Goodnews for supercharging the si...

[SF-SI-02]

Yo, sorry if this is old news, but Jackson racing just released on their website that si superchargers are shipping in June. My friend had an si with JR supercharger, and I swear, the only car we ever raced and lost to was a viper. These guys know what they are doing, and although the turbo vs supercharger decision is truly a personal one at the end, I think anyone who even thinks about putting in a turbo, should look at least read up on superchargers.

L8r

[mhx]

What year is your friends SI that has the JR kit?

What other mods does he have?

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by mhx
What year is your friends SI that has the JR kit?

What other mods does he have?
good question! :cool: only a viper! hahahahahaha! maybe with vortech supercharger...nah, no even that

[SF-SI-02]

Regarding my friend's si, it was a late 90's model, I wasn't into civics at the time, but he certainly changed that. From what I remember he told me the jackson racing supercharger had upgrades, i.e. different pully then stock JR, and then just your standard fare cold intake and the like. I won the scratch lottery when I bought my si, and it was between the si and the wrx (don't like vr6), and I have been regretting the fact that I didn't pick up the wrx (I certainly had enough cash for either), but I am hoping that the supercharger will bring me closer to the wrx. I'll admit though, the wrx is too common, I see one on the freeway, I pull up to race, and 9/10 times its some housewife in her husbands car who can't find 5th. That's what's great about the si badge, you pull up to any year si, and you know you are dealing with an enthusiast, always ready for some good natured racing, with no hard feelings at the end. The people that get pissed after racing, are the loser investment bankers in flashy bmw's with gucci sunglasses who try and race, but then are too afraid to pass a semi at 105 mph so they pussy foot only to catch up on a straight away where they obviously have more power than you.

[sniperSI]

If we supercharge/ turbo charge our cars, with the stock psi the comapnies suggest, we will be whooping 90% of the new 4 cyclinders, that come stock with turbos, and in my mind, that would be as if honda came out with a stock turbo si.


siT

instead of

TSI

or

STI

[ballsdeep]

Originally posted by SF-SI-02
Yo, sorry if this is old news, but Jackson racing just released on their website that si superchargers are shipping in June. My friend had an si with JR supercharger, and I swear, the only car we ever raced and lost to was a viper. These guys know what they are doing, and although the turbo vs supercharger decision is truly a personal one at the end, I think anyone who even thinks about putting in a turbo, should look at least read up on superchargers.

L8r

I dont know what kind of gains your friend got from his jrsc but the numbers I've seen for the ep are around 200 HP I can think of a shit load of cars that can smoke that and probably your buddys too. I'm not tryin to talk smack because I drive an si but lets be realistic.

[I SELL HONDAS]

40-50hp wouldnt put a big a$$ smile on your face?:D

[EPTree]

For that much money?...................................no

[esmith13]

40-50whp (200whp total) is a hard sell for around the same price as a turbo.

Especially since the turbos coming out seem to be boasting about having ~240-260whp for about the same price...

Now, I'll be the first to admin, the concept of how a supercharger works makes it seem like a better solution than a turbo, but not if there's a 60whp difference going against it.... All the shortcomings of a turbo are insignificant when it's ~60whp more that a supercharger for about the same price, IMHO.


Eric

[mhx]

Originally posted by esmith13
40-50whp (200whp total) is a hard sell for around the same price as a turbo.

Especially since the turbos coming out seem to be boasting about having ~240-260whp for about the same price...

Now, I'll be the first to admin, the concept of how a supercharger works makes it seem like a better solution than a turbo, but not if there's a 60whp difference going against it.... All the shortcomings of a turbo are insignificant when it's ~60whp more that a supercharger for about the same price, IMHO.


Eric


I have yet to see any DYNO's of PEOPLE who run the kit and get 240whp.. Revhard dyno could be anything... Lets see a real person with the turbo's dyno..

[chubbychu]

oh boy another super-vs-turbo thread to get me all mixed up. SO, IS THERE NO way to match the superchargers power to a turbo's power? basically im asking if we can get 240 hp with the super.

[Tekdemon]

Originally posted by mhx



I have yet to see any DYNO's of PEOPLE who run the kit and get 240whp.. Revhard dyno could be anything... Lets see a real person with the turbo's dyno..
well there's also the Cybernation kit...

I doubt that you have to worry about whether or not the Cybernation Stage II kit *really* makes power or not...cuz even if their 426whp dyno is off by 50whp I think we're good =P

[SF-SI-02]

Ok, so perhaps the turbo wins at the whp contest. I am not biased either way, but my understanding was that the supercharger will give more consistent gains throuhgout the rev band, and moreover is, foir one eason or another, safer than a turbo wirh respect to potential engine damage. Could someine give me the digits as to what are the tradeoffs not only performance but also some potential damage numbers as well. I have seen cybernations's numbers on their website, well, I buy what they claim, but I wonder fo how long? (till engine failure)

[EPTree]

Use the right sized turbo, tune the thing right, change your oil when you're sposed to, and don't drive like an idiot and there's no reason your engine shouldn't last longer than you'll have the car. FI is FI, but a SC puts added strain on the engine all the time. And if you have the right sized turbo for the application, you should have no more lag than an SC and a whole hell of a lot hp. But if you're not willing to take care of a turbo car, go SC...

[sniperSI]

FI is FI your right. But putting 7psi JRSC on a car or a 7 PSI rev Turbo, your still doing the same damage to your car. Only thing better about a super charger it bypasses itself until you really start reving.

i feel dejavu when i read all this.

[CSMsi311]

Originally posted by EPTree
Use the right sized turbo, tune the thing right, change your oil when you're sposed to, and don't drive like an idiot and there's no reason your engine shouldn't last longer than you'll have the car. FI is FI, but a SC puts added strain on the engine all the time. And if you have the right sized turbo for the application, you should have no more lag than an SC and a whole hell of a lot hp. But if you're not willing to take care of a turbo car, go SC...
werd.
excerpt from "Supercharged!" by Corky Bell. highly recommended for superchargers and "Maximum Boost" for turbos.

In reference to showing how power can be doubled without the combustion chamber pressure doubling.
"Any significant design load changes would be based on peak pressure in the chamber, peak pressure is up only about 20%. There are two reasons for this disparity.
First, power is a function of the average pressure over the entire stroke of the piston, NOT JUST PEAK pressure. The average pressure can be dramatically increased due to the much higher relative pressures near the middle or end of the stroke, while the peak does not gain significantly.
Second, peak pressure is generally reaced after only 18-20% of the mixture has burned. If the mixture quantity is doubled, 10-20% of it, too, will have burned by the time peak pressure is reached. Since the total chamber pressure consists of the compression pressure plus the burning gas pressure, it is impossible to double the total pressure by doubling only one of its constituents."

SniperSi: You still don't think the stock Si has 5 psi boost do you?

[Rueda del Queso]

The reason I think superchargers would be harder on an engine is that they don't have intercoolers that keep the gas at a lower temperature after compression.

[CSMsi311]

Just for clarification that excerpt applies to any form of boost.

Something to think about.
As far as a supercharger not having an intercooler. With a supercharger it is going to heat the air by 1.) increasing the pressure, 2.) The small amount of compressed air that leaks back to the atmospheric side, 3.) Heat transfer from the engine

With a turbo you have the turbine being spun by exhaust gas temperatures in excess of 1000*F, which spins the compressor (note the compressor is not at 1000*F, but will still be much hotter than a supercharger). And the air is still heating up from increasing the pressure of the air.

I guess my point would be even though a supercharger does not have an intercooler does not mean that the temperature of the air going to the engine will be substantially higher than an intercooled turbo. And you don't have to worry about heatsoated intercoolers.

[Tekdemon]

It's not very easy to rig an intercooler to most of these roots type superchargers but if you really want to cool the charge you can use water injection...

From what I understand it *does* work, although it seems strange to a lot of people to be injecting water lol

[JruSi02]

dayum ya'll sound like you didn't know jackson sells the aftercooler thing to go with superchargers, isn't that anything like an intercooler for a turbo? doesn't it cool the engine/supercharger kinda in the same way or am i totally off, i saw it on jackson's website and have heard of it but dont know exactly what it is.

[CSMsi311]

Originally posted by JruSi02
dayum ya'll sound like you didn't know jackson sells the aftercooler thing to go with superchargers, isn't that anything like an intercooler for a turbo? doesn't it cool the engine/supercharger kinda in the same way or am i totally off, i saw it on jackson's website and have heard of it but dont know exactly what it is.
JR doesn't sell anything that works like an intercooler. You are probably thinking of the water injection kit that JR sells.

Injecting a fine mist of water helps by
1.) Drawing heat out of the air charge
2.) Slowing down the flame in the combustion stroke. Or you could say it helps control the flame during the combustion stroke.

[Tekdemon]

Originally posted by CSMsi311

JR doesn't sell anything that works like an intercooler. You are probably thinking of the water injection kit that JR sells.

Injecting a fine mist of water helps by
1.) Drawing heat out of the air charge
2.) Slowing down the flame in the combustion stroke. Or you could say it helps control the flame during the combustion stroke.
what he said =P

what I am curious about is how much water this system actually uses...I can't figure out approximately how often I'm going to be filling up whatever resevoir this thing probably gets water from...and is it gonna have to be distilled water?

and it does seem a little strange to me too to be spraying water into the engine...if it mists incorrectly I'm guessing hydrolock could occure lol...

[CSMsi311]

2 of my friends ran the Aquamist system. Apparently it is better and cheaper than the JR system. I believe they filled it up every 600-800 miles or so. With 1 or 2 quarts of either very filtered water or distilled water. It only sprays when certain parameters are met; for example: over 6 psi, above 4000 rpm, ... This keeps you from refilling the tank all the time.

The nozzle is very small and if it malfunctions it is mostly likely to NOT spray water. Which can still be very bad if you are counting on it heavily to avoid detonation.

[D16Y8_Turbo]

If anyone read the "Special K" article in Velocity magazine by Honda, you might know that the Jackson Racing Supercharger is only boosting 4.X lbs. Not exactly pushing the envelope. My guess....a potential upgrade (ie Boost Upgrade) for more boost and other goodies that JR usually sells with their kits for customers wanting more.

Considering I have a turbo Honda now, I want to try the supercharged route and therefore I will be ordering a JR supercharger (built into my lease) along with my Si in the next week or so. Why supercharger you ask and not turbo again? Simple: driviability.

My take on FI for all those you haven't had the pleasure of experiencing:

Supercharger Pros: Instant boost (max) which results in great throttle response, good gas mileage (but who cares if you go FI), driviability, no maintenance reguired, and practicality.

S/C cons: limited in boost, you have to change a pulley in order to run more boost which also requires less timing, higher octane, plugs, etc.

Turbo pros: all out performance power, tuning ability (able to adjust boost by wastegate or boost controller), the joys of spooling up while driving by someone and having the guy in the next lane look over as if he just got buzzed by Maverick and Goose.

Turbo cons: depending on how well turbo is matched, slow spool up results in greater top end but low power/torque in lower rpm's, quicker spool will result in power comes on strong quickly but tampers off at the end of the tach. Blow off charge pipes, tuning, overheating (least in the Greddy kit because its cast iron).

But you get the point. The two questions you need to ask yourself before you buy.....1. What is the main purpose for FI 2. How much are you willing to spend in order to make it right (In other words, fork over the dough for tuning and people who know what they are doing when installing, plugs, oil, maintenance etc.

From my experience with my Turbo D16, I can tell you its a blast when its running but keep in mind that our rides didn't come with FI and that changes alot when you have to modify the car to handle FI. I'm quite tired of changing plugs, adjusting fuel pressure, boost, etc. for everytime I drive it to school/work or to the strip. Therefore, I'll install a S/C on the Si and forget about. Simple as that.

[Dunrick]

Well put. Finally somebody who can back up what the fuck they are saying. Although some turbo kits don't require that much tuning, if you stay in stage 1.

[BlackNRedSi]

WOW...that was the first time i actually read the full thread and i didnt want to bead someone up!

I am not putting any .02cents in on this except for the fact that i want a TURBO or SUPER i aint greedy! :) just need someone to buy it FOR me! :)

[SiR Medic]

Originally posted by D16Y8_Turbo
Supercharger Pros: Instant boost (max) which results in great throttle response, good gas mileage (but who cares if you go FI), driviability, no maintenance reguired, and practicality.

S/C cons: limited in boost, you have to change a pulley in order to run more boost which also requires less timing, higher octane, plugs, etc.

Turbo pros: all out performance power, tuning ability (able to adjust boost by wastegate or boost controller), the joys of spooling up while driving by someone and having the guy in the next lane look over as if he just got buzzed by Maverick and Goose.

Turbo cons: depending on how well turbo is matched, slow spool up results in greater top end but low power/torque in lower rpm's, quicker spool will result in power comes on strong quickly but tampers off at the end of the tach. Blow off charge pipes, tuning, overheating (least in the Greddy kit because its cast iron).

But you get the point. The two questions you need to ask yourself before you buy.....1. What is the main purpose for FI 2. How much are you willing to spend in order to make it right (In other words, fork over the dough for tuning and people who know what they are doing when installing, plugs, oil, maintenance etc.



*claps hands*

Very good post! A turbo holds very little appeal to me, but a S/C peaks my interest!

I've never been a big fan of "turbo-lag". I want smooth power, not the "all or nothing" jerkiness of turbos.

[andy]

Much of the "jerkiness" of a turbo can be attributed to whether
the turbo is a good fit for the engine, and the driver.

For example, check out steve's (ssvr6) dyno, if you haven't
seen it already:

http://www.fluidideas.com/cms/images/260whp03si.jpg

Look at how flat the torque curve is from 4K on...stay above
4K, you have a lot of fun (and bad gas mileage ;) ). Stay under
it, and you just don't boost a whole lot. For the $$$, it seems
like turbo is the way to go. If they cut the price of the S/C
in half, then it would make more sense (to me, anyway).

Either way, it'll still be fun to see what these EP's can do...

[PAsi]

I just got a reply from Steve Mendez at mossmotors aka JR and this it the exact reply I got:

The release date is set for late July . sorry we do not have any numbers
yet.

Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 1:20 PM
To: 'jacksonracing@mossmotors.com'
Subject: S/C for the 02-03 Civic Si



When is the S/C system for the 2002-2003 Civic Si going to be released and
how much it will be for the Street and the Race versions and what is
included in each. I am very anxious to hear what you have planned for our
cars.

[CSMsi311]

the amount of boost that is fed into the engine is directly related to throttle position.

For example, i can WOT shift at 4000 rpm and still be seeing 5 psi almost right away.

or if i use less throttle but not shift as early i'd be lucky to see 5 psi before 6000 rpm

[EPTree]

Ok, it's damn well just about July so what's the word on the JRSC. SOMEONE GET THE DAMN THING. Cuz I'm running out of time before I have to make the decision between Turbo and Super (a decision I'm enjoying very much :D ) Money rox.

[Blackapino85]

stupid question but here goes. the jrsc is smog legal in calif. but are any of the turbo kits (cybernation, ultimate racing, rev-hard) smog legal? it seems like the guys with the turbo ep's don't live in calif. i hope greddy and hks will get off their asses soon!

[FailureToStop]

Rev-hard kit is CARB pending.

[ssvr6]

Originally posted by FailureToStop
Rev-hard kit is CARB pending.

Yeah, and I have the winning 6 numbers right here in my hand!

There's just no way.

Steve