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View Full Version : Why Swapping Internals Might Not Be Good



rocket_civic
06-26-2002, 04:26 PM
Here we go, time for master (engine moderator?) Trevor to explain.... (this will be long)

The RSX type S head is basically useless for us to bolt on because we have what i like to call SHITTY pistons. The dome of the piston has a stupid "nipple" in the top which is supposed to improve emissions.

The bore and stroke of our engine the K20A (no # is designated yet after the A) is exactly the same as the RSX Type S (K20A2) and RSX (K20A3) engine.

Some of the differences are that the RSX and RSX type S have though is that the RSX has a two stage composite intake manifold, versus the Aluminum single stage RSX Type S intake manifold. WE also have the Aluminum single stage so at least thats a +.

The compression ratios are also different in our engine versus the RSX Type S. Ours = 9.8:1, Type S = 11.0:1. This is mainly because of the pistons and how the head is ported.

Also the RSX Type S has a fully counterweighted crank, versus our SHITTY crank which is our downfall in in higher revs.

The Rods are pretty much the same, but the Type S has stonger rods to help with higher piston speed.


What we Should do? Swap in a RSX Type S engine. Thats the best solution. Granted its pricey, but i would have to say do that.

Or... Wait until better pistons coem out for the Si so that we can improve the stupid engineering of hondas emissions devision, and also look into getting a counterweighted RSX type S crank. Then I would have to say that a RSX Type S head wouldnt be a bad idea after all. But remember you are talking about changing basically all of the lower end of the engine, then putting a completely different head. All of this is still with a 5 speed tranny!!!
Word also is that the S2000 has the exact same head gasket as our K series engines... Can you imagine that kinda fun under the hood?

I'll find out more info, seeing as how i've been working on a RSX Type S engine with a buddy of mine and I'll get back to you all.


http://bling.imperial.org/smile/fruit.gif

DownTheHatch
06-26-2002, 06:29 PM
If pistons are the problem was can transplant type-s or type-r pistons for higher compression.

Brenetics
06-26-2002, 07:42 PM
What do you think our potential is?

I've been beat twice by my buddy's 00 Si....frustrating

rocket_civic
06-26-2002, 08:27 PM
In my personal opinion the outlook is positive. Just give it time for the aftermarket to kick in.

As for the Honda Integra Type R (our RSX Type S with 20 more horse) I was offered the opportunity to purchase a complete setup for my Si, but i had to unfortunately turn it down because of the fact that i do not have 6 grand for a new engine. Granted a 6 speed 220 base hp Si would be sweet as hell I just dont have the funding.

And in response to swapping the type s or r pistons...Y swap high compression pistons when:
A- we have a shitty head setup
B- we have a shitty crank compared to the Type S and R.

So basically i personally think, now remember this is my .02 and that might not mean a whole lot..but if you're gonna do it right, do it right the first time.

Brenetics
06-26-2002, 08:33 PM
If Honda would have just given us a higher rev limit, i wold be happy...but as it is I'm "okay" for now atleast.

Scivichatch02
06-26-2002, 10:49 PM
all i have to say is that are cars are never going to be quick as the older model civic cause we weight a ton more than all the older civic :mad:

SiCivic2k2
06-27-2002, 07:15 AM
I don't know about your Si, but I weighed mine at the track and with me out of it it weighed 2650 me in it it weighed 2800. That's about the same weight as the old Si's give or take a few lbs.

SIborland
06-27-2002, 01:33 PM
The weight is what Ive been trying to explain to a lot of people. Especially 99-00 Si owners. They keep giving me crap about weight. The real difference between the cars is the revs I think. I mean v-tec hits so hard at 6k, but as soon as it hits really hard, its done. So our peak power band is smaller. If we could just have like 500 more revs...by by old Si's. But thats just what I think:D

Idonthaveahatch
06-27-2002, 02:15 PM
Im sure there will be tons of stolen rsx-s for the swap for your cars. like all the Rs in this world are getting stolen, for civic swaps.

SiCivic2k2
06-27-2002, 03:59 PM
I've raced a couple stock (from my knowledge) older Si's and I beat both of them. The thing is, our cars shift sooner. It takes the older Si's to get all the way to their 8k redline where all there power is. As for us we have it down low and all the way through the powerband. We definately have a little more torque than the older Si's also. I love racing one and looking in my review mirror after launching. I always take them off the line because we have just a tad bit more torque. I think that our newer Si's will get the credit they deserve whenever more aftermarket products are tested and people realize what these cars are capable of. Just my .02 ;)

K20NutBucket
06-27-2002, 05:54 PM
all i have to say is......well aint that some $hit.......:eek:

rocket_civic
06-27-2002, 10:27 PM
I am the shit. Wait... people say it differently...oh yeah.. Arent I a piece of shit. Lol

Sorry... i went to summerfest tonight and had a few too many!

:D

ericcarver1
06-30-2003, 02:54 AM
So how hard is it to put the RSX motor into the Si? What would a god shop charge for the work?

eric

ssvr6
06-30-2003, 04:36 AM
There are new pistons and rods that can be used. Cybernation has been installing them in their RSX-S's for a while now. I saw them the other day and they look great.

I'm not sure if they make them or if they're JE or some other manufacturer. I just know that they have them.


Steve

B18CXr
06-30-2003, 05:12 AM
The most cost effective thing to do is: DC5-R pistons, intake and PRB head.

Only thing after that is engine management.........

BlasTech
06-30-2003, 07:27 AM
SIborland, I dont think there is any vtec kicking in after 2500 on the EP. What you feel might be the vvt. Here (http://www.hondata.com/techk20general.html) is a good explanation of how our vtec works.

Everyone, don't despair. Hasport is going to find a way to create a market for our Si engines in older/other Hondas, meaning we'll most likely be able to sell them more easily than now, and apply that money RSX-S engines. When you consider the new transmission, the cost-performance for doing a swap (assuming you get like 1500-2000 for the A3) is a good bang-for-buck deal.

Dunrick
06-30-2003, 08:22 PM
the 99-00 Si's have FAR less torque. Lets not talk peak power here. We make the same "peak" trq they do at like 3-4k depending on what mods we got. Our torque curve makes up for more than the weight difference between the two cars. We dyno higher at the wheels also, due to electric steering I believe. So it sounds like our car is totally dominant off the shelf! NO! They shift at 8 where we shift at 6800 --- this gives them enough boost to hang with us. The cars are so damn similar in 1/4 times that it all comes down to drivers and driving conditions. The EP handles better, and performs better to mods. The 99-00 si's are classic cars though and I want one still to this day for a car I can beat on while I pay off my egg. hth

BlackNRedSi
06-30-2003, 10:41 PM
why not just bore over the piston heads, and get new pistions? or are they not around yet?

coming from the domestic world (owned a camaro) when i bored over 30, and put new piston heads in i gained alot of torque....

is this why you guys are talking about the RSX-S heads?

Thanks for the good write up!

Eric

IceD out N CALI
07-01-2003, 03:04 PM
i think it would be best to just get the a2 engine w/tranny then trying to replace the crank,rods,pistons, head and other parts

super_si_45
07-01-2003, 04:44 PM
gentlemen, the answers u seek are as simple as the backside of a forty degree angle upside down in a barrel and it is this.............



the answer for any problem is......juice! just through a 200 shot on there, ull get the gain u want!!






:p lol, j/k

madbrain
07-02-2003, 07:39 AM
I'm not sure if they make them or if they're JE or some other manufacturer. I just know that they have them.


Just call the JE tech-line if you want pistons for your Si. They will make them in any CR you want for the same price. For rods, Eagle now has rods out. About the crank, our crank is forged and balanced and can withstand a high CR or high boost in stock form.

chunky
07-02-2003, 11:08 AM
Low compression:

you can fix that by getting pistons with a higher dome, hell, wait for some nice forged pistons to come out.

Weak rods/crank:

either get the type-s/type-r units or get forged internals. Also, i've been getting a lot of mixed info as to wether our crank is fully counterweighted like the RSX cranks. Both the type-s and base rsx get counterweighted cranks. I would imagine that we also have a counterweighted crank, but I have no clear info on that. What I do know is that we have a 2nd balance shaft in our oil pan. Which is part of the reason why our motors are so smooth. Also, the balance of the crank isn't why our engines don't make power at the top of the rpm band - that has everything to do with the head.

so as b18cxr, said , head swap + better internals + standalone.

so why SHOULDN'T i swap internals? esp considering it will most likely come out to be less in parts$$$ than what an entire rsx-s motor costs. Might even have enough left over to get a type-r trans with the lsd when they become availible.