6 Speed - Installed

[cpu519]

** If pics don't show up, you may have to right click the red x and choose "Show Picture", or wait a bit and then try right clicking again :winkm: **


I've had my 6 speed installed for about 3 weeks now, it definitely improves the performance of the Si. Acceleration is better, it wakes up the performance of this car. You end up spending more time in the upper rpm range. What it also does is reveal the low redline of the engine, the A3 needs a higher redline because it's so willing to rev. Because I couldn't work on the swap non-stop from beginning to end, it took me a few weekends and long weeknights to finish it. I was also finishing up my 5 lug swap (http://ephatch.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14673&perpage=15&pagenumber=1) at the same time. Here's some basics of the swap. It's a complete bolt on, remove and replace. Simple in concept, only very labor intensive. To begin, everything has to come off from above and below the engine.


http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wMzY3MjE2NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

[cpu519]

If you're squeamish, turn away now! The subframe has to come off after making reference marks. I'm going to have the subframe aligned with the chassis once I know I won't be removing it again.

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wMzY3MjE3NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

[cpu519]

I don't have any more pics of the actual bolt-in, I was working at 1:00 am. Here's the only visual difference of the Type S trans, the reverse lock out solenoid. The Si doesn't have this so there's nothing to connect here, doesn't harm anything leaving it disconnected.

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wMzY3MjE4NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

[cpu519]

Once everything is bolted up and connected, the shifter mechanism has to modified. Here's a pic of the shifter lever that has to come out in order to shave it down. It's the lever on the right. There's a shaft going through the center of the spring. The lever is held on with a one-way spring washer on the end of the shaft. I used a tiny dremel cut off wheel to cut a slit in the washer, that loosened it so I could take it apart. The alternative is to take apart the dash.

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wMzY3MjE5NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

[cpu519]

Once I got the spring washer off, the lever comes off by pushing the shaft through enough to clear the lever. Here's what the lever looks like before shaving it. The hump on the bottom needs to be clearanced.

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wMzY3MjIwNnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

[cpu519]

Here's the lever after shaving it. The reason it needs to be shaved is that 6th gear now takes the place where reverse used to be and the shift lever doesn't move far enough downward to engage reverse. The lever hits the shifter frame. I experimented with how much needs to be removed, this amount will allow full reverse engagement.

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wMzY3MjI4NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

[cpu519]

I was able to reuse the spring washer to hold the lever in place. Honda doesn't sell the part separately so I'm currently looking for one at hardware supply companies like McMaster-Carr. Once the shifter is done, that's pretty much it. It's a very involved swap, I would say it would have taken me about 10 -12 hours to do the swap non-stop. I had to use an engine hoist to hold the motor up. Once the motor was up it was placed on blocks. Then I used the hoist to install the tranny.

If you've ever installed a trans before, you know to be careful not to allow the trans to rest with the input shaft inserted into the clutch. If that happens, the clutch disc might bend and then it won't disengage properly. That isn't that much of a concern here because the input shaft is very short, you pretty much have to align the bellhousing with the engine instead of using the input shaft to center things up.

I was going to install a Type S OEM clutch and flywheel, but I found that the Si uses the same flywheel. I thought the Type S would have a lighter flywheel. I did find the Type S pressure plate was about 1/2 pound lighter, but I didn't use it because it was doweled to the flywheel for balancing purposes. I ended up using my original clutch and flywheel. With only 6700 miles, it was still like new.

[!@#$%]

that is some really useful information. Nobody has yet to actually pictorially describe what the hell shaving the shift mech was. thanks. I understand one more step to swapping the k20a2 myself. :)

[cpu519]

I would have to say the shifter mod is the part that really required me to think hard. I searched the web and looked at Sport Compact Car magazine's swap article and couldn't get a clear understanding of what had to be modded. But once I had everything together I saw what needed to be done. It took some work getting the shift lever out. Be careful taking the shift boot dash cover out, the clips at the top right and left hold it in there very securely. I popped out the top right and found out how it was held. Then I used a small screwdriver wrapped in tape to carefully pry out the top left. After the cover was out, I looked carefully at it and found a hairline crack in the top right. Be careful!

[hondafiend02]

you are my idle!

[mrfixit687]

idle? wtf

[CgSi]

I vote for a spelling/grammar checker !







THE ALL NEW AMERICAN IDLE !



Sunday @ 9:00pm


Don't miss it !

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by cpu519
I would have to say the shifter mod is the part that really required me to think hard. I searched the web and looked at Sport Compact Car magazine's swap article and couldn't get a clear understanding of what had to be modded. But once I had everything together I saw what needed to be done. It took some work getting the shift lever out. Be careful taking the shift boot dash cover out, the clips at the top right and left hold it in there very securely. I popped out the top right and found out how it was held. Then I used a small screwdriver wrapped in tape to carefully pry out the top left. After the cover was out, I looked carefully at it and found a hairline crack in the top right. Be careful!
yeah, I've always been confused, until now with that pic. Great job man!

[9092002SI]

hey where in so cal you from?

[myeverlovinsir]

Great Post! Thanks for the info and putting up the pics of the shaved shifter. Have you had a chance to take it to the track yet?
Wonder how it will fair in 1/4 now?:)

[Gasp23]

Nice write up man! Do you plan to do the K20A2 swap later? or just keep it that way?

I plan to do the K20A2 swap later but I want to keep our 5 speed, oh well that's something I'll decide when I do the swap.

[2k2_nbp_egg]

Did you swap out the 4.7 final drive from your si into the type s tranny before you did the swap? I was contemplating this, but was wondering how hard it would be to crack the tranny open and start switching out final drives. I know that in itself would be good for a few tenths of a second in the quarter, and i'm never gonna take my car up to above 130+ where the more aggressive final drive would take away from my top speed. Also, did you look into any LSD units?

p.s. how much did you pay for the tranny alone? Sorry for all the questions :p

[cpu519]

I've never been to the dragstrip with any car. I'd like to get into it, how about a track meet for So Cal folks?

I thought about the A2 swap, and also about installing the A2 head with Type R pistons and cams. Then all you would need it seems is the Hondata Type R flash. I would also have the engine balanced so it'll live better at the higher rpms. I think the A3 internals would be fine for any street use. But a swap would approach or equal the cost of a turbo. A smog legal turbo makes sense to me now, more power than a Type R and more streetable than a NA motor of the same power

I don't think the A2 would function well with the 5 speed. It makes high rpm power, you'll need the 6 speed to keep it in its power range.

The trans is stock. I casually checked prices of diff units, the Type R goes for around $500-$600. That's close to the price of a Quaife. A few Clubrsx members have installed the parts themselves, it seems doable. It's just a big job taking the trans out. I did find that the Si final drive is the same as the Type R, both have the same 4.764:1 ratio. But the Si part costs about $125 compared to the Type R at $400-$500.

Thanks for your comments. I'm trying to make the Si the way Honda should built it, on a reasonable budget. I'll keep posting what I find out!

[chunky]

if you lifted the tranny out, was the crossmember removal really necessary?

[cpu519]

Originally posted by chunky
if you lifted the tranny out, was the crossmember removal really necessary?

There's no room to remove the trans out from the top, you'd have to remove the engine/trans as a unit.

[kenis138]

In addition to McMaster-Carr, theres also a company called Hardware Specialties that makes all kinds of shit like that, just FYI

[SFla02si]

Also another company that sells hardware is Grainger

[TezGari]

How exactly is the performance? In comparison to the origional 5spd? How do the RPMS react? Also an important question, is your mileage improving, will it, due to the 6gear? I think it will, i wish i had a 6spd, i hate doing about 4-5K rpms on the highway in 5th gear....Also max speed? And shifting points compared to (mph/RPm) 5spd...

Sorry for the dumb questions..Just really curious!;)

Thanks

[EP3_DC5]

Good work man!!! Very informative.
How does the 6 feel in the EP?
I wish my gf's Si had my 6 in it, and my engine in it as well. hehe

[KraziMikeSi5]

how much would this cost to be done on my car?:p

[hondafiend02]

sorry bout the spelling man lol i havnt really been writing or typing alot lately basically cought up in work really bad. im alwayz in a rush up in here i work in a warehouse preety cool job but always in a hurry ------was just trying to complement you on the job;) never seen that yet -thats all

[thaipinoy1]

Sup Rod? Any chance you can make it down to the OC meet tomorrow night? I'll buy you a burger mang!!;) Just give me a ride in your car..hehe:p

[cpu519]

Hey Sonny man! How come I never know when these meets go down? Is it because I never read the California forum? I'm always in the tech sections and never find out when the meets are scheduled until after they're over or when I had plans already.

[thaipinoy1]

yeah yeah....good excuse Rod.:confused: Man, try to make it tomorrow night at 6. Call me if you have any questions..714-606-3024.

SoCal Meet at Bravo Burger 7/26 for HondaMan!! (http://ephatch.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18079)

[blueiedgod]

Great swap, I have one question though, what are you RPMs at 60 and 80 mph in 6th gear? Personally, the only reason I would like to have 6th gear is for highway cruising at more sensible RPMs. 4000 RPMs at 80 mph gets annoying after a couple hours of driving, and kills your gas mileage. I think poested before that I was not getting above 25 mph, well, after I changed the oil I am getting 28 mph average for 600 miles weekly commute. That is commuting from CT to NJ 60 miles one way with some highway (80-90 mph) and some stop and go (0-20 mph), and some city (0-5-0-5-0-5 mph).
Thanks
Dave

[ssvr6]

BTW - This is now imortalized on my site.

http://www.k-series.com/tech_detail.php?Tech_ID=EP_6SPD_DIY

Again, great work man!


Steve

[cpu519]

Here's the rpms when running at 65 mph in 6th - 3rd gear.

6th 3000
5th 3700
4th 4700
3rd 6400

I don't remember what the rpms were with the 5 speed.

Check out this post (http://ephatch.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11053&perpage=15&highlight=axle&pagenumber=1). BarracksSi and Burgh put some really informative info up about the ratios between the 5 and 6 speed. What Burgh found was the Type S has overall higher gearing in each gear except for 1st and 6th, that means you'll be running at higher rpms in 2nd to 5th. Sixth gear is lower overall than 5th in the Si, so that should benefit cruising. :)

[TheWevel]

Originally posted by ssvr6
BTW - This is now imortalized on my site.

http://www.k-series.com/tech_detail.php?Tech_ID=EP_6SPD_DIY

Again, great work man!


Steve

Could you possibly credit him somewhere in that write up?


Also, cpu...how did you get the tranny for $550 bucks? If it's that cheap, I'd be super willing to do the swap. I do a lot of commuting and like others have stated, 80 at 5k rpm sucks.

[TezGari]

Originally posted by TheWevel


Could you possibly credit him somewhere in that write up?


Also, cpu...how did you get the tranny for $550 bucks? If it's that cheap, I'd be super willing to do the swap. I do a lot of commuting and like others have stated, 80 at 5k rpm sucks.

I agree, darn MPH: RPM ratio sucks....On the highway u have to speed alotta times to get outta slow lanes/ over take etc....And sometimes i touch 85+ mph, and my RPMS are very high...A 6th gear would help out alot!

[cpu519]

Another member here got a trans on Ebay for $450, there seems to more and more better deals out there. RSX owners who install the Type R tranny really are trying to just get rid of their old parts, not trying to make a buck like a wrecking yard would. Check Ebay and clubrsx.com or other rsx forums. One thing to be aware of is the early models had syncro problems and owners complained of grinding gears. Acura released a service bulletin that advised replacing a number of parts. Affected vehicles were in a certain VIN number range, but some cars made after the range still had problems.

[jandetuning]

Originally posted by cpu519
Another member here got a trans on Ebay for $450, there seems to more and more better deals out there. RSX owners who install the Type R tranny really are trying to just get rid of their old parts, not trying to make a buck like a wrecking yard would. Check Ebay and clubrsx.com or other rsx forums. One thing to be aware of is the early models had syncro problems and owners complained of grinding gears. Acura released a service bulletin that advised replacing a number of parts. Affected vehicles were in a certain VIN number range, but some cars made after the range still had problems.

I am the one that purchased the 6 speed for $450 on eBay. I have been watching for one for about two months now, and one day I happened to find one with a $450 "buy it now". I think I got lucky because I bet the bidding would have gone much higher. The only thing I can recommend is watch eBay regularly, and check Club RSX (http://www.clubrsx.com) on a regular basis. Purchasing a tranny from a private source is better in my opinion. I was able to ask the owner about problems with the unit and I have a record of the actual mileage. The synchro issue with the 6 speed is valid, and occurs at about the same rate as our 5 speed synchro problems.

[HondaMan]

Nice tranny swap...I would have been great to see it tonight at the SoCal meet! Good job!

[HondaMan]

Originally posted by 9092002SI
hey where in so cal you from?

Hey, do you drive a black EP or is it silver (like in your avatar)? I saw a nice black EP in Chino Hills this past week. I will be in Diamond Bar all this coming week at the Best Western there.

[cpu519]

Sorry HondaMan, weekends are pretty busy for me. I want to check out everyone's ride also. My car is silver, Satin Silver Metallic. I hope to be at the next meet at the Block, my wife can hang out at the mall while I shoot the breeze.

[BarracksSi]

Originally posted by cpu519
What Burgh found was the Type S has overall higher gearing in each gear except for 1st and 6th, that means you'll be running at higher rpms in 2nd to 5th. Sixth gear is lower overall than 5th in the Si, so that should benefit cruising. :)

That's including the Type S's final drive, though. Given the S's 6-speed tranny plus the Si's shorter final drive, the highway cruising RPM would be the same as before, and the shorter Type S's 1-5 ratios would give more pep.

At least that's what I could figure out. I still wanna save up for an entire A or A2 swap.

(what I posted in the other thread:)

For the Type-S:
Transmission
Gear Ratios
1 : 3.266:1
2 : 2.130:1
3 : 1.517:1
4 : 1.147:1
5 : 0.921:1
6 : 0.738:1
Final drive : 4.388:1

For the Si:
Gear Ratios:
1st 3.062
2nd 1.769
3rd 1.212
4th 0.921
5th 0.738
Reverse 3.583
Final Drive 4.764

[glw]

Originally posted by BarracksSi


That's including the Type S's final drive, though. Given the S's 6-speed tranny plus the Si's shorter final drive, the highway cruising RPM would be the same as before, and the shorter Type S's 1-5 ratios would give more pep.

At least that's what I could figure out. I still wanna save up for an entire A or A2 swap.

(what I posted in the other thread:)

For the Type-S:
Transmission
Gear Ratios
1 : 3.266:1
2 : 2.130:1
3 : 1.517:1
4 : 1.147:1
5 : 0.921:1
6 : 0.738:1
Final drive : 4.388:1

For the Si:
Gear Ratios:
1st 3.062
2nd 1.769
3rd 1.212
4th 0.921
5th 0.738
Reverse 3.583
Final Drive 4.764 based on barracks' gear numbers and stock tire/wheel combo, the si 80mph rpm should be about 4000 where the type s should be about 3685 (both have same top gear ratio so the final drive is the diff).

i wonder what putting the type s final drive gear into the si 5 speed would do to our torque?

theoretically, it would drop the 80 mph rpm to 3685 and increase top speed by 10mph (to around 130). maybe it would be worth it instead of having to keep shifting the 6 speed all the time...

[jandetuning]

Originally posted by glw
based on barracks' gear numbers and stock tire/wheel combo, the si 80mph rpm should be about 4000 where the type s should be about 3685 (both have same top gear ratio so the final drive is the diff).

i wonder what putting the type s final drive gear into the si 5 speed would do to our torque?

theoretically, it would drop the 80 mph rpm to 3685 and increase top speed by 10mph (to around 130). maybe it would be worth it instead of having to keep shifting the 6 speed all the time...

Swapping our Si final drive with the S would probably be fine with stock diameter tires. There would be a noticeable loss of pep out of the hole. I have 18" wheels on my car, so I can't afford the loss.

[golferjn]

cool setup. 6 speed si, very nice

[2k2_nbp_egg]

Putting the type S final drive into out tranny would pretty much make us a base rsx....and even though the MPG would be better and you could prolly finish the 1/4 in third, acceleration would definitely be down. Before my friend totaled his base rsx and replaced it with a type S, whenever we raced i'd always gain a car or so off the launch and end up w/ around 2 to 2.5 cars on him. The only time he jumped me i was gaining on him real fast, so I'm not quite sure thats a good idea.

[jandetuning]

Well, I started turning wrenches at 8:30 AM and by 3:15 PM I was on my first test drive with my new 6 speed tranny. I only have about 30 miles on it now, and I haven't had any freeway time yet. So far, I think it is the best mod there is for the EP outside of a turbo. The 6 speed does really wake the car up, and begs for a higher redline.

The installation went like clockwork, and everything previously posted by cpu519 about the install is 100% correct. This was the most straight-forward swap I have ever done. Honda has set a new standard for cross-platform drivetrain swaps.

I will post a review once I have a few more miles on it.

[S800Racer]

For anyone else who wants to put a 6spd in your Si. I have one for sale on ebay right now. It is an '02 with low mileage (4-5,000) and in great condition.

I have seen previous trannys sell for as much as $1,200 so I have to congratulate you guys that found deals around $500! Since mine is low mileage and in perfect shape, I have put a higher reserve on it. For the benefit of my fellow EP'ers the reserve price is $900.

[VBSI]

cpu519 my friend, you have balls the size of your head-that is some cool work and not easy to do when you are one of the first. ***bows***
I would have ended up with a broken 5 speed on the way out and a broken 6 speed on the way in for sure.

[cpu519]

Originally posted by S800Racer
For anyone else who wants to put a 6spd in your Si. I have one for sale on ebay right now. It is an '02 with low mileage (4-5,000) and in great condition.

I have seen previous trannys sell for as much as $1,200 so I have to congratulate you guys that found deals around $500! Since mine is low mileage and in perfect shape, I have put a higher reserve on it. For the benefit of my fellow EP'ers the reserve price is $900.

It seems like there are more and more trannies up for sale, I saw two more on ebay a couple days ago besides S800Racer's.

Thanks VBSI. I can't take credit on what must have been done many times before, just wanted to get the knowledge out there for the regular guys. Hey don't be afraid of taking your car apart, just take your time and pay close attention.

[jandetuning]

Originally posted by S800Racer
For anyone else who wants to put a 6spd in your Si. I have one for sale on ebay right now. It is an '02 with low mileage (4-5,000) and in great condition.

I have seen previous trannys sell for as much as $1,200 so I have to congratulate you guys that found deals around $500! Since mine is low mileage and in perfect shape, I have put a higher reserve on it. For the benefit of my fellow EP'ers the reserve price is $900.

I did get lucky. I was ready to spend $800 or so. Honestly, you could spend way more than $900 on multiple mods and not have as much of a performance benefit as the 6 speed alone. Also, if you are mechanically inclined, have access to decent tools, and a few hours to spare, it is an easy swap.


Originally posted by cpu519
It seems like there are more and more trannies up for sale, I saw two more on ebay a couple days ago besides S800Racer's.

There are two more listed right now, but it looks like a double post, and there is a bare minimum of information on the auction page. I would not be inclined to buy from that seller.

[siver-SI]

Originally posted by cpu519


I don't think the tranny will come out the top with the engine in the way. It needs to be pulled away from the engine first, then up.

If I pull the engine and trans at the same time I should not have to tear apart the bottom end right? The trans and engine sould be able to come out top in one piece right? I am thinking of doing the 6 speed upgrade when I do a turbo but since I want to do a stage II at least I am going to have to pull the engine anyways. So I am thining the trans install should be only a few hours at most with the 5 lug conversion since I am bolting up the trans while the enigne is out of the car.

[jandetuning]

Originally posted by siver-SI


If I pull the engine and trans at the same time I should not have to tear apart the bottom end right? The trans and engine sould be able to come out top in one piece right? I am thinking of doing the 6 speed upgrade when I do a turbo but since I want to do a stage II at least I am going to have to pull the engine anyways. So I am thining the trans install should be only a few hours at most with the 5 lug conversion since I am bolting up the trans while the enigne is out of the car.

I don't think it is possible to remove the complete engine and trans through the top. It would be more time consuming to strip the motor and trans of all of the accessories to remove it out the top, rather than drop it out of the bottom. Don't get intimidated by the subframe. Just make alignment marks before you unbolt it. Regardless of wether the engine comes out the top or bottom, if you remove the axles by disconnecting any suspension component, you will need a suspension alignment anyway.

[jandetuning]

Originally posted by cpu519
Can't forget this. I'm working on installing a short shifter, that's why the shift boot is off. Here's my post (http://ephatch.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17984) on that subject. The RSX knob mates perfectly with the Si boot, looks completely original.

I prefer the JDM DC5-R shift knob. The brushed stainless steel has a soft feel to it, and it fits my hand well.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid74/p6832fcdf87a4c95cba8fc098507d496d/fb66ce7e.jpg

[jandetuning]

This is what happens when you shift from 5th to 2nd. This is also why I was able to get my 6 speed trans:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid74/pbe73237d37fdadc5fb7f06146ec86703/fb66ed0e.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid74/pc3fa1412cbea78ee7aa1a107bc990f1c/fb66da14.jpg

[eurosteez]

Can someone explain the difference between Top gear ratios and final drive.
For instance: If the 5 speed and 6 speed have same top gear ratios, how can final drive be different?


once again...... I am confused

[glw]

Originally posted by eurosteez
Can someone explain the difference between Top gear ratios and final drive.
For instance: If the 5 speed and 6 speed have same top gear ratios, how can final drive be different?


once again...... I am confused final drive is not calcualted. it is a seperate gear.


heres an equation that'll get you close:

mph=(((engine rpm/gear ratio)/final drive)*60)/860


legend
=====
60 minutes per hour
860 is approximate revs per mile of the stock tire

[eurosteez]

That helps glw, by the way, I think I've seen your SI on the I-5 around Irvine. I have a stock white ep3 and live in OC

[glw]

Originally posted by eurosteez
That helps glw, by the way, I think I've seen your SI on the I-5 around Irvine. I have a stock white ep3 and live in OC probably so, i live near irvine. 5, 405, 73, 55, 241, and 133 -- i ride them all. :D

[sniperSI]

So since the gear ratios are all the same, then each gear's max MPH stay the same as the stock Si tranny?

[S800Racer]

Originally posted by sniperSI
So since the gear ratios are all the same, then each gear's max MPH stay the same as the stock Si tranny?

They are not all the same. Some of the ratios are different and the final drive is different. The net result is that 2,3,4 & 5 are 12% shorter in the 6 speed tranny. So 2 through 5 will have a lower max MPH and better acceleration than the 5 speed with a very tall 6th gear for highway cruising.

[sniperSI]

well i guess if you get the 6 speed you should shell out the extra cash for the hondata