botum k20a3 with a2 head + hondata

[tgrasshopper]

botum k20a3 with a2 head + hondata
How can I know if the botum of the k20a3 will be ok with a k20a2 head at 8900rpm with hondata?

Hanswer of hodata:> Your Ecu can be reflashed with the Type-S program, but I'm not sure how
your
> rods will hold up at higher RPM.

Did somme body alredy see a setup like that?
I like to do this setup but I won't a make sure about the botum of the k20a3

Thanks

[ADAMnQuickCIVIC]

you can ask for the stock rev-limit option.

[tgrasshopper]

Originally posted by ADAMnQuickCIVIC
you can ask for the stock rev-limit option.

I know but I like to take this rev limit if it posible,if not I will fluch hondata and stay with the honda rsx ECU.

[anjapower]

I highly doubt that the bottom end of the A3 will hold up to 8900RPM.

Although you can probably get away with going there for short stints...*whistles innocently*

[03silverEP]

they said, they will sell you an a2 flash, (if you have a A2 head on your A3 block, but they haven't tested 8600rpm on an A3 and don't endorse it) basically w/a head swap if you want hondata you need the K-Pro ecu so you can manually set the redline at 7700,

[Siman]

lord guys!

I have been asking the same question for like a year!

no one has an answer....

You cant just set a rev limit, you must tune your car to perform in the event of a 8500+ RPM limit...

yeah, get the type-s head and Hondata reflash to 8900 rpm, and high compression gasket.....

when i build my motor, its going to have aftermarket rods, type-r pistons, type-s head with cams, and hondatata reflash...so I know it wont break on me LOL

play it safe, just get a stock type-s ecu, and put type-r cams in the head, high compression head gasket...and you will be set to go....oh, and get the type-r hondata reflash to 8500 rpm to take advantage of the higher duration cams!;)

[tgrasshopper]

So I guest the best setup for the price will be
k20a2 head rebuilt and shave(not sure how mutch mm)
reflash my OEM ECU with hondata rsx s but drop the rev limiter arond 8300 Rpm juste to make sure for the a3 bloc.
keep
my OEM intake
and my cd header
OEM head gasket(spoon are to expensive for the price anyway I will shave the head)
I guest I will have to change my intake gasket and my header gasquet.

Did I miss something important?

I don't want a open my a3 block because may be I will change it for and k24 with the time.

How mutch money should I expec to spend on this setup?

[myeverlovinsir]

:D

[DavidT]

The best setup for the price is a K20A or K20A2 swap period. If you do all that with your A3, you're still stuck with a 5-spd tranny that I'm sure you'll eventually want to upgrade sooner or later (cough myeverlovinsir cough :D )

You can get a good K20A2 for $5k. Sell your A3 for $3k and only spend $2k. Well worth it. An a2 head and ECU is already around 1k and then the 6-spd tranny, another 1k and you'll still have to pay for labor of all those items.

Plus the A2 block has all forged internals vs the A3s which is not, and the higher compression of the A2 as well. Just do the swap ;)

[myeverlovinsir]

Strange how everyone who has not done any engine swapping has a clean opionion about which is better and want's to dole out cost as a rationalle. I paid less than half including labour than an A2 swap and am further ahead power wise. Everyone has their own means to an end and if you want to compare the type-S to an A3 stock than that's a different story. Some people will never get how you can have the best of the K-series components work to an advantage without doing a complete swap and paying out the ass to get there.;)

[DavidT]

Myeverlovinsir if you're directing your first sentence to me, I have plenty of swapping experiences under my belt (Frankenstiens and straight swaps) and plenty of turboing experience (With the B-series) and from my experience I will tell you straight up (And I'm sure you'll agree with me) for the average joe a straight swap will be much less of a headache and turn out much more reliable and if you play your cards right it will be much cheaper.

You got a deal on your a2 head for only $300. That was a total steal and even I was inline for the head. If the a2 heads were easy to come by and were only $300 maybe it'd be worth it, but for now it's not.

That and the fact the A3 bottom end isn't the greatest, which I'm sure you already know. And the stock 9.8:1 A3 compression ratio is pretty poor for a n/a setup. I know you have plans to be boosted in the future, but you'll eventually have to have your bottom end reinforced (Which again I'm sure you're aware of) because an A3 bottom end with boost to 8k is not really smart. With around 5-7 psi the supercharged A2 guys aren't having any troubles yet, none reported. The turbo guys are a different story though :p

Again for the people who are considering head swaps, it's most likely cheaper or the same price to buy an a2 and sell your a3 to get some money back.

[myeverlovinsir]

The nice thing is that the K-series is not as labour intensive as the B-series and you don't need to be some esoterical guru to know how to swap parts. Almost anyone could swap a k-series engine component. Reliability is not an issue with components vs. a complete swap. If you put an A2 head on an A3 block or swap out the tranny for JDM you should not have a concern for reliablilty, provided the parts are in good shape. Btw: I paid $350 for my head and if it was as cost effective as that, then everyone would do it. Yes I do have some exclusivity and would not trade it for an A2 swap!

[DavidT]

You're forgetting human errors. Not every mechanic is as good as the guy next to him, not everyone is as knowledgable and even so they still make mistakes. What if the mechanic mis torques a headbolt? What if the mechanic put something together wrong after pulling it apart or miss times a cam by a tooth or so? At least in a swap mistakes will be made in mounting errors and not mechanical errors. I'd take a complete A2 over a hybrid A3 anyday. Though I do value your opinion and know where you're coming from because you have that setup.

[myeverlovinsir]

Part of the sleeper style is that you have the stock looks, given, but have something else to show in power. I own your sleepy ass! Lol:D

[DavidT]

In terms of power, I'm an all motor guy....I maybe making more WHP than you but I won't say anything until I get my dyno done. Until then you can have the bragging rights cause you've dyno'd yours :)

[myeverlovinsir]

Ha, what little I have shared has since improved with the k-pro. I'll let you Knaw on that one, then think about the LSD. If you look under my hood it's as it looked stock, save the CAI that is noticable. I don't dress it up, just use what works.

[tgrasshopper]

What are the dyno and time slep of and
a3+a2 head with oem rsx ecu?

[JDM_EpTypeR]

well i hope this helps u, i had type-r pistons type-r cams with the type-s head and the type-r ecu, my redline was 8665 and i had no problem with mine and i raced my car, my friend in the other case has a type-s head with the compleat toda kit (cams, springs, ecu)plus nitrous and his redline is 9100 he has had no problems with it and he races also. but i can tell u one thing, if you want real power, you need compression 9.8:1 is not going to cut it. i was able to beat my friend because of this 11.5:1, when he was not sprayin. so good luck!!!!

[TrippZ]

drool drool drool 9100 drooooollllll

[sleepin02si]

Originally posted by JDM_EpTypeR
well i hope this helps u, i had type-r pistons type-r cams with the type-s head and the type-r ecu, my redline was 8665 and i had no problem with mine and i raced my car, my friend in the other case has a type-s head with the compleat toda kit (cams, springs, ecu)plus nitrous and his redline is 9100 he has had no problems with it and he races also. but i can tell u one thing, if you want real power, you need compression 9.8:1 is not going to cut it. i was able to beat my friend because of this 11.5:1, when he was not sprayin. so good luck!!!!
What is your setup? Your post was a little confusing. What compression do you have with your type-r goodies? Also, do you mean CTR or ITR?

[JDM_EpTypeR]

Well sleepin02si its very simple but very long equation so I will just list all my parts for you,
1. Stock si motor (K20A3)
2. Type-s head
3. Type-R cams
4. Type-R ECU
5. Type-R Pistons
6. Ignion solutions upgraded coil packs
7. 310 injectors
8. AEM Fuel rail
9. Apexi VAFC2
10. Fadanza flywheel
11. Spec2 stage 2 cluch
12. Comptech Type-S headers, exhaust depot straight pipe, caspers o2 sim, Greddy Evo cat back
13. Topped of with a red type-r valve cover

[JDM_EpTypeR]

I'm Sorry........... I used ITR pistons (11.5:1 compression) and cams from Japan because the CTR from Europe just has the US RSX Type-S drive train(11:1 compession), I wanted the most for my car

[myeverlovinsir]

Originally posted by JDM_EpTypeR
Well sleepin02si its very simple but very long equation so I will just list all my parts for you,
1. Stock si motor (K20A3)
2. Type-s head
3. Type-R cams
4. Type-R ECU
5. Type-R Pistons
6. Ignion solutions upgraded coil packs
7. 310 injectors
8. AEM Fuel rail
9. Apexi VAFC2
10. Fadanza flywheel
11. Spec2 stage 2 cluch
12. Comptech Type-S headers, exhaust depot straight pipe, caspers o2 sim, Greddy Evo cat back
13. Topped of with a red type-r valve cover

Nice list, ever thought about a DC5R tranny? That may be the one thing I think your lacking, or an LSD fix.

[JDM_EpTypeR]

Thanks for the compliment on the list I'm just trying to get where u are........but the motor blew up already, spark plugs were to hot, compression was to high and the engine leaned out....... detonation is a bitch, so I'm plannin on a k24 bottom and A3 top (A3 160hp, K24 166 ft-lb, hopefully combined I will have a hybrid that has 160hp & 166 ft-lbs as a base platform, then boost it when I get the cash, the Hasport supercharged K24 w/ A2 has I think 297hp at 7lbs of boost. Everyone knows that's hondas' problem ton of hp but no tourq. And everyone also knows that without tourq your car aint shit.......why u think the SRT-4 burns so much rubber if the driver lunches wrong other then the turbo? Look at the hp, tourq ratio 230hp 250ft-lbs) now if I can find a DC5R tranny at a good price then fine I'll do that but don't know where to start, where did you get yours and how much?

[myeverlovinsir]

Originally posted by JDM_EpTypeR
Thanks for the compliment on the list I'm just trying to get where u are........but the motor blew up already, spark plugs were to hot, compression was to high and the engine leaned out....... detonation is a bitch, so I'm plannin on a k24 bottom and A3 top (A3 160hp, K24 166 ft-lb, hopefully combined I will have a hybrid that has 160hp & 166 ft-lbs as a base platform, then boost it when I get the cash, the Hasport supercharged K24 w/ A2 has I think 297hp at 7lbs of boost. Everyone knows that's hondas' problem ton of hp but no tourq. And everyone also knows that without tourq your car aint shit.......why u think the SRT-4 burns so much rubber if the driver lunches wrong other then the turbo? Look at the hp, tourq ratio 230hp 250ft-lbs) now if I can find a DC5R tranny at a good price then fine I'll do that but don't know where to start, where did you get yours and how much?

You blew it up. Sorry to hear that. I think your one of the first ones I have heard do that. Did you miss a shift? I did not get the type-R pistons in order to allow for boost on that block. Your absolutely right about the tq factor, I had 134ft-lbs on my ride before the head swap and could take a type-S with sheer torque in the mid range. If you would like a DC5R tranny, you could ask Derek from JMI, located in Ottawa. I would imagine it would cost you 1500 at least. Good luck on the K24/A2 setup, I may still go that route, but I am quite confident about my choices so far. I haven't seen anyone with my setup and boosted yet and would like some feedback, but that's the price of being a hybrid pioneer, no one can really give you all the info and you have to figure it out for yourself. Let us know how it pans out.;)

[JDM_EpTypeR]

Well the #2 cylinder detonated. 11.5:1 compression, #11 denso spark plugs, 93 oct, and u do know ur engine leans out at high rpms right? (Go to hondata's web site and read they tell you that...... I found out to late) plus I have a VAFC2 in my car and I leaned it out alittle more to try to pass emmisions cuz of my straight pipe........but that was not a very good combo, my motor was domed from the start, but it was not anything mechanically, that why you have not heard any one else blowin up. Tuning your motor is very important but the VAFC2 is not a toy.

[myeverlovinsir]

Yeah the VAFC2 is not something I would recommend. I don't have issue with lean/rich fuel. I tune it to fit. K20A2 K-Pro baby! And yes, it's not a toy.

[JDM_EpTypeR]

Damn that's 10 times better then the VAFC u go boy.....is it true, does your reverse lock work on the 6 speed? Don't worry about changing blocks for high hp boosting yet, let the big companies reserch that first, there are 500hp K20s out now but not K24s yet, as long as u have confidence in your engine builder to build you a strong motor

[myeverlovinsir]

Funny you should mention the rev-lockout. As you may know the A3 ECU is not capable of driving the rev-lockout on the A2/DC5R (6speed) tranny, however, even though I have the A2 K-Pro ECU and am able to drive it, I ran into issue with obtaining the correct connectors for it. I could just solder it up, but I have found that I don't really need it. It would take some really intentional minded shifting in order to try and put the shifter into reverse at speed, It's hella far away from 6th. I have been running the DC5R tranny for over 2 months now and never had to worry about shifting into 6th vs. reverse.;)

[JDM_EpTypeR]

Thanks that was the only thing holding me back from getting the k-pro, I thought 6th and reverse was close together

[Siman]

Originally posted by JDM_EpTypeR
Well the #2 cylinder detonated. 11.5:1 compression, #11 denso spark plugs, 93 oct, and u do know ur engine leans out at high rpms right? (Go to hondata's web site and read they tell you that...... I found out to late) plus I have a VAFC2 in my car and I leaned it out alittle more to try to pass emmisions cuz of my straight pipe........but that was not a very good combo, my motor was domed from the start, but it was not anything mechanically, that why you have not heard any one else blowin up. Tuning your motor is very important but the VAFC2 is not a toy.

so you are saying if you didnt lean it out for emmisions, your car motor would still be here?

How well did the A3 bottem end hold up under those revs?:D :eek:

[aRz]

ok guys im a newbie compared to you guys about this..
my 2 real good friends go all motor. always
one has a Full GSR motor in a Eg Si style hatch. the block is basically stock except for b16 pistons for compressioin,his head is fully built w/ a full skunk stage 2 setup.
My other friend has a LS-Vtec in a Ef style hatch.

Im basically the newbie amoungst them, my ep is my first car im 17 ive had the car for a about a year. their always telling me to go k24Vtec which to them is basically their B20 Vtec...

Anyway i have about $700 saved up and ive been looking around to buy a type s head and ecu. Now 1 question is can i flash my stock ecu to be compatable w/ the type s head.

in a short way can someone please SUM up this topic.4 me! PLEASE

i basically want a stock a2 head reflashed ecu and stock a3 block.

[JDM_EpTypeR]

Well Siman the bottom end held up fine to those revs I was redlining at 8665rpms with no problems, as long as u keep keep oil in the car because u know VETCs burns oil and u realy don't want your oil pump to seaz up on you, believe me its not a pretty sight, I've seen it happen.
And "aRz" as far as finding a A2 head good luck!! I was lucky enough to find on at a tuning shop. See if you can find an Asian ran tuning shop ( the ones that build race motors because they are working with the K series technology as well as B series, and they might have an extra), or check local junk yards for wrecked Type-Ss', or a salvage yard especialy pn that repos & recovers car( that where I found my K24 with 636mi. On it). Now Hondata can flash anyone of there programs on your Si ECU( the RSX flash will even give u the RSX redline) and the price will be 7 hundred and change after you pay shipping tax and shit, well that's to NYC. As far as the swap, the head bolts right up with no taping for oil like the ls/vetc set ups. Good luck

[aRz]

do you recomend buying an another ecu just in case..?
Damn, the thing is that k-series is so new you cant find parts as easey as b-series and everything is so expensive on our car still i guess im going to have to just look around...everywhere

[JDM_EpTypeR]

Buy another ECU for what? When you see the prices for ECUs you will shit your pants as well as the price for a brand new head from the dealer. On ECUs prices, it better to find a used JDM DC5R ECU with no immobilizer, its just plug and play, I found mine for $500. Now I'm going to give a pridiction, others my not feel the same way, but its an educated guess, now being there are more K24s on the road then K20s, ie. Element, TSX, Accord 4 cylinder, CRV, that is going to be the swap of choice in the future, I got my long bock for $1600. My prediction is 160hp 166ft-lbs, K24 bottom, A3 head, perfect match.

[aRz]

i can understand that and agree to some extent but,why owuld you go w/ a a3 head instread of a2.. i would rather have the real vtec any day...

[aRz]

but lemme ask you this... what would you rather have
a. a3 head k24 block
b. a2 head a3 block
c. a2 head a2 block
d. a2 head k24 block

all of these in a ep ofcource which one will give you the best bang for the buck overall?

[fsugatorbait]

Originally posted by JDM_EpTypeR
Buy another ECU for what? When you see the prices for ECUs you will shit your pants as well as the price for a brand new head from the dealer. On ECUs prices, it better to find a used JDM DC5R ECU with no immobilizer, its just plug and play, I found mine for $500. Now I'm going to give a pridiction, others my not feel the same way, but its an educated guess, now being there are more K24s on the road then K20s, ie. Element, TSX, Accord 4 cylinder, CRV, that is going to be the swap of choice in the future, I got my long bock for $1600. My prediction is 160hp 166ft-lbs, K24 bottom, A3 head, perfect match.

You might want to read this thread about using the A3 head with the k24 block...

http://www.ephatch.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=17420

[JDM_EpTypeR]

I would choose either "a" or "d" witch one, I don't know. There are not many dyno sheets out for those settups but I would deffinatly use the K24 just for the sheer tourq ......I just called my machanic and asked him cuz I have both heads and to see witch on to use, he said the use the A2 ill make more power, don't worry about the tourq, it will come. So to answer your ques. Now...... K24 /A2

[aRz]

if you just slap a a2 head on an stock a3 block wouldnt it run hot..?
and also what do you recommend for me to do buy the a2 head or k24 block first..? if i buy a2 first its going on a3 block
id i buy k24 block i rock the a3 head... what do you think?

[JDM_EpTypeR]

Well I'm going to tell you to get the K24 because of the sheer tourq, and I really would like to thank "fsugatorbait" for the info it was very helpful, I'm going to pick my K24 up today or tommarow I'm not even going to put my A2 head on because the intake and the exhaust ports are larger on the K24 head, I'm going to measure the jurnels(where the cam sit in the head) of my type-r cams and make make shore they 0are dimensionaly sound with a micrometer. Go to "Superstreetonline.com", then scroll down till you see project RR, pic it, then look at the dyno graph of the difference between the A3 block with type-r pistons, A2 head type-r cams, and the K24 block and A2 head type-r cams. As you will see the K24 had way more power threw out the power band and we are not going to talk about the tourq. So to answer your question, in my opinion I think you should get the motor, you can even use your oem ECU, and when your ready u can get a flash upgrade just remember don't rev the car past 7600rpms because of the extreme rod length.

[fsugatorbait]

Just a question, but is the k24 head that you have capable of running vtec on the exhaust cam? I thought it was similar to our A3 head by only having it on the intake cam. And no prob with the thread, it got me thinking too. :cool:

[aRz]

If you were in my position, what would you guys do...?
I have about 700 right now, eventually i want to go k24vtec.

[JDM_EpTypeR]

Hell you damn shore can't beat the performance for the dollar, especially when I saw the dyno chart from superstreet provided by skunk2 the extra power given threw out the power band is unbelieveable and the tourq we are not even going talk about. My planes are to get the motor in and turbo tha bitch. Those numbers are even better, Hasport's, jackson racing supercharged K24/A2 has 297hp with 10lbs of boost with type-R cams & stock internals!!!!!!!! That american piece of shit 2.4L turbo, 8:1 compression, 14lbs boost( SRT-4 ) aint got shit on Honda 2.4L, 9.7:1 compression, 10lbs. Boost, Tourq monster. No matter how hard you try the A2 or A will never put those numbers out( hp yes, tourq hell no). If anyone has tech ques. E-mail chris V ( reaserch and development skunk2 racing ), "chrisv@skunk2.com" he has helped me a great deal with my build up. "Fsugatorbait" good luck in which ever motor you choose. When you get your swap let me know so we can go to the track, if you need help locating things let me know I got some spots in NYC.

[fsugatorbait]

I might be picking up an A2 swap soon, so yeah a track day would be great.

[JDM_EpTypeR]

Oh and fsugatorbait I did not get the motor yet I'm tring to pic it up today I just got to get in contact with my friend to see if I can borrow his van, then I will be able to get back to you on the exhaust cam.
aRz, well depends on how much you can find the parts for because you are going to win either way, just remember when you buy the head ( I got mine for $750 and it had 1 bent valve, some say they have seen it as low as $400, and from the dealer its around $1600) plus an ecu the price on that I don't know I got my type- r ecu for $500. Now with the K24 goes for 1000 - 1600, I m getting mine for 1600 with 637mi. On it, you can use your stock ecu with that motor and with intake/ headers/ catback you will have around 170whp & 150ft-lb. So its up to you, how much you can find the parts for. Good luck if you was closer to NYC I would help out, hope you have it done by NOPI cuz I'm takin that drive this year

[aRz]

im thinking to just buy the block for now and slap it in w/ my stock a3 head...thoughts anyone?

will my hp headers fit the k24 block..?

[JDM_EpTypeR]

Now you are really looking for a needle in a haystack, 99% of places out there only sell long blocks not short blocks, the only people that sell short blocks are places like "Race Engineering" or "florida performance" or "cybernation motorsports" and those short blocks are sleaved at least, coasting the min. $1500-$2000 and they are working only with the K20 as of right now with Darton sleeves. And from I understand from your money situation that's to much for a bare block with no internals

[aRz]

i was doing some research and i read that you would lose power if you use a3 head on the stock k24 block because the intake/exhaust ports on the k24 head are larger. but i could always send my head to a machine shop and open those ports a little more to match up.

also ill be making more power once thats done beacuse i also read that the stock k24 cams die out unlike the a3 cams.

i might just say fuck all that work and just rock my stock a3 head on the k24 untill i can afford to buy the a2 head.

oh yeah, do you know what the compression would be for an a2head/k24 block...?
last but not least once i have the a2head on the k24block how high can i take the rev's too w/out doing damage to the block...?
what hondata re-flash program would i use.