Hondata dynos overlaid onto each other

[BarracksSi]

I think it's been done before, but a quick search didn't turn anything up. Plus, there might be some new performance data out there with different i/h/e setups and whatnot. Mods, I won't be offended if this got moved to the Engine forum, but I figured it'd get traffic in EP Discussion, at least for a while.

Anyway, I Photoshopped the dyno graphs posted on Hondata's K20a3 page. Put one over the other, resized so the lines on the graph match up, changed the top layer's opacity to 50% (so they're both equally gray), and changed colors to differentiate the four graphs from each other.

Since the color keys are a mess on the image, here's what they are:
Red - flash, 91 oct., stock i/h
Blue - stock everything, 87 octane
Purple - CAI, DC header, stock ECU, 91 octane
Green - CAI, DC, 91, reflash

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wMzc4MTk1NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

[civic hatch boi]

yup, that's exactly what i did.. that's what made me not want hondata.. notice green is under the red almost the entire time.. until around 5500...

[BarracksSi]

But, if I've got no motor mods, the Hondata reflash would be a better upgrade than a CAI & header, it seems.

Just to add more discussion... ;)

[civic hatch boi]

yeah that's wut i thought.. that's why i was goign to sell my cai and midpipe, and just get hondata.. then everyone started saying... "u at least need a CAI".. but that doesn't make sense cuz you lose power everywhere... or at least that's wut the dyno tells me..

[RMC22]

Uhh... Yeah thats because Hondata shifted around when the car makes peak power.
When you are racing (at the strip, of course), how often are you under 4k?

[BarracksSi]

My upgrades this year are in suspension, so I'm giving myself another year or so of pondering before I decide what to do with the motor.

I'm hardly at the strip, either (haven't even done a single run, actually!), so the sub-4k range is still important to me. I'm getting more interested in autocrossing anyway, so that bottom-end torque would be nice for running around in 2nd gear.

[HondataEP3]

Originally posted by RMC22
Uhh... Yeah thats because Hondata shifted around when the car makes peak power.
When you are racing (at the strip, of course), how often are you under 4k?

EXACTLY!!! so don't sell hondata short

[RMC22]

So you lose around 4hp, but get it back up top and for longer. Even autocross you spend a good deal of time near the top. 4 ponies isn't going to make or break your time, but it could save from a costly shift that would then require a downshift.

[bao_pay]

My only problem with this comparison is that the header is useless without a midpipe and muffler. How can you get more exhuast fumes out if it bottlenecks? The comparison would be better if it was an axelback or catback instead of a header... or i/h/e all together. That would make for a better comparison.

Hondata does look very strong in torque tho.

[!@#$%]

if you are worried about misshifting your motor, you have no place to even buy hondata.

learn the car first, then work with it.

[BarracksSi]

Originally posted by !@#$%
if you are worried about misshifting your motor, you have no place to even buy hondata.

learn the car first, then work with it.

I think the meaning was that you wouldn't have to lose time by shifting into & out of 3rd (at least in the autocross example).

[Dunrick]

my only regrets to my car - MODDING THIS ENGINE

i wish I put it all in suspension.....ep3 can rail...but it cant go unless you get a engine swap

[civic hatch boi]

Originally posted by Dunrick
my only regrets to my car - MODDING THIS ENGINE

i wish I put it all in suspension.....ep3 can rail...but it cant go unless you get a engine swap


true, but not completely true. just depends how fast u wanna be able to go.. anjapower got 14.6 which to me is quite impressive.. of course its not 13's like the a2 is capable of.

[RMC22]

Originally posted by BarracksSi
I think the meaning was that you wouldn't have to lose time by shifting into & out of 3rd (at least in the autocross example).

Exactly.
Although, I am worried about misshifting, but I've had Hondata for a year.

When I say I'm worried about misshifting I mean I don't do it.. technically, I'm worried about it ;)

[Mighty_Mouse]

Originally posted by civic hatch boi
yup, that's exactly what i did.. that's what made me not want hondata.. notice green is under the red almost the entire time.. until around 5500...

I don't understand your point. The red line IS Hondata and the green line is Honda + I/H.

[BarracksSi]

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
I don't understand your point. The red line IS Hondata and the green line is Honda + I/H.

He's already got i/h/e and didn't want to bother adding Hondata.

[Mighty_Mouse]

Originally posted by BarracksSi
He's already got i/h/e and didn't want to bother adding Hondata.

Gotcha! I'm still glad that I've gotten my Hondata, eventhough the gains probably aren't worth the $600 price tag. The extra revs are VERY needed and the improved fuel tables the car much nicer to drive around town.

[Dunrick]

Originally posted by civic hatch boi
true, but not completely true. just depends how fast u wanna be able to go.. anjapower got 14.6 which to me is quite impressive.. of course its not 13's like the a2 is capable of.

Anja has some speed, but if he put all that money into a stock a2 (which he is going to do), he would have just as much performance....

[bobdobbs]

All this Hondata versus i/h/e talk misses the main point: Our head just doesn't breathe like it should. That's the bottleneck. Either an A2 head or engine swap or FI seem to be the only effective solutions.

EDIT: I know I'm not telling you guys anything you don't already know; I'm just venting. :(

[BarracksSi]

According to Hondata's dyno charts, all the way up to about 6700 rpm, a reflashed Si A3 motor is very close -- actually stronger than -- a Type-S A2, with or without a flashed ECU. In fact, about the only part where the A3 begins to lose ground is up top just over 6K where the curve tapers off.

I'll suppose that the far right of the graph is where the better-breathing A2 head comes into play. Up to that point, though, the A3 does very well for itself, and I'm rather surprised.

Blue = all-stock A3
Red = reflashed A3
Purple = stock RSX-S A2
Green = reflashed RSX-S A2

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wMzgwMjM3NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

[BarracksSi]

Originally posted by bobdobbs
... just doesn't breathe like it should. ...

... I'm just venting. :(

Just noticed that you're venting about breathing... ;)

[DarkHatch]

Originally posted by bobdobbs
All this Hondata versus i/h/e talk misses the main point: Our head just doesn't breathe like it should. That's the bottleneck. Either an A2 head or engine swap or FI seem to be the only effective solutions.

EDIT: I know I'm not telling you guys anything you don't already know; I'm just venting. :(

What about a port and polish on the a3 head? Do you think it would be worth it?

[BarracksSi]

Originally posted by DarkHatch
What about a port and polish on the a3 head? Do you think it would be worth it?

That won't affect the lift & duration of the valvetrain. Porting & polishing would make some difference, but it won't account for the entirely different mechanism on the A2.

[BarracksSi]

Originally posted by BarracksSi
I'll suppose that the far right of the graph is where the better-breathing A2 head comes into play.

Looking at it again (especially the torque curve), the A3 begins to drop off at about 5200 rpm, while the A2 keeps on going.

The A2's "real VTEC" engagement is 5200 rpm. That's where the better breathing comes from, not porting & polishing.

The question I have now is how to keep that nice low-end torque of the A3 while opening up the range from 5500 to fuel cutoff.