracking wheelies on sportbikes if anyones interested. ;)

[cmk05]

I've always hit the brake with my right heel and I rev-matched with my toes. But I often find it difficult to modulate the braking just right - i.e. come into the corner too hot with too little brake or brake too early and wind up crawling into the corner. I never thought to do it the other way around (heel on gas, toe on brake) - it makes sense though - I'll have to give a whack at it.

As far as added clutch wear goes - if you just keep it smooth with the right rev-match and drop the clutch with little or no drivetrain lash, I don't think you'll put much stress on the clutch.

Just don't do a lot of downshifting without rev matching (so you feel a sudden, jerky deceleration when you drop the clutch) or you'll end up having to replace your clutch at 40k mi like my jackass friend did with his integra.
Actually, always strive to drive smoothly, with no drivetrain lash - and keep all the inputs smooth - gas, steering, brake - so as not to upset the car's balance.

:confused: