when to ditch the dino juice?

[hatchetman]

i hope i waited long enough to change to full synthetic. 2750 miles. what do ya'll think. i went easy on the car for the first 500 miles, then slowly started to open her up. by 1000 i had found the rev-limiter. i did'nt want a slug so i put the hammer down occationally but did'nt beat the sh*t out of her. i hope i get a strong engine that does'nt drink it's fluids. any thoughts. thanks.:confused:

[hacim]

I took mine to red like 3 times before 500 miles. I have 2800 miles now and I drive it hard on ocasion and let me tell you it is faster then when I first gou it. Definetly third gear is stronger now. My wife loves third, she says thats where all the power is. Women..

[DOTEK]

Don't be foolish, fill it up with what the manufacturer recommends for the car on AT LEAST the first 2 oil changes. Don't rush these things, one should wait till the engine breaks 7,500 to 10,000 miles before switching to full synthetic.

[Hondatech]

Don't rush these things, one should wait till the engine breaks 7,500 to 10,000 miles before switching to full synthetic

Care to elaborate?

[madbrain]

Care to elaborate?

I will elaborate for him. The break in process is necessary to properly seat your piston rings in the cylinder walls. During the early phase of breakin (i.e. 20-500miles) the piston rings will score the cylinder wallls and seat themselves preventing oil blowback and loss of compression. The latter stages of breakin take much longer (i.e. 500-8000miles) for the rings to fully seat. If you switch to a synthetic too early there will be little if no friction between the rings and the cylinder walls which would mean the rings would never be properly seated. In laymens terms the engine will not perform as well as one that has been properly broken in.

[Hondatech]

You're right about the early part of the break in. However, you certainly do not need to wait until anything like 8000 miles before switching to synthetic. My last two Hondas (2000 EX coupe and 2001 Accord LX) both got switched to synthetic at 6000 kilometers (~4000 miles). Zero oil burning, excellent compression. I switched my '02 SiR over to synthetic (Castrol Syntec 5W30) at 4600 kilometers (~3000 miles) and it hasn't used a drop. It did use about 1 1/2 liters during the first 2000 kilometers on the factory fill. I changed mine a little earlier then I'd usually recommend to our customers, but I already had a few AutoX events on the factory fill, and felt like chainging over a little early before I finished our autoX season.

So, bottom line. From Honda, once you've gone the recommended distance for the first oil change, no problems switching over to synthetic.

[02-sir]

So then that would be 5000 miles or 8000 kms right? It seems like most people (including myself) are changing their oil earlier at around 3500 miles. I've decided to make my first oil change using conventional oil and then switch to synthetic at around 5000 miles. In the end there's probably very little difference between switching over at 3500 miles vs. 5000 miles (MHO)

[Hondatech]

In the end there's probably very little difference between switching over at 3500 miles vs. 5000 miles (MHO)

Based on my experience with my own Honda products, and with our customers cars, most of the break in is done by about 2500 miles (~4000 kilometers). Usually, I recommend to customers who DON'T drive agressively to leave the factory fill in for a full 4000 miles (~6000 KM). Folks, like myself, who drive in a "spirited" manner, can change earlier as stated without worry.

[madbrain]

Another reason to do your first change earlier is to remove most metal shavings from the engine before the high heat causes them to bond to moving parts or make thier way into the oil pump.

[madbrain]

Based on my experience with my own Honda products, and with our customers cars, most of the break in is done by about 2500 miles (~4000 kilometers). Usually, I recommend to customers who DON'T drive agressively to leave the factory fill in for a full 4000 miles (~6000 KM). Folks, like myself, who drive in a "spirited" manner, can change earlier as stated without worry.

Question. Not flaming or anything but with your experience of doing oil changes at the dealership do you remove the heads and check the cylinder walls and or wear on the piston rings. Do you check the compression chamber for signs of blowback and finally do you check compression. I think not. Possibly you have done these things on your own vehicles so please reserve your experience to a direct relation to what you actually can substantiate. The only reason I am saying all this is because this is not a matter for speculation, this was a question which required specific technical advice.

I do agree that less agressive drivers should wait untill the manufacturer's recommended mileagefor the first oil change but not switch to synthetic. The reason I stated such an elevated mileage to change to synthetic is because many drivers take it easy on the car for the first 600miles or so, the most important stages of breakin occur during this period and if the rings have worn without scoring the piston walls the seating of the rings will take substantially longer. Switching to synthetic can halt this process.

[Hondatech]

The only reason I am saying all this is because this is not a matter for speculation, this was a question which required specific technical advice.

Well, if my own experiences aren't qualified enough, then how about this. Our technical heads at the Honda Training Center for Westen Zone feel it is OK to switch to synthetic at the first scheduled oil change. And those folks DO strip down and inspect engines. Is that concrete enough?

And may I ask how many modern Honda engines YOU have stripped down after break in to ensure proper seating of rings and cylinder walls?

[madbrain]

Of course it is OK, you do not need all your Super-Duper Big-Wig Honda techs to convince me of that. Question. Alot of engines are broke-in at the factory is this the case with Honda.

[madbrain]

And may I ask how many modern Honda engines YOU have stripped down after break in to ensure proper seating of rings and cylinder walls?

Do you really believe that the maker of the engine is relative to the basic concept of piston rings properly seating in the cylinder walls. Hondas specifically only one but I have experience with other engines, sorry its only first hand I don't have a team to support me.

By the way dont make a contest out of this, I am to old to argue. Iwould rather continue this discussion professionally. Hence the "not flaming" comment.

[Hondatech]

Argh, once again I'm getting "enthusiastic" about this stuff... deep breath, I promise to calm down...

Anyway, only the S2000 F20C motors are broken in at the factory to any excessive extent (based on their expected use, natch). Good machining processes and quality materials in the normal production line engines allow for fairly quick break in with long life.

In the four years I've worked at the dealership, we've only had to replace one engine for excessive oil consumption due to failure of the rings to seat to the cylinder wall. The vechicle was a 2000 Oddysey, and the cylinder liner on number 4 cylinder had hard spots on its finish which prevented proper ring sealing. We sent the block back to Honda, and they concluded that the failure was due to a bad casting of the liner.

[madbrain]

Thank You and I do appreciate your candor and your specific example and explanation.

I have another thread on the engine forum referring to internals, perhaps you would be able to answer my question. If you would take a look at it.

My name is Eddie it is a pleasure to have made your aquaintance.

[Hondatech]

Eddie, I'm Sean. Pleased to meet you (shake).

Regarding the rod to stroke ratio of the K20A3 vs. the A2, it will reqire some research. While I have access to all the specs for the A3, Honda treats us and Acura as seperate entities, so I have no direct access to the detailed specs of Acura only products in north america. However, I will get ahold of an ex Honda employee who now works for our local Acura dealership on Monday and get him to fax me a spec sheet for the A2.

[madbrain]

Much ablidged.