Could Hondata cause valve float?

[kenis138]

Ok guys, this question is quickly becoming the site's new "CAI/hydrolock" discussion. Could someone with a REAL working knowledge of engines explain the real risks involved with Hondata in terms of floating a valve or any other type of damage. If you dont know what you are talking about, feel free to sit back and listen to those who do. Tks!

--k

[DjMacAtack]

first thing i have to say is valve float doesnt mean any kind of damage. it just means that at higher revs the valve springs arent strong enough to push the valve back into place in time for the next cycle.

even the hondata site mentions the need for stiffer valve springs for revving higher without loss of power due to valve spring float.

i dont know too much about cars but this is what ive always read. some1 please confirn or shoot down my assumption

[DynaSpeed]

In other words, you're asking if Hondata on an Ep3 with the 7700 rpm limiter can float a valve? I would assume that the answer would be no. At least I hope not.... I'm relying on the valve springs to be strong enough to handle the 7700 rpms without ever cause to float.
Question: Do we have the same springs as the A2? The A2 has been able to handle what seems to be 9k without problems of float (even though other problems have arisen).

Off Topic: Did you know that there is such things as "Controlled Valve Float"? Sounds scary, huh? Some race engines are designed to actually "jump" the valve off the lobe to land safely on the cam in a safe spot.

[2k2ep]

I can see how it might if the springs aren't strong enough. Even if we use the type-s springs I'd bet the type-s valves are lighter and can move faster still. I dont think the extra rpms of hondata are too bad unless you run boost or N20.

[EKthenEPnow]

Think of this!!!!!!!!!!

Honda limits our engines to 6750, 7000rpm (whatever the hell the fuel cutoff is) , not because they will detonate if driven 800rpms over that level, but because it is the best "compromise" between power and longevity.

Q- Does milk turn to solid waste the day after the Expiry date?

A= NO!!!!!!!!!!!


Q- Will our valves float like a mofo and cause some serious Grief in the combustion chamber immediately past the factory Rev-Limit

A= NO!!!!!!!!!

But having said this, keep in mind that just as with Milk that you drink past the Expiry date, you should watch / be careful / and practice common sense

-Milk 2, 3 maybe 4 days after expiry = OKAY
-Milk 10 days past expiry = THE SICKNESS

-Factory Valvetrain taken to 7700rpm ,every other day = Not Bad
-Factory Valvetrain taken to 7700rpm(or higher) Every day, in every gear, = Not so Bright!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A valve spring like any other spring or anything for that matter that is put under constant COMPRESSION will eventually fatique

If you only drove your HONDATA above 7000rpm once a month you might never have probs

If you drove your HONDATA above 7000rpm all damn day, every day you will experience probs more quickly

(its simple facts of metallurgy)

Its all Common sense

Just use your head

[Zero Three Si]

ThSi.....oopps typo....THIS guy is a genius

[EKthenEPnow]

Originally posted by Zero Three Si
ThSi.....oopps typo....THIS guy is a genius


:mad: :mad: :mad:

I've been criticised in the past for "speaking above the heads of most members"

So I tried to break it down for people.

In both my examples (Milk & Hondata) people are afraid of the unknown, and in both examples you can go a little over what is specified!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TomR123]

Considering valve springs are already under pressure when your car is just sitting, I dont think your arguement is too valid. If running your engine at 7700 or whatever for 10 seconds should cause as much valve float as running it at 10 minutes. I would also like to point out that most cars go their whole life without their valve springs "wearing out"

[JSIR]

in early testing Shawn Church said they were taking the k20a3 up to 8000 or 8200 rpms if I remember correctly without problems. Thus 7800 seems to be safe so far, a few guys have put over 10,000 on their Hondata modified setups without any reported problems. So if they don't float now they won't float later on either.

Last time I peaked in our intake ports the valves seemed to be backcut a bit where the stems protruded into the port. Much like the ITR intake valves on the b-series engines. I'd hazard a guess that our intake valves might be fairly light, even perhaps the same as the RSX-S. That would explain the ease with which this engine revs up to those rpms. perhaps the roller rockers and cam profile help as well.

These k20 engines also have some pretty solid bottom ends judging by the design of the lower parts, pretty beefy bottom end support.

Joey

[!@#$%]

the physique of the k20 is just too similar to the k20a2. I see no problem revving to 7700. Just don't misshift while doing it and you should be just fine. IF I ever get hondata, I would only push the revs cosistently at the track anyway. (not counting the first day of arrival) Either way you look at it, stiffer valve springs is good insurance.

Milk analogy is a good one.

Used cars dont NEED full coverage, and things usually go just fine with liability.....until you screw up and wreck. THEN, you're jacked.

[kenis138]

great feedback guys, and dont worry Will, I enjoyed the Milk analogy ;)

[IceD out N CALI]

so far no problems with hondadata jacking up anybodies engines so far (at least here on ephatch) which is good:)

[myeverlovinsir]

I concure, no valve float. Nor any kind of weakening of the valve
spring to cause valve float with the added rpms. Besides that,
it would be very noticable to have a floating valve, especially
in the higher rpms. I would be inclined to thing that the only way
you would see a floating valve would be if you did in fact do
some damage to the valve spring. Not something I am familiar with
and have been running hondata from the get go!;)

[EP3_DC5]

It is just purely speculation that Hondata has caused any kind of damage to anyone's engines. The K20A2 safely spins to 9K WITHOUT experiencing valve float. The K20A3 safely spins to around 8K without experiencing valve float. THERE IS NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT!!! If you misshift however, that's a whole different story. TONS of people on ClubRSX have misshifted with horrendous results, one of the worst being a 16K RPM slaughter. Pistons through the block, valves, rods, pieces of crank in the oilpan, etc etc..... Go serarch it, there were some detailed, gruesome pictures.
Now quit yer BSing that Hondata causes Valve Float. If your engine experiences valve float even once, it will considerably weaken the valve springs. So the next time this happens, the integrity of the springs is decreased, therefore running a higher risk of a valve coming into contact with a piston and bending.....therefore causing a catastrophic failure. A raised rev-limit will NOT induce valve float. Over-revving due to misshift WILL cause it.

[jo3y]

Ive done research on older domestic engines but i am sure the same principles apply to honda engines. Floating your valetrain can and will do serious damage to your engine. The term 'float' refers to your camshaft spinning so fast that the valvesprings do not have time to fully close the valve before the cam lobe is back again opening it back up. Due to its 4 cycle setup the valve train spins at half the speed as the crank and therefore if your floating your valvetrain when even one cylinder is on its exaust stroke you are going to be pushing burnt gas out your exaust and into your intake or even worse if your floating on a power stroke you are going to be sending the combustion explosion through your exaust and intake. Like i said i am speaking from my expierence from older engines as i have witnessed an older v8 float and blow the intake manifold almost through the hood. :angel: I dont undersand (but do enjoy) the sick pleasure of pusing an engine to it mechanical limit to see what happens :o

[CSMsi311]

Originally posted by DjMacAtack
first thing i have to say is valve float doesnt mean any kind of damage.

I disagree.

1.) if your valves float too much. They will hit the top of the piston and get bent.

2.) if your valves are floating then you are losing compression.

Whether or not, a k20a3 with a increased red line with have valve float, i don't know.

[tony speed]

Originally posted by EP3_DC5
Over-revving due to misshift WILL cause it.

So does this mean if I mis-shift without a hondata flash, my engine can still blow up?.....

[myeverlovinsir]

Originally posted by tony speed


So does this mean if I mis-shift without a hondata flash, my engine can still blow up?.....

Mishifting can blow any engine, regardless of how it's tuned.

[tkm]

Threads like these are what brings this board down.

1) Don't post ish if you don't know ish. This is actually one of the few threads the newbs have not attacked with the "hondata speculation" Most of the folks agree that Hondata = safe at 7700rpms.

2) If a friend of a friend knows something and you might have heard him say something, this still does not mean that you know ish.

3) Funny how all of the folks with Hondata (myself included) have experienced zero problems with the upped revlimit.

4) Just because you can rev to 7700rpms does not mean that you have to. The Hondata does other stuff besides up the limiter.

5) Use common sense and you'll be fine.

6) I know guys with old D series motors that redline at 6700rpms that take them to 8K every other weekend when they autox. It is ok to go over the oem limiter, and this is just one example.

7) Again, some B series chips take the redline up to 9200rpms. Does this mean that you can go there all the time? No. Every now and then--yes. However, the 7700rpm redline on the EP3 is well below the threshold of the motor and folks often visit it once a day. If a motor does not blow in the first 10K miles, then I think you'll be safe.

[SiR Medic]

Originally posted by EKthenEPnow
Think of this!!!!!!!!!!

Honda limits our engines to 6750, 7000rpm (whatever the hell the fuel cutoff is) , not because they will detonate if driven 800rpms over that level, but because it is the best "compromise" between power and longevity.

Q- Does milk turn to solid waste the day after the Expiry date?

A= NO!!!!!!!!!!!


Q- Will our valves float like a mofo and cause some serious Grief in the combustion chamber immediately past the factory Rev-Limit

A= NO!!!!!!!!!

But having said this, keep in mind that just as with Milk that you drink past the Expiry date, you should watch / be careful / and practice common sense

-Milk 2, 3 maybe 4 days after expiry = OKAY
-Milk 10 days past expiry = THE SICKNESS

-Factory Valvetrain taken to 7700rpm ,every other day = Not Bad
-Factory Valvetrain taken to 7700rpm(or higher) Every day, in every gear, = Not so Bright!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A valve spring like any other spring or anything for that matter that is put under constant COMPRESSION will eventually fatique

If you only drove your HONDATA above 7000rpm once a month you might never have probs

If you drove your HONDATA above 7000rpm all damn day, every day you will experience probs more quickly

(its simple facts of metallurgy)

Its all Common sense

Just use your head

As good as the "milk analogy" is... It IS flawed.

Why?

Bacteria replicate exponentially, not doubling themselves with every reproduction but squaring themselves.

To break it down, a say (for simplicity's sake) a carton of milk has 1 bacteria cell in it the day you bring it home from the store. That bacteria reproduces at a rate of once every day. (actual bacteria replicate MUCH faster) That milk expires in 10 days.

On the second day you have 2 bacteria in the milk, no big woop.

On the third day each of the bacteria replicate to make 4... Again no real biggie.

On day 4, those bacteria double to make 8

On day 5, you got 16

On day 6 you got 32

On day 7, you got 64

On day 8, you got 128

On day 9, you got 256

On day 10, you now have a whopping 512 bacterial cells in your carton of milk. This is the day you are supposed to throw it out, but surely you can get one more day out of it...

On day 11, you now have 1024 little bacteria cells in you milk, all of them leaving behind toxins and making the milk sour. You have 1000 times the amount of bacteria in the milk that you started with, and in just one day, you will have 2048 of the little beasties swimming in your moo juice!



Oh yeah, about the valve float issue... Don't worry about it! Hondata WILL void your engine warrantee however, and I'd worry about that more than I'd worry about wreckin' the engine.

[van_yammer]

Originally posted by SiR Medic


As good as the "milk analogy" is... It IS flawed.

Why?

Bacteria replicate exponentially, not doubling themselves with every reproduction but squaring themselves.

On day 11, you now have 1024 little bacteria cells in you milk, all of them leaving behind toxins and making the milk sour. You have 1000 times the amount of bacteria in the milk that you started with, and in just one day, you will have 2048 of the little beasties swimming in your moo juice!




You forget to square.

[kenis138]

Originally posted by SiR Medic



Oh yeah, about the valve float issue... Don't worry about it! Hondata WILL void your engine warrantee however, and I'd worry about that more than I'd worry about wreckin' the engine.

My car is at 31k now anyway, so no big loss on the warranty.;)

Quote from tkm:
1) Don't post ish if you don't know ish. This is actually one of the few threads the newbs have not attacked with the "hondata speculation" Most of the folks agree that Hondata = safe at 7700rpms.

Heheh, read my opening post on this thread, thats whay i asked the question to those who know what they are talking about

:D