Lots of Questions

[Hatch02SI]

Current mods: hondata img/aem v2 intake/dc ceramic header/hks hi-power exhaust/es motor mounts.... Should i just do a base a3 flash first and would that put me in the mid 14's???



Okay well i've been planning on a lot of things for this spring and summer and its about that time to decide on what i want to do... The question is if i get itr pistons and install them in the a3 block as well as use a type s head with a spoon gasket .5 + on there. then i was going to upgrade the throttle body, intake manifold and maybe skunk2 cams for the a2... could i use the base reflash to give me optimal results? or what could i use for better results???

thanks

jon

[4g63dsm]

just get an a2 swap for all that money.

[Payntech]

If you are looking for mid 14's, get the reflash for now and we will be coming out with A3 cams that will help you get there. With a good tire and Hondata you should be there now.

[fsugatorbait]

Originally posted by Payntech
If you are looking for mid 14's, get the reflash for now and we will be coming out with A3 cams that will help you get there. With a good tire and Hondata you should be there now.

Any idea on a release date for the cams? Also do you think that with the current A3 flash from Hondata would aftermarket cams would work or would we have to upgrade to the programable flash?

[bgsteve523]

damn good question I wanna know the same!

[Hatch02SI]

Originally posted by bgsteve523
damn good question I wanna know the same!

yeah thats why i am waiting right now before i decide to spend more money.

jon

[Payntech]

Any idea on a release date for the cams? Also do you think that with the current A3 flash from Hondata would aftermarket cams would work or would we have to upgrade to the programable flash?

I am hoping to have something to test in the next 2 weeks. Final release will probably be in the spring. I am looking for a good street cam that will give gains of 10-15whp.


A3 cams eh? Interesting. Ever think about using the A3 intake setup on the exhaust side and develop cams for that?

That would not gain us anything as that would only make the exhaust side change from 1 to 2 valve operation. It would not help in the HP department.

[Payntech]

I think you are missing the point here.

Having a lower lobe, more like the size of the primary and secondary lobes on the A2, you would match the flow. That said, including the higher lift on the exhaust, take a note from the A2 head, you could improve the flow depending on the cam setup. What is involved here is similar rocker arms for the exhaust side and rocker shafts. Use the same rocker amrs avaliable on the intake side of the A3 and develop some rocker shafts and cams. Then turn up the vtec engagement to about 4.5 k. Done!

No, I get the point...

It would not work like you are saying in the real world. The engine would see the timing on the larger lobe and that would kill the cylinder pressure. The lost cylinder pressure would hurt torque.

Making power is not all about flow.

BTW- who did your A2 head swap?

[DavidT]

myeverlovinsir I get ur point but I don't think it will work well. Our motor will be running on 8 valves until 4500 RPMs (Or whatever VTEC u set it at)...you'd need an awful lot of lift for the motor to make the same amount of power to 4500 RPMs on 8 valves. With that much lift, it probably won't idle very well (Maybe not at all) on 8 valves. Might as well run VTEC killer cams :)

And Hatch02Si, you can't use the base program for the A2 head. It won't work very well and limit it's power (A3 Hondata program is @ 7700 RPMs, stock A2 ECU is at 7900 RPMs...VTEC engagements are different as well) You'd need to get a Hondata A2 program for you to get the best results out of your A2 head.

[Payntech]

I think you are confusing tq and hp in the same sentence. HP = (Torque * RPM) / 5252. Use it, believe it and work with it. Increase one and get the other. They are inter-related. Flow and tq are more related when it comes to the A3 setup. Dyno time spent my friend. Increase the flow in the head and you improve tq. Measurements of the flow rates, not volume in the A3 head are better than the A2 head and is why they have better tq values stock. Volume is where the A2 head exceeds and is why you will gain hp. hth.

Usually when people are talking about the bottom end of the power curve they refer to torque and not HP. But honestly, I don't see why that was brought into this. We were talking about power production be it referred to as torque or HP. And if you want to talk about dynoing; I have been building, dynoing, computer modeling, and racing engines for over 15 years. I currently own a MD AWD chassis dyno which has seen everything from a 60whp fiat to a 1050 wtq Cummins powered Dodge truck and yes I referred to hp and tq in this sentence. I also worked with Dart developing the Dart B-series Honda block and observed many different iteration of thier NHRA Pro Stock program. So now that you know my background, lets talk about the EP3, because I wasn't looking to turn this into a pissing contest.

Going back to your original plan of running one larger and one smaller lobe on intake and exhaust, you wouldn't gain anything worth talking about. At low engine speeds lift would only stall the port speed and actually fill the cylinder less than a lower lift. Making HP or TQ (What ever you feel comfortable with) is directly proportional to the Brake Mean Effective Pressure (BMEP). BMEP is why cam timing (Duration and centerline of the lobe) is very important, too much or too little will make the engine inefficient in a given RPM band. To maintain proper valve dynamics the lift has to be somewhat proportional to duration, you can't have a bunch of lift and no duration or vice versa. The reason the A2 head makes more power is that it has 228deg @ .050" on the intake and 218deg @ .050" on the exhaust compared to 197deg @ .050" on the intake and 187deg @ .050" on the exhaust. If someone made a set of cams for the a3 engine that had similar numbers to the A2 cams they would make similar power to what you are making right now. The reason A3 engines make more power in the midrange is that they have more cam than the A2 does on the primary and secondary lobes. We have built b-series engines with killer flow heads that made very slight increases in the upper torque/HP range and hurt low end torque/HP. We have tested manifolds that increase flow and hurt low end torque and helped high end torque/HP.

Have you flow/cc'd both the A3 head and the A2 head? Do you have numbers to back-up your statement?

I will have flow numbers and port volumes on the A2 head and my K24 head by the end on the week.



I did my head swap. Hello!

Where did you do the swap? It looks like you did it at a shop?

[Vertigo]

The Hondata programable flash has been delayed until March 1.:(

[Payntech]

Dude, if what you say is worth the paper it's printed on...I am running the A2 head. Use that as an example. I have no problems with having my intake match my exhuast cam. You will need to have the same lift and duration for the intake and exhaust (matched) for it to work properly in the A3 head. I know the A2 and A3 heads are the same port wise and have the same size valves. Lift, arms, rocker shafts and vtec engagement are what is lacking. You cannot say that you would get the same gains from cams in the A3 setup.

You need to go away and think about this as you are talking in circles. If the intake manifold is the same, exhaust system is the same the head port and valves are the same and you put a cam in the A3 that matches the VTEC profiles of the A2, it will make the peak power of the A2 head swap. Granted you will see a loss in the lower revs since you do not have the low cam (A2 primary and secondary)profile, but that is why it is not practical for a street application in the A3 head.




The resonating tq is why the A3 outperforms the A2 in the mid-range tq, due to increased flow near 4.5k rpm. This has nothing to do with the higher lift cams as I have shown on the dyno. I appreciate your insight, however the A3 base rsx will also prove you wrong. It has shorter runners and much improved tq due to flow, have you looked into that aspect? Have you ever seen a base rsx tq curve, it runs from over 170wtq from 1000rpm then curves down to near 140ft-lbs at 4k rpm.

Resonance tuning happens from tuning the intake/exhaust runners. If the A2 and A3 have the same ports and intake manifold how can resonance play a part in the tq increase. The base RSX has a dual stage long/short runner manifold like the K24.
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/i=wMjU5NDQ5NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg
This dual runner design changes the resonance point in the manifold for a better torque curve.



Entirely based on flow

Flow does not make the world go round, that is why bigger is not always better when it comes to engines.


Where did you do you head swap? It looks like you did it at a shop?

[Hatch02SI]

Originally posted by DavidT
stock A2 ECU is at 7900 RPMs...VTEC engagements are different as well) You'd need to get a Hondata A2 program for you to get the best results out of your A2 head.

Your telling me to get the base a2 ecu right... Or are you saying flash the a2 ecu??? Wouldn't our motors not make no power up there???
Also if i get the a2 head could i p & p it as well as throw type R cams in it and use a spoon gasket to raise the compression .5 *the question is would that work?

[epee]

Originally posted by myeverlovinsir

I did my head swap. Hello!:rolleyes:

Are you sure about that?

Is this your garage in Indy? Sure looks like a buddy of mine's shop.

http://www.freebmw.net/devin/joes_shop.jpg

[Payntech]

Originally posted by Hatch02SI
Your telling me to get the base a2 ecu right... Or are you saying flash the a2 ecu??? Wouldn't our motors not make no power up there???
Also if i get the a2 head could i p & p it as well as throw type R cams in it and use a spoon gasket to raise the compression .5 *the question is would that work?

If you do the A2 swap use the A2 flash, if not get the A3 flash. It won't matter which ECU you use.

If you swap in an A2 head with Type-R cams you will need an A2 flash. P&P that head would not get you much (if anything) on with stock cams and lower compression. You would need to venture into larger cams, pistons, and a Programmable Hondata ECU.

[TunerSi]

P&P that head would not get you much (if anything) on with stock cams and lower compression.

So your saying the P&P is not worth it? Is this true?

[rs_1101]

omg my eyes glazed over in a blur of a3 a2 ctr and crap.

where to begin... oh yea the beginning. heres what stuck out to me:

with itr pistons you will NOT be able to run a spoon gasket with anything less than 100 octane. compression is TOO HIGH.
skunk2 used 2 gaskets.. im not sure how.

the longer runners in the base rsx manifold cause slow moving air to accelerate and also increase resonance length, but due to overlapping wave nodes, i doubt theyre doing any kind of "Resonance tuning" all those little grooves in our intake are designed to kill resonance, not use it.

if you use an a2 head (type s) use an a2 ecu. other than that ive heard its damn near plug and play.

port and polish isnt much good on our cars, what is good is a 3 angle valve job, but itd be easier to get an a2 head/ecu cuz that way u get some fancy 3 stage vtec, and a stronger top end of your motor.

if you use the itr pistons, make sure you have 93 octane available, otherwise, your shits gonna blow up. best bet is the spoon gasket.

[Hatch02SI]

Originally posted by rs_1101
omg my eyes glazed over in a blur of a3 a2 ctr and crap.

where to begin... oh yea the beginning. heres what stuck out to me:

with itr pistons you will NOT be able to run a spoon gasket with anything less than 100 octane. compression is TOO HIGH.
skunk2 used 2 gaskets.. im not sure how.

the longer runners in the base rsx manifold cause slow moving air to accelerate and also increase resonance length, but due to overlapping wave nodes, i doubt theyre doing any kind of "Resonance tuning" all those little grooves in our intake are designed to kill resonance, not use it.

if you use an a2 head (type s) use an a2 ecu. other than that ive heard its damn near plug and play.

port and polish isnt much good on our cars, what is good is a 3 angle valve job, but itd be easier to get an a2 head/ecu cuz that way u get some fancy 3 stage vtec, and a stronger top end of your motor.

if you use the itr pistons, make sure you have 93 octane available, otherwise, your shits gonna blow up. best bet is the spoon gasket.

thanks pimp... But don't kill yourself telling us whats up. ? for ya what do u have done to ur ride and what are ur future plans?

[gotmean03]

This thread has been amusing and full of knowledge, but I have two questions for you Payntech
1. I saw you state that the k24 has a dual runner intake manifold similar to the base rsx, is this on the tsx as well or just the accord model?
2. On your k24 with a k20 head, do you plan on using the single or dual runner manifold?
3. Sorry thought of another one, does the tsx motor have a true vtec head like the a2 or is it an a3 style head?
Thanks for all your knowledge

[Payntech]

1. I saw you state that the k24 has a dual runner intake manifold similar to the base rsx, is this on the tsx as well or just the accord model?
After further investigation, the only 2 engines that have a dual runner intake are the base RSX and the CRV. The TSX, Accord, and Element all have a cast single runner manifold that is longer in length compared to the Type-S/Si manifold.

2. On your k24 with a k20 head, do you plan on using the single or dual runner manifold?
I plan on running a Type-R manifold.

3. Sorry thought of another one, does the tsx motor have a true vtec head like the a2 or is it an a3 style head?
The TSX has the same VTEC mechanism as the K20A2.

[rs_1101]

let the quote wars begin. lol.


Originally posted by Hatch02SI
thanks pimp... But don't kill yourself telling us whats up. ? for ya what do u have done to ur ride and what are ur future plans?


my rides dead yo, but i had comptech drop in gutted airbox hondata gasket 2.25" midpipe and tein suspension. ima answer more questions later tho i gotta bounce for a few.

[TezGari]

I have a question:

PLease forgive me if its stupid or has been discussed, :D

What do you need to swap a RSX S head into our Si motors?

DO you need RSX S pistons, rods and a ECU? Or does she bolt right up? ALso another question, Where can i find all in one threads about the RSX S head swap? Where starting to look into it, and we got some qutoes from some people for a RSX S head. SOunds easy, but im sure thier are little bumps in the road that may stop someone, such as not matching ____ with ____ because of our slightly diffrent motors.

Thanks for the help!

I know myeverlovinsir did the head swap, but where is his thread?

Thanks guys! ;)

[chunky]

how about some cams with a lopey idle? I wouldn't mind that too terribly much. :D

hell, make us some vtec killers. :D kinda sucks that toda is hte only game in town if you want to go that route.

[Hatch02SI]

Originally posted by trinispeed
I have a question:

PLease forgive me if its stupid or has been discussed, :D

What do you need to swap a RSX S head into our Si motors?

DO you need RSX S pistons, rods and a ECU? Or does she bolt right up? ALso another question, Where can i find all in one threads about the RSX S head swap? Where starting to look into it, and we got some qutoes from some people for a RSX S head. SOunds easy, but im sure thier are little bumps in the road that may stop someone, such as not matching ____ with ____ because of our slightly diffrent motors.

Thanks for the help!

I know myeverlovinsir did the head swap, but where is his thread?

Thanks guys! ;)

The head bolts right up I believe, unless it needs to be milled down a lil. To find info. on head swap do a search for head swaps... I am sure a lot of info will come up. If u get the complete head u will still need piston's and rod's to work on the bottom end... But thats a bitch to do... and thats a lot more money to do it...better off to get a complete a2 motor. I hope that helped a lil' bit... To find an a2 head check ur local junk yards or something...

[TezGari]

Originally posted by Hatch02SI
The head bolts right up I believe, unless it needs to be milled down a lil. To find info. on head swap do a search for head swaps... I am sure a lot of info will come up. If u get the complete head u will still need piston's and rod's to work on the bottom end... But thats a bitch to do... and thats a lot more money to do it...better off to get a complete a2 motor. I hope that helped a lil' bit... To find an a2 head check ur local junk yards or something...

Thanks for the comments. :) THis will aid in my route. Also some shop called SSC did it, i think they did myeverlovinsi's head swap. Im going to contact themt too.