Picking a 3" Muffler for turbo'd EP... [Archive]

esmith13

08-29-2003, 08:39 PM

What's up all...

Cybernation turbo is on the way, so now it's time to consider removing the Thermal Stealth 2.25" cat-back and going with a custom 3" setup...

Question is -- what 3" muffler to go with???

I want something that sounds like my thermal -- deep and bass filled with NO rasp. For those of you who have never heard a thermal stealth, think of a HKS cat-back that dosen't get raspy at high RPM, and just a tad more bass than a HKS too.

I'll take any suggestions on a brand and modle muffler that comes in a 3". My only preference on looks is I like the single large tip like the thermal and HKS, not the stock look like the borla and DC sports.

Also, if anyone can recommend a reputable place to get the exhaust made/installed in the Philly, PA or Southern NJ area - that would be great too.

Thanks in advance,

Eric

ADAMnQuickCIVIC

08-29-2003, 09:12 PM

Borla XR1!

esmith13

08-30-2003, 07:52 AM

O.K. - but which one???

Sportsman Oval, Sportsman Round, Shootout Series, Sprint Series, Racing Bullet, or generic round/oval ????

There's alot of XR-1 Families of mufflers......

Eric

ADAMnQuickCIVIC

08-30-2003, 07:57 AM

Originally posted by esmith13
O.K. - but which one???

Sportsman Oval, Sportsman Round, Shootout Series, Sprint Series, Racing Bullet, or generic round/oval ????

There's alot of XR-1 Families of mufflers......

Eric

This one- SPORTSMAN OVAL (http://www.borla.com/xr1.sportsman.oval.mufflers/)
:cool:

esmith13

08-30-2003, 08:05 AM

Have you heard the sound from it??

I don't want a stock sound OR a rice burning lawnmower sound either.....

I got lucky with my thermal sight unseen/unheard... I need mental support that I'll be making a good decision with a muffler.....

Eric

ADAMnQuickCIVIC

08-30-2003, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by esmith13
Have you heard the sound from it??

I don't want a stock sound OR a rice burning lawnmower sound either.....

I got lucky with my thermal sight unseen/unheard... I need mental support that I'll be making a good decision with a muffler.....

Eric

Yes, that is the muffler I had on my old turbo civic. My friend is still running it on his civic, so i know it holds up, it's been about 4 yrs since i sold it to him.

The exhaust note is very nice. Even with a straight 3" pipe and no cat/resonator the sound is sweet. It's not raspy, it's not quiet, it has a REALLY aggressive exhaust note, doesnt really sound like a 4 banger.

Trust me, you'll love it.

87gn

08-31-2003, 06:34 AM

I don't want a stock sound OR a rice burning lawnmower sound either.....

you dont need a new muffler, you need a big block.

personally if it was me i would ditch the whole exhaust. my gn sounds like a desiel half the time but there aint a exhaust out there that can out flow mine.:D

esmith13

08-31-2003, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by 87gn

you dont need a new muffler, you need a big block.

Not to sound like an ass here - but what is the minimum displacement to qualify as a big block??? Largest engine I ever had in a car was a 351 cleveland. I miss that car ('78 Grand Marquis). That time is done and over with now... On to the civic...

Thanks for the tips adam, helpful as always...

Is that the kind of muffler a shop would have, or do I need to aquire it myself and take to them???

Eric

ADAMnQuickCIVIC

08-31-2003, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by esmith13

Not to sound like an ass here - but what is the minimum displacement to qualify as a big block??? Largest engine I ever had in a car was a 351 cleveland. I miss that car ('78 Grand Marquis). That time is done and over with now... On to the civic...

Thanks for the tips adam, helpful as always...

Is that the kind of muffler a shop would have, or do I need to aquire it myself and take to them???

Eric

I doubt a muffler shop or even a perf. shop would stock that muffler...I would search eBay, or get a part # and do a google search.

BTW...I got a 472 ci sitting out in the yard, in my 70' DeVille....i think that would "qualify". I need to find a lighter car to drop it in, probably an early 80's regal, monte, cutlass or something. That things gonna haul ass w/ 525 tq / 375hp stock. :eek:

87gn

08-31-2003, 06:21 PM

Not to sound like an ass here - but what is the minimum displacement to qualify as a big block??? Largest engine I ever had in a car was a 351 cleveland. I miss that car ('78 Grand Marquis). That time is done and over with now... On to the civic...

well, being a "big block" dont really have nothing to do with the displacement. for example, a olds 403 is a small block while a pontiac 400 is a big block. usually a big block has a taller deck height, in other words in generally a big block is, well, physically bigger then a small block.

esmith13

08-31-2003, 06:28 PM

I see....

Obviously discussing "Detroit Muscle" and other similar topics are outta my league....

Thanks for the answer tho....

Eric

ssvr6

08-31-2003, 08:05 PM

87gn

08-31-2003, 10:55 PM

87GN, while I don't care if you're post here or not, try not to take over a thread with a "domestic vs import" attitude.

I'm honestly tired of hearing about your GN on this site since you offer little IMO in terms of the EP.

ive never had ANY "domestic vs import" attitude, infact if any one has that type of attitude here its you because of your statement about my gn. you have to understand, im open to ALL cars, import or domestic. i beleve that we have a great deal to learn from each other once people can open there eyes to new possabilitys.

my statement about big blocks was a joke because esmith said he wanted a "deep and bass filled with NO rasp" sound. i still dont see how this is anti import or a import vs domestics attitude, or was it just the word BIG block that set you off? could you please explain?

if you check back on some of my posts ive stated several times that im sick of people not being "open" to all cars domestic or import. infact heres a pair of direct quotes.

in my point of view car guys are all the same reglardless if they drive a domestic or import.

thats one of the things that pisses me off the most, some people are just to ignorant or dumb to open there eyes.

esmith13

08-31-2003, 11:18 PM

Guys,

I took no offense to any statements, so there's no problem here.. 87gn, were cool as far as I'm concerned...

Steve, I apprecieate you intentions to preven people from being harassed, but it's not the case here...

Please, I don't want my thread to become a boxing match... I'm lookin' for some REAL help from REAL experienced people....

Thanks,

Eric

87gn

08-31-2003, 11:59 PM

glad to hear that:D

anyhow, have you considered adding a dump? you could keep a exhaust and run open header for racing. just becarefull it gets addictive:cool:

ADAMnQuickCIVIC

09-01-2003, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by 87gn
glad to hear that:D

anyhow, have you considered adding a dump? you could keep a exhaust and run open header for racing. just becarefull it gets addictive:cool:

Header dump = check engine light, illegal on street, can only be run @ track on certain days before a certain time. If you're gonna do a dump do it right after the cat to avoid a C.E.L.

I reccomend:
3" high flow cat- $80
3" custom piping- $125
3" Borla XR1 muffler- $150

Sounds nice and will keep you, your neighbors, and track officials nice and happy.

Good Luck

esmith13

09-01-2003, 08:39 AM

Hey Adam....

There is NO cat with a Cybernation kit...

I've already made arrangements to deal with passing state inspection so I have no intention of loosing 50 ponies by adding one (Cybernation estimate).

As for a dump, I thought about those electric ones you see on the internet, but how much better will it really be since I'll have 3" piping and a muffler only without a cat already?? In a setup like that is it really worth the extra money to have one made for the car and wired into the dash (switch)???

Eric

Oh, adam -- Where do you get your pricing from?? Everything you listed was WAY lower than shops in Philly would do it for, and that muffler lists for over $170... Also, is your pricing including labor??? And which of the 3" Sportsman's do you reccomend?? One is 12" and the other is 16", or is the difference ONLY size for your car's fitment??

ADAMnQuickCIVIC

09-01-2003, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by esmith13
Hey Adam....

There is NO cat with a Cybernation kit...

I've already made arrangements to deal with passing state inspection so I have no intention of loosing 50 ponies by adding one (Cybernation estimate).

As for a dump, I thought about those electric ones you see on the internet, but how much better will it really be since I'll have 3" piping and a muffler only without a cat already?? In a setup like that is it really worth the extra money to have one made for the car and wired into the dash (switch)???

Eric

Oh, adam -- Where do you get your pricing from?? Everything you listed was WAY lower than shops in Philly would do it for, and that muffler lists for over $170... Also, is your pricing including labor??? And which of the 3" Sportsman's do you reccomend?? One is 12" and the other is 16", or is the difference ONLY size for your car's fitment??

I dunno y i was thinking you got the GReddy kit....OK so no cat...nice...cant beat that for flow...The prices i posted are what i paid for my exhaust about 4-5 years ago...prices may have gone up...As far as what size can to use, it doesnt really matter, which ever fits best.
Oh yea, forget about those electric dumps....not worth the money...and i heard they leak and break often.

CleanBlackSi02

09-01-2003, 12:11 PM

Why don't you just get a Thermal 3" muffler?

87gn

09-01-2003, 04:31 PM

Header dump = check engine light, illegal on street, can only be run @ track on certain days before a certain time. If you're gonna do a dump do it right after the cat to avoid a C.E.L.

well when i say open header its a "general term" thats just stuck with me from my short track days. if i wanted to get technical ive got a open down pipe:D

esmith13

09-01-2003, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by CleanBlackSi02
Why don't you just get a Thermal 3" muffler?

Honestly, the only reason I did not just plan on that in the first place is that I've had alot of people tell me that although thermal was great for a 2.25" cat-back, so much better could be acheived with other brand 3" universal mufflers...

Borla has been mantioned by a handfull to me now as well as magnaflow. Noone seems to recommend Thermal for a high flow muffler... Now maybe their great - but I only know what I've been told....

Are you recommending Thermal, or just asking cause I use that brand now???

Eric

CleanBlackSi02

09-01-2003, 05:31 PM

Personally, I found my Thermal exhaust obnoxious on the highway and a bit too loud for my taste. But, if you like the sound you have now, why change brands? I doubt the gains will be that much different with a 3" muffler brand to brand.

esmith13

09-01-2003, 07:28 PM

I agree, it is obnoxious on the highway... But I've found that's only INSIDE the cabin... Apparently having the resonator located directly under the passenger seat doesn't help, and it is rather loud. However in following my own car while someone else was driving it, I have found it to be nowhere near as loud outside... I hate that about the Thermal....

That aside, your right, brand for brand 3" performance should not vary much... I think I'm just ready to try something different. I gave thermal a call, and their universal 3" mufflers are competitive with Borla - even a little cheaper in some cases, but when you ask them about them they say -- well, their good for turbo applications...

...Yeah, OK -- I know THAT... Borla on the other hand seems to have put more thought into their product... And their people are a lot more helpful and willing to work with you... They KNOW their product and WHY it should be used.

That's important, IMHO.

Eric

REVwheels

09-02-2003, 01:12 PM

im running a 3" full exhaust. 3" downpipe to a 3" high flow cat. to a 3" arospeed turbo muffler. the sound isnt as bad as the magnaflow 3" muffler i had before. but no matter what you do its going to be loud.

surfsi

09-02-2003, 04:00 PM

87gn. I like your idea of a dump, but would that affect the compression? I saw my first dump on a 12 second late modle police car and thought it was bad ass. This car was all of 15' long and the dump was a few ft. after the headers. In these eps we only have a few ft. until the muffler!

esmith13

09-02-2003, 05:38 PM

OK, here's another question for all of you...

From what I understand about how a turbo works, back preassure is no longer an issue once turbo'd.

If that's true, is the entire exhaust behind the turbo merly a way to move the emissions to the rear of the vehicle, and going to 3" is just to insure no bottlenecking?? If that's the case, you should see NO performance gain from a dump, versus 3" piping and a 3" high flow muffler... Obviously were are comparing this when there is no cat involved, as it the case with cybernation...

Can someone explain this for me....
I'm in an absorbative mood ;)

Eric

87gn

09-02-2003, 05:58 PM

87gn. I like your idea of a dump, but would that affect the compression?

it wont effect the compression at all but if you have a turbo your boost will probably creap up 2 psi or so sence theres little to no back pressure.

OK, here's another question for all of you...

From what I understand about how a turbo works, back preassure is no longer an issue once turbo'd.

If that's true, is the entire exhaust behind the turbo merly a way to move the emissions to the rear of the vehicle, and going to 3" is just to insure no bottlenecking?? If that's the case, you should see NO performance gain from a dump, versus 3" piping and a 3" high flow muffler... Obviously were are comparing this when there is no cat involved, as it the case with cybernation...

Can someone explain this for me....
I'm in an absorbative mood

actually, the less back pressure the better, thats why people use 3 inch exhausts BUT that rule still applys even if you have a 3 inch exhaust. a 3 inch in my book would be a improvement but theres still restrictions in a 3 inch pipe.

to give you a example ive got a good friend that lives near me with another gn, he dont run a cat and hes got a 3.5 inch down pipe and 3 inch dual exhausts. when he unbolts his exhaust he gains 1-2 mph over his normal trap speeds.

esmith13

09-02-2003, 06:05 PM

Thanks for the info!

Now the only question that remains is, on an EP with a Stage I kit, is a 3" exhaust already elieviating all of the back preassure making a dump useless for us?? I get the point you made, but that's a big block GN.... Loads of power, loads of exhaust... Would an EP still be restricted with 3" piping enough to even consider a dump??

Eric

87gn

09-02-2003, 06:20 PM

I get the point you made, but that's a big block GN.... Loads of power, loads of exhaust... Would an EP still be restricted with 3" piping enough to even consider a dump??

well, gns are little v6s but i get the point. i was considering the displacement diffrence when i was posting the last post but i dint say nothing at the time because it would complicate things, the gn was just a example to get over the point about exhaust restriction.

for a turbo ep 3 inch is most likely more then enough but you should listen to the posts of people with turbo eps more then my examples, they have been threw the ep/turbo/exhaust bit before and they know what there talking about.

the dumps up to you, it would be more of a macho show off thing if you wanted to get one, you know, pull up next to some one at a light quite as could be then press a button and make the engine come to life:D turbo cars scare the shit out of other street racers and ww2 vetrians when they have there dumps open and the turbos spoolin:angel:

esmith13

09-02-2003, 06:27 PM

haha, that's funny!! :D

Yeah, I'll have to pass that one by Steve on "K_Series" and Adam will hopefully read it here....

The two of them have been kind enough to share their wealth of knowledge with me on many discussions in the past....

Thanks again,

Eric

** :eek: Damn, it sure took alot to get the name of steve's site to show up... DTH must REALLY be pissed.....

87gn

09-02-2003, 06:36 PM

heres some videos of the cut out inaction.

http://www.buickgn.com/cutoutclip.MPG
http://www.buickgn.com/Exhaustcutout.mpg

http://www.buickgn.com/cutoutmountedreversed2.jpg

esmith13

09-02-2003, 06:41 PM

Oh - My - Gawd!!!!

That's one scary transformation-on-the-fly!!!

Where would one aquire one of these if they were intrested???
Oh, and obviously a GOOD one that dosen't leak.....

Eric

87gn

09-02-2003, 07:21 PM

http://www.buickgn.com/electricexhaustcutout.htm

they start at 179 bucks but ive made them in the past out of exhaust pipe and my welder for about 5 bucks :D of course mine arnt electric;)

edit***

dont worrie about them leaking, those peaces are quality.