Need some advice... How competitive can the EP be on the track?

[droideka]

I'm seriously considering buying another EP and turning it into a track car. Reason? The whole hatch thing makes it super easy to cart all of my tools and a set of race rubber to the track, something I cannot do in the Z. In addition, tires are MUCH less expensive for the EP. I'm getting really sick of going through 18" S03s every 5K miles.

Barring boost or a swap, what are some realistic HP numbers I could expect from an all-motor EP? I figure that a second EP would be completely stripped from the front seats back and have a cage installed. I'm thiking right now about suspension, brakes, racing seats, harnesses and a rollcage to start. Going this route would also afford me the luxury of getting a membership at my local track and allow me to track this car as often as two to three times per month.

My biggest concern is the HP deficit the EP has on the Z that I'm used to. Lightweight, FWD cars are mainly momentum based on the track and don't rely on big HP to make their way around. Ideally I would like to be at least as fast if not faster than a lightly-modded MINI Cooper S, or a street prepped Miata.

I know, poor me having to make these kinds of decisions. :angel: What would you do in my shoes?

[Brettnyt]

I believe that the EP has incredible potential to be a track car... With minor suspension mods it can handle like a go-kart... As long as the car can handle well, you dont need CRAZY power... Pull a K24 Frankenstein head swap and you should be runnin pretty well... If everything is tuned right, you should be able to run a very healthy 200 N/A HP

[andy]

I think the EP3 is probably a pretty good track car (check out the
ep3 touring cars in one of the latest issues of Honda Tuning).
However, if you just like the hatch-ability, why not go for an older
model Civic? The main reason I saw that is because of the weight
savings - the Si, while not a heavyweight, is heavier than its'
older counterparts.

As far as engine goes, with the K20A3, I think the best you could
do is probably 180-190 n/a...and that's an optimistic estimate. You
can probably do better once we get cams and some other necessary
n/a engine mods. If you swap a K20A2 in, or just the A2 head, you'll
be looking at 200hp no problem. Or, as Brett mentioned, you could
go the K24 route as well.

Hope some of that makes sense. I am still way too hungover - man, I
think I love Mexico. ;)

[bao_pay]

You guys make it sound so easy to swap the heads in these cars... they aren't B-series motors... the ecu makes things so hard for us... so for the k24 frakenstein and then k20a2 head swap isn't that out of the question for us or am I just being ignorant not knowing anything?

[Peking]

Originally posted by bao_pay
You guys make it sound so easy to swap the heads in these cars... they aren't B-series motors... the ecu makes things so hard for us... so for the k24 frakenstein and then k20a2 head swap isn't that out of the question for us or am I just being ignorant not knowing anything?

The ecu might seem to be difficult now, but things will change. Head swap just needs Hondata with stock ecu, or you could roll with a Type-S ecu and tune.

[02TafWhtSi]

I'll admit that a Cooper S is far more "track ready" in stock form than our EP's. Thats isn't to say the EP won't hold its own, just out of the box its a different story ;)

[graham]

How about a base RSX? (ooo can I say that here??? :) ) No, seriously. It's lighter (no sunroof) and there are a ton of used ones out there for sale. Potential for mods are the same as the EP ... well anyways ... something to consider.

Now as far as the cheapest route to be successful on the track ... how about an early 90's miata ... turbo'd? Light, low center of gravity, rear drive, even cheaper tires ... but oh yeah you said you wanted a hatch to carry a set of rubber and tools ... trailer it?

[glw]

for the track, i guess it depends on which one...

for autox in sts it's a tad heavy (due to all the gadgets) and the civics with a double wishbone front suspension seem to be able to turn a faster lap than the ep, even though the k20's in our ep3's have more low end torque...

i've garnered this viewpoint from reading the grassroots motorsport magazine ep project articles and talking with other knowledgeable people out at autox's and well as my own experience setting up my own ep... i think my ep is pretty much setup on suspension (but i could use a little more hp and torque) and i drive a fairly good line and i'm still pretty far back. most due to my line and tires, i think... overall i think you could probably do pretty well regionally but nationals it might be pretty tough...

IMHO

[chet]

Lots of great comments here. . .I agree with Brettnyt that w/basic suspension upgrades, the EP is a great handling car, plus a good set of rubbers. I love driving this car in autocross. If you do stay NA and don't go with a full swap, you will be lucky, to get to 200hp.

Also, huge weight reduction will benefit you greatly.

[00-ITR-373]

From the little time I've been here I've noticed two key things that are super heavy in the EP, well, 3 that are easilly changed. The battery for one can be swapped for a goldwing battery to save easy pounds (15?). Rear seats which you said you'll take out are 40 lbs. And if you'd get some light cast or forged rims, 40 lbs savings are easily yours again. I think this car would be a blast to track.

[droideka]

Originally posted by 02TafWhtSi
I'll admit that a Cooper S is far more "track ready" in stock form than our EP's. Thats isn't to say the EP won't hold its own, just out of the box its a different story ;)

I had the opportunity to drive an MCS when it first came out. What a mistake. That is a killer car suspension-wise in stock form. 70 MPH sweepers in an industrial park were no sweat for that little guy.

If I could get an EP3 to handle like that, I'd strip the fucker bare and make up for power deficits with LAAAATE braking. ;)

[anjapower]

read this post. Todd00 is a very experienced autocrosser, i think he's won some championships in his DC2 Type R.

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=481932

[bao_pay]

Originally posted by Atlas1133
The ecu might seem to be difficult now, but things will change. Head swap just needs Hondata with stock ecu, or you could roll with a Type-S ecu and tune.

are you sure thats right? I highly doubt it... I'm not doubting you here cuz I don't know much about hondata... ok i am doubting you a little bit... because hondata from what I've been reading in this forum for the last 6 months is that it only changes the fuel mapping and then rev limiter type of deal... which makes sense for the head swap situation... but does hondata have a flash that is specifically designed to run with the head swap? its got bigger lobes for the vtec... which are supposed to kick in at 5600 rpm and our vtec kicks in somewhere at 2300 rpms... I mean if it was that easy then wtf aren't more people doing it? You'd be able to have type S performance without the ambiguities of a engine swap... and because of the lower compression, better to go boosted later!!!

and as for running the rsx ecu thats an interesting thought which I had been thinking of ever since I even started considering the ep... but again... why hasn't anyone done this because its so easy(as long as the acura dealership cuts the coded key for you)

i find that there are a lot of people on here that are tech savy... or at least sound like it and none of them have done this... if it was possible why hadn't they done it already? They found a way to get rid of something so small as the moonroof closing problem but couldn't figure out a way to get 40hp for under 2g's??? It just dosen't make sense if this can be done right now because we'd all be running 190-200hp civics and laughing at all the people who spent mad cash dropping an engine they have no idea where it came from!!!

I'm not trying to put you in the hot seat... but if this can be done and you know how to do it you'll be my new best friend... but if you're just blowing smoke up everyones asses then don't bother replying to this post...

sorry i wrote so much but its a topic that needs to be resolved

[NamingException]

This has been covered many times. Head swaps have been done. You need an ECU or flash from Hondata that matches the head you have. You can have them flash your stock ECU with a program for the K20A2 and it will work just fine. You don't need new keys or anything weird like that.

I think that the main reason why you don't see a lot of people on here doing this (there are certainly people who want to) is because of cost reasons. It's hard to find a used K20A2 head, and for the cost of a new head and ECU flash you can swap the whole engine with a used A2 and sell your A3.

[stephen]

For the EP to be competitive on the track, the suspension is the first thing that needs to be completely overhauled.

That, not power, should be your very first priority.

[droideka]

Originally posted by stephen
For the EP to be competitive on the track, the suspension is the first thing that needs to be completely overhauled.

That, not power, should be your very first priority.

You think? ;)

I'm fully aware of that fact and went that way with the Z as well. I've done ZERO engine mods to the Z, but I'm accustomed to walking a lot of different cars on the track. My biggest concern is not the power available now, but what the future holds. FI is not an option on a track car that I would like to keep somewhat reliable. I've seen many a Cooper S at the track with good drivers that handle brilliantly, but the fact of the matter is they still get walked harshly on the straights. Optimumly, I'd like to get an EP's weight down and power up enough to hang with a portly 350.

[00ebpsi]

heh, 350z and you wanna tune an si... thats cool. if i were you id drop a k20 in there and tune it up. allmotor that engine and youll have a hella nice drag car.

[2k2_nbp_egg]

k24 bottom end + type S head + JRSC + type S 6 speed + quaife or some other LSD is a proven formula for a badass track car, assuming of course you throw some coilovers and sway bars and weight reduction in the mix, that EP would probably have the capabilites of lapping your 350 when driven right.

[Quicksilver]

Originally posted by droideka
I'm fully aware of that fact and went that way with the Z as well. I've done ZERO engine mods to the Z, but I'm accustomed to walking a lot of different cars on the track. My biggest concern is not the power available now, but what the future holds. FI is not an option on a track car that I would like to keep somewhat reliable. I've seen many a Cooper S at the track with good drivers that handle brilliantly, but the fact of the matter is they still get walked harshly on the straights. Optimumly, I'd like to get an EP's weight down and power up enough to hang with a portly 350.

From a pure power/weight perspective, it would be almost impossible for you to beat the Z. In stock form, the Z Track weighs in at 3225 (approx) and 280 hp. That's a 11.5 to 1 weight-to-power ratio. Take an EP and strip it down to 2400 lbs, add all the bolt ons available (short of FI or engine work/swap) and you'd be up to around 190 crank hp. That'd give the EP a 12.6 to 1 weight-to-power ratio. Still short of the Z's power. Add in the fact that that EP also has a huge torque deficit relatively speaking and you'd be even further behind.

All that being said, you can still get a power deficit FWD car to go faster around a track than a high powered RWD car given the right track and/or a good driver. Out in California there's a racing park called Willow Springs which has two tracks, Big Willow and Streets of Willow. Take a "set up" Mustang GT and a "set up" EP (for example), and the hatch will get smoked all day long by the Mustang on Big Willow because it's a high speed track. Put those same two cars on the Streets of Willows and now the FWD is not only competitive, but can also beat the RWD car, because "The Steets" is a slower, more technical road course where having the more agile car pays off. As long as you're willing to accept the limitations of the platform, then you should be very happy with the car.

Personally, I like the Si, especially after upgrading the suspension, wheels/tires and brakes. I've also got most of the bolt-on power adders too, but I'm most likely going forced induction. The lack of power just doesn't cut it any more for me. One final note, if you're going the NA track car route, get the Hondata ECU flash. I guarantee you'll hit the rev limiter at least once a lap otherwise. The car loves top end with bolt-ons, but the stock limiter is too low for the powerband.

[HK_EP3]

Dude EP3 is the perfect track car!!! just swap in a A2 and mod it crazy like this car (http://www.gtsport.com.hk/news/ep3_6.htm) and you will be set!
CLICK HERE TO SEE THE CAR IN ACTION!!! (http://www.gtsport.com.hk/news/ep3_7.htm)

[Peking]

Originally posted by bao_pay
are you sure thats right? I highly doubt it... I'm not doubting you here cuz I don't know much about hondata... ok i am doubting you a little bit... because hondata from what I've been reading in this forum for the last 6 months is that it only changes the fuel mapping and then rev limiter type of deal... which makes sense for the head swap situation... but does hondata have a flash that is specifically designed to run with the head swap? its got bigger lobes for the vtec... which are supposed to kick in at 5600 rpm and our vtec kicks in somewhere at 2300 rpms... I mean if it was that easy then wtf aren't more people doing it? You'd be able to have type S performance without the ambiguities of a engine swap... and because of the lower compression, better to go boosted later!!!

and as for running the rsx ecu thats an interesting thought which I had been thinking of ever since I even started considering the ep... but again... why hasn't anyone done this because its so easy(as long as the acura dealership cuts the coded key for you)

i find that there are a lot of people on here that are tech savy... or at least sound like it and none of them have done this... if it was possible why hadn't they done it already? They found a way to get rid of something so small as the moonroof closing problem but couldn't figure out a way to get 40hp for under 2g's??? It just dosen't make sense if this can be done right now because we'd all be running 190-200hp civics and laughing at all the people who spent mad cash dropping an engine they have no idea where it came from!!!

I'm not trying to put you in the hot seat... but if this can be done and you know how to do it you'll be my new best friend... but if you're just blowing smoke up everyones asses then don't bother replying to this post...

sorry i wrote so much but its a topic that needs to be resolved

Yes, back about a year ago what I typed was very true. It took some time but Tuners such as Hondata have produced flash programs. Everone agrees that the new K- series ecu's are difficult to tune. Security, and running lean were Honda's goal. Which is just what I was stating. Just a few weeks ago, the head of Revhard did an interview. Stating that they are working on tuning the ecu for more power. And you are right about the flash program from Hondata. I think there are two different programs, Jackson racing also has a flash. Cybernation, and Revhard have seperate modules. I agree with just about everything you have stated, which I feel is strange how you could get so much from the little post I posted. Mybe I should have explained myself better so you wouldn't have thought that I was downing the idea, cause I wasn't. I remember reading that someone has already done this. Also different org. teams have done different swaps such as this.

"but does hondata have a flash that is specifically designed to run with the head swap?" Not sure if this is so.

"I'm not trying to put you in the hot seat... but if this can be done and you know how to do it you'll be my new best friend... but if you're just blowing smoke up everyones asses then don't bother replying to this post..." Your not putting me in the hot seat, considering what I posted came from the pages and posts of others (Sport Compact, HondaTuning, etc.). Also I love the part about blowing smoke up everyones asses. Wohahahahaha.

[Peking]

Originally posted by bao_pay
You guys make it sound so easy to swap the heads in these cars... they aren't B-series motors... the ecu makes things so hard for us... so for the k24 frakenstein and then k20a2 head swap isn't that out of the question for us or am I just being ignorant not knowing anything?

I should have answered your question like this. It is easier than you think, just time and money. Yes they are not B-series motors, improved block in the K-series. Transversed engine, which I have been told to be more natural movement. And less room for the exhaust gases to travel, and some of us know about lowered rides and scrapping headers. The swap is not out of the question, that is what alot of these guys live for. The ecu is difficult to tune, yet progress is being made almost daily.

I still can't get over the blowing smoke. Hahahahhahhaha, but really I hope this helps alittle to clear up what you think I meant in my org. post.

Also I am sorry I can't help you with knowing how to do this specificly. I guess we can't be best friends, oh well just as long as you understand that I was not trying to throw any B.S. around here. I have been here for a while now, seen many folks come and go. Out of respect for everyone I have tried to keep my posts relative to the topic at hand. And like so many others, tried to be as helpful as I can be .

:D

Jon

[Peking]

I forgot I posted here, glad I checked my post history. Or folks might be thinking I just blow smoke up peoples asses. Hahahahaha, sorry, if that was true I would have had so many post fights that I would have been banned by now :tongue:. Not saying that I know all (cause I sure as hell don't). Just that I comment on things that I atleast have some idea about. Even though I was alittle hurt by your comments, I do sorta see where you are coming from. So I hope that we are atleast cool now. Cause I am not trying to down you in any way.

[BlasTech]

I think the 12.6 to 1 ratio Quicksilver offered pretty much answers your question concerning the EP's K20A3 NA potential.

However, as you stated before, being lighter can help with late braking, which is a relatively big advantage. Unless you're drag racing, horsepower is not the only factor in making a winner, right?

I guess a custom suspension setup is going to be the best bet, since even the most aggressive packages we have available are still pretty street tuned.

I just wanna see EP's in the Honda Challenge. What club/series are you planning to race in? Frisco is pretty close to TMS isnt it?

[droideka]

Originally posted by BlasTech
I think the 12.6 to 1 ratio Quicksilver offered pretty much answers your question concerning the EP's K20A3 NA potential.

However, as you stated before, being lighter can help with late braking, which is a relatively big advantage. Unless you're drag racing, horsepower is not the only factor in making a winner, right?

I guess a custom suspension setup is going to be the best bet, since even the most aggressive packages we have available are still pretty street tuned.

I just wanna see EP's in the Honda Challenge. What club/series are you planning to race in? Frisco is pretty close to TMS isnt it?

I've been agonizing over this for about three weeks now. Realistically, I can dump $10K+ into a new EP if I get rid of the Z. I could build an EP that would outhandle and outrun a MINI S, but there's a couple of nagging issues in the back of my mind.

1. To do the EP right, it means destroying a brand new (or slightly used) car's resale value. I don't fancy owning a $25-$30K EP that won't be worth a quarter of that after all of the mods I would intend to do. The one saving grace for the EP is that swinging a membership to MSR is a no-hassle proposition for the wife. I've been to several DEs in the Z and private membership is where it's at.

2. As much as I love my daily-driver EP, it does not scare me in the least bit. I still fear and respect the Z on open track. Being a bit weary at the ragged edge on the track is paramount to my enjoyment. The way the Z slides around at the edge is a huge rush and a catalyst for my wanting to take things a step further.

The bottom line is no matter how well the EP could handle in NA trim without a swap, the Z will always walk it's ass with the same driver in both cars. I'm accustomed to that HP now and letting it go would be extremely difficult. I'll take the Z out every few days now and always come back with a huge smile and a raging hard-on. Depending on what my wife allows for my "racing" budget next year (she's kind of mad about the $9K I spent in mods, tires and brake pads this year), I think I'll try and swing the $2400 initiation fee to MSR, continue to mod the Z and see where it goes from there.

I've also considered a 125cc shifter kart as those WILL scare the shit out of you, but several accidents have been happening up in Denton. Wrecking a car because you're a dumbass and drive past the limit is one thing, but breaking a fucking leg in a kart is something completely different and not what I'd like to experience anytime soon. ;)

[B18CXr]

This has been covered many times. Head swaps have been done. You need an ECU or flash from Hondata that matches the head you have.

sorry but incorrect, you can run the ep ecu on a PRB head, not the "best thing" but will work.

my SI BUS is NOT running "lean", as some here assume, with the stock EP ECU/flash




droideka-
do youself a favor and just procure a type S, you need that motor and brake system to start with anyway, call me at the shop if you'd like more indepth info. I've "most likely" put the most on track miles on an EP than any here and can give you a full run down as to what needs to be/should be done to the EP to make it work for the best...........etc...

[chunky]

Originally posted by B18CXr
This has been covered many times. Head swaps have been done. You need an ECU or flash from Hondata that matches the head you have.

sorry but incorrect, you can run the ep ecu on a PRB head, not the "best thing" but will work.

my SI BUS is NOT running "lean", as some here assume, with the stock EP ECU/flash




droideka-
do youself a favor and just procure a type S, you need that motor and brake system to start with anyway, call me at the shop if you'd like more indepth info. I've "most likely" put the most on track miles on an EP than any here and can give you a full run down as to what needs to be/should be done to the EP to make it work for the best...........etc...

I think he really liked the useable space in the EP's hatch. The type-s has a much lower hatch, making lugging tools & tires around a bit less practical.

My suggestion is to get a USED ep3, buy a motor swap, or at the very least get the rsx-s or rsx-r transmission. The ideal situation would be to buy the dc5-r engine/transmission/ecu. THAT would make you instantly competitive with the 350z's in the straights, and depending on your tire/suspension budget, you'd keep them in your sights around the turns.

If you're serious about building a race car, starting with a brand spanking new shell is a silly thing to do. Find a used ep3, and go from there. The $$$ you save on buying used will allow you to get the motor swap done for the same $$$ as a new ep3.

But jack is right, to be competitive on the track, you NEED the motor swap.

As for suspension suggestions, short of moton or penske, JIC would be the best choice. Tell them what rates you want, and they'll send you a custom valved & sprung flta-2 coilover.

As for brakes, there are a few big brake kits availible, but I suggest installing cooling ducts, getting cryo treated rotors, SS lines, synthetic brake fluid, and a real racing pad. I've currently got the Performance friction 01 compound on a set of pads and i have yet to get them to fade even from repeated triple digit stops. When you've got the money, I'd suggest going with a smaller (smaller as in one that does not require 17" wheels) brake upgrade kit - docofmind offers an upgrade that will give you a new caliper & 11" rotor that will fit inside an aftermarket 15" wheel.

then gut the hatch, have a cage welded in, and get yourself some 15x8 or 16x8 lightweight wheels wrapped in hoosiers. :D

[BlasTech]

I think chunky's advice about buying a used EP is excellent, and there HAPPENS to be one available in New Orleans (PoRT's) with a 220 hp ITR engine in it!!!

You would be our HERO if you raced the EP. :D

PS: Does MotorSportRanch let guests come and spectate the events? :angel:

[droideka]

Originally posted by BlasTech
I think chunky's advice about buying a used EP is excellent, and there HAPPENS to be one available in New Orleans (PoRT's) with a 220 hp ITR engine in it!!!

You would be our HERO if you raced the EP. :D

PS: Does MotorSportRanch let guests come and spectate the events? :angel:

I just sent PoRT a PM... :)

Don't just spectate at MSR, come out and join an HPDE! Yes, spectators are more than welcome.

[2k2_nbp_egg]

Hmm where is this MSR? I wanna get some track time ;)

[BlasTech]

http://www.motorsportranch.com/secondary.html

WOOT!

I might go for an entry level DE, but I would feel wierd doing it without a cage/harness... Im sure its fun, but safety is paramount in my book. :angel:

[bao_pay]

Originally posted by Atlas1133
I forgot I posted here, glad I checked my post history. Or folks might be thinking I just blow smoke up peoples asses. Hahahahaha, sorry, if that was true I would have had so many post fights that I would have been banned by now :tongue:. Not saying that I know all (cause I sure as hell don't). Just that I comment on things that I atleast have some idea about. Even though I was alittle hurt by your comments, I do sorta see where you are coming from. So I hope that we are atleast cool now. Cause I am not trying to down you in any way.

I didn't get a e-mail telling me there was a reply to this post... I just figured I scared everyone off... hehehe... but as for your posts they do make sense... I don't even know what I was so uptight about... must of been cuz we just got this one guy in the track discussion to admit he was "exaggerating" his times a little and I got carried away... hahaha... I'm starting to learn more and more about these engines everyday reading here and there and you're right, you can do the sawp you just need the proper ecu...

I want to know whether it is better to just get the head swap and ecu change because to me I take care of my engine and I really don't know where the other one has come from. Plus I would like to gain more power which I believe can be done using the k24 head on a a3 block then just doing a direct swap to a a2. The only problem is where am I going to get these parts. I'm still entertaining the thought of the swap which I want done before november, or next summer. Anyways, everything is cool now... no worries =)

[Peking]

Sweet, parts will be available with time.

[droideka]

Originally posted by BlasTech
http://www.motorsportranch.com/secondary.html

WOOT!

I might go for an entry level DE, but I would feel wierd doing it without a cage/harness... Im sure its fun, but safety is paramount in my book. :angel:

There's really no danger in the HPDEs out there. I was on-track five times out there this year and the only thing I ruined was tires and brake pads. There is SO MUCH run-off that you'd have to be a complete idiot to bend your car. Since day one, there has NEVER been any car-to-car contact during an HPDE at MSR.