stick shift question...

[pLopSI]

Yea yea... it's another stick shift question. Im rather new to driving a stick, n' I was jus wondering if it's okay to skip gears when upshifting?

[pLopSI]

c'mon guys... a little help for a fellow ephatch :angel: :(

[Mugen_EP]

Yes its ok...

[VBSI]

Just remember to push in the clutch-and don't try reverse while moving forward.

[bryan]

I rarely use 4th

[Civicvtec1ps]

you will be fine..

[staticflo]

should double clutching be used when doing this, or is it ok to just press down the clutch and go from 3rd to 5th for example.........sorry im a noob to stick driving also......

[jbarket]

Double clutching is overrated. Anyone who tells you otherwise has seen "the movie" too many times.

You should be just fine shifting from 3->5 just like any other gear.

Personally, I actually try and use 4th, but most people on here seem to skip it.

[Civicvtec1ps]

i use 4th gear like normal people..

[JLannoo]

Originally posted by staticflo
is it ok to just press down the clutch and go from 3rd to 5th for example

yes

[BlackNRedSi]

yeah, and try not to upshift your car too high in the rpms...like if your cruzin in 5th, and your slowing down, dont shift into 3rd and rev your rpms...

i think its called shift breaking, it will slow you down, but will fuk up your tranny in the mean time....

[pLopSI]

sweet, thanx for the help guys. btw, do u guys skip gears cause ur too lazy to shift through all the gears or is jus so that there'll be less stress on the engines?

[Sooky]

Originally posted by staticflo
should double clutching be used when doing this, or is it ok to just press down the clutch and go from 3rd to 5th for example.........sorry im a noob to stick driving also......

double clutching is for downshifting... i mainly use it to reduce wear on the synchro's... but it'll also keep ur car from jerkin forward when u do downshift

[HK_EP3]

double clutching is sort of pointless in my opinion... when u do have to downshift fast in tight corners, I just press down the clutch, hold it down, heel and toe, downshift, then let go of the clutch. Its way faster than double clutching, but i never really understand the meaning of double clutching. is it just when you press clutch in, neutral, clutch out, rev/heel toe, clutch in, downshift to gear, then clutch out? sumbody corret me if wrong.

[Sooky]

Originally posted by Si_Dra6NStyL
double clutching is sort of pointless in my opinion... when u do have to downshift fast in tight corners, I just press down the clutch, hold it down, heel and toe, downshift, then let go of the clutch. Its way faster than double clutching, but i never really understand the meaning of double clutching. is it just when you press clutch in, neutral, clutch out, rev/heel toe, clutch in, downshift to gear, then clutch out? sumbody corret me if wrong.


if i'm racing, yea i'd single clutch (not sure if that's the proper word, but im refering to what u do) cuz its a lot faster than double clutch. but for daily driving i'd double clutch in turns and in straights.

as for the two, the only difference in feeling that i notice is when i shift... double clutching allows a much smoother shift in (assuming that the revs are matched)...
mechanics-wise double clutching will reduce wear on ur synchros & single clutching doesnt...
but ride smoothness-wise they're both be the same.


i can explain the mechanics if u want, but it starts to get complicating

[chunky]

Originally posted by BlackNRedSi
yeah, and try not to upshift your car too high in the rpms...like if your cruzin in 5th, and your slowing down, dont shift into 3rd and rev your rpms...

i think its called shift breaking, it will slow you down, but will fuk up your tranny in the mean time....

it's called engine braking, and it doesn't hurt anything. I'm not sure why people think it's so bad for the engine motor, but i've been doing it for years and never have had a transmission go bad. Transmission/engine failures are usually due to negligent maintenance schedules and improper shifting.

I double clutch whenever possible. I can double clutch very fast. Ever chirp the 1-2 upshift while double clutching? :D

I wrote a detailed article on double clutching way back. it's still a good read if you're curious about how stuff works inside your transmission. http://www.hondalife.com/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=3

anyhow, when downshifting, i always double clutch, ALWAYS, even in a race, it garantees a smoother shift w/o having to ride the clutch excessively. It just takes practice. double clutching during upshifts doesn't help with smoothness really, but it does help minimize wear on your synchros.

[cbecker333]

Originally posted by BlackNRedSi
i think its called shift breaking, it will slow you down, but will fuk up your tranny in the mean time....

Engine braking is totally safe if done properly, and is used by many pros who want to avoid brake fade and get extra stopping power... Just know that it will cause slightly more wear on your clutch (which makes it a question of do you want to save brakes or save clutch more)

oh.....and, yes, you can't downshift to a gear if you are at a speed that will cause that gear to push up past the redline. This is how you damage your engine and we all saw pics of a rsx-s owner that blew his engine doing it. IMO You have to be pretty damn stupid to make this mistake.....

[DetroitRiot]

what exactly is rev matching, and how do you do it?

[cbecker333]

I asked my friend whos smarter about cars than me and he said you have to "rev match" when you are shifting without the clutch (power shifting) so that you don't "stall out". Although, he admits that he doesn't really know what that means in practice. Anyone else?

[jbarket]

Rev matching is blipping the throttle while in neutral (when double clutching or heel-toeing or whatever you're doing) to put you in the correct rpm range for your speed and the gear your'e about to shift into. This keeps your car from jerking.

In other words, assume you're in the mid 3000-4000 range in 3rd.. whatever speed you're going, let's assume that if you were in 2nd doing that speed you'd be in the mid 5000 range rpm wise. You downshift into neutral, then "blip" the throttle to 5200 or wherever it happens to be, and then put it into gear.

[STP03BlueSI]

Granny shifting, not double clutching like you should......:D (The Slow and The Curious.)

[chunky]

Originally posted by cbecker333


Engine braking is totally safe if done properly, and is used by many pros who want to avoid brake fade and get extra stopping power... Just know that it will cause slightly more wear on your clutch (which makes it a question of do you want to save brakes or save clutch more)

oh.....and, yes, you can't downshift to a gear if you are at a speed that will cause that gear to push up past the redline. This is how you damage your engine and we all saw pics of a rsx-s owner that blew his engine doing it. IMO You have to be pretty damn stupid to make this mistake.....

additional clutch wear all depends on how well you rev match the downshift.

I am going on 44k+ miles with tons of downshifting. clutch still chirps 2nd and sometimes 3rd (although the 225's make that kind of rare).

and to those who have questions about revmatching etc, read my article. I go pretty in depth about what various shifting practices do to your tranny.

here's the link again:

http://www.hondalife.com/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=3

[TomR123]

Ahh, the article clears up the whole difference between reg heel toeing and double clutching. Very good write up Chunky.

[cbecker333]

chunky i read your article (which is awesome, by the way) and I have a question:
When I'm double-clutching for a high RPM shift and I want the shift to happen quickly, is there a reasonable limit to how fast I should disengage/engage the clutch while the shifter is in neutral (step 2)? I'm guessing its not ok to just let the pedal fly up and then stomp on it...or maybe it is?

[BlasTech]

I have tried double clutching and it makes me feel like a retard. I would love to see a video of someone doing it right, so I could see what its supposed to be like. Does it look like a spring in your left leg bouncing down and all the way up and down and back up?

[chunky]

Originally posted by cbecker333
chunky i read your article (which is awesome, by the way) and I have a question:
When I'm double-clutching for a high RPM shift and I want the shift to happen quickly, is there a reasonable limit to how fast I should disengage/engage the clutch while the shifter is in neutral (step 2)? I'm guessing its not ok to just let the pedal fly up and then stomp on it...or maybe it is?

when double clutching an upshift, the speed at which you shift should match the time it takes for the RPM to falloff to the level of the higher gear.

for instance, the 1-2 upshift typically results in a 2000rpm falloff. So you press the clutch pedal, shift into neutral, let the clutch pedal go (which couples the flywheel to the input shaft) wait for the rpm to fall off ~2000rpm, press the clutch pedal, shift into the next gear, release the clutch pedal.

Basically, with the stock flywheel, you *should* pause momentarily b/c the rpm do not fall off THAT fast. When I chirp the tires on the 1-2 upshift while double clutching, it means that I should have paused for another split second or so. When you do it right, the change of gear will be absolutely smooth.

When you get a lightened flywheel, then you will be double clutching as fast as you can move your leg - and even then, some people can't keep up (with practice, you should be able to double clutch an upshift with a 9lb flywheel :) ) The reason why you can shift faster while double clutching when you have a lighter flywheel is b/c the RPM fall off much faster. so where it used to take almost a full second to drop 2000rpm, it will take 1/2 that time with a lighter flywheel.

blastech:

double clutching is awkward at first, especially when upshifting. But it pretty much looks like clutch - release - clutch (hold) - shift - release.

So there's one "empty" clutch step which simply serves to minimize the time that the flywheel & transmission input shaft are decoupled.

[van_yammer]

Wouldn't this wear out the clutch faster?

[cbecker333]

Ok, I've tried this double-clutching as chunky described it and I still have a few comments/questions/concerns....

1. First off, the double-clutch technique makes upshifting 100% smoother - I can feel no crunch from the synchros when I do this, regardless of RPM.

2. When I double-clutch on an upshift I find it almost impossible to match RPMs. I've tried going faster, slower, keeping the throttle on just a little bit. Maybe this has to do with switching techniques and relearning to match the RPMs, but I say fuck that because I'm trying like crazy and it never matches up - I always under- or over-rev it and my clutch is hating me for it.

3. When I double-clutch on a downshift, the shifts are still VERY crunchy. I tried it slow, fast, different RPMs, never got a smooth click into gear.

4. I can't deal with the fact that I'm trying to fix Honda's problem with technique. The manual for my car says "Push the clutch pedal down, change gears, gradually lift the clutch pedal." - So I don't really feel it is my responsibility to un-learn and re-learn shifting technique just because my synchros can't handle regular (single clutch) shifts and my (moderate) driving habits.

[chunky]

Originally posted by van_yammer
Wouldn't this wear out the clutch faster?

not if you do it properly. and on the upside, it actually saves wear and tear on the synchros.

[chunky]

Originally posted by cbecker333
Ok, I've tried this double-clutching as chunky described it and I still have a few comments/questions/concerns....

1. First off, the double-clutch technique makes upshifting 100% smoother - I can feel no crunch from the synchros when I do this, regardless of RPM.

2. When I double-clutch on an upshift I find it almost impossible to match RPMs. I've tried going faster, slower, keeping the throttle on just a little bit. Maybe this has to do with switching techniques and relearning to match the RPMs, but I say fuck that because I'm trying like crazy and it never matches up - I always under- or over-rev it and my clutch is hating me for it.

3. When I double-clutch on a downshift, the shifts are still VERY crunchy. I tried it slow, fast, different RPMs, never got a smooth click into gear.

4. I can't deal with the fact that I'm trying to fix Honda's problem with technique. The manual for my car says "Push the clutch pedal down, change gears, gradually lift the clutch pedal." - So I don't really feel it is my responsibility to un-learn and re-learn shifting technique just because my synchros can't handle regular (single clutch) shifts and my (moderate) driving habits.

when you double clutch an upshift, you shouldn't have to use the throttle at all. It's all about coordinating your arm and foot. takes practice.

for downshifting, I assume you're revmatching while doing the double clutch (press clutch pedal, shift to neutral, release clutch pedal, blip throttle, press clutch pedal, shift into lower gear, release clutch pedal). Start taking note of how much of an RPM change occurs between gears. for instance, to downshift from 2nd gear to 1st gear, you need to blip the throttle to raise engine speed by about 2000rpm - a little higher actually b/c it falls off a bit during the time it takes you to clutch, then shift. From 3rd to 2nd i believe it's about 1500rpm.

also, if your transmission doesn't shift smoothly, take it in while still under warranty. or try changing the transmission fluid. you should change it at about 5-6k miles anyhow to rid the tranny of all the shavings produced during break in.

I have no problems with crunchy shifts, and also, if your gearbox has less than 15,000 miles, it's gonna be very tight, and most shifts will not feel buttery smooth. you'll feel some wierd feedback in the shifter, but so long as it doesn't grind, you're good.

[chunky]

Originally posted by cbecker333
Ok, I've tried this double-clutching as chunky described it and I still have a few comments/questions/concerns....

1. First off, the double-clutch technique makes upshifting 100% smoother - I can feel no crunch from the synchros when I do this, regardless of RPM.

2. When I double-clutch on an upshift I find it almost impossible to match RPMs. I've tried going faster, slower, keeping the throttle on just a little bit. Maybe this has to do with switching techniques and relearning to match the RPMs, but I say fuck that because I'm trying like crazy and it never matches up - I always under- or over-rev it and my clutch is hating me for it.

3. When I double-clutch on a downshift, the shifts are still VERY crunchy. I tried it slow, fast, different RPMs, never got a smooth click into gear.

4. I can't deal with the fact that I'm trying to fix Honda's problem with technique. The manual for my car says "Push the clutch pedal down, change gears, gradually lift the clutch pedal." - So I don't really feel it is my responsibility to un-learn and re-learn shifting technique just because my synchros can't handle regular (single clutch) shifts and my (moderate) driving habits.

when you double clutch an upshift, you shouldn't have to use the throttle at all. It's all about coordinating your arm and foot. takes practice.

for downshifting, I assume you're revmatching while doing the double clutch (press clutch pedal, shift to neutral, release clutch pedal, blip throttle, press clutch pedal, shift into lower gear, release clutch pedal). Start taking note of how much of an RPM change occurs between gears. for instance, to downshift from 2nd gear to 1st gear, you need to blip the throttle to raise engine speed by about 2000rpm - a little higher actually b/c it falls off a bit during the time it takes you to clutch, then shift. From 3rd to 2nd i believe it's about 1500rpm.

also, if your transmission doesn't shift smoothly, take it in while still under warranty. or try changing the transmission fluid. you should change it at about 5-6k miles anyhow to rid the tranny of all the shavings produced during break in.

I have no problems with crunchy shifts, and also, if your gearbox has less than 15,000 miles, it's gonna be very tight, and most shifts will not feel buttery smooth. you'll feel some wierd feedback in the shifter, but so long as it doesn't grind, you're good.

[cbecker333]

I gave this another try on my way to work today (took the long way :)) and when I "blip" the throttle properly, the downshifts work much better. After my drive today I decided the technique is really not that diffucult - just that I was conditioned to doing it the other way. I find that if I double-clutch most of the time, my regular shifts (single clutch) end up smoother too...

Thanks again, chunky! Great advice and I can't wait to apply it to those crunchy, cold, winter shifts....