Downshifter

[eurosteez]

I downshift like a mofo, more than I brake. Is this bad for the motor? Can the tranny handle? Thanks to anyone who can answer this with knowledge ;)

[Brettnyt]

Haha, yeah, i downshift a lot too... Not to second when i come to a light, but to third... Thing is, when im cruisin at 45 in 5th and need some fun, i will throw it straight from 5th into second... Damn good jump! Atleast we arent riding our brakes!

[ATRIOT]

I downshift for aggressive passing and what not, but on a stop light to stop light basis i dont bother. I'd rather have break pad wear than transmission wear.

[mrfixit687]

you'd rather use your transmission that costs like 2k+ from honda to brake your car, rather than using 50 dollar brake pads to brake your car?

[eurosteez]

Originally posted by mrfixit687
you'd rather use your transmission that costs like 2k+ from honda to brake your car, rather than using 50 dollar brake pads to brake your car?
ouch. harsh perspective but true. Is it really THAT bad for the tranny cuz I've heard all sorts of different opinions on this. Like "Tranny was built to withstand it" and the opposite "its soo bad for the gears". This is why I started this thread. I wanna know the truth about it.

[civic hatch boi]

its ok to downshift as long as you rev match... NEVER engine break your car.. just rev match and it should be fine. downshift, blip throttle

[eurosteez]

I engine brake all the time. only to about 4500rpm. redline downshift when driving aggressive

[oldschoolimport]

only tranny parts that get worn are the synchros, and on hondas they are pretty tough. the clutch is another story. clutches cost like 8-10 times what a set of brake pads do, and is a hell of a lot more trouble to change. I downshift occasionally, but brakes are for stopping. the clutch will wear out soon enough. :D

[bobdobbs]

Like mrfixit and oldschool said: Brake pads are FAR cheaper to replace than clutch disks and/or synchros. By engine braking, you put wear on your clutch, transmission, and engine. It's not like it's a lot worse than when you use your engine to accelerate, but it's MORE wear, like you've driven twice as far. Brakes are designed to slow your car down, and are far, far simpler to service than drivetrain components. I don't engine brake and I wouldn't recommend it. I wouldn't buy a car if the owner told me he regularly engine braked.

[eurosteez]

thank you wise ones (oldschool and dobbs) :smilem:

[iR-VTEC2]

ahh crap im gonna have to change the way i drive :(

[SiR Medic]

Yeah...

That center pedal is their for a VERY good reason!

Also keep in mind, that when you engine brake, your brakelights don't come on. Anybody following you might not notice you slowing down and could rear-end you.

[sniperSI]

I do not see how downshifitng is any worse on your gears then up shifting.

If you slam your foot in jam the shift into 3rd from 2nd and pop the clutch out that will wear the tranny 4 sure.

If you slam your fot in jam from 3rd to 2nd and pop the clutch out that will screw your tranny for sure 2.


If you downshift to slow down the way you up shift to speed up It should make no differance to your gears. Clutch in, off gas, gear in, gently let of clutch, maybe rev match depending on the need.

that whole "brakes are cheap then a tanny" is about out the window as "breaking in the car gently for 500 miles" is.

IMO of course/ :D

[KickerSi]

From what I have been told if you engine break what your actually doing is in affect making the motor turn the other way = breakage. I was told this by many mechanics so I dont like to engine break unless I absolutely have to.

[bobdobbs]

Originally posted by sniperSI
I do not see how downshifitng is any worse on your gears then up shifting.
It's not, and I already addressed that. It's not WORSE wear, it's MORE wear. You're already using your drivetrain to accelerate. Using it to brake as well, INCREASES the amount of work it's doing, putting more wear on it, a more expensive part of your car. If you use the brakes to do this job, you use cheaper brake pads to do the same thing.

[bobdobbs]

Originally posted by KickerSi
From what I have been told if you engine break what your actually doing is in affect making the motor turn the other way = breakage.
Uh... no. The only way to get your engine to turn backwards (without opening it up) is to put it in gear and push it in the opposite direction (e.g., put it in first, and push it backwards).

Your mechanic's right that you shouldn't do it, though.

[streaker666]

Originally posted by bobdobbs
It's not, and I already addressed that. It's not WORSE wear, it's MORE wear. You're already using your drivetrain to accelerate. Using it to brake as well, INCREASES the amount of work it's doing, putting more wear on it, a more expensive part of your car. If you use the brakes to do this job, you use cheaper brake pads to do the same thing.

Hmm, I understand what you're saying and have been trying to find a compromise between engine braking and actual braking (btw, I double-clutch to downshift, or rev-match to make things smoother...and heel-and-toe when I want to go fast into a corner).

But I would think there are circumstances in which you don't downshift puts you in a greater danger... For example, when you're approaching an exit ramp on the highway, you don't downshift? Don't tell me the proper action is to lug around in 5th gear until you come up to a traffic light. Or when you're in a residential zone coming up to a stop light, do you ride your fifth gear until you stop? Or do you put it in neutral? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anyone is wrong here but what's considered the proper action in terms of driving...

I always thought that you should not coast in neutral...or that you shouldn't do it often because you would lack the maneuverability to take evasive action if some idiot decides to cut in front of you just to take the first spot at a traffic light (there are a lot of those idiots in Toronto)...I know that it doesn't take that much time to put your car back into gear but time is still required and you don't have much time in those situations.

[bobdobbs]

I make a distinction between downshifting and engine-braking. Downshifting is when you're slowing down, and intend to keep moving without coming to a stop. There's nothing wrong with slowing down, matching revs, and putting it in a lower gear. Using the engine entirely to slow down can be dangerous, however, if you mis-judge your speed and the rpms your engine will hit once you shift into the lower gear. I'd say you still should use your brakes in this situation.

Engine-braking to me, means you're coming up to a stop and you slow the car by downshifting, letting your engine rpms rise and then fall, working your way down through the gears, until you finally apply the brakes, in neutral. In this situation, it would be better to use your brakes to do the majority of braking, rather than your engine.

[BlackNRedSi]

if you know how to downshift right (use your breaks AND your tranny) you will be fine....now if your just using the tranny to slow the car down, stop that...

if you downshift and yoru RPMs dont go jackin up, you are fine...imo if you downshift and your RPMs go higher then what you were @ and it sounds like your engine is screamin, stop downshifting! :)

eric

[brendanSI]

Originally posted by iR-VTEC2
ahh crap im gonna have to change the way i drive :(

[bao_pay]

that the manual tells you to downshift + brake to slow down. When you upshift when driving hard you're shifting at like 6000+ rpm. When the clutch engages at 6000+ how is that worse then downshifting from 80km to 60 km at about 3500 rpm? Its not. IMHO you should downshift because its safer (adds probably like 30% stopping power. Even though it might cost you more at the gas pumps why the hell not? You're going to get the lightened flywheel eventually so why worry about taking it to the mechanic? Brake pads aren't the only part of the braking system, don't forget about rotors which will warp easily if you're just mashing the brakes due to intense sudden heat and cooling especially when its wet!

[bobdobbs]

Originally posted by bao_pay
When you upshift when driving hard you're shifting at like 6000+ rpm. When the clutch engages at 6000+ how is that worse then downshifting from 80km to 60 km at about 3500 rpm? Its not.
Okay, I'm going to say this AGAIN: It's not "worse" it's *more*. You're using the components of your drivetrain to do what your brakes are designed to do. It's dumb because the components in your drivetrain (clutch, tranny, CV joints, your entire engine, etc.) are much more expensive to service and replace than your brakes, including rotors. Your drivertrain gets plenty of use when accelerating; you should give it a little bit of a break when decelerating.

I know it makes a super cool sound and it's fun, but from a reliability standpoint, it's not a good idea.

[oldschoolimport]

also, keep in mind that the clutch disk is linked to the tranny and on to the drive wheels. the flywheel and pressure plate are connected to the engine, and the tach. when you down shift, the clutch disk will spin at the rpm of that gear tied to the tires. so if the engine redlines in 2nd at 50 mph, and you are cruising at 80 and downshift to second, even if you keep the clutch pedal pushed in, the clutch disk will be spinning over 13000 rpm. with fiber clutches, like we have, there is a phenomenon known as "birdnesting". that is where a clutch disk is over spun and the fiber comes apart. when this happens, the marcel springs(flat springs between the clutch facings) and the rivets are all you have left of the clutch disk. the local toyota dealer had a celica come off the truck and the truck driver birdnested one upon delivery. basically what I'm saying is never drop multiple gears before slowing down. your clutch may thank you.

[eurosteez]

well with all that said,
I'm saving the hardcore downshifts for the mountain road. There are some daily situations where it is totally necessary though(yellow lights, traffic jams) but I need to stop downshifting at every stop dammit:(

[BlasTech]

its always nice to have your brake lights come on when you want to slow down...especially if Im driving behind you. :D

[sniperSI]

Originally posted by bobdobbs
I make a distinction between downshifting and engine-braking. Downshifting is when you're slowing down, and intend to keep moving without coming to a stop. There's nothing wrong with slowing down, matching revs, and putting it in a lower gear. Using the engine entirely to slow down can be dangerous, however, if you mis-judge your speed and the rpms your engine will hit once you shift into the lower gear. I'd say you still should use your brakes in this situation.

Engine-braking to me, means you're coming up to a stop and you slow the car by downshifting, letting your engine rpms rise and then fall, working your way down through the gears, until you finally apply the brakes, in neutral. In this situation, it would be better to use your brakes to do the majority of braking, rather than your engine.


Funny. I consider downshifting when you go from 5th to 4th to increase speed or put you in a better gear for more power.

I consider engine breaking any kind of downshift weather it be 1 or 3 to slow the engine down.a

I usually only downshift lets say, 4th gear going 60, hit the brake some drop it into 2nd around 40 and slowly let off the clutch.

Either way i'm sure it causes MORE wear not WORSE wear on your tranny, but any tranny driven right should last at least 200,000 miles, My sisters owned Hondas w/ trannys never needed to be replaced once with that mileage, and they downshift (where i learned) so i really think its negligible the amount of increased wear on your tranny from downshifting.

[eurosteez]

Originally posted by sniperSI

I usually only downshift lets say, 4th gear going 60, hit the brake some drop it into 2nd around 40 and slowly let off the clutch.

Thats really close to what I do too. For each his own I guess but theres an ideal combo of brake and engine that should used to slow down. I'm thinkin more brake for daily use, more compression brake for aggressive driving on curvy roads.


BTW, does anyone else love the sound of a nice downshift, like going into 2nd at 50 or so......like whhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeoooooooooooooo ooo. It makes me feel special:D