Forced in duction, NOS, mid pipes...all problems for us

[02SilverSiHB]

I was reading the recent honda tuning mag today. I didn't buy it, but I will tomorrow so I can quote directly as to what they were saying.

Basically they said that when they put a 2.25" mid pipe the car lost power throughout the entire power band. As well as 2.0 and 2 3/8 pipping. They said DC made the twin canister with 2.5" piping a certain way to make 3hp gain. Yippy, 3hp for how much? 500? I'm not paying that for something so minimal. Same went for header because the cat is to close to the downpipe. They said the stock exhaust is great, it's just that the cat comes to close to the down pipe and slows the flow too soon.

As for Forced induction (Turbo, supercharger, and N20 [for those that can't stand it when people say NOS :D ] )
they are running into problems with controlling the fuel. They (Greddy, JR, Vortech, etc.) can't put a FMU in to control the fuel management. Why? No fuel return line. So this will give us problems with forced induction....I don't want to make my new car run lean and blow the hell up like my last one.
They said company's will still find a way, but it's a whole new ball park.....no shyt!

They also said the (this is the good part) that our ECU is easy to work with for some modifcations...can't remember all what.
Only thing is, we can't mess with ignition/timing, as the ecu will "freak out and go into limp mode because it can't control the timing/ignition"

Intakes so far are the easy and most affective mod for us...no shyt again!

So it sounds like it will be quite sometime till forced induction will be good route to take.

I'm not going to jump on the band wagon as soon as they come. I'll wait and watch, or at least wait till Hondata gets the move on.

NA sounds like a better route at this time.

Comments? Hope I'm not repeating too much of what's been said already here in the forum.

[sicivic2002]

I have that magazine and don't forget the K20A2 is the basis for the article and tuning tests. There are quite a few differences between the A2 and the A3. We have more room for improvement IMO than the A2.

[ssvr6]

I'm going the NA route, but will be modifying slightly different than what most have done.

I plan on removing the cat all together or using a free flow design along with 2.25 piping to the stock box. That should be the power gain that the others are looking for. Good thing I don't live in Ca. (I love FL and the no emisson testing laws!)

I'll stay like this until I can get cams and work on my timing/ignition. That's all I'm really waiting on, in fact, that's what the tuners need to focus most on. (Like the article said.)


Steve

[X 2KS2K]

wasn't there a post out here from someone getting 18whp from an intake, header, and exhaust?

my money will be going to wheels, tires, and suspension mods until they can sort this one out

[sicivic2002]

Well in the same article DC says that with their CAI with the headers and the exhaust system they saw a 22hp gain with almost a 10hp average gain from 3000 to redline.

[Hondatech]

Check out FMax turbo kits for a useable answer to not being able to use an FMU. Their systems use additional injectors in the intake plumbing to supply the extra fuel under boost. Still not ideal, since the stock intake manifold is ment to flow air only, not an air-fuel mix. Best bet is to hold off from forced induction until proper programmable engine management comes along.

I've got the 2.25" custom mid-pipe mod, and I *THINK* she feels better in the mid range and top end, but only a Dyno will be able to tell for sure, and there won't be one around here for the next few months... I'm still planning on adding a K&N Typhoon and HP ceramic header to the mix. MiamiJDMs dyno plot looked legit, and I'm willing to throw a few hundred bucks that way.

This is the most recent Honda Tuning? I'll have to get that...

[02blksi]

"Their systems use additional injectors in the intake plumbing to supply the extra fuel under boost. Still not ideal, since the stock intake manifold is ment to flow air only, not an air-fuel mix. Best bet is to hold off from forced induction until proper programmable engine management comes along."


Bzzzzzzzt wrong answer! STICK to the octane thread where you somewhat know what you are talking about--jk:)--. Take it from me, The additional extra injector controller IS the way to go . Ever hear of SDS systems (stand alone ecu's etc full laptop interface etc? ) I used this on my turbo setup, and it worked flawlessly, i was able to adjust not only how rich/lean i wanted the mixture, but i was also able to control my injector duty cycle. All from the driver seat in my car with the turn of 2 knobs. Talk about easy, also if you talk to anyone that builds turbo (high hrpwr. cars) they simply CANT use an FMU, simple reason being that the fuel rail pressure goes through the F*ckin roof, and at those astronimcal levels unless you have a specifically desingned fuel pump you can say good bye to your motor. One more not worthy thing about fmu's they run NOTORIOUSLY RICH at idle due to the fact that they are not boost dependent like my sds system, once again simply put that meant when i wasnt boosting the SDS (simple digital systems) knew it, therefore the injectors werent injecting fuel at all times. I could go on all night, but i wont, basically if you want the el cheapo way to boost buy the FMU everyone does, but if you want to do it right, buy an MF2 or SDS injector controller YOU WONT be sorry. -joe :)

[Hondatech]

A-ha. See, now we're in an area that you have practical knowlage, and I'm all theory. I base my comments on the book "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell. Good read. This particular book advocates additional injecter controllers only up to about 8-10 pounds of boost, and anything beyond that, proper engine management. An aside, the book has a neat step-by-step at the end about designing and installing a Twin-Turbo kit on an NSX... yummy :D

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by 02blksi
"Their systems use additional injectors in the intake plumbing to supply the extra fuel under boost. Still not ideal, since the stock intake manifold is ment to flow air only, not an air-fuel mix. Best bet is to hold off from forced induction until proper programmable engine management comes along."


Bzzzzzzzt wrong answer! STICK to the octane thread where you somewhat know what you are talking about--jk:)--. Take it from me, The additional extra injector controller IS the way to go . Ever hear of SDS systems (stand alone ecu's etc full laptop interface etc? ) I used this on my turbo setup, and it worked flawlessly, i was able to adjust not only how rich/lean i wanted the mixture, but i was also able to control my injector duty cycle. All from the driver seat in my car with the turn of 2 knobs. Talk about easy, also if you talk to anyone that builds turbo (high hrpwr. cars) they simply CANT use an FMU, simple reason being that the fuel rail pressure goes through the F*ckin roof, and at those astronimcal levels unless you have a specifically desingned fuel pump you can say good bye to your motor. One more not worthy thing about fmu's they run NOTORIOUSLY RICH at idle due to the fact that they are not boost dependent like my sds system, once again simply put that meant when i wasnt boosting the SDS (simple digital systems) knew it, therefore the injectors werent injecting fuel at all times. I could go on all night, but i wont, basically if you want the el cheapo way to boost buy the FMU everyone does, but if you want to do it right, buy an MF2 or SDS injector controller YOU WONT be sorry. -joe :)

sounds good to me :D

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by sicivic2002
I have that magazine and don't forget the K20A2 is the basis for the article and tuning tests. There are quite a few differences between the A2 and the A3. We have more room for improvement IMO than the A2.
true, there are some differenced in the motors, but not to different, right? I was worried after reading that article when it comes to forced induction. I guess I shouldn't even worry about the bolt on part of the article, seeing how they were testing out the RSX engine, which I'm sure has different piping sizes than ours

[ssvr6]

SDS is the way to go when going FI. A local tuner in my area is building a big mofo 2.9L VR6T with a T70 and he just got his SDS basically tuned. Now he's off to the dyno to get the fine tuning done. His biggest thrill about the SDS was being able to control the duty cycle. Huge plus.


Steve

[David K.]

It's funny, I ran into this same fear back in 1996 when I had a Z28. OBD2 had just come out and everyone was yelling how it was the end of performance. Now those cars are no prob. to modify. I'm sure this will turn out the same. There are simply too many car enthusiasts and too much money to be made in this market not to work out these problems. And as for the piggyback injector solution to fuel enrichment, turbo buick guys have been doing that forever with great results. Of course our intakes are much different, so Hondatech has a point too. All we need to do is start lashing turbos and nitrous to our cars and learn as we go:D !!!!

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by David K.
It's funny, I ran into this same fear back in 1996 when I had a Z28. OBD2 had just come out and everyone was yelling how it was the end of performance. Now those cars are no prob. to modify. I'm sure this will turn out the same. There are simply too many car enthusiasts and too much money to be made in this market not to work out these problems. And as for the piggyback injector solution to fuel enrichment, turbo buick guys have been doing that forever with great results. Of course our intakes are much different, so Hondatech has a point too. All we need to do is start lashing turbos and nitrous to our cars and learn as we go:D !!!!
yeah, there's no way the market won't come out with some type of FI for us :D

[sicivic2002]

Well one of the big differences IMO between the A2 and A3 is the fact the vtec on the A2 adjusts not only the intake side but also the exhaust side. The A3 only adjusts the intake side. It really pisses me off that Honda would come out with the SI being the more sporty version for the civic and then make the engine tuned for fuel efficiency instead of power like that A2.

[00sir]

How can DC sports say that a 2.25 or 2.5" midpipe will lose power... BS....

They want to sell exhaust... No matter how you slice it.. You may lose low end torque, but you will not lose power making the exhaust flow better. The resonator in the exhaust will impede the flow a bit, so removing it should help... What a crock...

sorry for venting...

I am not going to buy the loudest exhaust on the planet for 3 horsepower.. I can achieve that with
a midpipe.

Take Care...

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by sicivic2002
Well one of the big differences IMO between the A2 and A3 is the fact the vtec on the A2 adjusts not only the intake side but also the exhaust side. The A3 only adjusts the intake side. It really pisses me off that Honda would come out with the SI being the more sporty version for the civic and then make the engine tuned for fuel efficiency instead of power like that A2.
yeah, I hear you. I don't understand why they did it either. :(

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by 00sir

I am not going to buy the loudest exhaust on the planet for 3 horsepower.. I can achieve that with
a midpipe.

Take Care...

Ditto :D

[David K.]

Yeah, I already ditched my stock mid pipe and resonator for a 2.25" setup and I definately noticed a gain. Not just peak power, but all over. I read that article and I noticed that comment; didn't really make sense to me either.

[ssvr6]

BTW--Here's a pic of that VR6 using SDS.


http://www.daemonsync.org/shows/08-17_Markham_Park_10th_VW_Audi_GTG/DCP_0546.jpg


Steve

[miamijdm]

will you guys stop worrying what's going to happen? Im testing new stuff on my car every freakin day.. lol.. Im thinking of going up to a 100 shot... i'll keep you guys posted... thanks...

[SpeedRacer]

Originally posted by miamijdm
will you guys stop worrying what's going to happen? Im testing new stuff on my car every freakin day.. lol.. Im thinking of going up to a 100 shot... i'll keep you guys posted... thanks...

woow i cant wait hurry up before your waranty is up :D

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by miamijdm
will you guys stop worrying what's going to happen? Im testing new stuff on my car every freakin day.. lol.. Im thinking of going up to a 100 shot... i'll keep you guys posted... thanks...
HOLY SHYT! 100!?
how to you control your fuel? In other words what kind of fuel management do you have? you're crazy by the way :D