will our ep be able to hit 13's all motor?

[si02racerboi]

if so what would you need? and how do people make there motors so loud, my friends 92 lude only has short ram intake, and some kinda chip and his motors hella loud, i like hearing the sound of all motor, anyways what would our car need to be 13 secs all motor??

[Chrisbgft]

Well, cut your exhaust off from the cat. That should make it loud enough for ya..:D

[fishboy]

probably a chip, a short ram, and a loud engine.

[Chrisbgft]

just put your K20a3 on a go cart, 13's all day...

[Mugen_EP]

Here's a short list:

1. APC taillights
2. Powered by Honda stickers
3. Windshield squirter lights
4. Neon under car kit
5. 91 octane "race fuel"
6. Supra style wing on top of your car

[Chrisbgft]

"rice rice baby, alright calaborate and listen, i got a single over head cam w/ no vtech!" Rice Rice Baby...

[si02racerboi]

iam serious ! i dont like exhaust jst the sound of the motor

[Tekdemon]

To get 13's all motor you'd need:
1) Massive weight stripping...that means no spare tire, jack, rear speakers, rear side paneling, front speakers, head unit, AC, sun/moon roof, cruise control, EPS(you don't need this to drag lol), fans for heating/cooling, any remaining inside body paneling, floor panels, all seats, front dash stripped to just steering and stripped shifter. Stripping weight from inside the doors and rear areas too, replace anything in the car you can with lighter parts, exhaust and other piping, flywheel, airbags, etc.
Get down to about 2000 pounds if you can.

2) Port and polish engine, new pistons and aggressive cams, balance the engine, get a custom chip reprogrammed to allow 8300 RPM, and attempt the insane: QUAD THROTTLE BODY(this will make your car as unreliable as ice in boiling water) to gain like another 30% HP-this will most likely force your idle RPMs up to an obscene RPM(like 2-3K) in order to keep the damn thing running and you'll need a retune after every run.

I dunno if you'd make 13s after this, but low 14's should be possible if you do the weight stripping and get that stupid quad throttle body to actually work.

Umm yeah so the cheaper way to pull this off is to go buy a faster car that has a powerful NA engine...yeah that would do it.

[iR-VTEC2]

it can do 13 minutes if you just take your time :)

why all the rush? :D hehe jokes.

[ssvr6]

I don't think ITB's would be necessary. I'm sure that in a few years there will be some fast ass K powered cars (not just the Type S).

It's a 2.0L, it has plenty of room to grow. I'm sure with the proper weight reduction and engine tuning, it could be done.

Steve

[Dunrick]

I've seen n/a D16's run 13's - our K20a3 will mos definitely run 13's with the proper stuff.....It will not w/ the stuff that is out now though, just not enough.

[goy091]

haha you bought the wrong car if you want it to run 13's all motor. it can probably be done but with all the money spent, to me, it would not be worth it.

[Mugen Power]

Originally posted by Chrisbgft
just put your K20a3 on a go cart, 13's all day...

Hahaha, I'd rather put it into a Super 7. :cool:

[StrangeShadow]

my friends 92 lude only has short ram intake, and some kinda chip and his motors hella loud
b series loud mofo engines,
k series ...i think they took lessons on sneaking into young lady's house's, whos fathers are retired police-men...

[goy091]

4th and 5th gen Ludes have H series engines, 2nd and 3rd Gen Tegs have B series as well as the 99-00 Si

[modern-perf]

Easy 13 second recipe...

1. Buy a K20A2
2. Add AEM CAI
3. Stir in Hondata re-flash
4. Toss on lightweight wheels and Falken Azenis or equivalent
5. Throw the A3 in the dumpster

[Dunrick]

Weak - A2 is not a Si

You have about all of those mods - and your not anywhere near 13's - It will take more than that stuff....

[DownTheHatch]

Forget all motor, I'd rather put on a turbo and beat some guy who's riding around with no interior and polished internals.

[I SELL HONDAS]

speed cost money how fast do you want to go? 13 seconds will cost you at least 5-7 thousand dead presidents........ :'(

[iR-VTEC2]

Prove it :)

[Lee Chun]

Originally posted by si02racerboi
if so what would you need? and how do people make there motors so loud, my friends 92 lude only has short ram intake, and some kinda chip and his motors hella loud, i like hearing the sound of all motor, anyways what would our car need to be 13 secs all motor??

People benefit most by learning english and good grammar.

[StrangeShadow]

4th and 5th gen Ludes have H series engines, 2nd and 3rd Gen Tegs have B series as well as the 99-00 Si
oops. sorry about that, was half asleep and thought it was just another person comparing b/k series (monster) sounds :p

[StrangeShadow]

btw what are your 1/4 times like modern-perf?

[Jontis]

My friends N/A CTR will probably run 13's this season... :)

[StrangeShadow]

cool ctr pics :)

[Jontis]

Thanks. :)

[Tekdemon]

Originally posted by modern-perf
Easy 13 second recipe...

1. Buy a K20A2
2. Add AEM CAI
3. Stir in Hondata re-flash
4. Toss on lightweight wheels and Falken Azenis or equivalent
5. Throw the A3 in the dumpster
I think this setup should get you into the low 14s but I dunno about 13s...
A catback plus good headers(maybe the jackson racing ones) on top of this would definitely help plus Hasport mounts to help on launches.
Then 13.9's should be possible if you're a GOOD driver =P

Although I suppose you could just go weight stripping like insane to get down to 13s with that motor setup...

But yeah it'd be a hell of a lot easier to just install the Cybernations or Rev-Hard or Ultimate Racing turbo kits then smoke anybody who's all motor...you just can't get 240 all motor HP out of the A3(well i guess theoretically you *could* but it's hard) and even if you did you wouldn't have the torque the turbo would give(although you would be lighter...). But per se you were lighter and all the turbo owner could just up the boost and it'd be game over again =P
240whp@7psi vs maybe 190whp out of the A3 all motor(and that's assuming you did a LOT of work to get to 190...a hell of a lot). Maybe 200whp if you're REALLY good and lucky...

If you really want all motor 13s get like a Mustang Mach 1 or something and tune that =P

[StrangeShadow]

Easy 13 second recipe...

1. Buy a K20A2
2. Add AEM CAI
3. Stir in Hondata re-flash
4. Toss on lightweight wheels and Falken Azenis or equivalent
5. Throw the A3 in the dumpster


Just add a turbo to this setup, he prb. already pulls about 200-220hpw with the swap alone. just tune the k2 and throw in a turbo...that's what I plan to do once I pay off my car. =D

[Tekdemon]

?! that's silly to do the swap THEN turbo...our A3's handle boost just fine...=P

[StrangeShadow]

I was just making the assumption that because a k2 is more performace oriented with a more realistic ivetc (kicking in at higher revs), to say the least, that it probably has more potential performce wise with a turbo as to a k3turbo. However, I have not seen numbers of the two (k2turbo/k3turbo) side by side in order to know for sure. Therefore I could be wrong...:)
(I don't know, adding a turbo to a performance oriented k2 engine w/200-220hp prior to the turbo just sounds better than adding a turbo to a 160hp k3...) :p
but if it does the same on the road, then like you said, the swap would be silly :p

[Tekdemon]

StrangeShadow, the reason it's silly with turbo is because an engine can only take so much strain before it becomes damaged.

This has many factors causing the strain including:
1) Boost Pressure in psi
2) The compression ratio(this will multiply by the boost pressure)
3) The RPM speed of the engine(higher RPMs obviously will cause greater strain due to reduced time for forces to shift, etc.)

The K20A2 has a higher compression ratio than our engines, it's over 11, versus ours which is around 9. This means that there is more strain being put on the engine at the same psi on the K20A2 vs our K20A3. Due to this we can simply up the psi higher, and thus obtain similar amounts of power at the same strain level.

The higher RPMs of their engine does also allow them to obtain more power, but once again this puts strain on their engine when you hit those RPMs! Thus once again if their engine can do say, 8000RPM @ 8psi with 11x compression ratio, we could do like 10-11psi@6700RPM with 9x compresssion and make the same power.

To be fair the K20A2 has some advantages in it's design vs ours so that if one were to lower the compression ratio on the A2 it would indeed be a superior boost engine. But unless you're going all out for a crazy race-car there's no real point!

The K20A3 obtains about 240whp and 200ish lb/ft of torque under 7-8psi of boost.

[DownTheHatch]

Originally posted by Tekdemon

The K20A3 obtains about 240whp and 200ish lb/ft of torque under 7-8psi of boost.

I can live with that.

[StrangeShadow]

cool thanks for helping me with that :)

[chunky]

at least compared to the b16/b18 motors.

you will need internal work done though.

and you can make it daily driveable easily. here's a short list.


upgraded valvetrain. possible valvetrain swap with a k20a2, or just a head swap. But you could even use the stock valvetrain with more agressive cam grinds, you'd just have to deal with a lopey idle.

increase compression. 11.0 at the least, 11.5 or 12.0 would be ideal. you can still run 93 octane with those compression ratios.

k20a transmission swap with custom final drive gear.

standalone engine management. you will need to rev to 9000+rpm

That plus other necessary work will get you into the mid/low 13's n/a with the k20a3 head/block. If you wanna run 12's, you're gonna have to bore the block to at least 2.2 in addition to everything i've mentioned.

but you nonbelievers will soon see, the k20a3 is not that much of a handicap from a tuning standpoint as most people think.

[2k2_nbp_egg]

Originally posted by chunky
at least compared to the b16/b18 motors.

you will need internal work done though.

and you can make it daily driveable easily. here's a short list.


upgraded valvetrain. possible valvetrain swap with a k20a2, or just a head swap. But you could even use the stock valvetrain with more agressive cam grinds, you'd just have to deal with a lopey idle.

increase compression. 11.0 at the least, 11.5 or 12.0 would be ideal. you can still run 93 octane with those compression ratios.

k20a transmission swap with custom final drive gear.

standalone engine management. you will need to rev to 9000+rpm

That plus other necessary work will get you into the mid/low 13's n/a with the k20a3 head/block. If you wanna run 12's, you're gonna have to bore the block to at least 2.2 in addition to everything i've mentioned.

but you nonbelievers will soon see, the k20a3 is not that much of a handicap from a tuning standpoint as most people think.



Wow thats a fuckload of work for a bitch to tune / not very reliable engine :(. I would personally rather buy a much more reliable K24 pushing 200hp and 170tq stock, get a hondata reflash and bolt ons and run low 13s all day. Also, an A2 w/ tires, reflash, motor mounts, and bolt ons WILL get you into the 13s with proper driving skills, it'll just be much easier with a K24. An A2 w/ mods and tranny/harness/ecu will also be a HELL of a lot cheaper than rebuilding your A3.

As for the A3, I'm sure it's capable of n/a 13s, but like everyone else has been saying, it's going to require replacing / messing with internals

[chunky]

Originally posted by 2k2_nbp_egg
Wow thats a fuckload of work for a bitch to tune / not very reliable engine :(. I would personally rather buy a much more reliable K24 pushing 200hp and 170tq stock, get a hondata reflash and bolt ons and run low 13s all day. Also, an A2 w/ tires, reflash, motor mounts, and bolt ons WILL get you into the 13s with proper driving skills, it'll just be much easier with a K24. An A2 w/ mods and tranny/harness/ecu will also be a HELL of a lot cheaper than rebuilding your A3.

As for the A3, I'm sure it's capable of n/a 13s, but like everyone else has been saying, it's going to require replacing / messing with internals

1) who says it won't be reliable? and who says it will be hard to tune? N/A is not hard to tune, it just requires you to put some time and effort into tuning the motor instead of doing rough adjustments with piggyback ecus.

2) a k24 will not be anymore reliable than a k20 a3 with upgraded valvetrain.

3) the setup i mentioned will hand a hondata ecu + boltons k20a2 it's ass, it won't be doing 13.99, it will be doing closer to 13 flat.

4) valvetrain upgrades are not difficult. You could get into the 13's on a stock bottom end i'm sure.

5) valvetrain + pistons + standalone engine management = less than cost of used k20a2 by FAR. And to be honest, you can install everything w/o having to pull the entire motor, which is a major pain on the ep3 (hood clearance issues force the motor to be swapped from UNDER the motor).

It's just a matter of personal preference. doing valvetrain upgrades & higher compression pistons doesn't scare me. Some people just don't wanna mess with it.

[Tekdemon]

Originally posted by chunky

2) a k24 will not be anymore reliable than a k20 a3 with upgraded valvetrain.
5) valvetrain + pistons + standalone engine management = less than cost of used k20a2 by FAR. And to be honest, you can install everything w/o having to pull the entire motor, which is a major pain on the ep3 (hood clearance issues force the motor to be swapped from UNDER the motor).
I can't really agree with these two points together...
Most likely a stock K24 would be far more reliable than any engine you've done so much work to...only because the engine is manufacturered to specific tolerances for each part, and most likely any handiwork you do afterwards doesn't have quite the same fit together.

And I also have to disagree that it's more money just to drop a K20A2 or K24...it's a hell of a lot cheaper to drop a K24 in my opinion-mostly because you can actually sell your A3 and recoup much of the cost.

And it's way easier to drop a K24 right on in, bolt it up, and be right there...of course, not as fun, but nonetheless, far easier =P

[chunky]

Originally posted by Tekdemon

I can't really agree with these two points together...
Most likely a stock K24 would be far more reliable than any engine you've done so much work to...only because the engine is manufacturered to specific tolerances for each part, and most likely any handiwork you do afterwards doesn't have quite the same fit together.

And I also have to disagree that it's more money just to drop a K20A2 or K24...it's a hell of a lot cheaper to drop a K24 in my opinion-mostly because you can actually sell your A3 and recoup much of the cost.

And it's way easier to drop a K24 right on in, bolt it up, and be right there...of course, not as fun, but nonetheless, far easier =P

there is no current k24 that makes 200hp & 170+ ft-lb of torque. so I can only assume he was talking about a frankenstien k24 with an a or a2 head. That is not stock, and that requires a head swap which is pretty much the same as what i'm proposing. Not to mention k24's will have to have beefed up internals to run the higher rpm due to poorer rod/stroke ratio.

It is more money to drop in a k20a2 or k24. A NEW k20a2 would go for 8000+. When you build the valvetrain, you build with all new parts for much less than 8000+. You could buy a used k20a for 5000+ and you'd still save money buying new valvetrain parts. And as for recovering part of the cost via selling the a3. You'll be lucky to get 3000 for an a3. New valvetrain does not cost more than 2000$, say 600-700 for the cams, new pistons & rings probably 700-800 bucks, new valvesprings & retainers 300-400, new head bolts/studs 100 bucks. That puts you at 1900 on the high end. It will most likely be cheaper.

dropping in a k24 doesn't apply to the ep3. in order to do a swap, you HAVE to be able to lift the car high enough to drop the motor out from under the car. so it's not exactly something you could do in your garage. You can change the head, and also change the pistons on an EP with the block still in the car. That's a big plus for us driveway mechanics.

[StrangeShadow]

I've heard most used k20a2 were going for 3-4k, dc5r are 5k+,
why lift the car, I think two ppl on here have done it without lifting the car?

[Tekdemon]

Originally posted by chunky

dropping in a k24 doesn't apply to the ep3. in order to do a swap, you HAVE to be able to lift the car high enough to drop the motor out from under the car. so it's not exactly something you could do in your garage. You can change the head, and also change the pistons on an EP with the block still in the car. That's a big plus for us driveway mechanics.
I'm pretty sure someone's done this without lifting the car...
Can't the engine be lifted from up top with an engine lift?

Anyway, regardless, you can get a K20A2 used for around 3-4K! Sell off the A3 and voila.
there is no current k24 that makes 200hp & 170+ ft-lb of torque. so I can only assume he was talking about a frankenstien k24 with an a or a2 head. That is not stock, and that requires a head swap which is pretty much the same as what i'm proposing. Not to mention k24's will have to have beefed up internals to run the higher rpm due to poorer rod/stroke ratio.
Ummm look in the new TSX...and see what the power specs say =P
As for the K24 making that much power, there's even a 240hp version of the K24 around... I dunno if this is legit or what, but supposedly it's the Euro Type R...

Just in case you're still doubting about the K24's power:
http://www.acura.com/models/model_specs_index.asp?module=tsx
Engine Type

Aluminum Alloy in-line 4-cylinder
Displacement (liters)
2.4
Horsepower (SAE net)
200-hp @ 6800 rpm
Torque
166 lbs-ft @ 4500 rpm
Valvetrain
16-Valve, DOHC, i-VTECTM
Redline
7100 rpm
Compression Ratio
10.5:1
Fuel System
PGM-FI Multi-Point Injection
Injection System
Electronic Direct
Throttle Control
Drive-by-Wire Throttle System
Emission System
LEV-2
Cooling System Capacity
Manual: 5.4 U.S. quarts (5.3 liters)
Automatic: 7.4 U.S. quarts (7.3 liters)
Crankcase Refill Capacity, including filter
4.2 U.S. quarts (4.0 liters)

And I'm sure once you tune the engine you could get quite near the "Euro R"'s 240HP rating...Hondata(when it comes out), headers, intake, catback, hiflow cat, etc, should get the engine doing 220bhp easily...and aggressive cams should pump it up even more.

[chunky]

Originally posted by Tekdemon

I'm pretty sure someone's done this without lifting the car...
Can't the engine be lifted from up top with an engine lift?

As far as I know, you have to drop the motor out from under the car. Even the people who've done the swap w/o a lift have had to lower the engine to the ground, and slide it out under the car. I haven't done this myself, so I'm just speaking by what i have read from the various shops that have done swaps on the ep.



Anyway, regardless, you can get a K20A2 used for around 3-4K! Sell off the A3 and voila.

if the k20a2 is going for 3-4k used, then your k20a3 isn't going to fetch 3-4k. I personally have yet to see a reputable motor dealer selling k20a2's for less than 5500. I won't risk buying a used motor off another person unless they offer some sort of startup garantee etc.



Ummm look in the new TSX...and see what the power specs say =P
As for the K24 making that much power, there's even a 240hp version of the K24 around... I dunno if this is legit or what, but supposedly it's the Euro Type R...

Just in case you're still doubting about the K24's power:
http://www.acura.com/models/model_specs_index.asp?module=tsx
Engine Type

Aluminum Alloy in-line 4-cylinder
Displacement (liters)
2.4
Horsepower (SAE net)
200-hp @ 6800 rpm
Torque
166 lbs-ft @ 4500 rpm
Valvetrain
16-Valve, DOHC, i-VTECTM
Redline
7100 rpm
Compression Ratio
10.5:1
Fuel System
PGM-FI Multi-Point Injection
Injection System
Electronic Direct
Throttle Control
Drive-by-Wire Throttle System
Emission System
LEV-2
Cooling System Capacity
Manual: 5.4 U.S. quarts (5.3 liters)
Automatic: 7.4 U.S. quarts (7.3 liters)
Crankcase Refill Capacity, including filter
4.2 U.S. quarts (4.0 liters)

And I'm sure once you tune the engine you could get quite near the "Euro R"'s 240HP rating...Hondata(when it comes out), headers, intake, catback, hiflow cat, etc, should get the engine doing 220bhp easily...and aggressive cams should pump it up even more.

the eruo accord r still uses an h-series motor. I have yet to hear of a euro accord-r that utilizes a k24.

And the original poster said 170ft-lb - that's why i assumed a frankenstien k24. I knew that the tsx was 160ish.

but anyhow, cost will be about the same between the two paths (motor swap v.s. upgrading a3), and reliability can be almost as good as stock if you pick your parts carefully and drive prudently (i.e. not at 9000rpm all day long).

I personally would rather bore the stock block than go with the k24. the k24's rod ratio has to be worse than the k20 - which makes it worse in the long run IMO.

[modern-perf]

PoRT pulled his motor from the top, but had to disconnect his AC to do it. I dropped mine out of the bottom--no lift needed, and my AC still works.

The A3 is weak-sauce. Period. 12 valves until 2300 RPM and a sorry excuse for VTEC. The only way to get an EP into the 13s all motor is to start with an A2.

Somebody a while back said that an A2 isn't an Si. Well no shit. But the original question was "would our EP get into the 13s all motor.?"

If the question was "would our Si get into the 13s all motor?" then the simple answer is NO

[I SELL HONDAS]

bet me!

[Tekdemon]

Originally posted by chunky
the eruo accord r still uses an h-series motor. I have yet to hear of a euro accord-r that utilizes a k24.

http://www.clubtsx.com/bbs/engine/topic/34.html
The fact that it says iVTEC on the engine would hint that it is indeed a K24 engine no?


And the original poster said 170ft-lb - that's why i assumed a frankenstien k24. I knew that the tsx was 160ish.
[/B]
166 is 4 lb/ft away from 170...and I'm almost certain with the right mods you could see well over 170 =P


Anyway it'd be about 1093942838x as simple to just drop the K24 block for your A3 instead of buying an A2 head, buying the K24 block, then putting them together THEN swapping it for your A3...

K24 block, future K24 Hondata(oh there will be one haha), intake, exhaust, headers, and about 260HP plus 170lb/ft....mmmmmmm

[2k2_nbp_egg]

Whoops my bad....i meant to say 170ish...and 166tq is 170ish my friend. And yes, the K24 is in the Euro Accord R. You know....the one that looks like the TSX.....

Anyway, why the fuck would a high strung, high compression A3 be as reliable as a COMPLETELY STOCK K24 from Honda's testing grounds? You can't say that it'd be as reliable as a K24 is IF you drive it prudently, because then it's obviously not as reliable in the first place. I promise you if you redline both the engines all day long the high revving bitch is going to blow before the stock/almost stock K24. The K24 is also pretty much a stroked version of our engines...if i remember correctly.

I personally would rather have the stock 166ft/lb@4500 than whatever shitty tq numbers you'd be making at 13 gajillion RPMs. 2.4 liters stock, that's clearly a huge difference in potential between these two engines. Shit, just to tune the k24 to 100 hp/L (not too hard w/ a honda) would bring it up to 240HP, and considering Type S's are making 200 to the wheels (230ish crank?) out of their 2.0L, I'm sure more HP would be easily attainable. Not to mention its not a high revving bitch so driving/racing would be much smoother, torquier, and easier. Gobs of low end tq...hmm sub 2 second 60 foots anyone?