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View Full Version : 18's 17's or 16's (maybe 15)



sniperSI
05-05-2003, 08:17 AM
Ok,


Someone once posted in this forum something to the effect of, 16's are for show, 18's are for go, and 17's are confused people. Which i thought was funny and it made me ponder.

What i am pondering; I think our cars are REALLY hard to find a nice rim for. I mean no offense to anyone on here since i don't even have rims but it appears that 80% of the si's with rims, IMO just don't have the proper rim match for the SI. However! 18's on an SI, with a lip look realll nice. BUT of course 18's are heavy.

What i am getting at is, does anyone else find it hard to match our SI's with rims, and do 18's really hinder your performace, handling and overall enjoyment that much?


OO, and if you have 18's or any kind nice lip on your ep's, mind posting a picture?

chunky
05-05-2003, 09:30 AM
I think you're referring to my comment that was more like:

15's are for go, 18's are for show, and everything inbetween (16's & 17's) are for confused people.

I didn't mean it in a bad way, but I was just saying that 15's represent the peformance extreme, 18's represent the show extreme. And people who pick something in the middle want a bit of both.

LeperCon
05-05-2003, 09:33 AM
Maybe I'm wrong, but GRM did a whole article on this issue a whil back, and 15's were only best for a drag type situation, while 17's were found to be best for all-around handling. This was done with a 240SX if I remember right, but correct me if I'm wrong there Chunky. The larger sidewall hurts the handling on 15's, right?

DocofMind
05-05-2003, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by LeperCon
Maybe I'm wrong, but GRM did a whole article on this issue a whil back, and 15's were only best for a drag type situation, while 17's were found to be best for all-around handling. This was done with a 240SX if I remember right, but correct me if I'm wrong there Chunky. The larger sidewall hurts the handling on 15's, right?


There is going to be huge debate no matter where or who you ask this question. Everyone has their own opinions as i do mine. For me, its all about power to weight ratio. That is what i use to decide what wheels are appropriate for the track. Thats why i am one of the only S2000s in the U.S with 16 inch track wheels :)

PS, the larger sidewall does not hurt handling. This is a something that people in the USA have come up with in their own heads and passed it on to other uninformed people who continue to spread the word. The larger sidewall will roll more than a low profile tire but that is not necessarily a bad thing. The larger sidewall will give you increased feel and will help you know where the limit is better.

Next time you got a chance, check out some JGTC cars, look at the sidewall on those bad boys ;)

BSEVEER
05-05-2003, 01:39 PM
Ya, you never see race cars (F1, Cart, IRL NASCAR) on low profile tires. I bet their tires are really expensive though...

EPHatchgirl
05-05-2003, 02:01 PM
Hey everyone! I am trying to decide on a wheel size as well, leaning towards 17's. Anyone with 17's, is there rubbing, do you lose some steering? I know with 18's you do.....

Thanks!

streaker666
05-05-2003, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by DocofMind


PS, the larger sidewall does not hurt handling. This is a something that people in the USA have come up with in their own heads and passed it on to other uninformed people who continue to spread the word. The larger sidewall will roll more than a low profile tire but that is not necessarily a bad thing. The larger sidewall will give you increased feel and will help you know where the limit is better.



Wow, here's someone who knows what he's talking about. You know, people can talk about whatever they want about the tall sidewalls...but if you can't even feel the limit on the stock 15"s to learn car control, how do you become better with 17"s? The problem that I see on the road nowadays is that people don't try to master the car in stock form...and they go on to mod their cars. Of course the mod will make the car go faster, it just doesn't make the person faster...which leads to accidents when they try to push the car to its limit.

LeperCon
05-05-2003, 03:11 PM
Docofmind, thanks for pointing that out, you do have a good point there. I bought my O.Z.'s for the look, but the handling is a nice bonus, as is the ability to upgrade the brakes (have you sent them doco?).

DocofMind
05-05-2003, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by LeperCon
Docofmind, thanks for pointing that out, you do have a good point there. I bought my O.Z.'s for the look, but the handling is a nice bonus, as is the ability to upgrade the brakes (have you sent them doco?).

Im one step ahead of you buddy ;)

Package will arrive on your doorstep Wed. I emailed you the tracking #

You are exactly right though, the minimum i would go with would be a 16 because of the brake options

Mugen_EP
05-05-2003, 03:58 PM
Im running into the same dilemma. I want 15' Mugen RnR's but then I have to stay with the stock brakes.:( So I might have to settle for 17' Mugen MF8's just so I can get some nice Brembo's underneath. I wish there would be a nice rotor & caliper upgrade for a 15' wheel.

Suk02Si
05-05-2003, 04:33 PM
talk to Sherwin(docofmind), he might have something for you;)

www.brakezone.com

BlackNRedSi
05-06-2003, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by EPHatchgirl
Hey everyone! I am trying to decide on a wheel size as well, leaning towards 17's. Anyone with 17's, is there rubbing, do you lose some steering? I know with 18's you do.....

Thanks!

havent heard of any rubbing, i took a ride in esmith13's ep a few times, he has 17's with like a 2 inch drop and there is no rubbing...you will get rubbing with the 18's on our car....

check out 16s :) drop your car like 2 1/2 inches! :)

BlackNRedSi
05-06-2003, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by Mugen_EP
Im running into the same dilemma. I want 15' Mugen RnR's but then I have to stay with the stock brakes.:( So I might have to settle for 17' Mugen MF8's just so I can get some nice Brembo's underneath. I wish there would be a nice rotor & caliper upgrade for a 15' wheel.

AWWWH Mugen_EP i feel soo bad for you that you have to 'Settle' with 17' Mugens! you poor thing! :)

Eric

02SilverSiHB
05-06-2003, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by chunky
I think you're referring to my comment that was more like:

15's are for go, 18's are for show, and everything inbetween (16's & 17's) are for confused people.

I didn't mean it in a bad way, but I was just saying that 15's represent the peformance extreme, 18's represent the show extreme. And people who pick something in the middle want a bit of both.
17's are for show in my book :D That's the only reason I bought 17's.


I think that if anyone is worried about the performance, but must have a bigger rim, that 16's would be the max to go.
Oh sniperSI, I wouldn't go for 18's mainly because there's barely any tire to ride on, imo. It would be a rough ride. I also feel that 18's are just too big on our cars. 17's would be the biggest I'd go if you're not worried about performance too much.

chunky
05-06-2003, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by DocofMind



There is going to be huge debate no matter where or who you ask this question. Everyone has their own opinions as i do mine. For me, its all about power to weight ratio. That is what i use to decide what wheels are appropriate for the track. Thats why i am one of the only S2000s in the U.S with 16 inch track wheels :)

PS, the larger sidewall does not hurt handling. This is a something that people in the USA have come up with in their own heads and passed it on to other uninformed people who continue to spread the word. The larger sidewall will roll more than a low profile tire but that is not necessarily a bad thing. The larger sidewall will give you increased feel and will help you know where the limit is better.

Next time you got a chance, check out some JGTC cars, look at the sidewall on those bad boys ;)

Word. :D

I'll add a few things. There is a point where the sidewall does become too tall. But the stock wheels already have a relatively short sidewall. The reason why they have no "feeling" is b/c the sidewalls are engineered to flex, and roll over. Michelin in particular favors rounded edge construction which allows smoother transition from grip to slip. They use this on most of their touring tires. When you look at higher performance tires, you'll notice a more squared shoulder between the sidewall & the tread. This typically indicates a stiffer sidewall designed to hold it's shape to minimize contact patch distortion. These tires offer significantly more feedback than the stock tires.

So it's not really the net sidewall hieght that holds back the stock wheels/tires, it's the construction. I did some calculations, and the 18" wheels that come standard on corvette z06's have only 10mm shorter sidewalls than the stock 15's on the ep3.

For performance, always go with the smallest wheel/tire that will fit over your brakes.

Speaking of which, Sherwin, You gonna have any sort of upgraded caliper package coming for those of us who elected to stay with a 15" wheel? I know my 15x7 +37 oz superleggera wheels have MORE brake clearance than the stock wheels, easily a 3/4" more all the way around.

DocofMind
05-07-2003, 01:21 AM
Chunky, you know i have always been willing to lend a hand and do what i can when i felt there was a need for me. I poked around with this same idea not too long ago and the respons i got was less than impressive.

You are one of the few on this board that is a true die hard and a smart one to boot. Most people appreciate the better braking but are merely looking for the bling factor. Stock 15s dont have much bling factor ;)

Regardless, I would like to make something for the few that are looking to upgrade the brakes without increasing wheel diameter. PM me or call me at the shop when you get a chance and we can go through a few of the ideas i have been pondering and see if any of them are feasable.

chunky
05-07-2003, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by DocofMind
Chunky, you know i have always been willing to lend a hand and do what i can when i felt there was a need for me. I poked around with this same idea not too long ago and the respons i got was less than impressive.

You are one of the few on this board that is a true die hard and a smart one to boot. Most people appreciate the better braking but are merely looking for the bling factor. Stock 15s dont have much bling factor ;)

Regardless, I would like to make something for the few that are looking to upgrade the brakes without increasing wheel diameter. PM me or call me at the shop when you get a chance and we can go through a few of the ideas i have been pondering and see if any of them are feasable.

thanks for the kind words. :D

I'm interested in a 15" brake upgrade kit, but budget is very important. I'll send you a PM with my thoughts.

mental
05-07-2003, 08:32 AM
i must say i have found some decent looking wheels though... for those of you with the cash check out HRE or if your kinda low on money you could always get 18" rota subzeros in black or gunmetal with a poished lip... these wheels look really nice!!!

BlasTech
05-07-2003, 08:42 AM
Maybe its just the Gearing change from a smaller Outer Diam, but I sure do love the 15" Heliums, its like an engine upgrade. In essence, I got the shorter sidewall and a 15" rim with more brake space than stock.

So, yeah Docofmind, Im interested, too, but I've heard that pads, fluid, lines will give a more noticeable difference than just a slightly bigger rotor, maybe its just the rotor compound that could be improved, not necessarily the size... you're the expert, teach us!

Burgh
05-07-2003, 08:48 AM
Grassroots Motorsports has all the answers. Go to www.grassrootsmotorsports.com and go to "tech topics." Many things like plus-sizing wheels, better braking, etc are all covered in some excellent articles.

Here's the one on plus-sizing: http://www.grassrootsmotorsports.com/plustest.html

brakes:
http://www.grassrootsmotorsports.com/brakes.html

sniperSI
05-07-2003, 10:46 AM
wow that was a whole eye full of brake info.


I think i know where i'm dropping my next 100+ bucks

chunky
05-07-2003, 01:24 PM
That plus sizing article has a skewed conclusion. They did not hold the width of the wheels/tires constant, so their results imply that the only way to get wider tires is by getting larger diameter wheels, which is untrue.

The brake article is useful.

Blastech:

For auto-x, changing pads, fluid, & lines will give a much better improvement than simply changing the rotor size. Tires also have a HUGE bearing on stopping power.

but once you've done all that, you may still need to make deeper brake upgrades. Caliper & rotor size are the two big things then. But you have to understand, that most likely, unless you're road racing, you won't need that kind of stopping power.

I personally Do not think we need 13" rotors to stop well or anything of the sort, But i would like to take advantage of all the space my wheels offer, so going up to like an 11" (v.s. 10.3 stock) rotor would be ideal. And on top of that, a quality forged or billet caliper would offer improved stopping & fade resistance. During road race conditions, the calipers are VERY stressed due to the high sustained heat levels. Forged is ideal, billet is okay if you need to control costs and want something better than the stock cast units.

BlasTech
05-07-2003, 01:49 PM
From that article on brakes, I would consider the Hawk pads, some DOT4 fluid and maybe braided lines, but the billet/forged calipers you're talking about might be a cool (pun intended) thing too, since they would help dissapate heat better from the pads. Maybe that could be something docofmind helps us with anyway.

I agree about the aricle on wheels, its hard to say which in terms of weight/distribution is better between wheels/tires. I mean its almost like, "so what weighs more, a pound of rubber or a pound of steel". Very confusing, but one thing is for sure, I can afford to go through twice as many 15" tires, and that overrides any marginal differences in performance for me, especially when the 15" setup is way beyond comparison to stock.

Too bad you dont live closer, or we could swap out sometime, and you could see how my little wheels affect the gearing.

Burgh
05-07-2003, 02:07 PM
Yeah, good point about the wheel and tire article. The other thing is that they retained the stock sucky tires for the 14" steel wheels and went to ultra high performance rubber when they plus-sized it. So the difference in lap times between 14s and 15s is HUGE but not so big between the 15s, 16s, and 17s.

Here's the other thing. They are measuring performance purely by basis of an autocross course (that's why I love this magazine :D) where handling is probably more important than straight line acceleration. If you're an autocrosser, hey, that's great.

But I'll assume that most people on here are more into drag racing. If you're a drag racer, you'll definitely be affected by the larger wheels slowing you down (mostly due to weight) so you'll probably be better off with the smaller diameter wheels for straight line acceleration. Keep that in mind.

DocofMind
05-07-2003, 03:44 PM
Autox is not very demanding on brakes which is why only a minor upgrade is needed. In fact, i would only change the lines. The OEM pads are actually amazing. I ran my S2000 on the track for quite some time with OEM pads to initially test them before i started playing around with them. The reason is because you dont use brakes in autox. Well, not to the point of fade. If you are, your losing.

Road racing and canyon running is far different. Temperatures exceed the stock limitations and thats where things get hairy. Upgrading components individually will help, but can also lead to other problems. Your stock set up is a matched set. When you upgrade the pad, you are basically pushing the temp limit higher. Without upgrading the rest of your system, you can really hurt other components in your system whil vastly reducing the life of them as well.

The forged 4 piston calipers i use in my systems are provide far more stiffness and rigidity than the cast stock caliper. It also uses 4 pistons instead 1. These two features provide better pedal modulation and balance while maintaining a stock pedal height. The larger rotor provides more leverage to clamp the car down. Being larger and having more surface are does wonders in helping keep things cool. Not only does this help with the initial braking, but in the long run as well because everything lasts a heck of a lot longer.

In addition, these set up are actually lighter than the factory set up. So while you are getting all extra stopping power, you are actually making your car faster with the loss of unsprung weight. Just a few things to keep in mind

Anyone that has ever asked me about upgrading their brakes there is always one question i ask first. "What are you looking for?" If that bling factor is what your looking for, get yourself an AEM big rotor upgrade and relocate your stock caliper. :)