Clunky Shifting Due To Bad Slave Cylinder?

[HokieSi]

I just took my 02 si into the honda dealership to get it evaluated. I had several things wrong with it, one was clunky shifter feel and noise with the tranny in neutral and the clutch out. The mech seems to think the slave cylinder has gone bad. Is this an accurate diagnosis? Has anyone else had this problem?

[siep]

Let me know what the dealer finds regarding that. Question is, how can you tell if the slave cylinder goes bad or not? I haven't taken mine in yet, but I'm close to the end of my factory warranty.

[ep pilot]

My guess is that our synchromesh design is under developed to handle extreme driving. Given the package our car represents out-of-the-box, Small tires & wheels, overall conservative. Should suggest that the car wasn

[cbecker333]

No no no no no.

I don't ever speed shift or abuse my car. I have babied it 100% from day one, even had the transmission fluid replaced at my own expense at 15,000 miles. I run it hard from time to time, but never racing or autoxing or anything like that. I should be able to expect that my car can be run to the red line, perhaps even as much as I want to every single day, and would assert that this is still normal use if I am pushing the clutch all the way down before shifting and otherwise practicing good technique. If my car can't live up to the expectation set by the redline, the redline should be lower - OR if its the tranny that can't handle spirited driving that my 160hp inspires, then the Honda engineers should have designed it to take what THEY are throwing at it. Whether your Honda dealer will admit it or not, they can't very easily prove abuse in any case, and especially when the car is not being abused.

[cbecker333]

Here's an except from honda's own web page:

"The Civic Si is the ultimate Civic. With its 2.0-liter, 16-valve DOHC i-VTEC

[Zero Three Si]

It's starting to seem more and more to me that Honda doesn't want to be sterotyped into the "import/racer" scene anymore. They seem to be going towards the typical "suburbia" vehicle. Ie:element, passport, accord, crv, etc.

I'm sticking with them because the EP can still be modded out to be one heck of a car.

[bobdobbs]

Originally posted by HokieSi
I just took my 02 si into the honda dealership to get it evaluated. I had several things wrong with it, one was clunky shifter feel and noise with the tranny in neutral and the clutch out.
Is the noise when you're stopped, idling, or when you're coasting down the street, in neutral?

If it's at idle, stopped, it's usually a throw-out bearing, like Ryan said.

If the noise doesn't exist while you're stopped, but while your coasting down the street, in neutral, it might be the transmission itself, or maybe CV joints.

A bad clutch slave cylinder would keep you from fully disengaging the clutch disk, and might cause premature disk wear, and/or a throw-out bearing wear. If they're going to replace the slave cylinder and throw-out bearing, make sure they give you a new clutch disk, too. Even if it's not bad now, it will be bad sooner than it should if the slave was working properly.

This crap is why I dislike hydraulic clutches. Even though cables stretch and snap (been there), there's not much else that can go wrong with them. And they're easy to adjust and replace.

[02SilverSiHB]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ep pilot
[B]My guess is that our synchromesh design is under developed to handle extreme driving. Given the package our car represents out-of-the-box, Small tires & wheels, overall conservative. Should suggest that the car wasn

[HokieSi]

Originally posted by bobdobbs
Is the noise when you're stopped, idling, or when you're coasting down the street, in neutral?

A bad clutch slave cylinder would keep you from fully disengaging the clutch disk, and might cause premature disk wear, and/or a throw-out bearing wear. If they're going to replace the slave cylinder and throw-out bearing, make sure they give you a new clutch disk, too. Even if it's not bad now, it will be bad sooner than it should if the slave was working properly.


The noise happens when the car is sitting still in neutral with the clutch out. Sometimes it is louder than others and it is very faint you have to push the clutch in and let it out in order to hear it. However, I think if the slave cylinder is goiong bad then basically that would equal crappy shifting and clutch slipping, right? The clutch is definitely not slipping. I have my doubts about this guy's decision to replace the slave cylinder. I think the problem is probably somewhere in the clutch assy.

Better description:
-Clutch in + neutral = no noise
-Clutch out + neutral = faint metallic whirling noise
-At a stop with the clutch in when I select first gear I get a clunk no matter what.
-all shifts are notchy
-I can shift "doing a lot of work" ie. babying it in to the gate and I get very little or no grind. The problem is much worst in the mornings and it doesn't go away once the car has warmed up. This technique takes considerably longer to shift. Its definetly not a normal shift.

BTW I've been driving MT for 6 years, I've owned an 87 mazda b2000 and an 88 crx dx. Both shifted like butter. The EP shifts like a "bolt action rifle".

[bobdobbs]

That is an excellent description of the problem and it sounds like you've got a bad clutch slave cylinder. With a bad slave, your clutch disk will not disengage fully, even though the clutch pedal is all the way to the floor. It slips constantly until you let up on the pedal.

When you're stopped and idling with the clutch in, the clutch isn't fully disengaged, so you're spinning your throw-out bearing, causing it to whir. That's the noise you're hearing. This also causes too much wear/heat on the throw-out bearing, and it will go bad prematurely.

When you sit with your tranny in neutral and the clutch pedal out, the throw-out bearing is pinned and *not* spinning. You don't hear it. If you were hearing a metallic whirring noise while doing this, it would be the bearings in your tranny. You don't have that problem.

The reason you're getting a CLUNK when you put it in first is your input shaft is already spinning, because the clutch isn't fully disengaged. This is the same behavior you'd get if you had a clutch cable and it had stretched. Your shifts will be very notchy, unless you match revs perfectly and it will be worse when the tranny is cold.

I think the mechanic is right, so let him replace the slave cylinder. I would also make the point that you've also got a noisy (failing) throw-out bearing, and a worn clutch disk and those should be replaced, too. That's a LOT more work, so I doubt they're going to volunteer to do that. If they don't, though, you're going to have to soon.

Good luck.

[HokieSi]

I'm sure if the slave cylinder is bad they will replace the throw-out bearing and clutch too because I could attribute the extra wear to honda's faulty part.

[HokieSi]

Oh yea and then there is the tranny whine. It sounds like I have a turbo under the hood or a WRC car being put though its pace. Can this also be attributed to the TOB?

[bobdobbs]

Originally posted by HokieSi
Oh yea and then there is the tranny whine. It sounds like I have a turbo under the hood or a WRC car being put though its pace. Can this also be attributed to the TOB?
When does it happen? Our trannies whine normally, especially in the lower gears, 1st and reverse. It does sound like a turbo.

[HokieSi]

I would say its more noticeable in third and fourth.

[blueiedgod]

Mine whines as well. I thought it was the engine. I would get the same whiny sound if I just revved the engine with the clutch out or in.
I have noise in the morning. When I start her up first time in the morning, and let out the clutch while in neutral, I get this fain matal scaping sound that goes away in a couple of minutes. I figured that it was due to cold oil and the input shaft was stirring it.

[02SilverSiHB]

I'm getting my master cylinder and slave cylinder replaced. Here's my post http://www.ephatch.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=257824#post257824
Mine would make a whine sound when I had the clutch down in first and would be rolling down a little in my drive way, did this in any gear. Then when I would try and put if back in first it would make a grind feeling. The upon accelerating I couldn't go into the gears sometimes...it would lock up...any gear.
Then when I would down shift, it would do the same, couldn't get in gear. Sometimes the clutch felt like it was being slapped around in the tranny, hard to explain.
oh and I have 27,000 miles on the car

[HokieSi]

My clutch definitely grips I really don't think its the clutch assy at all. I think the slave cylinder going bad is bs. I think it is something else. If my slave cylinder was going back I would not be able to shift well yes, but I would also hear noise when the clutch is released, which I do not. I just drove home and experienced the following.

1. When the clutch is depressed and I'm in neutral, (ie no contact with the flywheel or engine, and the tranny is not spinning) there is no noise. When the clutch is released (contact with the flywheel and tranny spinning) with it in neutral I get this grinding/whirling sound. I can tach it up to 3k with the clutch released and the sound it makes is much louder.

2. The shifting just sucks I grind pretty much no matter what. I'm not too sure why it was more pronounced today (cold and overcast) than yesterday (cold and rainy, also when I took it to the dealer).

3. I get the turbo whine in 3rd and 4th gears during acceleration.

I know I sound like I'm repeating myself but I think Bobdobbs misunderstood me.

[bobdobbs]

Originally posted by HokieSi

I know I sound like I'm repeating myself but I think Bobdobbs misunderstood me.
Okay, you need to be more exact in your language. You just used "clutch" to mean both your clutch disk ("my clutch grips") and your clutch pedal ("when the clutch is depressed"). I read your previous post to mean your clutch DISK and you meant your clutch PEDAL. Please, be specific.

Based on this:


1. When the clutch is depressed and I'm in neutral, (ie no contact with the flywheel or engine, and the tranny is not spinning) there is no noise. When the clutch is released (contact with the flywheel and tranny spinning) with it in neutral I get this grinding/whirling sound. I can tach it up to 3k with the clutch released and the sound it makes is much louder.


I would say your problem is in the tranny. I'm not sure why you're stressing over this, though. Let them replace the slave cylinder. When that doesn't fix the problem, you tell them and they replace something else. As long as it's warranty work, who cares? It's not your job to diagnose your car.

[HokieSi]

Yea I meant the pedal sorry, I typed it up fast. I shouldn't stress about it but I just like to know what is wrong.

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by HokieSi
My clutch definitely grips I really don't think its the clutch assy at all. I think the slave cylinder going bad is bs. I think it is something else. If my slave cylinder was going back I would not be able to shift well yes, but I would also hear noise when the clutch is released, which I do not. I just drove home and experienced the following.
I think you are right about them being wrong. I just went to the dealer to get my car. They were out driving it when I got there, they came back and then went out again. Guy comes up to me and says that replacing the master cylinder and slave cylinder didn't work...it's still not working like it should. Now they are most likely going to go into the gears.

You and I (I think anyway) are having similar problems...very similar. Now get this, I thought these guy working on my car were the ones who decide what to do...but no, the guy says that now they have to call "Honda Tech" and ask them what they should do next...that to me sounds like a damn honda tech hotline for people that have no clue what is wrong with the car. They are going to go through that entire tranny calling back and forth...rediculous. My car will be in the shop for a while. Have you put your car in the shop yet?

[HokieSi]

02SilverSiHB
I just got the call today that my slave cylinder and window trim is in so I guess I'll be taking it in soon. I don't totally understand everything about a MT but I am pretty good at problem solving and I know I could pull a burn out if I wanted to. Definitely not my clutch. I guess I'm going to let the guy replace the slave cylinder but I know he is wasting his time. After all he gets paid to do this, I don't, I just program computers for a living.

I would like to point him in the right direction by saying its probably somewhere around the input shaft or bearings but I still haven't figured out what could be causing the notchy shifting. I don't think the mech did a through inspection and test drive :( I guess we should start documenting our ordeals now.

The other thing I might recommend and or fight for is a new tranny. I'm not sure how much this would cost honda but I know when I bought the car it was new. Therefore I want new parts going into it. I'd rather not have a rebuilt tranny. I guess it really doesn't matter too much though because I'll probably be trading in for a new car soon.

If you get someone ripping apart your transmission I bet that will equal a shorter lifespan down the road..... after 36k miles where you can get screw by honda royally.

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by HokieSi
02SilverSiHB
I just got the call today that my slave cylinder and window trim is in so I guess I'll be taking it in soon. I don't totally understand everything about a MT but I am pretty good at problem solving and I know I could pull a burn out if I wanted to. Definitely not my clutch. I guess I'm going to let the guy replace the slave cylinder but I know he is wasting his time. After all he gets paid to do this, I don't, I just program computers for a living.

I would like to point him in the right direction by saying its probably somewhere around the input shaft or bearings but I still haven't figured out what could be causing the notchy shifting. I don't think the mech did a through inspection and test drive :( I guess we should start documenting our ordeals now.

The other thing I might recommend and or fight for is a new tranny. I'm not sure how much this would cost honda but I know when I bought the car it was new. Therefore I want new parts going into it. I'd rather not have a rebuilt tranny. I guess it really doesn't matter too much though because I'll probably be trading in for a new car soon.

If you get someone ripping apart your transmission I bet that will equal a shorter lifespan down the road..... after 36k miles where you can get screw by honda royally.
I hear ya man...they're wasting their time with the slave cylinder. They tried and failed, wasn't that. I talked to the tech, when they mess with the gears...they come in a set, so they can't order them alone. Rediculous. This is going to take forever...I feel your pain. I take it you'll get a rental for free also?
Funny thing is, the guy (admin guy, the one in the middle) said he has to check to make sure they'll cover the next part of messing with my tranny...I'm thinking to myself...I FUCKING KNOW THEY'LL COVER IT BECAUSE IT'S A MOTHER FUCKING WARRANTY! I hate it when they talk like that. If they ask me if I've raced it, I'm like NO! It's a fucking civic, it only has 160hp, how could I race it even if I wanted to. Don't let them try to charge you, I know I won't.

[HokieSi]

Well I just got my car back from Honda today. I do have to say that Rosenthal Honda in Tyson's Corner has great service. There was a grinding sound when the clutch pedal was out with tranny in neutral so they replaced the master and slave cylinder. Great Service!

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by HokieSi
Well I just got my car back from Honda today. I do have to say that Rosenthal Honda in Tyson's Corner has great service. There was a grinding sound when the clutch pedal was out with tranny in neutral so they replaced the master and slave cylinder. Great Service!
mine ended up being more than that. I had a fried clutch and bent some metal in the clutch assembly. Thank God for the warranty! ;)
Glad to hear you are back and running now. It's weird trying to get used to this new clutch.

[bobdobbs]

Originally posted by HokieSi
Well I just got my car back from Honda today. I do have to say that Rosenthal Honda in Tyson's Corner has great service. There was a grinding sound when the clutch pedal was out with tranny in neutral so they replaced the master and slave cylinder. Great Service!
So, you're all good? That's excellent!