Type S Head with type R cam's and type s ecu with turbo?

[Hatch02SI]

Well I am saving up for type s head and type s ecu with type r cam's and a spoon or mugen head gasket... I wanna do boost after that... Is it possible that I could use my type s ecu to do it? and what about the piggy back systems that the turbo kit supplies would it be efficient to get that or hondata reprogramable?

[SiRman]

Spoon or Mugen head gasket will raise your compression, not usually what you want when boosting.

[dofu]

Originally posted by SiRman
not usually what you want when boosting.

eh... thats what im thinkin.. type-r cams with turbo??? its not that it cant be done, but trust me, if you have that much money to waste, get an nsx and boost it with a jackson racing supercharger kit... you'd be happier with yourself
even if you're pro at this, you'll prob go thru hella blocks tryin to tune it, and so many other parts too... and btw its practically impossible to truly tune...
turbo is low compression, as where anything type-r is high
funniest thing i ever heard was dude walkin into a shop and ordering spoon b18s (capable of 13000 redline) and turbos for em in fast and furious... what a damn waste...

[Hatch02SI]

Originally posted by dofu
eh... thats what im thinkin.. type-r cams with turbo??? its not that it cant be done, but trust me, if you have that much money to waste, get an nsx and boost it with a jackson racing supercharger kit... you'd be happier with yourself
even if you're pro at this, you'll prob go thru hella blocks tryin to tune it, and so many other parts too... and btw its practically impossible to truly tune...
turbo is low compression, as where anything type-r is high
funniest thing i ever heard was dude walkin into a shop and ordering spoon b18s (capable of 13000 redline) and turbos for em in fast and furious... what a damn waste...

So type r cam's raise compression? I just thought they raised the v-tec lift or whatever... Sorry I am trying to do something out of the blue... well kind of.

[fsugatorbait]

Originally posted by Hatch02SI
So type r cam's raise compression? I just thought they raised the v-tec lift or whatever... Sorry I am trying to do something out of the blue... well kind of.


No, the only thing that can raise compression are the pistons and head gasket. The type R cams would be fine, but you definately dont want the thiner head gasket. Personally if I were to do a head swap id go with the JRSC, with hondata programmable flash and call it a day.

[SiRman]

Type R cams don't raise the comp. They will allow more air to flow due to longer duration. I'm pretty sure this would be a good thing for boost as well as NA.

[dofu]

my bad, high compression or low, theres also the vtec your gonna have to work out issues with, at least with the type-s or type-r cams and ecu... unless you get a controller and disable it... thats why they make vtec eliminator cams

[trk]

Originally posted by fsugatorbait
No, the only thing that can raise compression are the pistons and head gasket. The type R cams would be fine, but you definately dont want the thiner head gasket. Personally if I were to do a head swap id go with the JRSC, with hondata programmable flash and call it a day.

bingo. my plans exactly. programmable hondata first, jrsc second, and a2 head or engine swap last.

[myeverlovinsir]

Originally posted by trk
bingo. my plans exactly. programmable hondata first, jrsc second, and a2 head or engine swap last.

I will say BINGO when I can show it! My route is a little different, but A2 head, type-R tranny, stronger clutch, lighter fly and JRSC will all be tuned at once. The JRSC and programmable ECU will be the last part of the puzzle and is on order. The rest are here. I hope to have Doug help a little with the tuning involved. I know that he has seen numerous setups, but this is a little left of center.:D

[trk]

Originally posted by myeverlovinsir
I will say BINGO when I can show it! My route is a little different, but A2 head, type-R tranny, stronger clutch, lighter fly and JRSC will all be tuned at once. The JRSC and programmable ECU will be the last part of the puzzle and is on order. The rest are here. I hope to have Doug help a little with the tuning involved. I know that he has seen numerous setups, but this is a little left of center.:D

yeah the 6 spd. tranny, flywheel, and clutch will come in due time... autoX/track whore in the making... lol :-)

[chunky]

Originally posted by SiRman
Type R cams don't raise the comp. They will allow more air to flow due to longer duration. I'm pretty sure this would be a good thing for boost as well as NA.

typically you don't want too much duration with a cam to be used on a turbo. Too much duration will cause you to leak boost out the exhaust ports during valve overlap.

what you want more of for boost is lift. more lift = more airflow in a shorter period of time.

Personally, I'd rather have a high compression + low boost setup than a low compression + high boost setup. With low compression, when you are off boost, you are way out of your powerband. With high compression, you still make decent power even when not boosting.

[SiRman]

Yeah, I don't know much about turbo tunning.
What you say makes sense chunky.

[myeverlovinsir]

Personally, I'd rather have a high compression + low boost setup than a low compression + high boost setup. With low compression, when you are off boost, you are way out of your powerband. With high compression, you still make decent power even when not boosting.

Ok, what you just said goes against what I am doing. With low compression you gain in flow and can increase the boost to make more power. Not only that you have reduced the effect of detonation. I want lower compression in order to increase boost and improve flow/tq. My aim is not to have high compression during boost in order to allow more air flow/volume and fuel/air mix to the cylinder and have the power to show. I will prove this when I tune, but think you have missed out on a limiting factor, flow volume and velocity(tq) with a low compression when tuning with boost will show better gains than a high comp engine. I doubt you will/can show better gains with a high comp ratio using the same boost than a low comp ratio. just my .02 cents.;)

[Payntech]

Originally posted by chunky - typically you don't want too much duration with a cam to be used on a turbo. Too much duration will cause you to leak boost out the exhaust ports during valve overlap.

what you want more of for boost is lift. more lift = more airflow in a shorter period of time.

Personally, I'd rather have a high compression + low boost setup than a low compression + high boost setup. With low compression, when you are off boost, you are way out of your powerband. With high compression, you still make decent power even when not boosting.
Chunky is right in that overlap is not a good thing for turbo engines, but since i-VTEC engines have VTC the overlap can be tuned out. Therefore the Type-R cams can be helpful in making power (due to the added lift and duration) on a boosted car when properly tuned. When talking about roots/centrifugal supercharged engines we have found that they favor more aggressive cam timing when compared to turbo engines.

Originally posted by myeverlovinsir - Ok, what you just said goes against what I am doing. With low compression you gain in flow and can increase the boost to make more power. Not only that you have reduced the effect of detonation. I want lower compression in order to increase boost and improve flow/tq. My aim is not to have high compression during boost in order to allow more air flow/volume and fuel/air mix to the cylinder and have the power to show. I will prove this when I tune, but think you have missed out on a limiting factor, flow volume and velocity(tq) with a low compression when tuning with boost will show better gains than a high comp engine. I doubt you will/can show better gains with a high comp ratio using the same boost than a low comp ratio. just my .02 cents.
You loose flow (less pressure drop across the valve) and decrease the BMEP with low compression, which will lower your overall power/tq output. The reason for dropping the compression is to decrease the probability of detonation, this is more important with turbocharging than supercharging. Turbochargers put a lot of heat and backpressure on the exhuast side which can lead to detonation, superchargers do not.

Since we are talking about the JRSC kit, you will run out of blower before you make enough boost to make a better power/tq curve. What needs to be considered is that at some point the blower will produce more heat, decreasing the density of the air charge, which will negate the density increase of the added boost. With the Jackson kit, you will find people making more power with higher compression engines.

Since turbos can be sized for different power levels and usually run an intercooler, they are a different story. Although, it is not unheard of for people to run 11-12:1 compression ratios with 30+ lbs of boost with the proper fuel.

[Hatch02SI]

So you all are saying that the type r cam's is a good idea when in fact going to boost in the future... My plan's are to buy the head, p & p (safely) and get type r cam's for it as well as the base s ecu swap... Then I want to put the head on and drive it till the money rolls around for the turbo... I haven't decided which kit to get, but i want the most bang for the buck ya know... anybody know what set-up may go good with mine/others ideas?

thanks,

jon

[myeverlovinsir]

Originally posted by Payntech
Chunky is right in that overlap is not a good thing for turbo engines, but since i-VTEC engines have VTC the overlap can be tuned out. Therefore the Type-R cams can be helpful in making power (due to the added lift and duration) on a boosted car when properly tuned. When talking about roots/centrifugal supercharged engines we have found that they favor more aggressive cam timing when compared to turbo engines.

You loose flow (less pressure drop across the valve) and decrease the BMEP with low compression, which will lower your overall power/tq output. The reason for dropping the compression is to decrease the probability of detonation, this is more important with turbocharging than supercharging. Turbochargers put a lot of heat and backpressure on the exhuast side which can lead to detonation, superchargers do not.

Since we are talking about the JRSC kit, you will run out of blower before you make enough boost to make a better power/tq curve. What needs to be considered is that at some point the blower will produce more heat, decreasing the density of the air charge, which will negate the density increase of the added boost. With the Jackson kit, you will find people making more power with higher compression engines.

Since turbos can be sized for different power levels and usually run an intercooler, they are a different story. Although, it is not unheard of for people to run 11-12:1 compression ratios with 30+ lbs of boost with the proper fuel.


Interesting theory. I doubt they had as much of a problem with the K24 block and lower comp and the A2 head and JRSC. Help me rethink what shortcommings are so crutial to low compression and added boost. Thanks Tom.:angel:

[Payntech]

Originally posted by Hatch02SI
So you all are saying that the type r cam's is a good idea when in fact going to boost in the future... My plan's are to buy the head, p & p (safely) and get type r cam's for it as well as the base s ecu swap... Then I want to put the head on and drive it till the money rolls around for the turbo... I haven't decided which kit to get, but i want the most bang for the buck ya know... anybody know what set-up may go good with mine/others ideas?

thanks,

jon

If you are looking for "bang for the buck", I would stick with the type-S cams. The Type-R cams are not different enough to make a big difference expecially on a turbo engine. They will also push the power up in the rev range, which will stress the A3 internals.

[fsugatorbait]

Tom,
Do you think that the type R clutch will have enough holding power for an a2 head swap with the JRSC or would you recommend going with an aftermarket company. I've already purchased the DC5R clutch/flywheel because I got a price I couldnt pass up, but want to make sure that it will be sufficient for my plans before I put it in.

thanks,
Phil

[Payntech]

Originally posted by myeverlovinsir
Interesting theory. I doubt they had as much of a problem with the K24 block and lower comp and the A2 head and JRSC. Help me rethink what shortcommings are so crutial to low compression and added boost. Thanks Tom.:angel:

The only shortcomings with low compression are lower power numbers. It is actually safer to run lower compression. Now I am not saying that everyone should go build a 15:1 engine and put boost to it on pump gas, but a balance of boost and compression is good on a blower car. For what you are doing, I would just put the blower on and be done, unless you plan on building the engine.

More reasoning:
Since most roots blowers are not efficient at higher boost levels, it is advantageous to run higher compression and keep the boost level less than 10 psi. Hasport is building their K24, raising the compression to 11:1, and still running the JRSC. As a comparison, Hondata has tuned a K20A (11.5:1) that made the same/better power than the Hasports K24 (~9.6:1).

Hope this helps you with your project.;)

[Payntech]

Originally posted by fsugatorbait
Tom,
Do you think that the type R clutch will have enough holding power for an a2 head swap with the JRSC or would you recommend going with an aftermarket company. I've already purchased the DC5R clutch/flywheel because I got a price I couldnt pass up, but want to make sure that it will be sufficient for my plans before I put it in.

thanks,
Phil

If you are going to run the car hard with the JRSC and you already have the transmission off, I would replace the clutch. We also recommend having the clutch/flywheel balanced as an assembly. If you are going to be nice to it and not put on a good tire, then the stock clutch should be fine.:D

The Type-R flywheel is one of the best engineered flywheel I have seen.

[fsugatorbait]

Originally posted by Payntech
If you are going to run the car hard with the JRSC and you already have the transmission off, I would replace the clutch. We also recommend having the clutch/flywheel balanced as an assembly. If you are going to be nice to it and not put on a good tire, then the stock clutch should be fine.:D

The Type-R flywheel is one of the best engineered flywheel I have seen.

The car has been and will be driven hard and see the track a few times a year with slicks. I have the clutch/flywheel sitting in my house now, but want to make sure that its going to be able to hold the extra power. It sounds like you would recommend going aftermarket, which is fine. I had a Centerforce dual friction clutch on my previous car and loved it. From a tech standpoint do you have any experience with them? If not, with the clutches that you've worked with in the past what would you recommend for my setup. thanks again.

[Payntech]

We favor the clutchmaster line of clutches, although we do also sell ACT. For a daily driven car that is occasionally going to run slicks, we recommend the stage 3 which has a Kevlar faced disk with a sprung hub. This clutch has a near stock feel with a great bite.

[fsugatorbait]

Any opinion on the Centerforce Dual friction?

[Hatch02SI]

Originally posted by Payntech
If you are looking for "bang for the buck", I would stick with the type-S cams. The Type-R cams are not different enough to make a big difference expecially on a turbo engine. They will also push the power up in the rev range, which will stress the A3 internals.

So the type r cam's won't make that big of a difference in the long run... I gotcha... Now the next questions are concerning p & p's... I've read threads but is it worth it... I am sure with a turbo it would be beneficial... But idk... As well as what turbo kit/turbo chip that comes with hence (e-manage,hondata-rev hard, elf, or whatever) wouold mate with an a2 ecu... I was thinking bout greddy but then again in the long run i won't be satisfied with t15, I would rather get a t3/t4 unless someone can convince me otherwise... Damn it I am 18 and I need a fast way to make more $$$... I work at honda for 9 an hour 36 hours (school) and I am only bringing home 260 ish a week... 2 of the 4 checks a month go towards insurance and car payments... God life sux... Anybody think its worth it to get a loan? Like credit or anything? hmm

[RMC22]

Originally posted by Hatch02SI
So the type r cam's won't make that big of a difference in the long run... I gotcha... Now the next questions are concerning p & p's... I've read threads but is it worth it... I am sure with a turbo it would be beneficial... But idk... As well as what turbo kit/turbo chip that comes with hence (e-manage,hondata-rev hard, elf, or whatever) wouold mate with an a2 ecu... I was thinking bout greddy but then again in the long run i won't be satisfied with t15, I would rather get a t3/t4 unless someone can convince me otherwise... Damn it I am 18 and I need a fast way to make more $$$... I work at honda for 9 an hour 36 hours (school) and I am only bringing home 260 ish a week... 2 of the 4 checks a month go towards insurance and car payments... God life sux... Anybody think its worth it to get a loan? Like credit or anything? hmm

Okay, quickly... a question...
Why a base RSX ecu? With an a2 head? What does that solve.

But seriously... Are you shitting me? A loan? On car mods? You are 18, of course life sucks. Save. What are you going to do when the unforseeable happens and you are paying a loan off and you don't even own the car or part? Plus you can't even get the loan. But as with everyone else who wants everything NOW... I'll give you my advice.

Just sell drugs.

You obviously are only concerned about driving fast right now, so who cares about the long term consequences, right?

Yep, I'm an asshole. But we must stop the corruption of society and the instant gratification syndrome before it kills our country in the future.
If you want the mods, do what you have to to be able to enjoy them.
Save as much as possible, sell things you don't need?
You have over 500 in your pocket each month. Where the F does it go?

[Hatch02SI]

Originally posted by RMC22
Okay, quickly... a question...
Why a base RSX ecu? With an a2 head? What does that solve.

But seriously... Are you shitting me? A loan? On car mods? You are 18, of course life sucks. Save. What are you going to do when the unforseeable happens and you are paying a loan off and you don't even own the car or part? Plus you can't even get the loan. But as with everyone else who wants everything NOW... I'll give you my advice.

Just sell drugs.

You obviously are only concerned about driving fast right now, so who cares about the long term consequences, right?

Yep, I'm an asshole. But we must stop the corruption of society and the instant gratification syndrome before it kills our country in the future.
If you want the mods, do what you have to to be able to enjoy them.
Save as much as possible, sell things you don't need?
You have over 500 in your pocket each month. Where the F does it go?

First off an a2 ecu is not a base rsx ecu... It is the base type s ecu and yes it does make a difference, due to the new head being on there and the v-tec engagement... To answer your next question about money... Gas is where some goes, then other bullshit gets thrown in there, such as the recently bought type r spoiler, aemv2, and es motor mounts... Now I am trying to save up for the head... Once tax returns come back I will have well more than enough for the head and ecu to get installed... Then the next big ? is the turbo... I guess when school lets out in early may i will be able to work more and more work = more money = bigger paychecks... So in response to ur question I was never given anything in any way,shape,or form... I work my ass off for the car and I am sorry that I not satisified by it... My car is slow and many people who have the same mod's accepts that a 15.2 is pretty slow... I am hopefully gonna sell the i/h as soon as i can when i get the turbo... But first off i am gonna see how much i like the head alone... I am trying for low 14's to high 13's... this can be achieved without a turbo/supercharger or nitrous but in the end a turbo would make me more satisfied... I know u were just replying to my questions and yes u were an adult about it, but don't assume shit about me that u know could not be true... I don't smoke weed, sell drugs, or anything of that nature... The most I do is drink at parties and enjoy my youth :) okay I am done lecturing, sorry this post is soo long I kinda needed to vent from a bad day and i am sorry for taking it out on u kinda.

-jon

[chunky]

Originally posted by myeverlovinsir
Interesting theory. I doubt they had as much of a problem with the K24 block and lower comp and the A2 head and JRSC. Help me rethink what shortcommings are so crutial to low compression and added boost. Thanks Tom.:angel:

low compression has only one advantage, and that's the ability to run high boost on pump gas.

You can make the same power with a high compression setup with less boost. The advantage is that you are less reliant on the boost to make power, so you have better off-boost power, and you will also have faster spool times with higher compression. And also, you will continue to make power in the upper RPM where a low boost setup will begin to fall off when thermal efficency issues begin to take their toll.

If you are just looking for the ultimate drag setup on pump gas, a low compression/high boost setup will work b/c it will allow you to run cheap gas with low boost on the street, and then c12 at the track with the boost turned up.

If you are looking for a daily driver setup or a track setup, the high compression/low boost setup will show better results. You will have less turbo lag which means quicker transient acceleration. You will not run into thermal efficency issues with the blower/turbo during extended track sessions.

oh, and as for the clutch issues. . . . i like clutchnet - they make a full face segmented kevlar unsprung hub disk. kevlar is great b/c it's super kind to flywheels (unlike ceramic/copper/carbon discs) has great friction levels (so long as it doesn't get too hot), but the only downfall is that you need a pressure plate with a lot of clamping force (to ensure that the clutch doesn't slip when the kevlar does get hot).

Why unsprung you might ask? b/c if you shift smoothly, you won't need the springs, and you get more instant throttle response. And b/c it's a full face segmented, you can still start from a stop smoothly.


But I guess for the average driver, i'd still reccomend sprung. =P I tend to be a little more extreme in my preferences. But clutch net also makes more streetable clutches, call them up and talk to igor.

[RMC22]

My mistake.. I thought you wanted the base ECU for the base RSX.. not the stock ECU for a2.

But I didn't mean to make it come off as I was judging you. The whole drugs thing was a joke. Generally my response for anyone who is in high school who wants thousands of dollars. I wish you luck but I still believe that you are getting way ahead of yourself with the speed infatuation.

If you can't afford to fix or replace it, you can't afford it.

[Payntech]

Originally posted by fsugatorbait
Any opinion on the Centerforce Dual friction?

I have not used them on an import car, so I have no opinion. I know the kevlar is more expensive, but is a lot nicer driving than the metallic disks.

[quote]Originally posted by Hatch02SI
First off an a2 ecu is not a base rsx ecu... It is the base type s ecu and yes it does make a difference, due to the new head being on there and the v-tec engagement... To answer your next question about money... Gas is where some goes, then other bullshit gets thrown in there, such as the recently bought type r spoiler, aemv2, and es motor mounts... Now I am trying to save up for the head... Once tax returns come back I will have well more than enough for the head and ecu to get installed... Then the next big ? is the turbo... I guess when school lets out in early may i will be able to work more and more work = more money = bigger paychecks... So in response to ur question I was never given anything in any way,shape,or form... I work my ass off for the car and I am sorry that I not satisified by it... My car is slow and many people who have the same mod's accepts that a 15.2 is pretty slow... I am hopefully gonna sell the i/h as soon as i can when i get the turbo... But first off i am gonna see how much i like the head alone... I am trying for low 14's to high 13's... this can be achieved without a turbo/supercharger or nitrous but in the end a turbo would make me more satisfied... I know u were just replying to my questions and yes u were an adult about it, but don't assume shit about me that u know could not be true... I don't smoke weed, sell drugs, or anything of that nature... The most I do is drink at parties and enjoy my youth okay I am done lecturing, sorry this post is soo long I kinda needed to vent from a bad day and i am sorry for taking it out on u kinda.

-jon[quote]

I would put the turbo on first... you will be taxing the pistons and rods with the RPM the A2 cams are going to give you. The turbo should get you in the HIGH 200whp range if not 300whp properly tuned. I think you will see a lot of people not putting the A2 head on unless they are going to stay all motor or building the short block.

[Hatch02SI]

Thanks man... That helps a lot... My bestfriend suggested the same thing last night and yeah both of u are right... It just the fact that i got the new v2, dc ceramic header, and hks exhaust and when i get the turbo... All my mod's will have gone to waste... But I guess thats the price to pay when going turbo....