How much truth is there to this??

[Gango]

Author Thread


owner02SI
The Si needs less armchair critics. [View News Item] (Score: 1, Normal) 02-20-2004 17:49


The real reason why SI 02-03 isn't selling is because of RSX. It is the biggest competitor. Its a fact that most people drive trunks & SUV more than cars in U.S. (Those super gas gozlers). Hatchback only have 5 % of the total market. (saw it somewhere online). U.S. is going more toward SUVs now since its rather hot in the market. I believe that honda decided to make SI economical and created the K20A3 version. This is because people here in the U.S. buy hatch basically to save gas. Also because our Gasoline Octane is alot lower than that of Japan or Europe. For this implimentation they had to lower the RPMs and add a Cat Cov that keeps the Gas Milage rather high. If you Change the ECU and get a Meter for RPM that gets to 10K RPM and remove the stock cat cov (also need to change header/Exhaust/intake) then you'll be able to take the RPM alot higher giving the car over 200 HP and 170 torque.

Date Subject


Got this from temple of VTEC

[dchu]

Sounds like he's talking out of his ass. It'll take a lot of work to make an A3 have 200 hp and...lol 170 ft/lb. If we made that much torque then we wouldn't need a 10k rpm redline to make 200 hp. Not to mention that then engine starts running out of steam at 7k rpm. With our implementation of i-vtec, the cam profile has to be balanced to work through the rev range. If you want to make 200 hp out of an A3, then I guarantee the low-end will suck donkey balls because the cam profile would be geared to towards high-end only.

[Peking]

Originally posted by dchu
Sounds like he's talking out of his ass. It'll take a lot of work to make an A3 have 200 hp and...lol 170 ft/lb. If we made that much torque then we wouldn't need a 10k rpm redline to make 200 hp. Not to mention that then engine starts running out of steam at 7k rpm. With our implementation of i-vtec, the cam profile has to be balanced to work through the rev range. If you want to make 200 hp out of an A3, then I guarantee the low-end will suck donkey balls because the cam profile would be geared to towards high-end only.

His first sentance made sense, along with a ton of other cars (hurting out sales) :D

[mini-driver]

first i'd have to say the biggest competitor is the ford fuc-us, just look around, they're everywhere!...and for 3-4 g's less off the lot.

SUV's, true they're hot just like minivans were in the early 90's as were station wagons in the early 80's.

honda got soft with both the si and rsx in 2002 and tried to do what every car company 's been trying since the 50's....build an all round car meaning good gas mileage and decent performance. that's the idea behind k20a3. at least here in the states where we have very strick emmissions unlike the rest of the world.

japan has the same kind of gas as we do, they just rate it differently than we do but it's essentially the same thing. england is the same. why we can't get a type-r, who knows, maybe they're trying protect us from too much power, that's a joke eh! it's pollution control if you ask me. because god knows japan would probably sell type-r's pretty quick around here if they let 'em through the door! i would have bought one!

honda people love their cars, but not everybody is a honda person.....that's why they don't sell people who don't know how great a car honda produces will never know until they buy one!

[03silverEP]

the Si would have sold better if:

-more hp, like 180 hp w/real i-Vtec
-better styling
-less weight
-lower 'sticker' price


oh well......and the number one way to sell more EP's, give us the f***ing Type-R Honda of North America

[Mugen Power]

Oo, I remember that. I took part in that discussion. :D

[bobdobbs]

Ummm... Am I the only one that likes the fact that you pass 7 dozen RSXes before you see one other EP3? You can't have both exclusivity AND sales success.

[Tenacious G]

i run across another EP once every blue moon ... especially here in B/CS. i love that fact. i love the fact my co-workers are always asking what kind of car i drive.

[goy091]

i think the main competition for the Si are all the other pocket rockets on the market and not just the RSX. and it seems that you get more bang for your buck elsewhere with those other cars. couple that with the fact that the styling of the Si is very hit or miss, seemingly more miss with most ppl. i think that would be the main reasons why the Si isnt selling to well

actually i think the new trend is moving away from SUV's and more toward economical cars.

as for the engine even w/o a cat and revving to 10k theres no way the Si would make 200hp. the Si is an econobox with a bit more go, but still an econobox, as is apparent with the vtec system.

[Type X]

Ep didn't sell for a few reasons

1. Higher "powered" competition
the si was always a "faster car for the buck" this version is a more comfy "daily driver" the all of the turbo competition

2. No promotion
Seeing a "new si" commercial was like spotting Bigfoot....
you see it... you think... but you dont know what it was or is

3. Overhyped
When the new si was revealed... it actually wasn't
all the us market saw was the type R
which the older type r *00 style* the us version wasnt a direct swap over Hatch -> coupe . Where for OUR version we went from seeing a body kitted, 17" rim, red seats and more HP to a no kit, less colors, less power etc etc version

hence peoples resentment for the car :)

and thats the bottom line
cause i fucking said so :*

[Type X]

Originally posted by bobdobbs
Ummm... Am I the only one that likes the fact that you pass 7 dozen RSXes before you see one other EP3? You can't have both exclusivity AND sales success.

true :)

and for all the people saying
BRING OVER THE TYPE R....

are you going to pay
Type R insurance?
Type R mark up?
if they are getting 24k for a HFP civic.. what do you think a CTR would be lol

people need to wake up and smell the 7 dollar starbucks


:cool:

[dj addicted]

the CTR will NEVER make it to the US... nomatter what rumor people are hearing.. Because they arent going to sacrifice the sales of the RSX type S. If they brought over the CTR, then they would have to bring over the ITR to boost the incentive to buy the RSX. Plus, with all the US emissions that need to be passed... there would be a lot of changes done to the engine..

[Peking]

Originally posted by dj addicted
the CTR will NEVER make it to the US... nomatter what rumor people are hearing.. Because they arent going to sacrifice the sales of the RSX type S. If they brought over the CTR, then they would have to bring over the ITR to boost the incentive to buy the RSX. Plus, with all the US emissions that need to be passed... there would be a lot of changes done to the engine..

Both cars would have to take it on the nose just like the EVO. Overseas the EVO has more power, gave up alittle to meet emissions.

[VividDreams]

this is what has me confused. i mean, people are always saying that they couldnt bring over the CTR cause it would hurt the RSX-S sales. ok, so what about over in japan? they have the ITR and CTR. theyre both priced pretty close to each other, they both perform similarly, etc, etc. they are, like here and everywhere else in the world, basicly the same car just with a different body shell. so, why couldnt they sell here?

[YooShin]

Originally posted by Type X
true :)

and for all the people saying
BRING OVER THE TYPE R....

are you going to pay
Type R insurance?
Type R mark up?
if they are getting 24k for a HFP civic.. what do you think a CTR would be lol

people need to wake up and smell the 7 dollar starbucks


:cool:
Preach on Type X preach on! You're right. Basically it would have to be priced in the range of a RSX-S, thus Honda would have been entreaching into their own market. Our market must respond differently then the Markets in Europe and Japan. In fact I believe that was the reason Honda gave. We'll we're all beating up the same theory. Honda made a piss poor attempt to make up for it in 04 w/ the mostly cosmetic upgrades (except the 16" wheels) and the HFP option. I think most of us were anticipating [sp] something a kin to a Type-R EK hatch for the same $$$ or less than a 6th gen Si. I know I was. If I had some good cash and my car was paid off I would consider building up an EK hatch or an Integra and leaving the EP as commuter.

[Mugen Power]

Originally posted by VividDreams
this is what has me confused. i mean, people are always saying that they couldnt bring over the CTR cause it would hurt the RSX-S sales. ok, so what about over in japan? they have the ITR and CTR. theyre both priced pretty close to each other, they both perform similarly, etc, etc. they are, like here and everywhere else in the world, basicly the same car just with a different body shell. so, why couldnt they sell here?

Well, for one thing, look how high the MSRP is for the Si now and look how much more it is for the HFP package. Now, imagine how much it would cost for the Type R. Not too many people are going to pay around $30k for a Civic.

[SiR Medic]

Too many people were expecting too much from the Si.

True, sales have been kinda blah, but its a niche car. Imagine if you could only get the Ford Focus in SVT version, how much would they sell?

The Si IS competitive against the cars it was meant to compete with, like the GTI and Sentra SE-R.

What caught everybody off-guard was the popularity of "high-end" tuner cars like the WRX, STi, and the EVO. Also, the resurgance of "real" sports cars like the 350Z. Don't forget the impact made by the SRT-4.

What the Si has done is keep the "enthusiast spirit" at Honda. Who knows, maybe the next Si will be a 220hp, awd, WRX killer?

[Mugen Power]

Don't forget, I think this is the last year you can get the SVT, too. Hot hatches just aren't big sellers here. Before anyone says anything about GTIs, those are definitely marketed to a different crowd with a different mentality. Also, the US is the only country where the Jetta OUTSELLS the GTI, which still goes on to prove that hatches aren't all that popular here.

[Tenacious G]

Originally posted by SiR Medic
Too many people were expecting too much from the Si.

exactly.

[Mugen Power]

That's probably true, but at the same time, can you blame them? People usually expect the next iteration of a car to be noticeably better than the previous generation. When most of the stories of old Si vs. new Si end in "it depends on the driver," obviously people are going to get a little turned off. Also, when people see the horsepower numbers of the EP vs. the EM, they might also get turned off. Sure, the EP has nicer features and more torque than the EM, but your average guy probably won't see that. I find that a lot of people live by magazine time numbers and the EP just doesn't cut it in that area. I think essentially what happened was that Honda pulled another CRX mistake. The del Sol was a neat car, had nicer features, and more power than the EF-based CRX but it was a flop because people expected so much more from it, being the next CRX.

[Tenacious G]

Originally posted by Mugen Power
That's probably true, but at the same time, can you blame them? People usually expect the next iteration of a car to be noticeably better than the previous generation.

you brought up the point that it depends on the driver. so, wouldn't that apply to the above statement? CSMsi311 has the EM1. I have the EP3. imo, i think the EP3 is a much better car than the EM1. more torque, better fit and finish, hatchback cargo space, the uniqueness. he, on the other hand, will bring up that he's got coupe styling, higher revs, real VTEC. in fact, i remember when the EM1 came out, people complained that, while it was a nice car, you had to rev the crap out of it to get any power. so, Honda produces the K20A3, and now people are complaining that the revs are too low, and there's no upper-end grunt. when will the madness end?????

the point is, this debate can go on forever. comparing the EP to other cars will simply result in you spinning your wheels endlessly.

[Mugen Power]

Yeah, but my point is that the appeal isn't there to a lot of people for some of the reasons I mentioned above. When people hear MSRP of $19k netting only 160hp and not too fast 0-60 and 1/4 mile times, they WILL compare it to other cars and think that for $19k, they can get a faster Spec V or SRT-4.

[Tenacious G]

i personally can't compare it to an SRT-4 based on MSRP because i didn't pay anywhere near that total. i got mine for less than $16K, which is what it should have been selling for all along. if you paid $18-$19K for your EP, then you deserve to be mad ... at yourself for shelling out that kind of money for it. ;)

[Mugen Power]

HA! I don't think ANY car is worth MSRP so I didn't pay MSRP for mine either. ;)

But we all know people who believe MSRP is a great deal (due to crazy markups) and when you're shopping for a car, MSRP and horsepower are probably the top two considerations on the list for a lot of people. And that's just one thing about the EP that doesn't cut it for those people.

[YooShin]

Originally posted by Mugen Power
Don't forget, I think this is the last year you can get the SVT, too. Hot hatches just aren't big sellers here. Before anyone says anything about GTIs, those are definitely marketed to a different crowd with a different mentality. Also, the US is the only country where the Jetta OUTSELLS the GTI, which still goes on to prove that hatches aren't all that popular here.
Your right on. The target market for the GTi is geared toward the Euro car enthusiast whom hopes to one day upgrade to an Audi S4 or BMW M3. Remember once when GTis where called the "poor mans M3" or the "poor mans Audi". And yes the hatch market hasn't been doing well in the market of (now) "sport" SUVs and believe it or not the return of the minivan. The successfull examples like the SRT-4s and WRXs are rare. I've read an article about Dodges mission w/ the SRT-4 and they'ed claim that they in deed took a huge gamble w/ the project, stating that it needs to be manufactured fast and in large #s and needs to sell even faster for them to make any money on it all. Subaru has had similar issues w/ the WRX. They also need to mass volume manufact. & sell or they start loosing their but in margins. This strategy also forces other factors that will ultimately affect the car that is made, like quality. The WRX has had a so-so track record so far and the SRT-4, well, do we really need to analyze that one? It all boils down to the econemy of scales effect (for all you econ, marketing and finance folks). Honda's marketing has always been fairly conservative (example: accord and even the NSX) w/ few exceptions like the S2000 and the Element. They've had enough failures in being daring to know that they can only stretch so far (the Del Sol, CL Coupe). Come on, even Honda's CEO has children to feed.

[SiCK EP3]

Personally, I love the fact that I rarely see another Si on the road. I live about a mile away from the Honda Dealer where I purchased my car, and i had to order mine and wait a month to get it in Black. As for the RSX...everywhere it seems, and dont get me wrong, its an amazing car and if I didnt get my Si, i probably would've purchased it. I just love that our cars aren't "rare" persay, but unique.