New CybernationTurbo Stage I record 2003 Civic SI

[Pir8pete]

New Stage I record 2003 Civic SI 279.5whp 228 tq running Guardian Cybernation's new self-tuning piggy back computer


http://www.cybernationmotorsports.com/

[Hatch02SI]

Originally posted by Pir8pete
New Stage I record 2003 Civic SI 279.5whp 228 tq running Guardian Cybernation's new self-tuning piggy back computer


http://www.cybernationmotorsports.com/

I wonder How much that'll run ya... As well as if it still uses stock engine to pull those #'s.

[BlackSi613nin]

"With our new Guardian EI (Cyber nation

[phatfreeza]

omg... this is making me dizzy... i want... that much ... HP...

[!@#$%]

dayum. cybernation must have seen sfp coming and kicked things up a notch. props to cybernation.

[pLopSI]

UGH... so tempting to just throw this onto my Visa card... but i'll most likely cry my eyes out afterwards.

[Gearhead Geek]

hrm, S13 240SX w/RB26DETT, or this kit....damn my head is startin to hurt

[Brettnyt]

Damn! Those are some very impressive numbers.... That would be... convenient... :D 280 hp.... at the wheels, so... stock WHP is like 137? Damn Cybernation doubles that... :eek: I watched an 00 Si dyno 288.8 WHP.... Pretty crazy...

[S2KplusSI]

Wow, S2000 turbo cars are running 290-310WHP. This EP isn't that far away.

[dofu]

and i was thinkin bout normal aspirated... what was i thinkin bout??? it would cost so much in parts to get even close to 300hp goin n/a...
but it would be nice to have that power without boost... damn... im sooo confused now... i guess i'll sleep on it for a few months or years...:confused: :confused:

[esmith13]

OMFG!

Ok, I'm not worried about the extra 3 ponies but I am intrested in the whole "self tunning" aspect. I have to find out what it would cost me to switch up from the apexi to this Guardian thingie.
Also - it intregues me that they stated the power was made @ 7000rpm... I assume it's not a typo and they have found a way to increase rev limit without hondata...

Oh, I am so calling them up NOW!!!!

Eric :D

[K-Series]

Originally posted by esmith13
OMFG!

Ok, I'm not worried about the extra 3 ponies but I am intrested in the whole "self tunning" aspect. I have to find out what it would cost me to switch up from the apexi to this Guardian thingie.
Also - it intregues me that they stated the power was made @ 7000rpm... I assume it's not a typo and they have found a way to increase rev limit without hondata...

Oh, I am so calling them up NOW!!!!

Eric :D

Eric, they offered to increase my revlimiter but I was scuured. :(

I'm calling too. :)

Steve

[esmith13]

here's the deal on that to my understanding...

The A3 head CAN handle 7700rpms JUST FINE like hondata claims - however it CANNOT handle it under 10psi for very long...

Sooooo - this is one of those "do it when/if you can, but get the head built asap and drive responsably in the meantime" kinda deals.

I'm callin first thing tomorrow... I get an answering machine now, so I guess they closed for the holiday. :(

Eric

[shimmy_yaz]

wow i need to win the lottery so i can get this. That is some impressive numbers


esmith nice avatar :D

[TomR123]

Hot from the cybernation forums:


280whp Civic SI stage I
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another 80hr week.

The self-tuning Guardian was tested last week on a 25psi stage III RSX-S. This week we took the computer and installed it on a stock Civic SI EP3. The car ran perfectly naturally aspirated on 550cc injectors. We then installed a CN Civic stage I turbo kit using no return line and keeping the stock fuel pump in place. Guardian learned and adapted the new environment and auto adjusted the tuning accordingly. So far the Guardian has exceeded our expectations, a 400 whp car, a 280whp car and a stock car all running 550cc injectors were precision tuned without any modifications or any human tuning intervention. With Guardian's EI (embedded intelligence) self-tuning a high power turbo car is no longer a Cybernation dream but a reality.

With Guardian we now have a Stage I Civic that at 7000rpm puts out more hp and tq than most force-fed RSX-S bolt-on s. 279.5whp 228tq. The only upgraded part of the fuel system was the injectors (no return line, no FMU, no inline or upgraded in-tank fuel pump, no Apexi, no BM, boosting to 12 psi). The next step is a revised RSX base model and Civic Si stage I turbo kit that will cost $3699 making it the lowest cost and highest performing bolt-on turbo kit available for those models. The kits will be sold with Guardian revision A at 9 psi producing 270whp 215tq.


HTH

[esmith13]

Originally posted by shimmy_yaz
wow i need to win the lottery so i can get this. That is some impressive numbers


esmith nice avatar :D

yeah, thanks for the hookup ;)

Eric

[redronin22]

damn thats awesome. competition in the market is awesome for the consumer. :eek:

[siver-SI]

Wow. Just wondering two things how will are engine hold up to this? How will are trans and axels hold up?

[esmith13]

Well, I can attest to it holding up. I have the current CN kit running at 9-10psi. My car is a daily driver - and i drive it HARD. I put 8,000mi on it in the 3 months it's been turbo'd so far with no issues...

Eric

[dofu]

"This week we took the computer and installed it on a stock Civic SI EP3. The car ran perfectly naturally aspirated on 550cc injectors."

so this guardian ei is good for any car... boosted or not??? i jus want that, no more need for dyno!!! lol

[SFPracing]

I'm sure you meant Cybernations record not a national record. Remember we're make 300wHP on Most-Wanted's ep3 hatch stock internals, stage 1 turbo with injectors and programmable ecu. Sounds like we're now comparing apples to apples.

[Si3]

as promising as those numbers are, without an LSD & slicks i doubt you'll break 13.5. and that makes me upset as a fellow ep owner. over 4.5k (with install) invested, and your still high-mid 13's. i guess thats 1.5-2 seconds off stock, butin the big view of car horsepower, we are still comming up a little short! :'(

keep on tuning honda lovers, well get there!!!! :D

-=-A.J.-=-

[andy]

Is anyone else going :eek: :confused: over this Guardian unit?
How in the world does it tune "automatically"? I can see it adjusting
A/F on the basis of running lean/rich, but I think I'd rather have
a tuner involved in the process. Hard for me to believe they bolt
on the turbo kit and plug this in and away you go. Really want to
hear/learn more about it.

SFPRacing, any word on when Most-Wanted is going to install his clutch?
Want to see that thing run w/o a slipping clutch.

[SFPracing]

Andy, I agree with what you're saying. Sounds like a reflashed computer to me. :D

Most-Wanted's clutch went in yesterday along with his LSD. He's also removing the factory catalytic converter today. As soon as it's broken in, he's going to head back to the track. With how horribly bad the clutch was slipping before and running 13.8@110 the car should run easy 12's with proper short times.

[Hatch02SI]

Sorry to bug in so what are the asking prices for a full kit for cn and sfp??? I am trying to figure out a way to get some money together... because i will be going down to florida either way for the kit/installation.

thanks,

JON

[03CivicSi]

First, what is the "piggy-back program"? is that just the Guardian or something else?

and what is this Gaurdian? is it a visual controller that sits in the cockpit, an ECU upgrade.. or what? does this replace the APEX'i SAFC?


oh and where can we find these? heh thanks

those are some niiiice numbers;) what is that like about 85% power increase, give or take a few:eek: WOW:D

[Most-Wanted]

Congrats on the new number's CN. Competetion is fierce around here. But, SFP and I still have the record and that's with the cat in place(297.1hp/245tq@9.8psi).

Andy- As SFP replied, the car is waiting to be picked up tonight. I'll do a casual 500 miles for the clutch break-in and to the track we go. I'm also going to re-run it on the dyno. With a good clutch and no cat I'm hoping for about 310whp.

[esmith13]

OK, I spoke to CN on my own behalf :D to find out what's up with this Guardian thingie...

In a nutshell, it is used instead of a S-AFC. It is not a reflach of your ECU. It is a seperate box custom made by CN's techies. It is a piggyback in the exact same fashion as the S-AFC is in that is adjusts fuel based on the stock ECU's fuel map.

Imagine if they made a S-AFC III... And it was capable of reading tempature, a/f ratio, knock, and other things already monitored by the ECU and change the fuel adjustment ON THE FLY just like an AFC can, but automated by computer instead of by hand.

This box will be "adjustable" in general by hooking up a laptop to your car for basic setup like telling it what PSI you are running so if can plug in safe/rich values for the first time you start the car and program itself as you drive from then on out.

There is also a good chance their will be two versions of this computer - one that has the added feature of RedLine increase.

Expected release is sometime between April and December of '04

... Guess it pays to be an existing customer. :D

Oh, that reminds me. I was told it would cost me $300-$500 to purchace JUST the guardian box to install on my car so I can rip out the AFC. I am GUESSING that means like $300 for standard box and $500 for the one with the redline increase - but that is just me guessing. I make that assumption only because anything CN ever quoted me for in the past while in development they released for the quoted price or less, so giving me a range and knowing their may be 2 versions makes me believe this.

Will let you all know if I find out any more.

Eric

[danoonez]

So you still need Black Magic?

[andy]

Originally posted by Most-Wanted
Congrats on the new number's CN. Competetion is fierce around here. But, SFP and I still have the record and that's with the cat in place(297.1hp/245tq@9.8psi).

Andy- As SFP replied, the car is waiting to be picked up tonight. I'll do a casual 500 miles for the clutch break-in and to the track we go. I'm also going to re-run it on the dyno. With a good clutch and no cat I'm hoping for about 310whp.

Cool, will be interested in the results. I drove down to Lonnie's
shop the other day for some wheels, I think he has some pics of your
car on his site.

Just for the record (pun intended), I think the title of this thread
meant more along the lines of "new record for a Cybernation Stage I
kit" than "the biggest baddest turbo kit around". Either way, cool
to see what SFP/Cybernation are doing to these motors. Props to
both.

[esmith13]

Originally posted by danoonez
So you still need Black Magic?

I forgot to mention that part...

As of now with the test Guardian boxes, you need the ELF chip too.

CN is considering incorporating the ELF into it or into a version of it - however if they decide to market the Guardian as it's own thing not specifically as part of a kit (like the AFC is marketed by Apexi) they would be wise NOT to incorporate it so it works on applications that keep the cat.

Time will tell what the retail version holds...

Eric

[Most-Wanted]

Andy-It is great to see everyone pushing further and further. If you don't push the envelope, you'll never learn the full potential. These cars really do have alot of potential as these engine builders are proving. If your ever in the area again give me a shout.

[02SilverSiHB]

damn! way to go CN!

[VBSI]

Well, a 10-20 HP difference doesn't matter to me between kits, but attitude, cockiness and "my dick is bigger than yours" matter big time. I watch from a distance as to how both kits are represented around here and draw my conclusions from that. Now, with that said, I imagine a clutch upgrade will be 100% required in all cases...which is the best or most advised replacement?

[03CivicSi]

Clutchmasters Stage 4

[03CivicSi]

"The next step is a revised RSX base model and Civic Si stage I turbo kit that will cost $3699 making it the lowest cost and highest performing bolt-on turbo kit available for those models. The kits will be sold with Guardian revision A at 9 psi producing 270whp 215tq."

So does this mean they are making a WHOLE new kit? or is it going to be like the current kit except replace the APEX'i with the Guardian EI system?? like.. are we still going to be getting all of those parts on the turbo list or will we have a couple missing even though we're still getting more power(j/w on that one)??

Thanks

[esmith13]

Kit is identical aside from having the Guardian EI and NOT having the S-AFC II. It's also possible if they incorporate the ELF chip that may dissapear from the list as well. All other kit parts remain identical, but the price will be dropped from $4000 to $3700. Probably because it's now 90% profit on the Guardian versus the measly 5-10% profit they made on the S-AFC.

Eric

[esmith13]

Oh, wait...

The Guardian EI prevents the need for a return fuel line! I forgot that part!

So that means alot of the 350psi fuel line won't be in the new kit and a couple fittings as well... Also the secondary MSD fuel pump probably won't be needed - at least for Stage I, but since CN builds their Stage I kit to be good thru stage III (minus internals of course) they may still include it making the assumption that the stock fuel pump won't handle pumping enough fuel for 19+ psi of boost.

I will have to call CN again to find out what's up with the fuel pump scenario... I trully doubt it will e needed for 9psi anymore, but CN used to brag often about their kit being good thru stage III... I'll try to call today and ask.

Eric

[03CivicSi]

Originally posted by esmith13
It's also possible if they incorporate the ELF chip that may dissapear from the list as well.

No ECU? How exactly does the ELF upgrade the stock one? Is it just timing and everything or any redline increase or...?


Thanks

[esmith13]

The only thing the ELF chip does is suppress CEL codes that should not be seen (like the presence of boost)and also acts as an O2 Simulator and MAF Simulator.

So in a CN setup (currently) you have:

Stock ECU - acts normally and swears the engine is completely stock.

ELF Chip - O2 Sim., MAF Sim and supress the Stock ECU's complaining about boost presence, rich fuel conditions, etc. ELF chip is a TEMPORARY flash module. When you first start the car it "flashes" the stock ECU to do it's bidding and then does absolutely nothing untill the car is turned off and then on again at which time it flashes the ECU again since it's flash isn't permenant. You could literally disconnect the ELF once your car is started and function normally.

S-AFC II - intercepts the stock ECU's fuel settings and modifies them on the fly to what is needed for the turbo/larger injectors to be happy and run at a good A/F ratio.


In the NEW setup they are working on you will have:

Stock ECU

Guardian EI

ELF Chip if not embeded in the Guardian Box


I can imagine EXACTLY how the Guardian works... If you've ever been involved in Dyno tuning your own car it very simple.

On the dyno, the car is driven under normal load. With the guardian you literally drive it.
With the dyno and the guardian, you start with overly rich settings to be safe, and back out excess fuel as you tune to perfection.
You continue to back out more fuel till you reach an optimum A/F ratio which is determined by a tailpipe sniffer on the dyno that is a wideband O2 sensor. This is the only part I haven't exactly figured out about the Guardian. Only thing I can think of is that the now defunct secondary O2 sensor on our car is good enough to determine the A/F ratio fairly accurately and the guardian uses that to tune with instead of how you use a wideband O2 sensor on a dyno. Maybe CN has a wideband sensor included with the new computer to swap out with the secondary O2 we have now???

It could work. Alls that means as while your driving with whatever it determines to be your current fuel map, it's always checking current performance at a specific RPM/Throttle position so it can update the fuel setting for the next time you hit that exact RPM/Throttle setting.

Think of it as this. Every time you get behind the wheel there is a computer dyno tuning your car. Everytime you touch the gas it's tuning. And the best part is it will be more accurate than a dyno. You get the fuel map set up based on the actual amount and tempature of air your car is breathing outside on the street versus what it gets in the shop on the dyno with fans set up to "emulate" the air forced across the IC and the air accessable by the intake filter.

I'm getting all warm and fuzzy just thinking about it....

Eric

[03CivicSi]

Thanks for the write up.. I just have a couple more.
if some of this isn't really something to worry about just say so.. thanks I just wanna learn as much as I can about most/all of this

If the ELF is a temporary ECU, what would we use as our main one if we were to go to a permanent one?

and you said "On the dyno, the car is driven under normal load. With the guardian you literally drive it.
With the dyno and the guardian, you start with overly rich settings to be safe, and back out excess fuel as you tune to perfection.
You continue to back out more fuel till you reach an optimum A/F ratio which is determined by a tailpipe sniffer on the dyno that is a wideband O2 sensor.

What do you mean by all that adjusting fuel injection part stuff?

and when you were talking about the Dyno, does that mean it is necessary to tune on the dyno so the ELF Guardian better knows when to adjust the fuel at the correct RPM/throttle range? or will it "learn" right from when you take it out right away on the highway or whatever?

ONE more, sorry lol but.. if you were to have this turbo and the Guardian learned when to adjust fuel/air, then you were to modify the car EVEN MORE... would it change itself or go back to current settings? like if the RPM's or speed went up due to modifying/making the car faster...


Thanks:)

[esmith13]

OK, I'm going to assume by your questions your VERY new to this...

1. If the ELF is a temporary ECU, what would we use as our main one if we were to go to a permanent one?

Um, your confused. Your car runs off of the computer Honda put in it. The ELF simply "overrides" some settings to ignore the turbo so you car dosen't have a cow. If the elf i not in the new kit seperately, that means it's PART of the guardian now - meaning just in the same box instead of having two things to wire up.

2. What do you mean by all that adjusting fuel injection part stuff?

Well, how to put it... The ECU honda put in our cars knows how much fuel to inject into the cylindars to mix/combust with the amoput of air the stock airbox brings into the engine. The guardian AND the Apexi "intercept" that magic number and adjust it as needed for the reality that the turbo is forcing a hell-of-a-lot more air into the engine than the computer thinks/expects. Too much air and not enough fuel to go with it make car go BOOM!!

3. and when you were talking about the Dyno, does that mean it is necessary to tune on the dyno so the ELF Guardian better knows when to adjust the fuel at the correct RPM/throttle range? or will it "learn" right from when you take it out right away on the highway or whatever?

No, you will NEVER have to dyno with the Guardian - EVER. You will, however, have to set it initially using a Computer/Laptop for the amount of boost you are running so it knows what "generic" fuel map to start with so your car dosen't blow up when you first turn the key and give it gas. Technically the Guardian would have to work on an "after the fact" basis. It see's room for improvement on a setting it just used and changes it on the map for the next tim eit's needed.

4. ONE more, sorry lol but.. if you were to have this turbo and the Guardian learned when to adjust fuel/air, then you were to modify the car EVEN MORE... would it change itself or go back to current settings? like if the RPM's or speed went up due to modifying/making the car faster...

Yes it would change itself. However, you reasoning about speed going up due to mods is not relevant to the fuel map, but any mods you did that WOULD matter would be adjusted on the fly... It would literally ALWAYS be looking for a better setting even if it currently was at the best setting. The tuning chip would never rest. even at idle it would vary fuel on the fly so if it magically dropped 50 degrees outside in a split second your car wouldn't lean out all of a sudden like a turbo'd car would now...

Hope this helps ya.

Eric

[03CivicSi]

(the speed to fuel thing was a little screwy,lol)

But thanks so much!:D I understand a lot better now.
sounds freaking awesome.


oh and p.s. I'm sorry if I cut into anyone elses posting time or "invaded a thread":o

[Rueda del Queso]

Hmm, $500 for an automatically tuning, redline-increasing stand alone air-fuel computer? Screw hondata!

[esmith13]

Very good point... And this is VERY Turbo friendly, unlike hondata which works against the principals of boost.

Hondata makes it's power by leaning out the mix and stabilizing the power curve. Turbo's need more fuel and do NOT have linear power bands.

This would be like a "Universial Hondata". or "Automatic S-AFC".

They could make a mint just selling this item alone to people with all kinds of setups. But i have a feeling it may be programmed to talk to a k-series only due to how it works - not that they couldn't program some for other engines/ECU's but you get the idea...


Eric

[EPHatchgirl]

Very very interesting....:mad: :D :mad: :D

[danoonez]

Originally posted by esmith13
The only thing the ELF chip does is suppress CEL codes that should not be seen (like the presence of boost)and also acts as an O2 Simulator and MAF Simulator.

So in a CN setup (currently) you have:

Stock ECU - acts normally and swears the engine is completely stock.

ELF Chip - O2 Sim., MAF Sim and supress the Stock ECU's complaining about boost presence, rich fuel conditions, etc. ELF chip is a TEMPORARY flash module. When you first start the car it "flashes" the stock ECU to do it's bidding and then does absolutely nothing untill the car is turned off and then on again at which time it flashes the ECU again since it's flash isn't permenant. You could literally disconnect the ELF once your car is started and function normally.

S-AFC II - intercepts the stock ECU's fuel settings and modifies them on the fly to what is needed for the turbo/larger injectors to be happy and run at a good A/F ratio.


In the NEW setup they are working on you will have:

Stock ECU

Guardian EI

ELF Chip if not embeded in the Guardian Box


I can imagine EXACTLY how the Guardian works... If you've ever been involved in Dyno tuning your own car it very simple.

On the dyno, the car is driven under normal load. With the guardian you literally drive it.
With the dyno and the guardian, you start with overly rich settings to be safe, and back out excess fuel as you tune to perfection.
You continue to back out more fuel till you reach an optimum A/F ratio which is determined by a tailpipe sniffer on the dyno that is a wideband O2 sensor. This is the only part I haven't exactly figured out about the Guardian. Only thing I can think of is that the now defunct secondary O2 sensor on our car is good enough to determine the A/F ratio fairly accurately and the guardian uses that to tune with instead of how you use a wideband O2 sensor on a dyno. Maybe CN has a wideband sensor included with the new computer to swap out with the secondary O2 we have now???

It could work. Alls that means as while your driving with whatever it determines to be your current fuel map, it's always checking current performance at a specific RPM/Throttle position so it can update the fuel setting for the next time you hit that exact RPM/Throttle setting.

Think of it as this. Every time you get behind the wheel there is a computer dyno tuning your car. Everytime you touch the gas it's tuning. And the best part is it will be more accurate than a dyno. You get the fuel map set up based on the actual amount and tempature of air your car is breathing outside on the street versus what it gets in the shop on the dyno with fans set up to "emulate" the air forced across the IC and the air accessable by the intake filter.

I'm getting all warm and fuzzy just thinking about it....

Eric

If all that is correct, then this ELF is the most amazing thing I have ever heard of.

[esmith13]

The ELF chip that we have now??? or do you mean the Guardian thingy - the item that's not released yet??

Eric

[ATRIOT]

Doesnt the ECU use the o2 sensor as a knock sensor already? So mabey the guardian momentarily leans the mix until the knock sensor registers then richens the mix to compensate. Yes? Mabey? Totally Off?

[esmith13]

Nope. there is an actual dedicated Knock sensor bolted to the underside of the intake manifold.

On a completely stock car, the secondary O2 sensor's job is simply to make sure the Cat did it's job right and let the ECU know it.

Eric

[ATRIOT]

K, i'll just shut up now :blushm:

[danoonez]

Originally posted by esmith13
The ELF chip that we have now??? or do you mean the Guardian thingy - the item that's not released yet??

Eric


Oops... I meant the Guardian.

[Rueda del Queso]

From Cybernation:
">So will the Guardian be available as a stand-alone unit?
>Will it also be able to adjust redline based on user input?
>If so, sounds a hell of a lot better than Hondata and I
>would be very interested in getting this for my basically
>stock car, EP3 not RSX.

Yes, stand-alone unit is apart of the future as well as a user based GUI."

GUI, sounds a lot like the upcoming programmable hondata. Holy crap this is going to be cool!

[esmith13]

nice find! where did you get that info from? club rsx?

Eric

[Rueda del Queso]

http://www.cybernationmotorsports.com/dcforum/DCForumID8/1.html

[03CivicSi]

yes, and the not upgrading your fuel system is going to better for us, right?

[esmith13]

Better in terms of cheaper kit, faster/cheaper to install kit. And one think I don't like about my install you won't have... The faint smell of fuel from the MSD inline fuel pump added to the engine bay. Which also means no priming the fuel system before starting the car either now...

Hmmm... if i get a guardian... maybe I'll remove my inline pump...

Eric

[Boost Junkie]

Originally posted by 03CivicSi
yes, and the not upgrading your fuel system is going to better for us, right?

That is correct. You will be able to have a stage I with out adding an inline pump, the extra fuel lines and in tank modifications. The only mod in the fuel system required is the larger injectors. This will help make the kit less expensive and easier to install.

[esmith13]

Are you by chance a Cybernation employee?? :D

Eric

[03CivicSi]

Why yes, yes I am.

[esmith13]

Bite me Jersey boy... ;)

Eric

[03CivicSi]

Lol, POST WHORE! jk haha

[Boost Junkie]

Originally posted by esmith13
Are you by chance a Cybernation employee?? :D

Eric

yes. I work with lee on all the R&D we do.

[esmith13]

:D

My new best friend... :D :D :D


So how do i get on that "list of hopefuls" for the guardian testing?? The AFC is nice and all, but I want the bonus of self adjusting on the fly... And I'm not afraid to tinker with my car.

... And I'm curious if it can squeeze out more than the 267WHP I'm makin now... ;)

Eric

[03CivicSi]

we also want to know if I can get a friendly discount on a new Stage I package with Guardian EI?;) ;)

[Boost Junkie]

Originally posted by esmith13
:D

My new best friend... :D :D :D


So how do i get on that "list of hopefuls" for the guardian testing?? The AFC is nice and all, but I want the bonus of self adjusting on the fly... And I'm not afraid to tinker with my car.

... And I'm curious if it can squeeze out more than the 267WHP I'm makin now... ;)

Eric

I have started a new thread for those who are interested.Guardian Test Pilots Wanted (http://www.ephatch.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=31093)

[Boost Junkie]

Originally posted by 03CivicSi
we also want to know if I can get a friendly discount on a new Stage I package with Guardian EI?;) ;)

:D I'll give you an A for effort.

[trk]

So if I understood all this right, I could buy the Guardian EI (when its released) and it should be able to auto tune my N/A Hondata ECU.

Think of it this way, whats the difference if my flashed ECU tells it something different than stock... Isn't that exactly what a turbo would be telling your ECU (non stock values)... it should correct it either way, right? Am I way off base here?

Whether its N/A, JRSC, Hondata Flash, Turbo, Whatever... the Guardian should still do its thing.

If this is true/possible, I already have my redline higher and I can buy the cheaper Guardian when it ships and be "ready" to get FI without ever needing to sell my hondata ecu and go through the immobilizer hassle.

[Boost Junkie]

Originally posted by trk
So if I understood all this right, I could buy the Guardian EI (when its released) and it should be able to auto tune my N/A Hondata ECU.

Think of it this way, whats the difference if my flashed ECU tells it something different than stock... Isn't that exactly what a turbo would be telling your ECU (non stock values)... it should correct it either way, right? Am I way off base here?

Whether its N/A, JRSC, Hondata Flash, Turbo, Whatever... the Guardian should still do its thing.

We have not tested it with hondata as of yet. I am sure that it will work to a degree but there could be some unseen issues.


Originally posted by trk
If this is true/possible, I already have my redline higher and I can buy the cheaper Guardian when it ships and be "ready" to get FI without ever needing to sell my hondata ecu and go through the immobilizer hassle. [/B]

You can re-flash the ECU back to stock. That would save you the trouble of selling it and reprogramming the immobilizer code. We are also working on increasing the rev limiter and a bunch of other cool things.

[trk]

Originally posted by Boost Junkie
We have not tested it with hondata as of yet. I am sure that it will work to a degree but there could be some unseen issues.



You can re-flash the ECU back to stock. That would save you the trouble of selling it and reprogramming the immobilizer code. We are also working on increasing the rev limiter and a bunch of other cool things.

Interesting. Are you planning on testing it w/ Hondata? Want to beta test it on my car? Ill even pay for it and only want my money back if it doesn't work.... :angel:

AS for flashing back to normal... I would have to pay to do that from Hondata.... or just throw the $500 in the trash by having a honda dealer unknowingly update/flash it back to normal. I would rather sell it and then pay for immobilizer transfer and just buy the guardian that increases redline.

So when "do you think" its going to be available?

[fsugatorbait]

Im also very interested in how this will work with hondata. Ive been following this thread closely and this sounds like an amazing device that has the potential to drastically change tuning if whats said is true. Please keep us updated as things progress. :)

[Boost Junkie]

Originally posted by trk
Interesting. Are you planning on testing it w/ Hondata? Want to beta test it on my car? Ill even pay for it and only want my money back if it doesn't work.... :angel:

AS for flashing back to normal... I would have to pay to do that from Hondata.... or just throw the $500 in the trash by having a honda dealer unknowingly update/flash it back to normal. I would rather sell it and then pay for immobilizer transfer and just buy the guardian that increases redline.

So when "do you think" its going to be available?


The dealer can flash it back to stock for you with out a problem. We have had people do it in the past.

[trk]

Originally posted by Boost Junkie
The dealer can flash it back to stock for you with out a problem. We have had people do it in the past.

yes, I know that... as stated in the post above it would be like throwing 500$ away...

So, again, I will ask the question... Are you planning on testing it with Hondata?

Seriously, if you send me one, Ill give you my CC #, and if it doesn't work I'll send it back. If it does, you can charge my card for the full retail price. We both win that way.

[esmith13]

Well, you'd be throwing the $500 away anyways...

If CN's box raises revs - your done. Hondata just leans out fuel to gain HP. You are taking over control of fuel with guardian. and if it raises revs - that's done too. So how would running one on top of the other make you feel better???

Eric

[trk]

Originally posted by esmith13
Well, you'd be throwing the $500 away anyways...

If CN's box raises revs - your done. Hondata just leans out fuel to gain HP. You are taking over control of fuel with guardian. and if it raises revs - that's done too. So how would running one on top of the other make you feel better???

Eric

No, actually, I wouldn't be. I could buy the "cheaper" guardian without the recline increaser... and still have a higher redline. Or I could sell it first. So NO, I wouldn't be "throwing the $500 away anyway" as you infer. Im just trying to weigh my options.

I still want to know (and is all I wanted to know) if they are *planning* on testing it with hondata... a simple yes, no or probably not would suffice.

[esmith13]

According to the thread about the guardian on ClubRSX, they don't currently plan on it - at least not until they get guardian out on the street in the first place.

You don't HAVE to be so snippy, ya'know... ;)

Eric

[Boost Junkie]

Originally posted by trk

I still want to know (and is all I wanted to know) if they are *planning* on testing it with hondata... a simple yes, no or probably not would suffice.

Ouch!

Yes, we are planning to do some testing for compatibility but have not done so as of yet. Our first priority is to get it out and working by itself. We will then start to work on the compatibility issue with Hondata if one exists.

[trk]

Right on.

Thanks for the answers.

Snippyness seems to be the only way to get past the general "your a tard for asking anything out of the ordinary" type attitude on this site.

BTW, you have some snippyness to you too:

So how would running one on top of the other make you feel better???



Peace,

Tai

:D

[Soon2beEP3]

Sweet, it has begun. 300whp in an EP, I wouldn't have dreamt it. I'm just gonna give you guys a few months to see if you kill any engines or trannies.

[trk]

Originally posted by Soon2beEP3
Sweet, it has begun. 300whp in an EP, I wouldn't have dreamt it. I'm just gonna give you guys a few months to see if you kill any engines or trannies.

Totally.

This looks like a better choice than the JRSC more and more each day. You guys are doing great work.

[esmith13]

Originally posted by Soon2beEP3
Sweet, it has begun. 300whp in an EP, I wouldn't have dreamt it. I'm just gonna give you guys a few months to see if you kill any engines or trannies.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. ;)

Us daily drivers will of course, keep you posted. :)



trk,

I apologize for snipping at you. :) And you ARE right - sometimes it takes snippiness to get anything accomplished around here.


Eric

[trk]

Originally posted by esmith13

trk,

I apologize for snipping at you. :) And you ARE right - sometimes it takes snippiness to get anything accomplished around here.


Eric

Hey no prob. This place gets touchy... lol.

Your car is gorgeous, I have pics on my desktop of your ride now and then... (on rotate).... anyway, I think the CN Guardian and a Turbo is now in the future for me.

[esmith13]

I don't know what to say... I'm honored :)

Eric

[EPHatchgirl]

Originally posted by esmith13
I don't know what to say... I'm honored :)

Eric


AWWW!!!:) GROUP HUG!! GROUP HUG!!:D

[tcostello3]

Group WHAT:D

Well I just talked to CN & I'm hatin' it. They'll do wahtever to my wifes ep but won't touch my Ex unless I go ahead and do a swap (I've been considering a JDM K engine not sure which version yet and might consider a USDM a3) So now I have to buy her boost for x-mas and put mine off until summer. oh'well maybe I'll make the cut to be a beta tester;)

[Boost Junkie]

Originally posted by tcostello3
Group WHAT:D

Well I just talked to CN & I'm hatin' it. They'll do wahtever to my wifes ep but won't touch my Ex unless I go ahead and do a swap (I've been considering a JDM K engine not sure which version yet and might consider a USDM a3) So now I have to buy her boost for x-mas and put mine off until summer. oh'well maybe I'll make the cut to be a beta tester;)

Sorry bout that man. But at least you can borrow your wifes car until then. If she will let you I mean.

[dofu]

self tuning always sounds cool, but it is a piggyback system too, so im wondering what the difference is between the guardian EI and the EFI PMS unit besides not having custom settings???

[Soon2beEP3]

Originally posted by esmith13
Thanks for the vote of confidence. ;)

Us daily drivers will of course, keep you posted. :)



trk,

I apologize for snipping at you. :) And you ARE right - sometimes it takes snippiness to get anything accomplished around here.


Eric

Not that I don't confide, I just can't afford to go through engines. I wanted an engine swap in a year or two, but now leaning towards turbo. 300whp mmmmmmmmm mmmmmmm bitches.

[66elwood99]

Eric,

Did you upgrade clutch and tranny? If not.....how is your clutch holding up?

[esmith13]

neither are upgraded yet...

Tranny has ZERO issues (RSX 5spd has better gearing for turbo tho, may find one)

Clutch holds great unless you attempt to dump or feather it above 2,000rpm... Then it melts ;) so ET's suffer at the track but street use is perfectly fine.

Eric

[K-Series]

I upgraded my clutch and flywheel and I'm actively searching for a base RSX trans. Then I'll need an LSD and I should be ready for 400+hp. :)


Steve

[fsugatorbait]

Im assuming that the base RSX tranny is geared longer, but what improvements do you think can be seen by swapping it over the si?

[K-Series]

That's it...longer gears. As a smart person once said, why swap out the gears when I can get a whole trans for back up. :)


Steve

[rook]

Would this be compatable with the base JRSC and 440cc injectors? Basically upgrading the base kit to a race kit? Just wanted to know about SC compatability and autotuning using higher psi pulley's.

rook

[fsugatorbait]

Originally posted by fsugatorbait
...what improvements do you think can be seen by swapping it over the si?

[esmith13]

boost is non linear. Longer/taller gears allow you to stay at peak psi longer.

higher the active psi at any moment... the more horsies you make.

Changing the tranny alone can effect you dyno curve alot.

Eric

[Boost Junkie]

Originally posted by esmith13
boost is non linear. Longer/taller gears allow you to stay at peak psi longer.

higher the active psi at any moment... the more horsies you make.

Changing the tranny alone can effect you dyno curve alot.

Eric

I like horsies:D The more the better.

[2k2SiAutoXer]

WOW looks like I missed a lot! If I read correctly then I would be able to use this with my GReddy Kit, right? Would I just plug it in place of the emanage unit then??

--Tom

[HokieSi]

The only thing I hope that the CN Nerds accounted for in building this Guardian box is, "What if any critical input sensors go out?"

I understand the AI concept and its great that they are incorporating this into the tuning world, I'm just making sure they did their homework. It would stand to reason that if any sensors went out the piggy back ecu would just retain the current settings and you should get a replacement sensor asap.

Also, does anyone know how to make this kit pass emissions in Northern VA/DC?

[esmith13]

OK, #1 - It does retain settings on the fly so you point of concern is well taken. Apparently it's exactly like a S-AFC that just happens to be able to retune itself on the fly.

#2 - No problem with guardian. That's why they tested guardian on a stock car with the larger injectors! ;)

Picture this. You run the turbo kit either with the cat left on or get the test pipe flanged so you can swap out pipe and cat on a whim. You drive the balls outta your car - then inspection time comes. You simply make sure cat is installed (if you don't keep it permenantly) and you unbolt you BOV so no psi can build up at all. Take the car out for a 5 min drive and guardian will rewrite your fuel map for you new N/A status!! Go pass emissions and rebolt the BOV back on and remove cat (if your not keeping it permenantly). That's it!!!

This is one of the many OTHER benifits to having guardian over any other fuel management setup! ;)

Eric

[Boost Junkie]

Originally posted by HokieSi
The only thing I hope that the CN Nerds accounted for in building this Guardian box is, "What if any critical input sensors go out?"


Of course we have.



Originally posted by HokieSi

I understand the AI concept and its great that they are incorporating this into the tuning world, I'm just making sure they did their homework. It would stand to reason that if any sensors went out the piggy back ecu would just retain the current settings and you should get a replacement sensor asap.


Correct.

Also, does anyone know how to make this kit pass emissions in Northern VA/DC? [/B][/QUOTE]

[Boost Junkie]

Originally posted by esmith13
OK, #1 - It does retain settings on the fly so you point of concern is well taken. Apparently it's exactly like a S-AFC that just happens to be able to retune itself on the fly.


Just wanted to clear up one thing. Guardian is nothing like the S-AFC. The S-AFC is a static device and requires user input to make any changes. Guardian on the other hand runs on the fly and makes changes based on information it acquires from the car. Embedded intelligence.

[66elwood99]

Originally posted by Boost Junkie
Just wanted to clear up one thing. Guardian is nothing like the S-AFC. The S-AFC is a static device and requires user input to make any changes. Guardian on the other hand runs on the fly and makes changes based on information it acquires from the car. Embedded intelligence.


I got "Goosebumps" Embedded intelligence :D

[esmith13]

Originally posted by Boost Junkie
Just wanted to clear up one thing. Guardian is nothing like the S-AFC. The S-AFC is a static device and requires user input to make any changes. Guardian on the other hand runs on the fly and makes changes based on information it acquires from the car. Embedded intelligence.

Sorry to missinterpret. I honestly was given the impression that it does the same job as an AFC - in the terms that it was a piggyback adjustment to the ECU's fuel map by adding and removing a percentage of the stock map's fuel flow for given rpm range and at one of two throttle levels (Hi/Lo). Please explain for my curiousity how else it differs? I know the self tunning part, but I mean does it add a third dimention to the map like current boost level, or does it have a more analog approach to throttle position than the AFC's crude Hi/Lo map shift? I am VERY curious :D

Eric

[EPHatchgirl]

Eric,
From what I understand- Boost Junkie, correct me if I am wrong...-

The boost is monitored to determine the proper air/fuel ratio, so instead of the ECU being told:
"I am at 3000 rpm, so I have to dump 10% extra fuel"

like it would for an SAFCII, with the Guardian it would be told:

"I am at 2.5 PSI at 3000 rpm, so I have to dump X fuel to retain X A/F ratio...."


...and as the turbo spools up, adjustments are made to keep you in that "X" A/F ratio....

...
...
...

I guess...

:p :D


Had to take a stab at it though... now, someone correct me.

[Boost Junkie]

Originally posted by EPHatchgirl
Eric,
From what I understand- Boost Junkie, correct me if I am wrong...-

The boost is monitored to determine the proper air/fuel ratio, so instead of the ECU being told:
"I am at 3000 rpm, so I have to dump 10% extra fuel"

like it would for an SAFCII, with the Guardian it would be told:

"I am at 2.5 PSI at 3000 rpm, so I have to dump X fuel to retain X A/F ratio...."


...and as the turbo spools up, adjustments are made to keep you in that "X" A/F ratio....

...
...
...

I guess...

:p :D


Had to take a stab at it though... now, someone correct me.

I'll give you an A for effort.

Ok here is what is going on basically. Guardian takes readings from many sensors not just one. Guardian will then take into account all the information and make a decision based on that information. Throttle position and boost are just some of which the system monitors.

esmith- The S-AFC is basically a dumb device. I do not mean it as it sucks I just mean that it can only do what the user input says to do. For instance, if you set the a/f to lean it will do it and you will probably blow the motor. It cannot think for itself and say, "Hey that is way to lean so lets add fuel". Guardian will do just that.

The system does so many different things that it is very hard to explain with out writing a book. But if anyone has anymore questions on it let me know and I will answer the best I can.

[EPHatchgirl]

Originally posted by Boost Junkie
I'll give you an A for effort.



LOL, I'ma go put it on my fridge to show off.;) :D

[esmith13]

Thanks for the explanation Chris!! (and you too Jules for the effort! ;))

That is just mind numbing... I all most find it impossible to believe that the stock sensors and a piggyback can compute all that info and not be "after the fact" in it's manner of completing it's task...

Then again - is that how it works???

In other words - does it have a given saved map - use that fuel value - THEN read the sensors and make an adjustment and SAVE it in the map for th next time that instance is experienced?? Or does it litterly read an instance in THAT VERY INSTANT and supply the correct amount of fuel? I ind it hard to believe it does it instantaneously, since it is a piggyback and dosen't get the stock fuel map untill it NEEDS to be transmitted to the injectors... Unless guardian is somehow wired in "earlier" in the loop??

I may be reading into this WAY too far -- but you said we could ask. :D

Eric

[HokieSi]

Originally posted by esmith13

Picture this. You run the turbo kit either with the cat left on or get the test pipe flanged so you can swap out pipe and cat on a whim. You drive the balls outta your car - then inspection time comes. You simply make sure cat is installed (if you don't keep it permenantly) and you unbolt you BOV so no psi can build up at all. Take the car out for a 5 min drive and guardian will rewrite your fuel map for you new N/A status!! Go pass emissions and rebolt the BOV back on and remove cat (if your not keeping it permenantly). That's it!!!

This is one of the many OTHER benifits to having guardian over any other fuel management setup! ;)
Eric

More or less what I was asking was if the kit will pass emissions testing "AS-IS" without using any tricks to get around the law. I know the kit isn't "CARB" legal but that doesn't mean it won't pass emissions.

[esmith13]

Best I can tell you is if it's dyno tuned WELL it would pass PA emissions EXCEPT I have no cat so I fail before they even put the car on the machine... I thought ALL states that had emissions testing had an instant fail if you don't have a cat??

Eric

[Boost Junkie]

Originally posted by esmith13
Thanks for the explanation Chris!! (and you too Jules for the effort! ;))

That is just mind numbing... I all most find it impossible to believe that the stock sensors and a piggyback can compute all that info and not be "after the fact" in it's manner of completing it's task...

Then again - is that how it works???

In other words - does it have a given saved map - use that fuel value - THEN read the sensors and make an adjustment and SAVE it in the map for th next time that instance is experienced?? Or does it litterly read an instance in THAT VERY INSTANT and supply the correct amount of fuel? I ind it hard to believe it does it instantaneously, since it is a piggyback and dosen't get the stock fuel map untill it NEEDS to be transmitted to the injectors... Unless guardian is somehow wired in "earlier" in the loop??

I may be reading into this WAY too far -- but you said we could ask. :D

Eric

I would love to be able to be specific any time I can but some of these questions I cannot answer until the product is released for the general public. I do not want to give any information that may tip off our competition. But I can say "Do not underestimate the dark side of th......" oh wait, wrong line, I meant do not underestimate the speed at which the stock ECU and sensors can process information. You would be amazed at how fast the ECU can function.

[esmith13]

Originally posted by Boost Junkie
I would love to be able to be specific any time I can but some of these questions I cannot answer until the product is released for the general public. I do not want to give any information that may tip off our competition. But I can say "Do not underestimate the dark side of th......" oh wait, wrong line, I meant do not underestimate the speed at which the stock ECU and sensors can process information. You would be amazed at how fast the ECU can function.

:D :D :D

I have goose bumps!!!

I hope my piss poor ass get's picked to beta test... I don't think I could stand waiting a few months for it's release or to scrape up the $$ to buy...

Eric

[Centexsi]

It seems very bad ass, especially if the ecu/guardian can process fast enough to keep adjusting for air/fuel sort of how our I-vtec works to adjust changeover point. Would like to see how much better it works then the rev hard fc piggyback.

[2k2SiAutoXer]

Boost-

I have been folowing this thread for a bit and it all looks very good. I will be installing my Greddy turbo within the next 2 weeks (I already have the trubo kit) I live in colorado springs (elev. approx 6800 feet). I would be very interested in trying this kit out and if it works well, would have no problem putting a sticker representing the company on my car. Thanks!

--Tom

PS PM me if you want more info about my car and my future plans with it.

[matt02222222]

I was on vacation 2 weeks ago and i stopped in and talked to the guys at Cybernation (all very nice!!!) They took me for a ride in their si with the Gaurdian system, all I can say is just stop asking questions and just buy it when it comes out. The ride was incredible.
You seriously can not blow your car up with this, no matter how stupid you are. GREAT WORK GUYS

[Boost Junkie]

Originally posted by matt02222222
I was on vacation 2 weeks ago and i stopped in and talked to the guys at Cybernation (all very nice!!!) They took me for a ride in their si with the Gaurdian system, all I can say is just stop asking questions and just buy it when it comes out. The ride was incredible.
You seriously can not blow your car up with this, no matter how stupid you are. GREAT WORK GUYS


I'm glad you enjoyed the ride.;)