PROOF that supports HIGHER OCTANE USE IN OUR EP's

[02blksi]

From: http://beta.vtec.net/articles/view-article?article_id=8542

"Past B16 Civic Sis put down around 130-135 hp to the wheels. A 25 hp loss is pretty normal for a FWD Honda, so that's about what we expected to see from our preproduction test car. So, imagine how surprised we were when our first test only put down 128 hp! That was a bit lower than we expected. Then we realized part of the problem. Not having a service manual, and looking at the 9.8:1 compression ratio, we assumed 89 octane gas would be fine. However, it appears the engine really likes premium (If you can call California's 91 octane "premium"). After refilling with premium we found a gain of more than 2 hp and 3 lbs-ft of torque. Not bad, but not quite as good as some of the 135-136 hp numbers we'd heard about for the new Civic's K20A3."


BTW CLICK THE LINK ABOVE A WONDERFUL ARTICLE ON THE K20A3 IS ON THAT SITE! DYNO's ARE ALSO FOUND ON THAT PAGE READ IT ALL!!!!

__Dont shoot the messenger i just copied and pasted. -- joe

[Pradamuimui]

Your totally right...our engines will run better with premium gas. I dont see it anywhere in our cars, but in my friends GSR it says to ONLY use PREMIUM GAS. You bought the fastest Civic that they make besides the Type R so use PREMIUM GAS, and you will be a lot happier!!!

[02blksi]

I DO :) (93octane) and I AGREE TOTALLY WITH THAT ARTICLE --joe

[IceD out N CALI]

Makes sense. When I put premium it seems to be a tad quicker.

[iR-VTEC2]

I had a conversion with ep hatch boi about octane ratings. he said that he uses 89 cuz its cheaper and gets better mileage> I told him that by using higher octane fuel, he'd actually get better gas mileage as higher octane burns more efficiently.

Does anyone aggree?

[HondaMan]

Ugh, I need to start putting the good stuff in again.

[MPgrunt81]

iR-vtec,
You're definetly right. I have only used 93 octane in my Si and will continue to do so. Meanwhile to all you people where an exhaust is just an exhaust and what difference does 2 or 3 horse make keep on using 89. Enjoy losing to me though.

[iR-VTEC2]

Just as I suspected!

[Febrezee]

Yeah all I run is 91... Unless i can find 93...

[2k2civicSi]

Originally posted by MPgrunt81
Meanwhile to all you people where an exhaust is just an exhaust and what difference does 2 or 3 horse make keep on using 89. Enjoy losing to me though. http://www.lamer.net/wave-finger.gif

[Spidey]

great. I did a search on which gas to use and 1/2 the camp said premium and cheapo for the other. I'm on my 2nd tank filled with premium (the 1st one the dealer filled) and was going to convert to 87 octane. I think I still will because the extra $$ is not worth the 2-3 hp, but I will see how it drives and make the comparison

[Mechanic]

02blksi,

Thanks for the post. But, did you see the gain realize when the airbox was replaced with something less restrictive? Seven hp! And that's with no mods on the exhaust side and 87 octane fuel. That's a big number.

[MadMax]

That article has been posted before. If not here, on clubrsx.
It only proves 2 things:

1. Jack

2. Squat.

...and Jack just left town.

There are way too many things going on to conclusively say that going from 89 to 91 octane gave an increase of 2 hp. Hell, you could see a 2 hp gain just by changing brands. Even the same car on the same dyno with the same gas will produce slightly different #'s each time it's tested.

[HondaMan]

Originally posted by 2k2civicSi
http://www.lamer.net/wave-finger.gif

LOL, cool animation. ;)

Well, I will probably still run 87 or 89 for just driving to work and back, but when I go to the drag strip or start autocross'ing I'll run the good stuff (92+). :)

[MPgrunt81]

Originally posted by 2k2civicSi
http://www.lamer.net/wave-finger.gif

yeah, cool animation. and fuck you too.

[greenguy]

Originally posted by MadMax
That article has been posted before. If not here, on clubrsx.
It only proves 2 things:

1. Jack

2. Squat.

...and Jack just left town.

There are way too many things going on to conclusively say that going from 89 to 91 octane gave an increase of 2 hp. Hell, you could see a 2 hp gain just by changing brands. Even the same car on the same dyno with the same gas will produce slightly different #'s each time it's tested.


http://www.howstuffworks.com/question90.htm

This will support what I've been saying about detonation.

[SpacemanSpiff]

Facts:
The owners manual calls for 87 octane.
The i in i-Vtec means that the ECU can continuously change the engine's timing.
The engine has knock sensors to detect detonation

So my theory is that the ECU has some "wiggle room" in it's control of the timing. For instance, on a nice 50F degree day, 87 octane may allow the engine's timing to be fully advanced, but on a day when it is 105F, timing may be retarded a little to avoid engine knock. If this is true, the Honda engineers could tune the engine to peak efficiency using 87 octane under perfect conditions, and still have some margin for error under bad conditions.
So higher octane fuel use would give the engine a little more power under some conditions.......?

If someone has a better understanding of how this engine works, please let me know.

[MadMax]

The i in i-Vtec means that the ECU can continuously change the engine's timing.

Actually the "i" in i-vtec refers to valve timing. Dont get that mixed up with spark timing.

[SpeedRacer]

Originally posted by MadMax


Actually the "i" in i-vtec refers to valve timing. Dont get that mixed up with spark timing.

no the i in i-vtec means intelligent refering to the organic brain they implanted into are motor's

[IceD out N CALI]

organic brain? hahaha

[grooveline]

see... finally some proof to all my hysteria.

[grooveline]

how does advancing and retarding ignition work in relationship to revs?

[iR-VTEC2]

uuhh actually the "i" refers to VTC which is VARIABLE TIMING CONTROL. Timing control...not valve timing control...thats VTEC.

[02blksi]

" 1. Jack

2. Squat.

...and Jack just left town."

MADMAX, Ok since you have OBVIOUSLY spent your money and time, and will be able to post DYNO plots that prove this write up by a reputable online company means jack-squat . Lets see it! Until then the only thing that means jack squat is your post. --joe

[Hondatech]

Haven't we been over this enough?? As stated before, the quality of gas from company to company, the ambient temp. engine temp, etc. can all expain the "extra" horsepower seen from the "high octane" gas. I have PERSONALLY tested my EP with our Honda-issue PGM Tester and CONFIRMED that there is ZERO timing retard from the knock sensor. Plus, documented cases from Honda Canada of cars having starting difficulties when run on premium gas when regular was specified.

Anyway, put in whatever makes you sleep well at night. Me, after seeing with my own eyes thats there's no knock retard, and trusting that the Honda engineers did their job, I'm going to keep using 87. and I'm going to keep arguing against wasting money on high octane juice every time this dumb topic comes up.

[MadMax]

uuhh actually the "i" refers to VTC which is VARIABLE TIMING CONTROL. Timing control...not valve timing control...thats VTEC.

**sigh...*** :rolleyes:

both VTC and VTEC control valve timing.
VTEC refers to multiple cam profiles.
VTC shifts the angle (phase) of the cam to advance or retard valve timing.


MADMAX, Ok since you have OBVIOUSLY spent your money and time, and will be able to post DYNO plots that prove this write up by a reputable online company means jack-squat . Lets see it! Until then the only thing that means jack squat is your post. --joe

Actually i HAVE spent my money and time but it was not on dyno plots - it was on a mechanical engineering degree.
Like I said before, a difference of 2 hp between 2 different dyno plots does not conclusively prove anything. There are simply too many variables.

[02blksi]

Actually i HAVE spent my money and time but it was not on dyno plots - it was on a mechanical engineering degree.


YAWN**** im impressed thanks for posting about your rocket science background. :rolleyes:

[MadMax]

Has it ever occured to you that some people with technical backgrounds know a few things that you dont? Just wondering...

[iR-VTEC2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MadMax
[B]

**sigh...*** :rolleyes:

both VTC and VTEC control valve timing.
VTEC refers to multiple cam profiles.
VTC shifts the angle (phase) of the cam to advance or retard valve timing.



yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyeaaaah ok PTPTPTPPTPTPTPTPTPTTPTP :

[MadMax]

**sigh**

Once again...


Timing control...not valve timing control...thats VTEC.

What the hell did you mean by that then? VTEC / i-VTEC / VTC: its all valve timing man...

[02blksi]

"Has it ever occured to you that some people with technical backgrounds know a few things that you dont? Just wondering..."


Has it ever occured to you that some people may not need a piece of paper to show there knowledge, rather they let there work speak for itself ? BTW you sir have proved nothing about your so called technical knowledge . What was the last turbo hybrid you built? and GT3 doesnt count.! --joe

[Hondatech]

What was the last turbo hybrid you built?

How do we know you even built this 12 second Civic? For all we know, you threw a bunch of money at an engine builder/tuner shop and got back a 12 second car. Go Go Gadget Dollar! Even if you did, building a 12 second car these days is a purely bolt on affair. Anyone with an aftermarket catalog and enough cash can bolt together such a ride. When was the last time you used Honda designed equipment to moniter the functions of an i-VTEC engine. Thought so.

I've got proof from Honda data collection insturments thats there is no spark retard, and thus no horsepower gain from using higher octane fuel.

You've got NOTHING.

[MadMax]

I didnt think you could build a hybrid in GT3. I dont think thats one of the upgrades...


Has it ever occured to you that some people may not need a piece of paper to show there knowledge, rather they let there work speak for itself ?

Hmmm... That sounds like one of those things that people who didnt go to college say...

Anyways, the significance of my having an engineering degree is that I know that theres a certain amount of error and variation when you measure anything. And unless you account for that, you havent proven anything.
When you make a conclusion and claim to have proven something without having adequate data to back it up, its called being "unscientific".
I am not claiming to have proven something, and you ARE. When I say that your results are unscientific, you are supposed to explain to me how they ARE scientific instead of challenging me to provide evidence for something I'm not even trying to prove.

[MadMax]

Even your source of data doesnt claim to have proven anything:


Not bad, but not quite as good as some of the 135-136 hp numbers we'd heard about for the new Civic's K20A3. However, a few hp variance is not unheard of.

[02blksi]

OK hondatech you TOOL. You asked for it ill provide it.
--Bolt on affair, HMMMMmmmm Not in my car --

Go to that little www icon on the bottom of my page, then follow it to the photo section. Now look at the pics of my car, engine done, front bumper off, finally finished etc. I can also post pics of me welding to if you want, notice the intercooler piping look familiar??? Yes they are summit u bends.. Notice my fuel controller, SDS (You know what that is right smartass?), see that manifold? not your average drag gen 3 is it? intercooler look familiar? see an untuned 228whp and 203 ftlbs (not bad for an ass dyno tuning? from someone with just a hands on background no piece of paper here) oh yea almost forgot, maybe i should post pics of the egine going in and my sohc coming out, or my NOS install? OR better yet my tranny (clutch replacement) that i did with HAND TOOLS no impact gun here! You try holding a tranny case with one hand while securing the case to the block with the other. Oh YEA, you cant RELATE you dont know a F*cking THING, I swear to god this site is turning into CSI cause of not it alls like YOU.! Grow a F*cking sack.

"You've got NOTHING."

You are right, as posted before the original link is all the proof that i needed, SO ONCE AGAIN PROVE THEM WRONG!!!! LETS see this :
"I've got proof from Honda data collection insturments thats there is no spark retard, and thus no horsepower gain from using higher octane fuel. "

I cant wait to here your response. --joe

[02blksi]

"Even your source of data doesnt claim to have proven anything:"
MADMAX since your college degree did not help your problem with reading ill cut and paste for you :


"Then we realized part of the problem. Not having a service manual, and looking at the 9.8:1 compression ratio, we assumed 89 octane gas would be fine. However, it appears the engine really likes premium (If you can call California's 91 octane "premium"). After refilling with premium we found a gain of more than 2 hp and 3 lbs-ft of torque. Not bad, but not quite as good as some of the 135-136 hp numbers we'd heard about for the new Civic's K20A3.""


And i was just pointing out that just because some people run high octane they are not LOSING horsepower like some members claimed in the original octane debate. -joe

[02blksi]

BTW :

""I've got proof from Honda data collection insturments thats there is no spark retard, and thus no horsepower gain from using higher octane fuel. "

Correct me if im wrong but you stated spark retard, dont you mean advancement? LOL --- your smart ! REALLY :)

[David K.]

So here we go again. I'm gonna sit on the fence on this one, though I do see madmax's point. There are in fact way too many variables in play to attribute a couple hp to any one thing. Dynos, temp, fuel, etc. cannot always be measured exactly and will vary from time to time.

For what it's worth, I run premium in my car for that very reason. It's damn hot down here in Texas, even at night, and maybe it just makes me sleep better, but what the hell it won't hurt to run it. I've never had any hard starting probs. But I know better than to start shouting to the heavens that I've found the key to performance, b/c I haven't. And despite all my brilliance, I did not go to college!!! My bosses are engineers, though:p !!!

[Hondatech]

Well Joe, Thats really peachy that you did that. Sad thing is, you still have nothing, becasue while all that yanking, installing, and welding is really neat for a DIY, thats the sort of shit I get paid to do for a living. Follow the www link at the bottom of MY sig to find the Honda Dealership I work for as a technican. I have access to all the gear and tech support of Honda Canada. You've got a backyard and a few hand tools. Please wake me up with your sad story gets impressive. I am a know-it-all about Hondas because thats what I'm trained by Honda to be. They don't pay me big to be a back yard yokel.

And if you think you're some kind of home brew bad ass, I've got 3 B16A CRX hybrids, one '89 Civic Wagon B18A hybrid, and a ZC Civic 4 door. I haven't had a chance to play with any turbocharging (customers are cheap up here), but I'm installing a Jackson blower for a customer on Wednesday. Wouldja like pics of that??

I'll get to a scanner or Digi-cam and get pics up of the printout from the Honda PGM Tester (software SN 301) showing the RPM trace VS the knock sensor activity. It's pretty boring, what with the knock sensor trace doing NOTHING.

So yeah, you've got some guys from VTEC.NET who made just a hair over 1% more horsepower with a different tank of gas. That !% is statistically useless. I've got datalogged proof that there is no knock retard.

I reiterate. You've got NOTHING.

[02blksi]

I just want everone to undertstand why i posted this topic:

I just wanted to let people know that there cars will run just as good if not better on premium gas compard to regular unleaded. THATS ALL.. IM not saying that you have to go out and buy premium or that the owners manual is wrong, rather that writeup caught my eye.... JESUS, some people on this board HAVE TO BE RIGHT! ---

[MadMax]

What they said:


However, it appears the engine really likes premium

What you said:


PROOF that supports HIGHER OCTANE USE IN OUR EP's



I just wanted to let people know that there cars will run just as good if not better on premium gas compard to regular unleaded.

They never even tried regular (87) like the manual recommends. Maybe THAT was part of the problem. It could also be that they got a sub-standard batch of 89. Or perhaps the 89 was an oxygenated brand. *shrug*

[nikkotyper]

02blksi, I see your point. Cool that you brought it up.

Hondatech , could you post the RMP vs knock sensor activity trace se we can all look at it.

This is a discussion board - we discuss things - no need to get upset over differing opinions.

In summary this might end up being a very successful discussion. All of us might just learn something.

[MadMax]

Hondatech: Can you datalog the spark advance too? I'd be interested in seeing where its at.

[Hondatech]

If the sensors read it, I can datalog it ;)

I am limited though, in that only two thingas can be displayed at the same time in line graph mode. Under what conditions would you like to see a datalog of the spark advance?

[02blksi]

-why are you soooooo hung up on knock retard... Ie detonation??

--"I've got datalogged proof that there is no knock retard."--

WHAT DOES THAT PROVE???? YOU MORON??? I understand that the k20A3 will run perfectly fine on 87, rather the testing was done showing an improvement in hrpwr/trq output when higher octane was used. when the knock sensor is triggered (detonation) as you should already know timing is then retarded to compensate. (loss of hrspwr) SOOOOOo YET AGAIN WHAT IS YOUR POINT??? GREAT YOUR CAR WONT DETONATE ON 87 OCTANE!!! Is it running at its maximum output though???????

--
"--You've got a backyard and a few hand tools. "--
AT least I OWN MY TOOLS/ GARAGE do you?

--"Please wake me up with your sad story gets impressive."--
Thats how i feel everytime you post your nonsense.

--"Follow the www link at the bottom of MY sig to find the Honda Dealership I work for as a technican"--
BTW that reminds me, my engine oil needs changing, and can you
wash and vaccum while you are at it?


--"I am a know-it-all about Hondas because thats what I'm trained by Honda to be. They don't pay me big to be a back yard yokel."--
KNOW IT ALL (supports my theory about "certain" members thinking they, well, know it all) you have shown me nothing!!
Big bucks? changing oil? last time i checked 30k a year there was considered alot of money.

--"I've got 3 B16A CRX hybrids, one '89 Civic Wagon B18A hybrid, and a ZC Civic 4 door" --
LETS SEE THEM! PICS ALL TOGETHER PLEASE.


AND FINALLY :

--"I'll get to a scanner or Digi-cam and get pics up of the printout from the Honda PGM Tester (software SN 301) showing the RPM trace VS the knock sensor activity. It's pretty boring, what with the knock sensor trace doing NOTHING.

So yeah, you've got some guys from VTEC.NET who made just a hair over 1% more horsepower with a different tank of gas. That !% is statistically useless. I've got datalogged proof that there is no knock retard."--

GREAT YOUR CAR WILL RUN FINE ON 87 OCTANE! :rolleyes:

ASE certifiied in BULLSHIT if you ask me. Its a wonder why since you are making the BIG bucks no TUNER company has scooped you up. --joe

[02blksi]

OK OK madmax... you raised a valid point..

They never even tried regular (87) like the manual recommends. Maybe THAT was part of the problem. It could also be that they got a sub-standard batch of 89. Or perhaps the 89 was an oxygenated brand. *shrug*!

I did not think of that... to busy defending my post. good thought though.. --joe

[MadMax]

Thanks, joe. Thats exactly what i meant by too many variables, btw.

Hondatech, if you could log the spark timing during wot acceleration with low octane and then again with high octane - a few runs each. Maybe that would put this issue to rest once and for all. Youve confirmed that the knock sensor is having no effect on spark timing, im just wondering if the other sensors can allow the ecu to make some sort of adjustment.

[02blksi]

do you see what i meant by what i said in response to hondatech stating that there is no knock detected when using 87 octane??? see how that really means nothing, as far as arguing whether or not higher octane use in our ep's produces more power..????

[Hondatech]

-why are you soooooo hung up on knock retard... Ie detonation??

Becuase, unless the computer is pulling back the timing due to knock sensor activity, there is no benefit to using the higher octane juice. Higher octaen gas does not produce power on it's own. It has LESS potential energy (by a very small margin) then lower ocatne gas. If you know a thing or two about how these things actually worked, you'd understand too.


AT least I OWN MY TOOLS/ GARAGE do you?

Yup, I've got quite a set of tools. Including air tools. No shop of any type is gonna give you a set of tools, so every tech buys his/her own. I've got a two bay garage attached to the house, but why the hell would I bother using that for the car when I've got free access to a hoist and compressed air at work??


BTW that reminds me, my engine oil needs changing, and can you

You've tried to make yourself sound like a competent guy. Maybe it's time you tried to operate the vacuum by yourself now?


KNOW IT ALL (supports my theory about "certain" members thinking they, well, know it all) you have shown me nothing!!

Yes, I do know-it-all. I've got diplomias from Honda Canad training to prove that I've learned a thing or two. Everything I say is backed up by actual training by the car company in question. What do you bring to the table?


LETS SEE THEM! PICS ALL TOGETHER PLEASE.

It may be hard to get all the customers back together for a big group pic, but I do have pics of all the projects. As with the datalogging printout, it's gonna have to wait for access to a digi-cam or scanner.


ASE certifiied in BULLSHIT if you ask me. Its a wonder why since you are making the BIG bucks no TUNER company has scooped you up

ASE is only for you guys down in the States. Up here in Canada, if you TOUCH a wrench in a retail shop, you've gotta go through government certification. I have such government certfication. Once again, aside from "your own tools and garage", what do you have?

As for pay, we do get paid well (keep thinking $30K, it makes me laugh), and we do a few more thengs then just change oil.

[Pradamuimui]

Im gonna have to go with Hondatech since he ALWAYS seems to know his shit on everything that there is to know about hondas...in a way its quite inspiring, I hope to one day know as much!!!

[HondaMan]

Originally posted by Pradamuimui
Im gonna have to go with Hondatech since he ALWAYS seems to know his shit on everything that there is to know about hondas...in a way its quite inspiring, I hope to one day know as much!!!

I agree...Hondatech is da man (no offense 02blksi)!

[MPgrunt81]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hondatech

Becuase, unless the computer is pulling back the timing due to knock sensor activity, there is no benefit to using the higher octane juice. Higher octaen gas does not produce power on it's own. It has LESS potential energy (by a very small margin) then lower ocatne gas. If you know a thing or two about how these things actually worked, you'd understand too.
. [/QUOT
I know little about cars but why do race cars and other high output engines use 100+ octane if it doesn't add horsepower? If it does add horsepower then wouldn't it be better to use the highest octane we could if we wanted more power, even though the extra power might be quite small? Just some questions. I am not the expert.

and hondatech... Gov't certification doesn't mean much. Why are you going to knock 02blksi for DIY. Thats how you learn. Just because you have a bullshit piece of paper doesn't mean a thing. He had the balls to go out and do this to his own car why you sit in a sterile risk free classroom and practice on somebody elses car. Then you act like your a better person. Money doesn't make the man. Experience does.

[02SilverSiHB]

wow, this topic is still alive :D just be cheap and use 87 :) anything higher is a waste

[iR-VTEC2]

MPgrunt. I believe they use very high octane fuel to prevent detonation. ya know...BLOWEDEDED UP?

It's not like it gives hp, but enables hp.

[MadMax]

MPgrunt81 - you need a higher compression ratio or boost to take advantage of high octane gas.

[MPgrunt81]

Ok I understand that. Thanks for anwsering my question without some sarcastic remark.

[todaCspec]

if previous honda(b16a) and acura(b18c) models required using 93 octane,why not in k20a3? the manual recomends 5w-20 oil ,yet people are all using 5w-30. can you even go w/what the manual recomends? the 02 si brochure says we've got high compression in our motors,so why 87? is this more of an environmental thing?
what about about adding intake,header,and exhaust? then should you run 93 octane or at least 89? i guess only time will tell.

[MadMax]

if previous honda(b16a) and acura(b18c) models required using 93 octane,why not in k20a3?

Didnt usdm b16a and b18c require 91? I dont know of any engines that require 93 stock.
As for why, its all about compression ratio. k20a3's c/r, being less than 10:1 is relatively low. the k20a2's c/r is 11:1 and it requires 91. toyota's celica gt-s engine is 11.5:1 i think and it also requires 91.


the manual recomends 5w-20 oil ,yet people are all using 5w-30. can you even go w/what the manual recomends?

Im going with 5w-20. If you ignore what honda tells you about their own engines because you think you know better, you do so at your own risk.


what about about adding intake,header,and exhaust? then should you run 93 octane or at least 89? i guess only time will tell.

Or I could tell you right now :D (sorry i know theres already been plenty of smart-ass comments in this thread).
i/h/e do not change compression ratio - you should still be fine with 87.

[02blksi]

MPGRUNT thanks for seeing my side of things, and hondaman hey no hard feelings buddy its just the internet! :) . I dont lose sleep over this sorta thing LOL --joe:

WHO STILL DOESNT UNDERSTAND JUST WHAT HONDATECH's DATALOGGING PROVES? IT SURE DOESNT PROVE THAT YOU DONT MAKE MORE POWER ON HIGHER OCTANE....

ALSO YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT UNDER EXTREME CONDITIONS, VERY HOT WEATHER, NOS USE, ETC HIGHER OCTANE IS RECOMMENDED DUE TO ITS BENEFITS RESISTING DETONATION. Some people on this board run the spray and should be using high octane for added safety. TELL ME IM WRONG!

[SpeedRacer]

whatever i will keep using 89-91 octane because i notice a diffrnce i have ran on 87 one week then ran on 91 and i can feel the diffrnce so i will keep using 89-91 thanks for all the info 02blksi your the man hondatech yea you know alot but you still havn't proved that higher octane makes no diffrnce in are cars. But i have proved that higher octane does make a diffrnce by experimenting with both level octanes.

[02blksi]

wow another person that isnt blinded by hondatech's wall of canadian honda tech certificates. Thanks speedracer ! Its funny how people dont mind spending 150+ dollars on an intake and wont spend the extra XX cents for a higher octane, just in case your 87 octane is "bad LOWER oct. rating than advertised" Which would lead to detonation/pinging and therefore a loss in power. but hey im no hondatech :) --joe

[todaCspec]

i've also noticed a difference w/87 & 93octane in my sol(i/h/e). also in my girl's 97 hatch,when i was using 93,the exhaust tip was light. i decided to use 87 for three weeks/3 full tanks, the exhaust tip is alittle bit darker now. it only has an apexi cat back exhaust. so is it safe to say 93 will burn cleaner?

[MadMax]

But i have proved that higher octane does make a diffrnce by experimenting with both level octanes.

Damn!

Proven wrong by an Official RiceBoy Butt-Dyno once again!
:(

[SpeedRacer]

Originally posted by MadMax


Damn!

Proven wrong by an Official RiceBoy Butt-Dyno once again!
:(

Hey dont be a hater keep using your 87 octane just because you are a cheap bastard dosn't meen you have to talk shit. I tested 87 one week then 91 the next and i personally felt my car ran better on 91 take it how you want you fucking piece of shit i wipe my ass with your degree/certificates.

and dont you own a base model RSX why dont you go back to your RSX forum and spread your so called knowledge over thare because personally if you bought a base model RSX it proves that you are a cheap bastard ounce again so i will not take your advice on using cheap gas.

[02blksi]

:eek:

[David K.]

With all the shit talking in this thread we're losing sight of the topic.

Higher octane does not BY ITSELF produce power. Basically a gas' octane rating is it's measurement to RESIST combustion, therefore resisting detonation too. So under certain conditions 91+ octane will make no more power than 87 octane. But what 91+ octane will provide is that same level of performance when conditions change, such as temp., racing, etc. Run lower octane when it's cool out or if your just driving around. Put in the expensive stuff to go racing around. Or don't. I run 91+ all the time, not b/c I think it makes MORE power, but b/c it's damn hot in Tx. and I drive my car hard sometimes. I don't like spark retard.
I like max. performance whenever.

[02blksi]

"I don't like spark retard.
I like max. performance whenever."



AGREED !!! wow that pretty much sums everything up :) --joe

[02-sir]

I really like this forum except when it turns into a big pissing contest.

here's an interesting site:

http://theserviceadvisor.com/octane.htm

[SpeedRacer]

so is someone going to start a poll

[02blksi]

start a poll for what? ???? i dont get it i must have missed something. clue me in please. --joe

[MadMax]

SpeedRacer - maybe you should take a serious look at what you posted. You submitted your butt-dyno as "proof". And I called you a riceboy. Booo-frikin-Hooo.

[chunky]

this thread is amusing to say the least.

I'm curious about this topic myself. I don't have any conclusive answers, but I have wondered about this for some time.

the k series motors have all the ingredients required to operate on a wide range of octane gasolines. electronically controlled direct ignition & variable valve timing.

Now it's not mystery that higher octane gasoline can make more power than low octane gasoline IF the conditions are right. meaning if ignition timing is advanced, high octane fuel will make more torque, and thus more power, and low octane fuel will tend to ignite before optimum crank angle is achieved resulting in loss of power.

But the question is, does the k20 motor have the sensors to optimize ignition timing in response to what grade octane fuel is in the motor?

The ecu obviously does not know what kind of octane fuel you put in. The ecu can only react to what the sensors are reading from the combustion chambers/intake/exhaust.

The knock sensor is one possiblity, the engine would advance timing until a knock sensor reading was achieved, and then retard timing a safe margin from the point at which knock was detected. But this seems unlikely based on what hondatech as said - that the ignition timing settings are the same for regular v.s. premium gasoline.

actually, if what hondatech says is true, that the ignition timing settings are identical for 87 octane and 93 octane, then it's impossible that the motor would make more power on higher octane fuel, as to make more power from high octane fuel, a change in ignition timing would definitely be observed.

i'd like to see some validation to the claims however, datalogging from the ecu or something.

[Hondatech]

Excellent post Chunky.

Now, why do I claim that datalogging of the knock sensor activity proves that there is no power to be gained by using High-Octane gas?

Becuase there is no way the ECU knows what grade of gas is in the car. The ECU does not advance the timing until the knock sensor kicks in. The ECU has ignition maps that cover a wide range of rpm and load conditions. The various points on these maps are fixed in value, and the only adjustment ever made is when the knock sensor detects detonation, and subsequently retards the ignition timing.

So, my point being, that if there is no detonation occouring using 87 octane (shown by no knock sensor activity), then the timing is as far advanced as the ECU is going to allow it to be. Changing to 91 isn't going to change this.

As requested by Madmax, I'm going to datalog spark advance vs, RPM on both 87 and 91 octane, hopefully by this weekend.

[02blksi]

fine....

THEN explain to me how this company (original post) claimed an increase in power output by merly changing gas in MULTIPLE dyno plots. ??? They must have faked them all to try and fool us into buying higher octane, because secretly they all work for texaco .

still, though i dont see why you are so hell bent on trying to prove what this company posted is all bullshit, WHY?

and cant you see past the argument of more hrspwr. and would you agree that higher octane not only burns cleaner, but resists detonation better than reg octane, especially if you are runing spray? or running hard on a 95 deg day at the track or just beating the snot out of the car on the highway..

Then again, im sure your dataloging will be done @ idle IE a NO LOAD conditon therefore your test wont mean didly in the real world. Why dont you bring that fancy smancy datalogger here in my neck of the woods with 100 deg temps and 70% humidity, and have me beat the snot out of the car while you are playin with your logger' then see what the good ole knock sensor has to say about 87 octane .. That would convince me!!! --joe

[Hondatech]

As Madmax sugegsted, a bad tank of 89, or oxygenated gas, can easly account for the 2 horsepower difference. Not becuase of knock, or sprak control, or anything like that, just plain gas quality. I'd love to see 10 EP hatches dyno'd back to back, fed off 87, then flushed out and run with 91.


still, though i dont see why you are so hell bent on trying to prove what this company posted is all bullshit, WHY?

*Shrug* I just don't wanna see this turn into one of the all time great Internet Urban Legends. "Your EP won't get max power unless you use 91+!!"


especially if you are runing spray

Well, of course use high octane with Nitrous. And Turbocharging. And supercharging. And RSX Type S engine swaps. But we're talking about the gain of power on a stock, or close to stock (intake header, exhaust) EP K series motor.

As for running hard, on hot days, track days, your nasty local humidity, etc. from what I've seen of the engineering that has gone into K series engine control software development, they took that into account with they designed the motor.

I AM confidant, however, that when a company like Hondata cracks the K series ECU, that there is gonna be fairly big power gains to be had from running a modified ECU and 91+ octane, simply becuase of how conseratively the engine has been tuned from the factory.

[02blksi]

"I AM confidant, however, that when a company like Hondata cracks the K series ECU, that there is gonna be fairly big power gains to be had from running a modified ECU and 91+ octane, simply becuase of how conseratively the engine has been tuned from the factory."


I cant believe this BUT ..... (drum roll) IM going to have to agree with hondatech on this.. Hmmm Maybe all that honda tech training is good afterall LOL jk -- just breaking your almond joys -- joe :)

[Hondatech]

Heh.

Anyway, lets put this senseless bickering behind us and get on with being a good community of EP owners. I promise to try to be less, uhhhh, "enthusiastic" about my views based on what I know.

I'm still gonna datalog those spark advance runs.... too bad there aren't any ephatch.com people on Vancouver Island It'd be nice to have a witness to make it more offical...

[HondaMan]

Cool, I'll run 87-89 octane for going to work and such but when I hit the drag strip, start autoX, racing and/or running NOS I'll run 92+ octane. That's maybe the best compromise for octane usage under certain driving conditions. ;)

[HondaMan]

Originally posted by Hondatech
Heh.

Anyway, lets put this senseless bickering behind us and get on with being a good community of EP owners. I promise to try to be less, uhhhh, "enthusiastic" about my views based on what I know.

I'm still gonna datalog those spark advance runs.... too bad there aren't any ephatch.com people on Vancouver Island It'd be nice to have a witness to make it more offical...

I can drive up there! ;)

[2k2civicSi]

http://www.lamer.net/arguing.jpg

[Hondatech]

I was waiting for that picture to get to this thread :p

[2k2civicSi]

that pic was made for this thread if you ask me

[MPgrunt81]

Actually I think this is a good thread. There's alot of knowledge that can be learned from a thread like this. I am not the most learned individual about cars so when a subject like this is discussed to such a degree someone like me learns alot. Thanks.

[iR-VTEC2]

ok cool.


What happens when you introduce variable compression.

( no lamers please, saab already did it and it will be come a reality )

[chunky]

Originally posted by Hondatech
Excellent post Chunky.

Now, why do I claim that datalogging of the knock sensor activity proves that there is no power to be gained by using High-Octane gas?

Becuase there is no way the ECU knows what grade of gas is in the car. The ECU does not advance the timing until the knock sensor kicks in. The ECU has ignition maps that cover a wide range of rpm and load conditions. The various points on these maps are fixed in value, and the only adjustment ever made is when the knock sensor detects detonation, and subsequently retards the ignition timing.

So, my point being, that if there is no detonation occouring using 87 octane (shown by no knock sensor activity), then the timing is as far advanced as the ECU is going to allow it to be. Changing to 91 isn't going to change this.

As requested by Madmax, I'm going to datalog spark advance vs, RPM on both 87 and 91 octane, hopefully by this weekend.

so wait, have you actually observed spark timing settings as being identical for 87 & 91+? or are you just assuming that they were the same b/c the knock sensor did not send any signals to the ECU?

While it is true that on all previous honda motors the knock sensor is what triggers changes in ignition timing, that may not be the case for the k series motors. It is quite possible that the new ecu's are capable of optimising ignition timing independently of the knock sensor, but there isn't enough info out on the k motors to really know for sure yet.

All I know is that when I had my car dyno tested to obtain a baseline number, the a/f plot was all over the place, definitely the wieredst air/fuel i've ever seen - this is most likely due to the fact that the k series motors are actually calculating engine operation parameters in realtime as opposed to preset maps as is the case on all previous ECU's. From dyno run to dyno run, my a/f plots showed quite a bit more inconsistency than was the case with any b-series i've observed on the dyno.

but like I said, we won't know anything for sure until more info is out on the new ECUs

[MadMax]

It is quite possible that the new ecu's are capable of optimising ignition timing independently of the knock sensor, but there isn't enough info out on the k motors to really know for sure yet.

exactly. Thanks, chunky for bringing this up. Hopefully this thread will actually go somewhere!


All I know is that when I had my car dyno tested to obtain a baseline number, the a/f plot was all over the place, definitely the wieredst air/fuel i've ever seen - this is most likely due to the fact that the k series motors are actually calculating engine operation parameters in realtime as opposed to preset maps as is the case on all previous ECU's. From dyno run to dyno run, my a/f plots showed quite a bit more inconsistency than was the case with any b-series i've observed on the dyno.

Really? wow. I wish honda would just come out and tell us stuff like this.
Of course it could be that the mapping is just more complex than previous engines right? That could lead to the same result? The B-series engine wasnt continously altering its cam angle tho either.

[Hondatech]

While it is true that on all previous honda motors the knock sensor is what triggers changes in ignition timing, that may not be the case for the k series motors. It is quite possible that the new ecu's are capable of optimising ignition timing independently of the knock sensor, but there isn't enough info out on the k motors to really know for sure yet.

We learned this at Honda Canada training on the K series motors. The engine system doesn't use any type of adaptive logic or similar system for fuel or ignition. It still uses fixed map values. The map is much, much more comprehensive then earlier engine software (way more "points" on the map), but it's still fixed values.

Interesting K series fact: Our cars don't use an EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) valve like some other cars do. Normally, an EGR valve allows some exhaust gasses back into the intake to be burned along with the fresh air and fuel. Helps reduce emmisions. On the K series, the variable cam timing system is used to create an "EGR Effect" whereby it uses intake vacuum pulses to keep some exhaust gasses in the cylinder to accomplish the same task as an EGR, but without the need for the extra plumbing. More efficent, costs less to build. Honestly not a great discription, but I'll bring the training document home and post up the full details.

[chunky]

Originally posted by Hondatech


We learned this at Honda Canada training on the K series motors. The engine system doesn't use any type of adaptive logic or similar system for fuel or ignition. It still uses fixed map values. The map is much, much more comprehensive then earlier engine software (way more "points" on the map), but it's still fixed values.

Interesting K series fact: Our cars don't use an EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) valve like some other cars do. Normally, an EGR valve allows some exhaust gasses back into the intake to be burned along with the fresh air and fuel. Helps reduce emmisions. On the K series, the variable cam timing system is used to create an "EGR Effect" whereby it uses intake vacuum pulses to keep some exhaust gasses in the cylinder to accomplish the same task as an EGR, but without the need for the extra plumbing. More efficent, costs less to build. Honestly not a great discription, but I'll bring the training document home and post up the full details.

so it still uses fixed map values, but more detailed maps (as madmax hinted at). but how much can the ECU tweak those map values?

I've read that the variable timing control allows up to 50 degrees of intake cam phase adjustment. How the hell does the ecu determine optimum intake cam phase? is there an rpm/load dependent map for that?

i'm really curious about all of that sort of info so anything you could post up would be much appreciated.

I've read about the egr-less exhaust gas recycling before as well, but what I wonder is, does it still do this at WOT? b/c it seems to me like what they are doing is creating purposeful reversion of the exhaust flow which is NOT desireable for performance.

[Hondatech]

I'll bring home the K series i-VTEC training stuff and try to post up an overview of system operation and as much detail as I can.

[nikkotyper]

This is a very interesting thread.
My fellow ephatch members know what they are talking about.

However, here is one experiment that no one suggested (I am not sure it would even work but it decreases the number of variables).

1) Somebody with an access to dyno should put 87 in in their tank.
2) Do 2 dyno runs and average the results
3) Then add an octane booster and do another 2 dyno runs averaging the results
4) Then add some more and another 2 runs averaging the results.

Alltogether, that should not run over an hour ($70) and we can see the results...

Pros of this expr:
1) # of vars decreased.
2) Fast. No need to flush gas.

Con of this expr:
1) I am not sure it is good to add any additives to our cars, but on one occassion it might be OK.

What do you think?

[MadMax]

Hondatech - while we're on the topic of ecu, could you find out if there are any software updates for the K20 engines yet? It sounds like this might be important with such sophisticated mapping.

[chunky]

Originally posted by nikkotyper
This is a very interesting thread.
My fellow ephatch members know what they are talking about.

However, here is one experiment that no one suggested (I am not sure it would even work but it decreases the number of variables).

1) Somebody with an access to dyno should put 87 in in their tank.
2) Do 2 dyno runs and average the results
3) Then add an octane booster and do another 2 dyno runs averaging the results
4) Then add some more and another 2 runs averaging the results.

Alltogether, that should not run over an hour ($70) and we can see the results...

Pros of this expr:
1) # of vars decreased.
2) Fast. No need to flush gas.

Con of this expr:
1) I am not sure it is good to add any additives to our cars, but on one occassion it might be OK.

What do you think?

the only problem I see with that is the ECU may take longer than 2 dyno runs to make sufficent changes in timing to benefit from the higher octane.

it would be better to take two civic si's, and have them both baseline dyno'd on the same day (baseline = average the 3 most consistent runs out of 5). Then consistently run one on 87 octane, and another on 93 octane for two weeks, and then dyno test both cars on the same day. if the one that was bumped to 93 octane shows greater gains than the car that's running on 87, then you can conclude that the k series motor benefits from higher octane fuel.

[todaCspec]

while your're at it,you should test 5w-20 versus 5w-30 oil. there was an article in ImportTuner where they did some dyno runs w/their project 92-95 civic EX coupe(i/h/e). they just performed a tune-up and put 10W-30,it robbed about 2hp. they immediatley change the oil back to 5W-30 and 2hp were gained back.

[David K.]

I've been running 5w-30 in Mobil 1 in my car for about 6K miles. Seems to do fine; haven't dynoed it though.