Anti-Lock Brakes [Archive]

BluePearl03Si

12-30-2003, 04:29 PM

ABS is lawyer friendly, just like understeer.

But it has it's place in emergencys and low traction situations, and keeping bad drivers from rear ending you. It may hurt our fun, but it likely saves hundreds of lives every year.

Would it be possible to make it so you could shut off the ABS when you are racing or just want to have some fun? Like shutoff power to the sensors, and the ABS light would go on anyway to remind you your ABS is off so you remember to turn it back on when going back to daily driving?

Originally posted by EP3ME
Bullshit... then how come the guys in F1 don't use them?:D

F1 Drivers have skill, and I don't just mean talent. They know the traction situation very well when they are racing, getting updates on tempature and humidity, and knowing how fast their tires are wearing. They also tend to be fairly spread out along the circuit. And they can prolly handle their brakes better than ABS, and if they don't, well......you can guess.

WRC with ABS....now that would be no fun at all.

Omen

12-30-2003, 04:42 PM

ABS isn't used in F1 because it isn't allowed. Electronic driver's aids were banned not too long ago. Before that F1 drivers did use ABS as well as traction and launch control.

EP3ME

12-30-2003, 04:48 PM

ABS might not be allowed in F1 but I guarantee there is not one self respecting driver on the circuit who would use it even if it was allowed and, actually, launch control 'is' allowed in F1!!!:cool:

younggotti266

12-30-2003, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by dj addicted
all I have to say is try and stop really fast while in the rain... you will appreciate the ABS

Thats why I appreciate it..

Abs = less work & thinking for you

glw

12-30-2003, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by EP3ME
Is it really that easy... does that creat any other problems?:cool: i think it's even easier - iirc there are two fuses you pull and abs is dead. i'll check the helms and let you know.

edit:
the fuses involved are:
under hood #7(15A), 8(20A), 10(40A), 19(80A), 20(40A)
under dash #10(7.5A), 11(7.5A)

it looks like pulling under hood #8 and 10 will do the job. it will undoubtedly throw a code, but who cares right?

you may need to pull under dash #11, too - not really sure what that one does (it goes to the abs modular control unit without explanation).

other fuses:

under hood #7 is for the brake indicator in the cluster - so don't pull that one.

under hood #19 and 20 feed the ignition switch and the under dash fuse block so it's probably best to just leave them alone.

under dash #10 is for the abs indicator in the cluster - so you may want to pull this one, too - if you pull the others and don't want the light on.

i haven't done this yet, but was considering trying it at the next autox...:cool:

EP3ME

12-30-2003, 05:39 PM

Thank you sir!!! I await...:cool:

william

12-30-2003, 06:05 PM

with the stock rubber and brakes ABS will kick in all the time, upgrade those item and you'll find ABS will only kick in when you really need it.

Loudpedal

12-30-2003, 09:52 PM

In the past I always hated ABS as I thought that I posessed enough skill to modulate my brakes in any situation. I'm now pro-ABS.

A trip in the mountains of Quebec in a VW Golf without ABS with the passenger side tires continiously being driven on ice illustrated the fact that ABS is indeed a requirement should you have tires on surfaces of differential adhesion. You could be the most skilled driver in the world, however, without ABS you will never be able to brake the left or right side wheels independent of one another.

I got home safely, but my ass could have made a diamond out of a piece of coal.

Conduire au Quebec l'hiver c'est toujours excitant et c'est un defi.

SiR Medic

12-31-2003, 07:38 AM

ABS = Good thing.

Nobody's "mad drivin' skillz" can possibly match the performance of sophisticated ABS brakes.

Especially in our car, because the Electronic Braking Distribution works through the ABS. This allows each wheel to have different amounts of brake pressure.

At best, I would consider a dash mounted switch to turn ABS off for fun, but that's about it.

glw

12-31-2003, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by SiR Medic
ABS = Good thing.

Nobody's "mad drivin' skillz" can possibly match the performance of sophisticated ABS brakes.

Especially in our car, because the Electronic Braking Distribution works through the ABS. This allows each wheel to have different amounts of brake pressure.

At best, I would consider a dash mounted switch to turn ABS off for fun, but that's about it. i, too, think that abs is a good thing... but during my autox runs it seemed that the threshold for abs was too low. abs would kick in and screw things up. now that i've gotten new rotors, pads, lines, fluid - i don't think i even hit abs anymore. i may try it myself, just for kicks though.

irrational

12-31-2003, 12:23 PM

i like to have full control of the vehicle. i would prefer not to have anitlock but that is just me.

edit : glw is right about the abs being a little to sensitive. i think that it comes on prematurely.

BlasTech

12-31-2003, 12:28 PM

ABS seems to work fine for me.

tony speed

12-31-2003, 01:54 PM

no abs + shock = death

anything that can prevent death because of human error is preferable.

irrational

12-31-2003, 02:14 PM

all i know is when i brake moderatley while cornering the shit goes off and it makes me mad. is it safer to ABS? yes. do i care? no. if you wanna be safe than you should drive safely. most people drive beyond their limits.

tony speed

12-31-2003, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by irrational
all i know is when i brake moderatley while cornering the shit goes off and it makes me mad. is it safer to ABS? yes. do i care? no. if you wanna be safe than you should drive safely. most people drive beyond their limits.

abs isn't really for road racing or anything like that. for instance, imagine being beside a big flat bed trailer full of large metal drums full of something. The things fall of the truck and head straight for you. The natural human response in shock is to dodge the stuff while simultaneously braking. In those situations when turning and braking while under stress and full of adrenaline, it is easy to surpass the limits of traction of the tire. Driving safely will not prevent the unpreventable.

Peking

12-31-2003, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by tony speed
abs isn't really for road racing or anything like that. for instance, imagine being beside a big flat bed trailer full of large metal drums full of something. The things fall of the truck and head straight for you. The natural human response in shock is to dodge the stuff while simultaneously braking. In those situations when turning and braking while under stress and full of adrenaline, it is easy to surpass the limits of traction of the tire. Driving safely will not prevent the unpreventable.

Agreed, also Tony your pm box is full. Check out this thread... http://www.ephatch.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26985

Jon

BlasTech

12-31-2003, 03:38 PM

irrational, your tires might be the cause of that issue. My ABS kicks on all the time with stock tires, and hardly ever at all with Azenis.

irrational

12-31-2003, 03:44 PM

weird. i have upgraded wheels and tires. i have 21-45-17nitto neo gens on some 17x7 work emotions. i commonly run about 40 psi front and rear if that means anything.

BlasTech

12-31-2003, 05:58 PM

Try going with 37 for a week, then 35.

glw

12-31-2003, 06:36 PM

i think during trail braking abs could be troublesome if abs kicks in before lockup really occurs. if abs kicks in before lockup you loose the ability to continue braking normally on your own - and once abs kicks in it doesn't seem to want to let go...

ps: i was on aftermarket tires during my stated experience, but now that i upgraded my brakes - i don't even think abs comes on anymore...

EP3ME

12-31-2003, 06:44 PM

Here's the thing... the average driver wouldn't have a clue about the difference between ABS and regular braking. The better your feel, the less the need for ABS. The ugly modulation you feel while ABS is kicking in is a clear demonstration of technology and its' inability to keep up with human reflexes and technical prowess. I'm sorry but, if you are in favour of ABS you are just another old lady plodding along in my motherf#*cking way!!! Get real, pony up for lessons and learn how to drive properly.:cool:

denmah

01-01-2004, 12:47 PM

at one time i had a 91 chevy lumina without ABS....

trust me, ide rather have the ABS anyday!

n8dawgsmu

01-01-2004, 01:28 PM

abs has shorter stopping distances than "pumping" with all the time and energy we put into are cars to make them work better, i don't get the point of taking of something that makes the car work better. just look at the numbers, with pumping you are forced to let off all of your braking just because one wheel locks up, abs allows you to stop better and more efficently on or off the track, besides who hits the brake in a corner, everyone knows you brake first then turn whether its a civic si, dodge viper, motorcycle, or formula one car.

BlasTech

01-01-2004, 01:49 PM

For a while, I was really torn about not going with a CRX for autocross. Recently, I had the opportunity to run the same course in a 2000lb 91 CRX-Si that had new street brakes installed, back to back with my Si and its stock brake setup.

My only comment about driving the CRX: "I cant get this car to stop!" It was like it had no brakes at all.

Im totally spoiled by ABS, and learned my driving style (Yes, I've taken classes) with ABS. I dont think I could become expert enough to get along without it competitively in auto-x, or as safely on the street.

Loudpedal

01-01-2004, 01:53 PM

Deep snow is the only driving condition that cars with "regular" brakes can typically stop in a shorter distance than an ABS equipped car. I think it was Car and Driver that determined this in instrumented testing. They found that the built up snow in front of a locked wheel benefitted by reducing stopping distances, which will never occur in an ABS equipped car.

Obviously, and arguably the main benefit from ABS is not a reduced stopping distance, but the ability to steer when the brakes are hammered.

EP3ME

01-02-2004, 09:14 AM

...not necessarily true about braking first and then turning. Ascari is commonly held to be the forefather of "trailbraking" which is used extensively in racing to pitch the car; particularly in order to combat understeer. Mario Andretti was known to 'pitch the car' into corners by braking slightly while turning in on a regular basis!!! Incidently, he won the world drivers' championship in '78.

If you own an EP3 and haven't beefed up your rear sway bar, you should know all too well about understeer. Solution: buy the Mugen rear sway bar or, learn how to trailbrake.:cool:

Btrthnezr3

01-02-2004, 09:39 AM

Almost running into the back of this a$$hole who slammed on their brakes in front of me this morning triggered led to hard braking which my ABS and I sure as hell am glad that it did. Although I over reacted because he was far enough in front of me, it still scared me thus the panic and the slamming of the brakes. Shows I can react though, ehh?

I am pro ABS (my first car with it)

02SilverSiHB

01-02-2004, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by Btrthnezr3
Almost running into the back of this a$$hole who slammed on their brakes in front of me this morning triggered led to hard braking which my ABS and I sure as hell am glad that it did. Although I over reacted because he was far enough in front of me, it still scared me thus the panic and the slamming of the brakes. Shows I can react though, ehh?

I am pro ABS (my first car with it)
your avatar freaks me out :D

Btrthnezr3

01-02-2004, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by 02SilverSiHB
your avatar freaks me out :D

Hey thanks...I got really tired of having the EP front on my avatar because I felt like it didn't distinguish me. You know, cuz like you can immediately spot a Bobdobbs, ZerothreeSi, TypeX or TrippZ post by their avatar pics so I kinda wanted to be noticed.
:D
I thought it was cute/weird/funny

03silverEP

01-02-2004, 12:28 PM

it engages way too early while brakeing, in my old delSol (S base model w/rear drums!) the brakes had a much better feel, abs is for non-drivers threshold brakeing is for pros

if anyone knows how to disable it please share

evilep3

01-03-2004, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by 02SilverSiHB
your avatar freaks me out :D yup me too :eek:
abs only because it has saved my ass twice in the rain! my old honda had drums in the back and i agree they do feel better but i have slid pretty far in that car too.

chunky

01-05-2004, 09:14 PM

Originally posted by EP3ME
Here's the thing... the average driver wouldn't have a clue about the difference between ABS and regular braking. The better your feel, the less the need for ABS. The ugly modulation you feel while ABS is kicking in is a clear demonstration of technology and its' inability to keep up with human reflexes and technical prowess. I'm sorry but, if you are in favour of ABS you are just another old lady plodding along in my motherf#*cking way!!! Get real, pony up for lessons and learn how to drive properly.:cool:

what braking upgrades do you have installed on your car?
what kind of tires?
what kind of track experience do you have?

I'm just trying to understand why you're so opposed to ABS. If you properly treshold brake, you will almost never feel the ABS trip in the ep3. A lot of times< bumpy pavement will cause the abs to trip and for good reason - you have less traction availible for stopping over bumpy pavement. On the street, ABS is awesome to have. On the track, ABS is awesome to have.

If you haven't upgraded the stock braking setup, and if you haven't gotten some sticky tires, I suggest you do those things first before you pass final judgement on ABS in the ep3. A lot of people complain that the abs defeats the ability to use trail braking to start the car rotating through a turn, but I haven't found that to be the case at all, further more, If i'm coming around a turn on the street, and I have to stomp on the brakes, my car rotates. If i come around a turn hard, and stomp on the brakes, the ABS won't save my car from spinning out.

All abs really does is help you to steer the car while braking over less than ideal surfaces (bumpy pavement, wet pavement, sandy pavement, etc.)

Also, electronic braking systems are relatively common in professional racing. It's very difficult to police the electronics and it's far too easy to bend the rules on what is and isn't allowed.

irrational

01-05-2004, 09:35 PM

i just wish that the abs would be less sensitive. i have made my abs kick in with out warrant more than 5 times :m:

chunky

01-05-2004, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by irrational
i just wish that the abs would be less sensitive. i have made my abs kick in with out warrant more than 5 times :m:

when you say without warrant, how do you KNOW that the abs was really unnecessary?

It's easy to make the abs "less sensitive." Get better tires. the more traction you have, the less likely it is that ABS will trip.

I run 225/50/15 tires, and it's pretty rare that ABS kicks in during spirited driving. If you're running stock tires, then ABS will trip all the time, but it's not without reason - the stock tires SUCK and offer very little traction for braking.

irrational

01-05-2004, 10:15 PM

ok maybe one out of the five times could have resulted in lock-up without abs. the thing is that i have good suspesnion and good rims and tires. i am dropped on progress springs with both the front and rear progress sways. i am rolling on 17x7 work emotions wrapped in nitto neo gen 215-45-17s.

glw

01-05-2004, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by chunky
...the more traction you have, the less likely it is that ABS will trip... isn't that counter to what abs is all about. even if you have better tires - if you have better (grippier;)) pads/lines/fluid, wouldn't it be easier for those pads/lines/fluid to to lock up the discs?

chunky

01-05-2004, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by glw
isn't that counter to what abs is all about. even if you have better tires - if you have better (grippier;)) pads/lines/fluid, wouldn't it be easier for those pads/lines/fluid to to lock up the discs?

yes, it would be easier to lock up the wheels, even with grippier tires.

I'll put it this way, I could trip abs at 80mph with the yokohama avs es100's with my current brake setup.

but when driving, even if i need to brake at the last minute, the tires have enough traction to where I can slow the car down without tripping ABS.

Irrational: although you have 215mm wide tires, the nitto neo gen tires are far from what I would call a sticky tire. They are classified as an all season tire. a 205/50/15 azenis would probably give you more grip than those tires in a 215.

irrational

01-06-2004, 11:34 AM

they may not be nearly as sticky as the azenzis but. they are worlds better than the stock tire. i would have gotten the azenzis if they came in the exact size that i wanted.

EP3ME

01-06-2004, 01:55 PM

ABS=Rice:p

BlasTech

01-06-2004, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by glw
isn't that counter to what abs is all about. even if you have better tires - if you have better (grippier;)) pads/lines/fluid, wouldn't it be easier for those pads/lines/fluid to to lock up the discs?

I dont think you need to 'lock up' to trip abs, its when the wheels are spinning at vastly different speeds while you're braking. I dont know if thats the exact science of it, but it takes about a day of driving on stickier tires to see how a lack of traction= lots of ABS, and lots of traction= hardly ever use ABS.

Originally posted by chunky
a 205/50/15 azenis would probably give you more grip than those tires in a 215.

The 205 Azenis have an uncommonly wide contact patch that is said to be equal to many 215s and 225s.

Originally posted by EP3ME
ABS=Rice

I think that's extreme. Think of the ITR, the CTR, the S2K, the NSX...

If anything, ABS will keep you from making flat spots on your expensive tires when you lock up. I dont think anyone here could do a braking-intensive course better in the EP without antilock brakes, especially in diverse gravel and wet conditions you typically find off-track...

Somebody prove me wrong, then teach me how to brake better than my ABS can.

Miranda

01-06-2004, 02:32 PM

re: I think that's extreme. Think of the ITR, the CTR, the S2K, the NSX...

If anything, ABS will keep you from making flat spots on your expensive tires when you lock up. I dont think anyone here could do a braking-intensive course better in the EP without antilock brakes, especially in diverse gravel and wet conditions you typically find off-track...

Somebody prove me wrong, then teach me how to brake better than my ABS can.

Racing drivers have been proving you wrong for decades... none of them prefer abs to direct feel. I'm not saying that the average schmoe doesn't benefit from abs: I'm saying that experienced qualified drivers prefer to drive without!:cool:

irrational

01-06-2004, 02:35 PM

well put miranda

chunky

01-06-2004, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by BlasTech
I dont think you need to 'lock up' to trip abs, its when the wheels are spinning at vastly different speeds while you're braking. I dont know if thats the exact science of it, but it takes about a day of driving on stickier tires to see how a lack of traction= lots of ABS, and lots of traction= hardly ever use ABS.

The 205 Azenis have an uncommonly wide contact patch that is said to be equal to many 215s and 225s.

I think that's extreme. Think of the ITR, the CTR, the S2K, the NSX...

If anything, ABS will keep you from making flat spots on your expensive tires when you lock up. I dont think anyone here could do a braking-intensive course better in the EP without antilock brakes, especially in diverse gravel and wet conditions you typically find off-track...

Somebody prove me wrong, then teach me how to brake better than my ABS can.

actually, ABS will typically only step in to prevent impending lockup. Don't confuse this with traction control, which will in fact step in to compensate for wheels that are spinning at a different rate.

Every abs system is different, and a lot of abs systems do incorporate traction control functions (we have EBD, not true traction control, but it does apply increased intelligence to the action of the ABS system).

abs is awesome if you have r-compound tires. it's way easy to flat spot r-compound since the tread is so soft.

chunky

01-06-2004, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by Miranda
Racing drivers have been proving you wrong for decades... none of them prefer abs to direct feel. I'm not saying that the average schmoe doesn't benefit from abs: I'm saying that experienced qualified drivers prefer to drive without!:cool:

on the ep3, you'll almost never feel abs on a road course.

abs however is an issue for auto-x. but a majority of the auto-x drivers that I know who have ABS equipped cars prefer that to non-abs equipped cars.

Lockup is typically only a major concern at lower speeds. f1 drivers are typically going to fast to ever see abs in action if it was installed. the only reason why they say they do not prefer it is b/c they don't stand to benefit from it at all.

BlasTech

01-06-2004, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by chunky
actually, ABS will typically only step in to prevent impending lockup. Don't confuse this with traction control, which will in fact step in to compensate for wheels that are spinning at a different rate.

Every abs system is different, and a lot of abs systems do incorporate traction control functions (we have EBD, not true traction control, but it does apply increased intelligence to the action of the ABS system).

abs is awesome if you have r-compound tires. it's way easy to flat spot r-compound since the tread is so soft.

OK, thanks.

If there is a way to remove the ABS, I'll give it a fair try at an auto-x this year, but it has saved my ass on the streets a few times already.

02SilverSiHB

01-06-2004, 03:56 PM

ABS=Rice :rolleyes: ooookkkaaayyyyy

Anyway, as for autox and abs...I've never had abs engage when I'm on the track...but then again, I'm not as good as blastech :D
Actually, I take that back about the abs thing, it happened once when I lost total control...I guess it depends on the driver?

HondaMan

01-07-2004, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by Peking
I have had a few without anti-lock, all I have to say is I would take anti-lock anyday.

True dat!

Plus, added safety and avoiding flat spots (lockups) with anti-lock brakes.

chunky

01-07-2004, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by BlasTech
OK, thanks.

If there is a way to remove the ABS, I'll give it a fair try at an auto-x this year, but it has saved my ass on the streets a few times already.

I wouldn't bother. it's awesome on the street. and it doesn't intrude on the track.

EP3ME

01-08-2004, 11:58 AM

re: on the ep3, you'll almost never feel abs on a road course.

The reason that you guys aren't feeling that shitty abs kicking in on road courses is because you probably have stock cables. I put the Mugen brake cables on my beast and they are far more sensitive to feel... I sense that stupid abs kicking in constantly and it's dog shit!!! abs=rice

:mad: abs is for nuns and padres!!!

BlasTech

01-08-2004, 12:05 PM

I understand what you're saying, but "rice?"

c'mon. To me a big fat wing is rice, because its not needed, and people do it because racers do it. So you could argue that removing your ABS is rice, "because racers dont need it", even though the lot of us are better off with it.

Its a practical thing, its a safe thing, and thats not "rice" to me.

EP3ME

01-08-2004, 12:16 PM

Well yes... you are right. I am joking when I say "rice". ABS certainly has it's place as an essential safety item. My own preference is to disengage the freggin' thing however!!!:cool:

BlasTech

01-08-2004, 12:28 PM

I gotta admit, you've got me curious about disengaging it too.

I know this guy at the local track who took a girl's M3-roadster out for fun, and it must have had the ABS off, because he flat-spotted her Hoosiers. That little fun run cost him $600. :eek:

02SilverSiHB

01-08-2004, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by EP3ME

I put the Mugen brake cables on my beast and they are far more sensitive to feel... I sense that stupid abs kicking in constantly and it's dog shit!!!
I guess I could see that happening. make since why you wouldn't like it

Low Rider

01-13-2004, 06:29 PM

I've never been big on ABS myself!

pedzola

01-13-2004, 07:02 PM

ABS saved my ass today. Sliding down my driveway (ice) into oncoming traffic I decided to test out just how good this crap is. Jammed the brake down, and lo and behold the car stopped. That metal gnashing feel/sound is kind of unnerving but it worked!

Ocelaris

01-13-2004, 08:05 PM

I was reading somewhere, that adding bigger calipers and/or pressure to your brake setup will mess up your ABS? I forget which site exactly had the info, but they had an EP3 kit, and tons of info on brakes...

The company selling the kit had a 4piston (or something like that) caliper setup of the same internal volume as our caliper... so that it wouldn't be stopping the brakes at an increased speed, which messes up the hardwired ABS sensor. something to the extent that the OEM pressure is known to exert a certain amount of force, and when you add these bigger calipers, hence larger volume, you get more pressure, and either you drain your Master cylinder reserve, or mess up your ABS system which actually increases the stopping distance of your brakes... So I wanna know what these people who dealt with this conflict did.

I mean, Chunky et all whom are pleased with their brake setup, what are you using? Taking into consideration using 225/50/15 rims (which I will upgrade to when my stock tires die)... what options are really available as far as rotor and caliper upgrades within that small size?

This reminds me of John Henry vs. the Steam Shovel... yes, John Henry won, but he died too :p

BlasTech

01-13-2004, 08:37 PM

This is an interesting point the conversation's coming to:

Do certain upgrades throw your ABS off?

Apparently so.

Lurk around in the H-T roadracers forum for a couple of months... all they worry about is pads and fluid. Rotors (usually oem spec blanks) are just another disposable item like tires, and calipers are often stock... and there's a good argument or two about steel vs. oem brake lines, too.

chunky

01-13-2004, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by EP3ME
re: on the ep3, you'll almost never feel abs on a road course.

The reason that you guys aren't feeling that shitty abs kicking in on road courses is because you probably have stock cables. I put the Mugen brake cables on my beast and they are far more sensitive to feel... I sense that stupid abs kicking in constantly and it's dog shit!!! abs=rice

:mad: abs is for nuns and padres!!!

mugen brake cables?

you mean braided stainless steel brake lines?

Brake lines do not affect the engagement of ABS. Wether or not you can feel the ABS pulsing in the pedal, you can always tell when ABS is going off. ABS rarely comes on for me when on the track or on the street.

instead of complainging about ABS, why don't you disconnect it if you don't need it? it's not that hard, all you do is pull a few fuses.

jedimario

12-12-2010, 07:42 PM

Yeah, this thread is a good seven years old, but it's a good thread and I had an experience this weekend so I'm bringing it back up.

For the past 6 months or so, I've been autocrossing an FB RX-7 on RA1s. Manual brakes with no ABS. This car is amazing, and I love to drive it. I had almost no trouble keeping from locking the brakes up; serious effort was required to get any stopping power compared to the power brakes on the EP. Anyway, I was obviously much faster in this car than I had ever been in the EP, even though I'd never had any real trouble with the EP's ABS in the past. For more reasons than the brakes, of course, but being able to take the tires all the way to their limit was a huge plus.

Then, yesterday, I autocrossed the EP for the first time in quite a while. The first time I got into a hard braking zone, the ABS kicked straight in and really killed any stopping power I had. I struggled with it all day and didn't do very well as a result. Thing is, even while trail braking, the ABS was kicking in far before the tires ran out of grip. My tires are not terribly grippy, but the ABS was kicking in far before it should have. I would have been better off locking up my first couple of runs and adjusting for that in my later runs. ABS, when not properly implemented, does severely impede stopping distance.

After my runs, I drove a hillclimb-prepped Miata with power brakes, Hawk HP pads, 7lb 13" Keizers and 245 Hoosier slicks. The opposite happened; first hard braking zone resulted in a 10-20 foot lock up. But I adjusted for it and didn't make that mistake again.

My immediate reaction was to want to disable the ABS on the EP. After reading this thread, I still want to, but I want to figure out just where the car's and tires' limits are and see just how big of a difference it makes. The things said in here made me think, but I'm not convinced. I still think a skilled driver that doesn't panic in extreme situations (and I know I do not easily panic behind the wheel from past driving experience) can be a safer driver without blanketed electronic aid. But for the average Joe that knows nothing about driving, ABS is obviously safer.

Drew1d

12-13-2010, 01:57 PM

ABS stops a car faster...it just does. If it keeps going off, put on better tires. (no slip, no abs.)

jedimario

12-13-2010, 03:13 PM

Drew1d

12-13-2010, 09:22 PM

How exactly does it stop the car faster? A continuous stream of pressure slowing the car at the tires' maximum level of grip stops the car slower than switching between some unknown pressure and no pressure at all? That certainly doesn't make mathematical sense.

Each tire and brakes will not have the same forces acting on it, but you are given one pedal to control them all?

The pulsing is jarring, and feels like if you just didn't have it, the car would stop quicker, but it's not true. For us mere humans, that hit the brakes, and don't have the piece of mind to feather, or pump the brakes rapidly just before hitting that oak tree, ABS. If you are that .5% that could can do it better than the machine, I applaud you. But bare in mind, even experts make mistakes, and mistakes with your brakes could cost you big.

On the track, if you feel better without, sure. But on the streets, ABS.

jedimario

12-13-2010, 10:23 PM

So, to amend your statement, ABS stops cars faster for 99.5% of drivers and not everyone then?

Drew1d

12-13-2010, 10:34 PM

So, to amend your statement, ABS stops cars faster for 99.5% of drivers and not everyone then?
Sure. But driving on the street, I'd say the number is closer to 100%.

That's not to say, there aren't some. Yet, I think everyone is better off not disabling it. I went back and re-read your post. I could see that on a track you might not want it. And to be frank, it's more fun to slide a little. It's that getting to know your car thing. But that's a controlled environment.

Now, some kid, who just thinks there better than the machine, that disables ABS, probably needs it. Especially in rain or snow. Plus a lot of people don't keep up on maintenance of the car. Thinking their tires have the grip, but they're worn. I mean, ABS isn't going to save you from driving like a butthead, or make the deer not jump in front of you, but it doesn't hurt. I think it's human nature to jam on the thing that stops the car in the emergency situation. So I'm very pro ABS.

So I can say with a high degree of confidence, that ABS stops the car quicker.

Zzyzx

12-14-2010, 10:13 AM

The issue on track with this particular ABS system is that its a simple 3 channel setup. Meaning the two front wheels have their own circuit, where the rear two share one.

What that means to you and me is that when you trail brake that inside rear wheel gets light and can easily start to skid (or dog leg and lock up). The ABS, being a simple 3 channel, ends up blocking out both rear tires once one of them starts to slip.... which reduces your braking at the rear end & reducing the effectiveness and usefulness of trail braking all together.

So, if you are complaining about ABS on track this is more then likely what you are experiencing.

As far as being able to stop faster with out it... that to me is irrelevant, as the real question is consistency, especially on the street. You may be able to out brake ABS in a controlled environment, but it is highly unlikely that you will be able to repeat that level of control when its an emergency; less so if its in a low grip situation.

For me, I disable ABS for track and autocross because it gives me better control of the car, not because it may allow me to slow the car faster. On the street, I enable ABS, because you never know when you have to slam on the brakes. Also, if you get in an accident and they find your ABS was disabled... you better hope you were not the cause of the accident, or even partially at fault....

jedimario

12-14-2010, 12:53 PM

So I can say with a high degree of confidence, that ABS stops the car quicker.

Yet you admit that in a completely controlled environment where a machine could depress the pedal with the optimal pressure, it would always stop shorter without ABS. OK.

The issue on track with this particular ABS system is that its a simple 3 channel setup. Meaning the two front wheels have their own circuit, where the rear two share one.

What that means to you and me is that when you trail brake that inside rear wheel gets light and can easily start to skid (or dog leg and lock up). The ABS, being a simple 3 channel, ends up blocking out both rear tires once one of them starts to slip.... which reduces your braking at the rear end & reducing the effectiveness and usefulness of trail braking all together.

So, if you are complaining about ABS on track this is more then likely what you are experiencing.

Thanks for the info, makes perfect sense.

Would you mind sharing how to disable ABS without compromising other systems in the vehicle and retaining the ability to turn it on again? I haven't been able to find a straight answer to that question.