Does anyone here know what a spoiler is used for?

[onebadz28]

I don't normally troll, but i was reading some posts in your aerdynamics forum, and i was laughing out loud.

Seems a lot of people think they are getting downforce from these things. And that somehow improves your handling. Which is true for a rear wheel drive car.

But when your are going on the highway and the air is pushing your spoiler back it's slamming your rear tires down so you can countiue getting faster without your car "floating". If it's slamming your rear tires down your front tires are gonna come up with less weight holding them down. Meaning in a front wheel drive car your getting your drive tires off the ground and dragging your rear ones that have added weight on them.

The same rule applies to every type of racing. The spoiler its self does little good for a normal car, so it isn't really hurting the performace of a front wheel drive car...but it sure as hell isn't helping anything it's actually slowing it down to a small degree.

I'm sure most people know this, but i think it needs to be said for the people that don't.

[Mugen_EP]

Ok now I would say your half right. Now on a FWD car around the twisties or up in the canyons your back end tends to slide out. With a wing that is actually built to create downforce it helps keep the rear tires stuck to the ground which in turn helps performance.

[onebadz28]

Originally posted by Mugen_EP
Ok now I would say your half right. Now on a FWD car around the twisties or up in the canyons your back end tends to slide out. With a wing that is actually built to create downforce it helps keep the rear tires stuck to the ground which in turn helps performance.

BUT....a spoiler only works at high speeds, and if your doing high speeds in the "twisties" and the air is actually causing some downforce, it all goes back to your front tires lifting off the ground a little. Which in most cars, your STEER with the front tires.

Spoilers are made for drags, and circle tracks. i would strongly advise agaisn't having that setup on a high speed road course.

[Mugen_EP]

I understand what you are saying but when the rear end slides out that is how most people lose control and get into accidents. The rear wing does help in that aspect, while it may be a very small impact it still exists.

[onebadz28]

Originally posted by Mugen_EP
I understand what you are saying but when the rear end slides out that is how most people lose control and get into accidents. The rear wing does help in that aspect, while it may be a very small impact it still exists.

That's what wide sticky tires are for.:D I know all about a rear end sliding out.

[Omen]

For a rear wing to provide any useful downforce in the relatively slow "twisties" it would need the numerous uprights found on WRC cars of late such as the Ford and Subaru entries.

Otherwise the lateral movement of the air over the rear wing when the rear comes out has little stabilizing effect. Rear wings/spoilers work on long straights and at high speed because air is moving over them front to back or close to it. In a situation described above (twisties) that lateral movement means air moves over only a small cross section of the wing.

[Surprise]

The air that travels along the top of the car has to travel further than air underneath the car (as with an aircraft wing), so pressure is reduced. Cars do get some downforce do to the hood, windshield. But from their on, only lift is created. So most cars will begin to lift at speed, with more lift at the back. The wing in the back is to counter this, thus "planting" the reat wheels creating a more stable car at speed.

Wings on most non racing cars are more of a function of smoothing the airflow and reducing the amount of low air pressure behind the car (otherwise we wouldn't need a rear wiper). Both of these factors will reduce the amount of drag, increasing MPGa nd reducing smog.

The amount of downforce we are talking about (less than 1/10 of weight)is not enough to "lift" the front end.

[chubbychu]

Originally posted by onebadz28


Spoilers are made for drags, and circle tracks. i would strongly advise agaisn't having that setup on a high speed road course.

lol..whatever happened to looks? im not talking about a FAT aluminum 2f2f wing or a huge "scorpion" style wing. but just something tasteful. take the ctr for example :D

[onebadz28]

Originally posted by Surprise
Wings on most non racing cars are more of a function of smoothing the airflow and reducing the amount of low air pressure behind the car (otherwise we wouldn't need a rear wiper). Both of these factors will reduce the amount of drag, increasing MPGa nd reducing smog.

hahahahaha.....oh what, i don't think your joking....you don't really believe that do you?

[chubbychu]

i dunno about all that, but i do know, people with wings rarely go fast enough for it to really take a big effect. and if they DO go fast enough they usually dont care about what its doing, rather than how it looks

[onebadz28]

Originally posted by plainol2k2si
i dunno about all that, but i do know, people with wings rarely go fast enough for it to really take a big effect. and if they DO go fast enough they usually dont care about what its doing, rather than how it looks

My car did 162mph when it was stock and i don't have a spoiler on mine. i see very few fbodies, vettes, and mustangs that have them. And they are rear wheel drive. It's just funny when you see a FWD "family car" with a tripple decker park bench on thier trunk. It's just silly.

Look fast > Being fast

[Brettnyt]

Originally posted by plainol2k2si
lol..whatever happened to looks? im not talking about a FAT aluminum 2f2f wing or a huge "scorpion" style wing. but just something tasteful. take the ctr for example :D

EXACTLY!!! :D

[onebadz28]

a normal clean spoiler looks good on almost any car....but i'm talking about the park benches.

[chubbychu]

Originally posted by onebadz28
My car did 162mph when it was stock and i don't have a spoiler on mine. i see very few fbodies, vettes, and mustangs that have them. And they are rear wheel drive. It's just funny when you see a FWD "family car" with a tripple decker park bench on thier trunk. It's just silly.

Look fast > Being fast

like i said, sometimes, a little added looks mattter more to a person than the added "peformance". whether or not it is tasteful or just plain ricey is up to the individual. but i totally understand those crazy ricers (all races) and their triple deck spoilers

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by onebadz28
a normal clean spoiler looks good on almost any car....but i'm talking about the park benches.
so why are you asking us? I don't think anyone here has a park bench on their car on this site.

[Omen]

I don't think anyone here has a park bench on their car on this site

What about "Rich"?

[Surprise]

Originally posted by onebadz28
hahahahaha.....oh what, i don't think your joking....you don't really believe that do you?

Umm yeah, I do. A properly desighned spoiler will do all these things. Take a few fluids classes and then tell me why you don't believe it.:yellm:

Yes the big fiberglass wings, or any non wind tested desighn main purpose is to do one thing, make the car look better in the eyes of the owner.

[chubbychu]

Originally posted by Omen
What about "Rich"?

well with ANY car you are going to get extremists in both performance and looks categories. yes yes even 'vettes and 'stangs have ricer owners.

the point is, you are right about the whole downforce with a FF car thing. and, it was helpful, but there are other places that need to hear it more than we do.

[raiyo]

What I know is that a spolier is used to create downforce for the rear. This all depends on what type of spolier (adjust) and its location. Of course.....and looks.

[rs_1101]

so far as i can tell, the mugen spoiler serves a few purposes in a proper ground kit setup.

in the front ideally, you have a spoiler effect, pushin the front of the car down, now if you look at our hatchback, the rear window slopes down gracefully. in the areonautical industry this is known as an "airfoil".

w/o a spoiler on our hatches, the rear end tends to literally take off, as the hatch creates a large low pressure vacuum pulling the car up and back. this is drag and lift.

the stock spoiler is designed to avoid creating a large lift area by deflecting air up and back. this creates a small vaccuum area under the spoiler, which gets rather dirty (evidence) the closest shape to aerodynamic perfection is a wedge with a flat back. less surface area for wind to react on. what (for example) the mugen spoiler does, is it extends the top profile of the car back, over the rear window to create one LARGE vaccuum, which is basically a wedge with a flat back, as air no longer reacts on the back window, decreasing lift, and by decreasing the overall surface area for wind to react, decreases drag.

and alitte downforce in back shouldnt hurt rear traction

[chubbychu]

hey im learning about lift and drag in physics this week. :D

[rs_1101]

i havent taken physics yet.. gonna take it this semester.. cant wait to learn about thermodynamics so i can make my own cf intake and be rich rich rich, but the point is, the ctr and mugen spoiler are there for a reason other than looks. honda doesnt do stuff like that for "looks" looks arent economic. theres a reason for the ctr spoilers size

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by Omen
What about "Rich"?
? who's rich?

[02SilverSiHB]

oh and just for the record...wings don't do shizat for ff cars...daily drivers anyway...shit even fr drive cars don't have them for daily drivers

[EnJaNir]

Originally posted by rs_1101
i havent taken physics yet.. gonna take it this semester.. cant wait to learn about thermodynamics so i can make my own cf intake and be rich rich rich, but the point is, the ctr and mugen spoiler are there for a reason other than looks. honda doesnt do stuff like that for "looks" looks arent economic. theres a reason for the ctr spoilers size

You'll need some material science courses/material selection plus a few thermo courses, specifically systems if you really want to make that intake to function properly

[ljasonl]

Originally posted by onebadz28
Seems a lot of people think they are getting downforce from these things.

Are you saying they don't add downforce? Of course they do, the question is whether it's useful.


And that somehow improves your handling. Which is true for a rear wheel drive car.

More downforce over the rear wheels helps keep the rear end planted in corners, it doesn't matter if your car is FWD, RWD, left wheel drive, whatever. In addition, most cars have a pretty large low pressure area above the trunk, due to air not being able to flow into the wake of the car quick enough. Low pressure above the trunk = lift = unstable car. A spoiler can add just the right amount of downforce to counter this.


If it's slamming your rear tires down your front tires are gonna come up with less weight holding them down. Meaning in a front wheel drive car your getting your drive tires off the ground and dragging your rear ones that have added weight on them.

Noo... it's a car, not a seesaw. Just because you add downforce on the rear doesn't mean you decrease it on the front. As long as you have enough suspension travel that will never be a problem.


Originally posted by onebadz28
BUT....a spoiler only works at high speeds, and if your doing high speeds in the "twisties" and the air is actually causing some downforce, it all goes back to your front tires lifting off the ground a little. Which in most cars, your STEER with the front tires.

Spoilers are made for drags, and circle tracks. i would strongly advise agaisn't having that setup on a high speed road course.

So what you're saying is you know more about road racing than professional level touring cars? Guess what, these FWD cars run wings on road courses. Why do you think that is? Because it makes them faster. You can damn sure bet there isn't a single ounce of uneccesary weight or drag on these cars that doesn't make them faster.

http://drs.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=touring+car/v=2/l=IVI/*-http://www.carkeys.co.uk/images/btcc/hon001.jpg

http://www.motorsportvortex.com/artman/uploads/14_014.jpg


Originally posted by onebadz28
hahahahaha.....oh what, i don't think your joking....you don't really believe that do you?

But he's absolutely right. Just as most cars have a low pressure area over the trunk, most cars have an even larger low pressure spot just behind the back of the trunk. Once again, this is due to air not being able to fill the wake of the car fast enough. The low pressure area behind the car means there is actually suction pulling the car backward, slowing acceleration, lowering top speed, and causing more instability. A properly designed spoiler like the flat "drag style" spoilers that come straight back off the edge of the trunk can actually add downforce due to keeping high pressure air in top with low pressure air underneath, while at the same time, decreasing drag by keeping the air from seperating and becoming as turbulent till it's completely away from the car, minimizing the low pressure area. And as we all know, less drag means more top speed, more MPG, etc... If you look at LeMans type cars, you'll see their back edges are radically different shaped than your average road car, they have a long extension off the back edge that resembles a "V" for this very reason. Contrary to what you may think, the "perfect" aerodynamic shade is actually an elongated raindrop, with the big end on the front and the long tail on the back. This is why solar cars and such are designed with such a shape.


a normal clean spoiler looks good on almost any car....but i'm talking about the park benches.

Park benches, AKA large surface area meaning more area to act on the airflow. Also really high, so they can be up into undisturbed air above the car. Park benches are way more effective than normal spoilers.

[ljasonl]

Originally posted by Surprise
The air that travels along the top of the car has to travel further than air underneath the car (as with an aircraft wing), so pressure is reduced.

What you're talking about is the Bernouli effect (I'm sure I spelled that wrong). This would be true IF there was a reason the air had to meet up at the back edge. For example, if you have 2 particles of air at the front, one goes under and one goes on top, IF they met at the rear at the same time, that means the one on top had to go faster to make the longer distance. But in reality, there's no reason for the particles to meet up, and they would both travel the same speed, the one over the top would just take longer to get there.

[stimpGSX]

how many people here actually care wether or not a spoiler is going to have an effect on the cars performance. I personally like the way they look and thats it. you want to improve performance do something to the engine. turbo , nos ,etc. no spoiler is going to take a second off your 1/4 mile times.

[rs_1101]

were talking more about road racing times not drag. honestly, i think z28 could stand to learn some stuff about actual driving if he has to come in here and ask us about our spoilers, cuz its very small minded to think that downforce in FR cars is the only good for a spoiler.

also.. ljasonl
the raindrop shape u speak of is not the ideal aerodynamic shape for a car. like i said. its more of a wedge, or wed all be driving big raindrops. the reason they do that to solar cars is cuz solar cars cant go fast enough to take off, cuz the raindrop is an airfoil shape.

the wedge shape minimizes turbulence and drag by utilizing a flat back which has less surface area to generate turbulence

[ljasonl]

The flat back is the problem... air can't fill the wake of the car when the car is moving fast, so the space directly behind the flat back is very low pressure, which sucks the car backwards.

" There is a rule in aerodynamics that THE perfect aerodynamic shape is a needle (does not split the air at all). Unfortunately, this is an unrealistic design to achieve in real life, so, what to do?? Here's the answer: The second most perfect aerodynamic shape is that of a rain-drop or tear-drop. You're probably asking why that's so, well, here's the answer. The best aerodynamic shape is one that splits the air apart smoothly in the first 1/3 of the length of the object (in this case a car), and is able to very gently, put it back together in the last 2/3 of the object. It's simply a 1/3 - 2/3 rule. If you have a 9-foot long car, the first 3 feet should be splitting the air (with the widest point of the car at 3 feet), and the last 6 feet of the car should be slowly tapering off to a point at the back of the car. "

Taken from - http://cougarelectric.s5.com/mechanical/

I love aerodynamics :D

[FiL]

i learned so much today

[Hetfield6J]

My friend Paul Walker told me that the bigger the spoiler, the more HP i gain from it. Your trying to tell me this isnt true??? WTF???

[Brettnyt]

Originally posted by Hetfield6J
My friend Paul Walker told me that the bigger the spoiler, the more HP i gain from it. Your trying to tell me this isnt true??? WTF???

LMAO....

Your friend Paul Walker? Sounds like a serial killer name... Is that what he is? Oh well, I like his haircut...

[rs_1101]

tangent:
i wonder if anyone has compared paul walkers acting abilities with thta of keanu reeves

[slc71]

This was taken from another forum, but good stuff.

Bernoulli's principle, physical principle formulated by Daniel Bernoulli that states that as the speed of a moving fluid (liquid or gas) increases, the pressure within the fluid decreases. To make it simple. As the speed of the air moving over your car increases especially in the front where the car is the most aerodynamic it decreases the pressure under the car creating lift. It forces the nose down putting less weight on the rear wheels. A spoiler catches the air on the back end of the car and forces the rear end back to the ground. At speed above about 60 mph, a car with a spoiler WILL be more stable than a car without one. That doesn't mean you need a giant metal wing hanging from your back end. Sorry guys . But all kidding aside you're both right. At slower speeds, A spoiler will produce greater stability. At around 60 you have about the same pressure added to your front end as having a 250 pound man sitting on it, so at 3x the speed (180 for the sake of the arguement) the pressure would increase to about 750 lbs give or take. That pressure is equally removed from the pressure exerted on your rear wheels. The spoiler puts that force back. If you want to show your friend some proof search for Brenoulli's principle of fluid dynamics.