k20a2 swap or k20a3+boost?

[SiGirlNamedSong]

so... would you go for the turbo on the k20a3 or get a k20a2 swap and wait a (very long) while (due to money) to add boost?

[mrfixit687]

the choice is basically, reliability vs power

[chunky]

Originally posted by mrfixit687
the choice is basically, reliability vs power

turbo doesn't mean lack of reliability.

if you use a turbo to make 200hp, you would be at maybe 3-4psi of boost.

the k20 block in the ep3 has been shown to be good for 7-8psi of boost on the stock bottom end.


it's all in the tuning. a poorly tuned turbo setup will kill your internals.

[ssvr6]

I agree! :)


Steve

[Jontis]

I'd go for the swap...

[EP3_DC5]

Swap without a doubt.
I/E, Hondata, Motor mounts, sticky rubber and you will hit 13s if you can drive.
Add ITR cams, ITR intake manifold, race header ITR Hondata flash and you will hit mid low- mid 13s with about 220-230hp to the wheels.
Even with a turbo on the K20A3, the K20A with basic boltons will make more power.

[BlackFL2k2Si]

I would go for the swap as well.

[ssvr6]

I disagree about the K20a making more power and I doubt you can back that up since there are only a few of us on here that are boosted and none of us are pushing more than 8lbs.

I'm POSITIVE that I can make in the range of high 300's and low 400 hp range with this motor. Could an ITR do the same? Sure, but I won't cost me the initial price of a swap to do it.


Steve

[BlasTech]

How about just starting with Turbo, and if anything ever happens to the A3, you can then swap in an A2, and you've got a turbo ready to go...cause you're gonna want both in the long run anyway right? :-b

[tony speed]

Originally posted by BlasTech
How about just starting with Turbo, and if anything ever happens to the A3, you can then swap in an A2, and you've got a turbo ready to go...cause you're gonna want both in the long run anyway right? :-b

i would agree. there's nothing magical about the A2...it's just an engine with 40 more hp than ours. boost will always take you above and beyond that given the proper care and tuning.

[Dunrick]

The a3 is a magical engine :P

[IceD out N CALI]

good question. i'd probably go for the swap even though it wouldnt be as fast, cuz u are starting from a higher platform if u wanted to add more to it later down the road

[AlBlueCar]

K20A2 does have much more support- I emailed TODA to see if I could order cams and camshafts, pulleys, etc... and he said that they only work on the A2 engine b/c most motorsports teams in Japan use that engine, so it looks like there is no love from TODA for us:( but then again if I get head (A2 engine head) then methinks the cams would work.

[2k2_nbp_egg]

I'm dead positive the feeling of the turbo would be about 10 times as fun, and you'd make so much more tq over the A2. However, the A2 swap would be so much less complicated, and doing what the A3 is doing on boost N/A would be impressive. I would do both because I'm an asshole who likes to spend money....so I'd drop the A2 in there for a while w/ bolt ons to keep me happy, and the whole time I'll be rebuilding my A3. Once the A3 is rebuilt w/ a decent sized turbo, I'd drop it back in and have too much fun till I either blow something serious or get tired of the maintenance, at which point I'd sell that ho and go back to the A2...muahahahaha

Under turbocharged conditions tho, aren't they both about the same powerwise?

[ssvr6]

With Cybernation's kit...almost. :)


Steve

[jerky]

i would go turbo first. have fun with it. blow your motor. don't cry because you can sell your turbo kit to help pay for your k20a2. have fun first then chill later.

[02SilverSiHB]

hey, does anyone know what the range of the stroke is on our car by chance?

[SiGirlNamedSong]

main thing..... money IS a problem (with me)...

[2k2_nbp_egg]

Then do the swap....I see you're in Houston. I would pay Rev Motorsports or Carboy to do it if I didn't have much experience or the tools not to (don't mean to hate, but do you think you're capable of doing it? If so then great!) Anyway, both those shops are asian owned and pretty shady lol bad business, but if you supply them with an engine, it shouldn't be too bad. Everytime I visit either one of their garages they have multiple hondas sitting in there w/ their engines out getting rebuilt. Sell your k20A3 + tranny for 2-2.5k and you should only take a 1-2k hit on the engine swap...opposed to over 3k with a turbo.

[mrfixit687]

Originally posted by SiGirlNamedSong
main thing..... money IS a problem (with me)...

if money is a problem then its definitely a swap, a turbo kit with proper tuning will cost alot of money.

steve, what kind of fuel management does your turbo come with? thanks

[ssvr6]

I have an inline pump feeding 550 injectors, the Black Magic ELF, and I'm using the VAFC as well.

That's it.


Steve

[abstrack]

wouldnt u have to change some other things also since the a2 is a 6 speed

[l33t]

Originally posted by EP3_DC5
Swap without a doubt.
I/E, Hondata, Motor mounts, sticky rubber and you will hit 13s if you can drive.
Add ITR cams, ITR intake manifold, race header ITR Hondata flash and you will hit mid low- mid 13s with about 220-230hp to the wheels.
Even with a turbo on the K20A3, the K20A with basic boltons will make more power.

haha dude you will spend a shitload more trying to make na power, running 7 lbs gets 240 whp on this car with the t3/t4, every psi is generally 10-15 hp, build up the bottom end and run on 16 lbs of boost, the na car will be decimated for about the same value in $$ of engine work done

[EP3_DC5]

Originally posted by l33t


haha dude you will spend a shitload more trying to make na power, running 7 lbs gets 240 whp on this car with the t3/t4, every psi is generally 10-15 hp, build up the bottom end and run on 16 lbs of boost, the na car will be decimated for about the same value in $$ of engine work done

Please.........
You have no clue.

ITR cams- $500
ITR intake manifold- $300
AEM CAI- $200
cat back exhaust-$400
Hondata ITR flash-$600
Hondata IM gasket-$50
JR header- $500

Total- $2050

230WHP with simple boltons, no tuning, you can do every mod yourself if you are technically inclined, stock looking engine, especially if you use a Comptech Icebox. Mid 13 sec quarter miles all day long at over 104mph. Very reliable, stock-like driveability (and looks).
If the baseline run was around 165whp (normal for RSX-S), that means this is a 65whp gain, with about a 40 ft/lbs of torque gain.

If you can show me a turbo kit for $2K that can be easily bolted on with no modifications, I would love to see it.

[Makross]

i would go for the swap :)

[gold si]

EP3_DC5, add the cost of the k20a2 engine on to that $2050, i know you can get a turbo kit for that kind of money.

[EP3_DC5]

Originally posted by gold si
EP3_DC5, add the cost of the k20a2 engine on to that $2050, i know you can get a turbo kit for that kind of money.

DOH!!!!:confused:
Forgot that minor detail..............heheheheh
You know what I mean though. Swap and this would be around $4K after selling the K20A3 engine.
Why start working on an inferior engine?

[gold si]

i can't really say which one i would personally do, the engine swap has more potential in the long run, but if you want power right now, and don't have enough money for the swap and to put the turbo kit on the swap then you should do the turbo kit without the swap.

[gpt]

Originally posted by EP3_DC5

Why start working on an inferior engine?

One of the guys on civictype-r.co.uk that has a turbo on his car putting out 260WHP has just blown his head gasket because of the high compression ratio on the Type R motor. He is now looking at getting lower compression pistons, to handle more boost. The A3 is a lower compression motor and so should be able to handle higher boost better.

[raiyo]

Don't swap and do FI your engine.

[EP3_DC5]

Originally posted by gpt


One of the guys on civictype-r.co.uk that has a turbo on his car putting out 260WHP has just blown his head gasket because of the high compression ratio on the Type R motor. He is now looking at getting lower compression pistons, to handle more boost. The A3 is a lower compression motor and so should be able to handle higher boost better.

His car was improperly tuned. The k20a2 will always make more power than the k20a3 under boost if tuned properly.
Just like the K20A will make more power than the A2 on stock internals, if tuned properly. Please do not think that lower compression is the only factor that allows you to make big HP....

[gpt]

Originally posted by EP3_DC5


His car was improperly tuned. The k20a2 will always make more power than the k20a3 under boost if tuned properly.
Just like the K20A will make more power than the A2 on stock internals, if tuned properly. Please do not think that lower compression is the only factor that allows you to make big HP....

Under the same amount of boost the A2 will make more power than the A3 - however because of the higher compression ratio of the A2 and the fact that it's head breathes better it will handle less boost than the A3 (although this is partly because of inefficiencies in the A3 head so is not necessarily a good thing!) Point is though that when you start looking at boost, the A3 is not such a bad motor to start from, and it really doesn't make sense to upgrade to an A2 then boost it (unless you have lots of money lying around!!)

You can think of boost as a kind of leveller between the 2 motors - still rather have an all motor A2 though...... something purer about it.....

[EP3_DC5]

Originally posted by gpt


Under the same amount of boost the A2 will make more power than the A3 - however because of the higher compression ratio of the A2 and the fact that it's head breathes better it will handle less boost than the A3 (although this is partly because of inefficiencies in the A3 head so is not necessarily a good thing!) Point is though that when you start looking at boost, the A3 is not such a bad motor to start from, and it really doesn't make sense to upgrade to an A2 then boost it (unless you have lots of money lying around!!)

You can think of boost as a kind of leveller between the 2 motors - still rather have an all motor A2 though...... something purer about it.....

You will make more power with less boost with the A2 for that exact reason, IT BREATHES. The A3 however does not do so very well.
I understand where you are coming from that it doesn't make much sense to swap, THEN to turbo. Might as well just spend your money on beefier internals, P&P/extrude hone, and then slap the turbo on! =) You will be out a ton of money then, and will still not be making as much power as you could with the A2 with the same money in it, to begin with.

[ssvr6]

We'll see about that...
Check back with me in a year.

Steve

[EP3_DC5]

Originally posted by ssvr6
We'll see about that...
Check back with me in a year.

Steve

How much are you going to spend on rebuilding the internals etc etc? Not a lot of aftermarket support, a lot of parts are going to have to be custom.
Your car is already a beast, and should put down some impressive numbers. The K20A2 is just a better engine to start from.....that's all I'm saying. Not saying that it's worth the price to swap it out, when you can get AWESOME performance from the K20A3 if you rebuild it.
I am also blatantly biased due to the obvious fact that I drive an RSX-S that will hit 13s very very soon (I hope).

[abstrack]

with reading all these posts im not shure wat i want anymore.... turbo or swap... ??? sheesh... too many decisons... maybe ill just get 2 eps and do both;) :D (i wish):confused:

all i know is i just want something that i can drive daily and not have much trouble with....but still kik ass when some showoff revs on me:)

[NBP_03Si]

thinking out loud....
if you swap you may get a 40 hp gain for $1000 (selling you engine)
if you boots you spent $3500 on a turbo and get around 90 hp...

you decide!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

[ssvr6]

I got more than 90hp, I got about 120hp.

If I rebuild it (Cybernation Stage II kit) that includes new pistons and rods and few other upgrades. The total investment would still be less than swapping and boosting a K20a2 and I'd be in the 12's/11's without a doubt.

If the car came as an empty shell and I had the choice at the dealer, of course I'd choose the A2. But to swap a motor for around $5k and then $2k more on NA mods to run 13's seems nuts when you can spend $5k from a single tuner and get 13's easy. (And be boosted at the same time.)

I guess it doesn't really matter. If you have the $ spend it, I just think that the A3 is a better platform for boost. Hell, I make 20 ft lbs of torque more than the A2's do at the same boost.


Steve

[EP3_DC5]

Originally posted by ssvr6

I guess it doesn't really matter. If you have the $ spend it, I just think that the A3 is a better platform for boost. Hell, I make 20 ft lbs of torque more than the A2's do at the same boost.


Steve

I would have to disagree that the A3 is a better platform to boost. The A2 will spin much higher and breathe much better, no matter what. Just like the K20A will be better than the A2. I do agree however if you are going to boost and spend a ton of money, might as well boost the A3.
Have you had your car dynoed yet? And gone to the strip? I am very interested what kind of numbers you are getting.

I just love the K20 motors, and how well they respond to mods (the A and A2 that is)!

[ssvr6]

262whp and 209ft lbs of torque.

I'm hopefully going to the track tomorrow.


Steve

[AlBlueCar]

Allow me to be the first to say


HOLY CRAP!
Nice job.

[EP3_DC5]

Originally posted by ssvr6
262whp and 209ft lbs of torque.

I'm hopefully going to the track tomorrow.


Steve

Excellent numbers. Let us know what you ran.

[BlasTech]

Back to the original debate, whats better in terms of reliability, torque, and performance-per-dollar throughout the whole power band?:

A.) 220 hp turbo'd a3 with stock redline (theoretically, I know its pretty much impossible for anyone to resist boosting farther than that)

B.) 200 hp NA a2 with stock redline (and 6 speed transmission, and resale of a3 motor)

I wonder which I'll be wanting when I hit 36k in a couple of years...
:o

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by BlasTech
Back to the original debate, whats better in terms of reliability, torque, and performance-per-dollar throughout the whole power band?:

A.) 220 hp turbo'd a3 with stock redline (theoretically, I know its pretty much impossible for anyone to resist boosting farther than that)

B.) 200 hp NA a2 with stock redline (and 6 speed transmission, and resale of a3 motor)

I wonder which I'll be wanting when I hit 36k in a couple of years...
:o
I'm thinking of going na and going a step further than the a2 you mentioned. I was thinking of getting that DC5R motor with 220hp and 152tq
http://www.jdmhondaparts.com/engines/K20A-R.jpg

[gpt]

Originally posted by 02SilverSiHB

I'm thinking of going na and going a step further than the a2 you mentioned. I was thinking of getting that DC5R motor with 220hp and 152tq
http://www.jdmhondaparts.com/engines/K20A-R.jpg

Doesn't this motor require 98 octane? Not sure but I thought all the JDM Type R's required very high octane...

[EP3_DC5]

Originally posted by 02SilverSiHB

I'm thinking of going na and going a step further than the a2 you mentioned. I was thinking of getting that DC5R motor with 220hp and 152tq
http://www.jdmhondaparts.com/engines/K20A-R.jpg

The K20A dynos at 199whp stock, lsd, shorter gearing......... But you will need 95 octane gas.........DOH! Any lower and you will get detonation.
With race header and a few other boltons, you are looking at around 220-230whp.
The K20A2 is very easy to get up to that power level as well....... But, it would probably end up costing more to get the LSD and final drive...... But it would be easier to get your hands on a nice K20A2 than a K20A.....dunno.

[KimchiBoy_TypeR]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by EP3_DC5
[B]The K20A dynos at 199whp stock, lsd, shorter gearing......... But you will need 95 octane gas.........DOH! Any lower and you will get detonation.

[Peking]

Boost, and I love Kimchi :D Korean Pride

[KimchiBoy_TypeR]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by EP3_DC5
[B]The K20A dynos at 199whp stock, lsd, shorter gearing......... But you will need 95 octane gas.........DOH! Any lower and you will get detonation.



No lower than 95 octane gas? Come on man !!!:mad: Dont knock on the superior K20A!!! You know you want it:D any way he doesnt have to get the J-Spec K20 wich puts out 220@8400rpm he can get the Austalian spec(Euro Spec)Motor wich puts out an respective impressive 200hp@7400rpm rated wich can in reality be taken to 8400 RPM. Also the 95 octane for the J-spec motor is not the bare minimum octane for the motor.Honda is really anal and wouldnt want any body to put anything but the best in thier cars. So I think the J Spec motor would run fine with no detonation with 93 octane fuel. I mean really what big differnce is 2 octane points when your just driving around town? Any way the P.I.M.P factor is way larger with a J-spec K20than with an A2. If money wasnt an option and I had mad hookups;) I would deffinately go with the J Spec Type R motor just for pimpin factor :cool: Any way i think there are to many K20a2's in the states and its a lot cooler to be different than be with the masses. Go ahead and get that TypeR motor man!!!! If you do get it I will be one jeoulous Mofo and you would be closer than anyone here at owning a real Type R.

[PoRT]

im running 93 octane on my J-Spec K20A and i am getting no detonation what so ever. i also know people running 92 and they are fine as well

[eurosteez]

Back to the original question................
The lower gear ratios in the SI are a plus for boosting it also.

Im all about FI on the a3. Boost it until death and then swap.
Im gonna wait several years and swap a brand new motor into my SI
Like the old crx b18 swaps *daydreaming*
A 2007-08 honda motor(hopefully k20) in my 02 SI. hehehe

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by eurosteez
Back to the original question................
The lower gear ratios in the SI are a plus for boosting it also.

Im all about FI on the a3. Boost it until death and then swap.
Im gonna wait several years and swap a brand new motor into my SI
Like the old crx b18 swaps *daydreaming*
A 2007-08 honda motor(hopefully k20) in my 02 SI. hehehe
:) try putting you post in one when it's within 8 minutes. :) I took the liberty of editing it for you.

[eurosteez]

sorry my right arm is all swollen from a snakebite so its hard to type and i accidently kept pressing tab and enter.
plus the sweet sweet pain kilers are really stro g. and my face still feels all tingly from the venom
thee whole three post for one idea wont happen again.



:mad: :mad: <---scary ass smiley:D

[Dunrick]

Originally posted by EP3_DC5
Please.........
You have no clue.

ITR cams- $500
ITR intake manifold- $300
AEM CAI- $200
cat back exhaust-$400
Hondata ITR flash-$600
Hondata IM gasket-$50
JR header- $500

Total- $2050

230WHP with simple boltons, no tuning, you can do every mod yourself if you are technically inclined, stock looking engine, especially if you use a Comptech Icebox. Mid 13 sec quarter miles all day long at over 104mph. Very reliable, stock-like driveability (and looks).
If the baseline run was around 165whp (normal for RSX-S), that means this is a 65whp gain, with about a 40 ft/lbs of torque gain.

If you can show me a turbo kit for $2K that can be easily bolted on with no modifications, I would love to see it.

Mid 13's is pushing it...maybe w/ like no interior like you had when you ran a 13.8 -- granted you didn't take it all out. But there are some things people leave out, to make things sound better than what the average person knows.

ON ANOTHER NOTE: I agree with you. The a2 responds crazy good to mods. For about the same cash, you can get "almost" as much power. Ontop of that, have controllable amounts of torque. Ontop of that just as good gas mileage. IMO

Don't rule out turbo though....they can attain more power after 300whp with ease...versus naturally aspirated it gets tricky...

Forced induction has the cool factor aswell....Luckily for people with turbos, the new "NAWWWWS" thing is to hear kids go "OH MAN, BLOW OFF VALVE PSSHHHHHHH"...when you hear turbos all the time in everyday life, go roll your window down to a 18 wheeler and listen to that turbo diesel...thats a spooling turbo...or the school bus for that matter.

K-series is amazing...bottom line. payce

[PoRT]

nah.. mid 13's is about right. my best run is a 13.97 with shitty tires, 2.25 60ft (yea, i can do much better with the right tires, lol just havnt been back)and in 100 degree heat and humidity. (New Orleans) i will go back soon and come home with mid 13's easily. i have beaten 13.6 cars, multiple times and i was there when they ran the times too. i dont think mid 13's is too far away with those mods.. granted i have the JDM K20A, but with the A2 and those mods he listed, you basically have te same motor, just a little different gearing and no L.S.D.

[CIVICBOOST]

Originally posted by 02SilverSiHB
hey, does anyone know what the range of the stroke is on our car by chance?

Since you have been drowned out by the posts its 86mm X 86mm Bore/Stroke

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by eurosteez
sorry my right arm is all swollen from a snakebite so its hard to type and i accidently kept pressing tab and enter.
plus the sweet sweet pain kilers are really stro g. and my face still feels all tingly from the venom
thee whole three post for one idea wont happen again.



:mad: :mad: <---scary ass smiley:D
:eek: holy shit, I hope it wasn't poisonous

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by CIVICBOOST
Since you have been drowned out by the posts its 86mm X 86mm Bore/Stroke
thanks, but I was looking for the range :) I believe I found a few months ago, well for the type s, I believe they are about the same. I can't even remember where the heck I found it, it's been so long ago. It was like 160 something

[CIVICBOOST]

Sorry for being a little late:) I wasnt looking at the date of the posts and was just reading through, some interesting debates going on here:D