rant: bad sound, shitty idle, and a fucked up ep3.

[trk]

Today at a road race track I had a major issue that resulted in a complete breakdown of my si.

I need help, but I also thought I should share.

First of all my setup is:
k20a3 w/hondata, icebox cai, dc header, megan hiflow cat, caspers o2 simulator, spoon axleback and a 2.25 crush bent midpipe ...

All of a sudden the car wouldn't accelerate, starting sounding like a 60's muscle car, idle has been utter shit ever since ... reset ecu, removed o2 sim, checked plugs (black), put new plugs in (they blackened instantly), car never recovered, towed it home, smell of fuel in the oil, on the spark plugs, and in the exhaust and even in the cat. WTF.

Anyone?

My theory is that the o2 simulator sits there lying to the ecu, so the ecu keeps adding fuel, hondata lets it get way to rich and BLAMMO. Or the opposite... maybe it got too lean? Doug (from hondata) you out there?

There was no oil lost, no metal in oil, no smell from the internals, no major pinging --- although there is a loud ticking from the ?injectors? or ?valves? --- but it has been that way for at least a year now, its gotten louder lately, so I took it into honda last week, they said the valves were at there loosest possible within "spec" setting and therefore couldn't be adjusted under warranty for free... so I scheduled to have a valve adjustment done later this week with a local tuner... obviously that wont happen this week. ;(

Hopefully I will have honda tow it in to a dealership for warranty work on monday (hopefully they will cover it all) ... I removed the o2 sim, the hondata sticker , and the hiflow cat/test pipe. Hopefully my intake, header and axleback won't freak a dealer out too bad. Should I change the exhaust back to stock? and remove the intake too? FYI, the dealership knows I have mods but has been great so far about all the little warranty work.

... if anyone has any useful/helpful threads, ideas, pointers, or thoughts... please post them.

Thanks,
Tai

[Tenacious G]

as far as the 60s sound goes, CSMsi311 blew an exhaust gasket at the strip once. he had a rough idle and exhaust sounds. have you checked that?

[trk]

Originally posted by Tenacious G
as far as the 60s sound goes, CSMsi311 blew an exhaust gasket at the strip once. he had a rough idle and exhaust sounds. have you checked that?

Interesting. Exhaust manifold (header) gasket? or exhaust to cat gasket (theres a dinky one down there, lol)?

Could he drive his car home after that gasket blew?

[evilep3]

sorry to hear about the problems...
seems like alot of eps are having problems lately. most of them have hondata too.......
:rolleyes:

hmmm...


anyway one time i lost a exhaust gasket and it was DOPE. sounds sooo awsome. couple friends with wrx's gave me compliments. However the car was running kind of sluggish for the 30 mins that it was off so i took it straight to my uncles shop. runns like a champ now.

[siver-SI]

Originally posted by Tenacious G
as far as the 60s sound goes, CSMsi311 blew an exhaust gasket at the strip once. he had a rough idle and exhaust sounds. have you checked that?

I think you might have something there. With little to no back preasure to the engine it would cause all of that.

Just wondering have you tryed to start up the car now that the engine has cooled down?

[Tenacious G]

it was the gasket between the downpipe and cat, i think. he's got the EM1 and he's boosted, so i think the gasket was just old. he was able to limp home. i hear you're supposed to replace the gaskets when you do any exhaust work, so i'm wondering if that's the problem.

as far as the fuel smell in your oil and spark plugs, i have no clue what causes that. i'm guessing the 02 sim was causing you to run really rich. i wish i had more suggestions for you man. sorry

[trk]

great info so far... ill try turning the car over in the morning...

thanks.

anyone have an idea on how I can get a tool to pull out the CEL code on a sunday with a car that cant drive to a dealership?

[siver-SI]

Originally posted by trk
great info so far... ill try turning the car over in the morning...

thanks.

anyone have an idea on how I can get a tool to pull out the CEL code on a sunday with a car that cant drive to a dealership?

Do you have a auto zone very close to you? I know they have the tester and they will do it for free. You just have to drive there though because I do not think that they rent that tool out.

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by trk
great info so far... ill try turning the car over in the morning...

thanks.

anyone have an idea on how I can get a tool to pull out the CEL code on a sunday with a car that cant drive to a dealership?
do you have a casper electronics o2 sim? Not sure yet, but I believe that may be a problem, I recently installed mine and I got a cel right away, I stopped the car and haven't got a chance to mess with it....

anyway, to read your cel...check this out:
http://home.comcast.net/~rsxmachine/info/CEL/
It works the same for the si, I've done it...if you don't have a manual and need to know what the flash reads (if it's not on that site), let me know and I'll check for you, I have a manual.

hope we figure this out

[skooba]

Originally posted by trk
checked plugs (black), put new plugs in (they blackened instantly), car never recovered, towed it home, smell of fuel in the oil, on the spark plugs, and in the exhaust and even in the cat. WTF.



well that means you're running rich if they turned black instantly. we changed my friends yesterday, and they were very white. he was running lean, we swapped out an ecu and it fixed the problem with his car. but this was an EG hatch.

[trk]

Originally posted by 02SilverSiHB
do you have a casper electronics o2 sim? Not sure yet, but I believe that may be a problem, I recently installed mine and I got a cel right away, I stopped the car and haven't got a chance to mess with it....

anyway, to read your cel...check this out:
http://home.comcast.net/~rsxmachine/info/CEL/
It works the same for the si, I've done it...if you don't have a manual and need to know what the flash reads (if it's not on that site), let me know and I'll check for you, I have a manual.

hope we figure this out

Excellent link .... thanks ... something to try today ... ;)

[trk]

Originally posted by skooba
well that means you're running rich if they turned black instantly. we changed my friends yesterday, and they were very white. he was running lean, we swapped out an ecu and it fixed the problem with his car. but this was an EG hatch.

Im afraid its the ecu too.... argh. Fuck, hondata and that stupid sim. We'll see... Ill pull the codes today and post ...

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by trk
Im afraid its the ecu too.... argh. Fuck, hondata and that stupid sim. We'll see... Ill pull the codes today and post ...
so I wonder if the sim is messing with the hondata tune, that's freaking weird if it is.

[trk]

Originally posted by 02SilverSiHB
so I wonder if the sim is messing with the hondata tune, that's freaking weird if it is.

My thoughts exactly. Anyway, Im going to breakfast... when I get back i'll try to pull the codes.

[andy]

My 2 cents on the subject:
Without the 02 sim, the stock ECU will be in open loop mode and it essentially just ignores the 2nd 02 sensor (b/c it's getting a faulty reading, anyway), dumps more fuel and runs on a "base map".
With the 02 sim, you're back in closed loop mode and the ECU is adjusting for the readings it's getting from the 2nd 02 sensor, even though technically it is a false reading.

I drove like that (stock ECU, no 02 sim) for a while. Since, I've added Hondata and the 02 sim (at the same time). I haven't had any problems, I'm not running as rich (I can tell from the mileage).

If anything, I think you were probably running lean. Why it all of a sudden just crapped out on your, I dunno. I agree with the comments that it might be gasket (b/c if one all of a sudden blew, you'd get the instant crappyness), but you really aren't gonna know until you read the code. Keep us updated...

[trk]

Originally posted by andy
My 2 cents on the subject:
Without the 02 sim, the stock ECU will be in open loop mode and it essentially just ignores the 2nd 02 sensor (b/c it's getting a faulty reading, anyway), dumps more fuel and runs on a "base map".
With the 02 sim, you're back in closed loop mode and the ECU is adjusting for the readings it's getting from the 2nd 02 sensor, even though technically it is a false reading.

sounds right


Originally posted by andy
I drove like that (stock ECU, no 02 sim) for a while. Since, I've added Hondata and the 02 sim (at the same time). I haven't had any problems, I'm not running as rich (I can tell from the mileage).

But do you race it... And I mean for 15-30 minute track heats where you are revving it up to about 7-7500k for almost every turn.

I personally dont think the hondata tune is up to that kind of abuse. Its a street based product, I mean really how many pro track/touring racers use it? Probably none.


Originally posted by andy
If anything, I think you were probably running lean. Why it all of a sudden just crapped out on your, I dunno. I agree with the comments that it might be gasket (b/c if one all of a sudden blew, you'd get the instant crappyness), but you really aren't gonna know until you read the code. Keep us updated...

If I was running lean why the black plugs (twice).

Also, the gasket looked fine when I put my stock cat back on?

Thanks for the ideas guys... keep it up.
Tai

[andy]

Originally posted by trk
...
But do you race it... And I mean for 15-30 minute track heats where you are revving it up to about 7-7500k for almost every turn.


You're right, I don't race it. Especially not on a road track (I've been to one autoX and have been known to hit it hard on the street).



If I was running lean why the black plugs (twice).


I'm thinkinng running lean prior to the problem, something popped/happened, now you're running rich. I dunno.



Also, the gasket looked fine when I put my stock cat back on?


Did you check the header gasket? Or just the header-to-cat gasket. Didn't someone else mention their header gasket blew?

[!@#$%]

on the dyno, with i/h/e and hondata my car was a bit lean.

buddy of mine blew an exhaust gasket on his s10 and had that gurgling stutter with crappy performance.

Always fix the cheapest thing first.

[02SilverSiHB]

I know that Blastech autoxes and has the hondata flash, haven't heard anything from him about anything bad happening.

Also, andy, with the o2 sim on the 2nd o2 sensor, doesn't this make the ecu unaware of what the acutal a/f ratio is...which with some one like me with a jrsc, it could run lean? Or maybe that wouldn't happen since I have the jr power card that opens the injectors up during boost...

[NemesisITR]

My car did the exact thing when I dropped my valve. Sounded like an old muscle car, no power, and running rich (gas smell).

[trk]

Originally posted by NemesisITR
My car did the exact thing when I dropped my valve. Sounded like an old muscle car, no power, and running rich (gas smell).

Interesting. How did you do that? What kind of driving and mods?

Covered under warranty?

[anjapower]

that is pretty screwed up man. I wonder if the extended hi-revving damaged the motor...it seems our heads are very sensitive to hi-revs, but people have been using the k20a2 hondata reflash's 8600 rev limit on our block.

Hmm, makes me very skeptical about the long term effect of hondata on my car.

[trk]

The codes I pulled are:

71
P0301
No. 1 Cylinder Misfire

72
P0302
No. 2 Cylinder Misfire

Tai

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by trk
The codes I pulled are:

71
P0301
No. 1 Cylinder Misfire

72
P0302
No. 2 Cylinder Misfire

Tai
have you tried replacing the plugs yet?

[BarracksSi]

Originally posted by 02SilverSiHB
have you tried replacing the plugs yet?

or plug wires? (long shot, I know)

[NemesisITR]

Originally posted by trk
Interesting. How did you do that? What kind of driving and mods?

Covered under warranty?

Misshifting on road course, freeze data revs of 10k and 12.5k. Nope not covered under warranty do to "driver error".

Mine was sounding like an old muscle car because I had lost compression due to the fact my whole entire valve train went to shit and one of my cylinders was totally damaged from dropping the valve into it.

[DavidT]

trk the symptoms you've mention sound a lot like a bent valve. Our head wasn't built to rev constantly after 7k+ RPMs. The A3 don't have uber valve springs like the A2 motor. Extended periods of racing above the stock redline may have caused the valves to float, the piston will smack the valves and bend it, even if it's just a slight small bend it's still out of tolerance and now your cylinders aren't sealing correctly and you will misfire and cough a lot during idling and cruising.

I highly doubt that your 02 simulator and Hondata are bad, it's most likely something with your motor.


I personally dont think the hondata tune is up to that kind of abuse. Its a street based product, I mean really how many pro track/touring racers use it? Probably none.

I honestly think our A3 motors aren't up to that kind of abuse. Hondata is all for it...all it is is just a ECU program doing it's job. There's nothing to go wrong with it unless you short out the ECU. And most pro track/touring racers aren't using A3 motors, they are using A2 motors and a lot of them now have a form Hondata tuning on their A2 motors (i.e: Skunk2, Toda, Jackson Racing, etc. all use a form of Hondata's programming)

But, we'll see what the dealer has to say. A full diagnoses will tell. Good luck to you trk hope the outcome is something besides mechanical work to your motor.

[trk]

I honestly think our A3 motors aren't up to that kind of abuse. Hondata is all for it...all it is is just a ECU program doing it's job.

Yeah... BUT THEY wrote the flash, THEY set the revs that high, THEY claim its safe, THEY dont mention mods to stay away from, THEY dont mention altitude leaning it out, THEY dont even warn of over revving, THEY sell it, etc.

At this point Im laying blame on hondata for not testing or notifying there customer in anyway to the dangers of there flash, in fact in some threads I've seen them claim our engine could rev to 10K. Either way, it leaned it out, it blew...My thoughts are without hondata it WOULD NOT have happened.

[oogy-boogy]

Originally posted by trk
Yeah... BUT THEY wrote the flash, THEY set the revs that high, THEY claim its safe, THEY dont mention mods to stay away from, THEY dont mention altitude leaning it out, THEY dont even warn of over revving, THEY sell it, etc.

At this point Im laying blame on hondata for not testing or notifying there customer in anyway to the dangers of there flash, in fact in some threads I've seen them claim our engine could rev to 10K. Either way, it leaned it out, it blew...My thoughts are without hondata it WOULD NOT have happened.

Wow, this is depressing...


Everything you've stated sounds like my whole incident:
Bad / rough idle
sounds like crap
runs like crap




I ended up getting a new block and head covered by the warranty. Basically, the tech stated one of the rollers on rocker arm 1 disintegrated causes all sorts of poo including one of the valves dropping in cylinder 1.

[Hondata]

Originally posted by DavidT
A full diagnosis will tell.

This is correct.

Time to put to bed some of the misinformation posted here and replace it with facts.

- The Hondata flash for the NA Civic Si does not change the fuel settings in any way from the stock ECU. Any claims that damage due to leaning are as as a result of the Hondata flash are completely without merit.

- All K series ECUs lean the fuel at higher altitude. They have too, there is less oxygen. Basic physics and chemistry is at work here. It is a standard function with Honda ECUs. This has implications only with boosted vehicles that do not have the correct altitude compensation in their engine management.

- From Hondata's web site for the Civic Si flash "Any increase in RPM limit is at your own risk. If you suffer engine damage that is related to excessive revs Honda / Acura will not cover your warranty."

[ADAMnQuickCIVIC]

Originally posted by BarracksSi
or plug wires? (long shot, I know)

REAL long shot considering the ep does not have plug wires. ;)

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by Hondata
This is correct.

Time to put to bed some of the misinformation posted here and replace it with facts.

1 - The Hondata flash for the NA Civic Si does not change the fuel settings in any way from the stock ECU. Any claims that damage due to leaning are as as a result of the Hondata flash are completely without merit.

2 - From Hondata's web site for the Civic Si flash "Any increase in RPM limit is at your own risk. If you suffer engine damage that is related to excessive revs Honda / Acura will not cover your warranty."
1. Strange, from hondatas site it almost sounds like it messes with the fuel.
"The K20A3-Si program advances the ignition, alters the cam timing and optimizes the fuel for a cold air intakeb, adding 4-9 ft lb across the rev range."
I guess that can be a misconception reading that.

2. True, can't miss that, I've seen that sentence from the beginning when it came out.

[NemesisITR]

Originally posted by ADAMnQuickCIVIC
REAL long shot considering the ep does not have plug wires. ;)

So what do you call the wires coming off of the spark plugs?

I call them plug wires. SO I think the ep does have plug wires.

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by NemesisITR
So what do you call the wires coming off of the spark plugs?

I call them plug wires. SO I think the ep does have plug wires.
it has coils, plug wires are different

[chunky]

time for a compression & leakdown test.

[trk]

Originally posted by Hondata
- The Hondata flash for the NA Civic Si does not change the fuel settings in any way from the stock ECU.

- Any claims that damage due to leaning are as as a result of the Hondata flash are completely without merit.


Those are some REALLY broad blanket statements to be making.

-

Let me say one thing, if the stock ecu cant go to 7700 rpm how would Hondata "not change the fuel settings in any way from the stock ECU" when it is inherently doing something the stock ecu cant do.

Thats just straight up BS.

[fASTBACK]

I see the blame so far is on Hondata for not doing enough R&D. Is the member named "Hondata" a representitive from Hondata.We need some answers from them after you get your results back.

[ADAMnQuickCIVIC]

Originally posted by NemesisITR
So what do you call the wires coming off of the spark plugs?

I call them plug wires. SO I think the ep does have plug wires.

I will bet you pink slips that an ep does not have plug wires. lol

[fASTBACK]

Originally posted by NemesisITR
So what do you call the wires coming off of the spark plugs?

I call them plug wires. SO I think the ep does have plug wires.

I believe we have coil paks.

[trk]

Jesus people, our car has direct coil ignition... NO spark plug wires.

--


I just got a call from Honda ... the #2 cylinder is history, kerplow, gonner ... and they said as long as they dont find N20 remnants/traces in my oil tonight ... (which they wont) --- they will honor the warranty. Phew. Thank you Honda. This is the last time I buy a "new" car with 400 miles on it and the last time I use an o2 sim and possibly the last time I use a Hondata product. Oh well, lesson(s) learned.

Oh yeah, and valve adjustments are key if you guys pound on your cars like I have. AutoX, track, drag, whatever... it all takes a shitload out of your car. I know I'm gonna be more reserved and careful with this new engine.

[anjapower]

looks like it will work out for you Tai, congrats.

If I may ask, how often do you redline your car per week on average? I would have to say that I must take it to 8k about 40-50 times a week. I've also hit the revlimiter probably 40-50 times since I've had Hondata on my car. I don't even know how many dragstrip passes my car has made, probably in the 70-80 range, including 3 autox events.

I also had one unfortunate misshift coming out of 3rd at 8k on the tach, intending to go to 4th but went to second. Tach needle went WAY past the 8k mark.

I haven't done any compression or leakdown tests but my car put down 165 whp and 135 wtq just 2 weeks ago and ran a 14.6 in the quarter. I have 18,670 miles on my car and so far so good. I've had Hondata on my car for about 15,500 miles.

I don't know if I'd discount the company so early, but I definitely think that our engine doesn't like being revved over 7500ish, or atleast thats what it sounds like when taking it past that.

[NemesisITR]

Originally posted by fASTBACK
I believe we have coil paks.

I knew we had coil paks, but I thought the wires coming off of the spark plugs were still called spark plug wires.

[NemesisITR]

Originally posted by anjapower
looks like it will work out for you Tai, congrats.


I also had one unfortunate misshift coming out of 3rd at 8k on the tach, intending to go to 4th but went to second. Tach needle went WAY past the 8k mark.

I haven't done any compression or leakdown tests but my car put down 165 whp and 135 wtq just 2 weeks ago and ran a 14.6 in the quarter. I have 18,670 miles on my car and so far so good. I've had Hondata on my car for about 15,500 miles.

I don't know if I'd discount the company so early, but I definitely think that our engine doesn't like being revved over 7500ish, or atleast thats what it sounds like when taking it past that.

Thats what I did and my motor blew 6 months later, breaking a valve retainer in half and dropping a valve.

Just curious what mods do you have?

[DavidT]

trk, did Honda tell you what was wrong with cylinder two? Like bent valve, bad rod, piston ring blew?

I know you dislike Hondata a lot right now, but any modification to your car is done at your own risk so it's your own fault (Don't worry I'm guilty of it as well :D ) I mean it says right on Hondata's website, "Any increase in RPM limit is at your own risk. If you suffer engine damage that is related to excessive revs Honda / Acura will not cover your warranty."

Don't knock on Hondata for not enough R&D time on the flash, w/o them the A3 motor wouldn't be fun at all w/o forced induction (Or A2s for that matter). Our cars simply did not ship from the factory with performance valve springs, I mean hell our stock redline is a ghey 6800 RPMs. I still remember seeing your dyno compared to other EPs w/o the flash and the flash is working as designed.

Anyhow, hope everything works out good for you. Good luck bro.

[2fastcivic]

where's hondata at?? seems like they aint got much to say about this. and if they dont change the fuel settings on the Si flash then everyone is getting ripped off for $600. all you hondata users, go get your refunds b/c you've been taken. i told you those hondata bastards are too greedy.

[myeverlovinsir]

We all know, and I have posted numerous times that the power starts to drop after 7500rpm on the A3 head. There is no need to dis Hondata, they are bang on when it comes to tuning. It's a few and far between where someone reports a floating valve, and that's just what happened here. If you can't afford to rev your engine and just want someone to point the finger at when things don't go your way, then you should not be reving it to begin with. You will likely spend a few moments more before you rev it again, but I suspect this is not anything to do with hondata, just a bent valve that resulted from over-reving, however it happened. I rev the shit out of my ride and don't worry about it much anymore with the A2 head and K-pro, however I would never blame Hondata about it, nor would I want to rant about who did what to my engine. I am in total control and paid for that control. If I blow my engine or bend a valve or do damage I blame myself. You guys may not be able to pay for a whole engine or the repairs when shit goes wrong, but you have to be a little more appreciative of what you have and how it is used. Hell, most of you guys will just beat the shit out of a Hondata flash, and it will take it, however when things go wrong I have to say you asked for it and I strongly doubt it has anything to do with the flash itself. just my .02 cents

[siver-SI]

Originally posted by 2fastcivic
where's hondata at?? seems like they aint got much to say about this. and if they dont change the fuel settings on the Si flash then everyone is getting ripped off for $600. all you hondata users, go get your refunds b/c you've been taken. i told you those hondata bastards are too greedy.

I have to agree with you. To me it does not seem you get your moneys worth with the $600 package. I would rather put out the extra $ for the K-pro since you know there is going to be a lot better HP gains and longer engine life with it since you can adjust and tune the car as needed.

[DavidT]

Originally posted by 2fastcivic
where's hondata at?? seems like they aint got much to say about this. and if they dont change the fuel settings on the Si flash then everyone is getting ripped off for $600. all you hondata users, go get your refunds b/c you've been taken. i told you those hondata bastards are too greedy.

DUDE who gives a shit if it alters cam timing or not, have you seen third party dynos of Hondata EPs vs stock EPs w/o Hondata? Hondata EPs make more power and farther into the powerband vs. non Hondata EPs. If you're too cheap to afford it, then don't say anything about it.

[trk]

Originally posted by anjapower
looks like it will work out for you Tai, congrats.

If I may ask, how often do you redline your car per week on average? I would have to say that I must take it to 8k about 40-50 times a week. I've also hit the revlimiter probably 40-50 times since I've had Hondata on my car. I don't even know how many dragstrip passes my car has made, probably in the 70-80 range, including 3 autox events.

I also had one unfortunate misshift coming out of 3rd at 8k on the tach, intending to go to 4th but went to second. Tach needle went WAY past the 8k mark.

I haven't done any compression or leakdown tests but my car put down 165 whp and 135 wtq just 2 weeks ago and ran a 14.6 in the quarter. I have 18,670 miles on my car and so far so good. I've had Hondata on my car for about 15,500 miles.

I don't know if I'd discount the company so early, but I definitely think that our engine doesn't like being revved over 7500ish, or atleast thats what it sounds like when taking it past that.

Thats about how I drive it. Less drag, a little less redlining.

Though it may sound like it ... IM NOT blaming Hondata... Im venting. One thing I do know is without it this would not have happened. I did not over rev and pop a valve ... I feel I eventually bent a valve because I was consistently going that high. I know its my responsibility, I blew it, I believed a product and engine could handle what they are made to do... now I know thats an ignorant assumption.

[anjapower]

NemesisITR, I just have cai, comptech race header, exhaust and hondata reflash + gasket.

Tai, how many miles on your car?

This is the 4th person I'm hearing about blowing their motor (NemesisITR, oogy-boogy, trk, and one other person). Scary thing is, all of them had Hondata:o

This is def. gonna make me think twice next time I'm going into the red w/ my car.

[trk]

Originally posted by anjapower
NemesisITR, I just have cai, comptech race header, exhaust and hondata reflash + gasket.

Tai, how many miles on your car?

This is the 4th person I'm hearing about blowing their motor (NemesisITR, oogy-boogy, trk, and one other person). Scary thing is, all of them had Hondata:o

This is def. gonna make me think twice next time I'm going into the red w/ my car.

About 22,000 miles on my car.

Shit, lets start a poll about hondata ...

http://ephatch.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37380

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by trk
Jesus people, our car has direct coil ignition... NO spark plug wires.

--


I just got a call from Honda ... the #2 cylinder is history, kerplow, gonner ... and they said as long as they dont find N20 remnants/traces in my oil tonight ... (which they wont) --- they will honor the warranty. Phew. Thank you Honda. This is the last time I buy a "new" car with 400 miles on it and the last time I use an o2 sim and possibly the last time I use a Hondata product. Oh well, lesson(s) learned.

Oh yeah, and valve adjustments are key if you guys pound on your cars like I have. AutoX, track, drag, whatever... it all takes a shitload out of your car. I know I'm gonna be more reserved and careful with this new engine.
I don't think the o2 sim had anything to do with it...I can't remember,but you have a casper o2 sim right? A lot of people on clubrsx have had it for a while plus hondata and haven't had any problems. So you only had 400 miles when you bought hondata?

[myeverlovinsir]

Originally posted by 02SilverSiHB
I don't think the o2 sim had anything to do with it...I can't remember,but you have a casper o2 sim right? A lot of people on clubrsx have had it for a while plus hondata and haven't had any problems. So you only had 400 miles when you bought hondata?

Don't forget this is quite an isolated event, needless to say that the clubrsx guys are running the A2 head which affords them the extra revs much more than the A3 head, especially when it comes to the valve springs. I would not be that concerned about this though, I reved the shit out of my A3 head and never had a problem with the 7800rpm redline. (Which SIRman has now) This is isolated and has nothing to do with hondata. Again Isolated but unfortunate. He has a second chance free of charge, nuff said.

[ep_nezay]

Originally posted by trk
sounds right



But do you race it... And I mean for 15-30 minute track heats where you are revving it up to about 7-7500k for almost every turn.

I personally dont think the hondata tune is up to that kind of abuse. Its a street based product, I mean really how many pro track/touring racers use it? Probably none.



Sorry to hear what happened, but just to let you know, my EP has been running great after track events and drag strip events with Hondata. So, seems to me that it can handle the abuse, on top of that, my car is turbo'ed.

[anjapower]

I am extremely interested to find out what battery of tests Hondata ran to determine 7700RPM as a safe rev limit...

[siver-SI]

Originally posted by anjapower
I am extremely interested to find out what battery of tests Hondata ran to determine 7700RPM as a safe rev limit...

That is a good question that I never thought of. I just e-mailed them to see what they have to say.

[NemesisITR]

Originally posted by anjapower
NemesisITR, I just have cai, comptech race header, exhaust and hondata reflash + gasket.

Tai, how many miles on your car?

This is the 4th person I'm hearing about blowing their motor (NemesisITR, oogy-boogy, trk, and one other person). Scary thing is, all of them had Hondata:o

This is def. gonna make me think twice next time I'm going into the red w/ my car.

Race header...Sweet!! Mine did blow, I did have Hondata, but my head was screwed up even before I had Hondata. Misshifted on the road course three times in the same day. Result: weakened head. Hondata just aided in the destruction of my head cause it aloud me to rev higher. If I hadnt misshifted I really dont think my head would have blown. I think everyone who has had an engine blown, even with Hondata, was because of driver ERROR not because of ecu changes. Im still debating on which company im going to go with for my ecu upgrade on the A2. I have more options now so thats why I havent done anything yet.

[myeverlovinsir]

Originally posted by anjapower
I am extremely interested to find out what battery of tests Hondata ran to determine 7700RPM as a safe rev limit...

oh, ye of little faith. The battery is a few thou in dyno runs, but I will let Hondata respond. You guys are just so looking for any angle to chase a doubt and have no idea what has been done for your benifit nor what amount of tuning has been performed for your luxury. Damn all you doubters and to hell with anyone who spends the money for a great tune and chastises those who benefit you. Damn all you haters. If you think your better than Hondata then get the K-pro and tune it yourself. Stop your bitching!:p

[siver-SI]

Originally posted by myeverlovinsir
oh, ye of little faith. The battery is a few thou in dyno runs, but I will let Hondata respond. You guys are just so looking for any angle to chase a doubt and have no idea what has been done for your benifit nor what amount of tuning has been performed for your luxury. Damn all you doubters and to hell with anyone who spends the money for a great tune and chastises those who benefit you. Damn all you haters. If you think your better than Hondata then get the K-pro and tune it yourself. Stop your bitching!:p

For me I want to be educated on it before I spend $600. It took me a year to get a intake because I wanted to make sure I was not going to screw my welf doing it. I am thinking the K-pro kit for if I keep on doing engine mods. I still do not know if I want to turbo my car or I have been thinking maybe a all motor car. If I use the stock head I think I will by the upgade in springs just so I have less of a chance of dropping or bending a valve. Plus I have all the tools in my shop to do it.

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by myeverlovinsir
Don't forget this is quite an isolated event, needless to say that the clubrsx guys are running the A2 head which affords them the extra revs much more than the A3 head, especially when it comes to the valve springs. I would not be that concerned about this though, I reved the shit out of my A3 head and never had a problem with the 7800rpm redline. (Which SIRman has now) This is isolated and has nothing to do with hondata. Again Isolated but unfortunate. He has a second chance free of charge, nuff said. I was referring to the o2 sim, not the hondata flash in reference to clubrsx

[trk]

Originally posted by 02SilverSiHB
I don't think the o2 sim had anything to do with it...I can't remember,but you have a casper o2 sim right? A lot of people on clubrsx have had it for a while plus hondata and haven't had any problems. So you only had 400 miles when you bought hondata?

Caspers sim ...

No, the car had 400 miles on it when I bought it new (BUT for the price I didn't mind) not when I put hondata on it ... that was prolly 10Kish..

Let me clarify one more thing (again)... I am not blaming anyone company or product. I have no one to blame besides myself. I am curious, mad, etc at some of these companies for there blatant disregard for customers and some of the things they say ... but its really not their fault, ITS mine for buying it, using it, and incorrectly abusing it.

[trk]

Originally posted by myeverlovinsir
The O2 sim is not as efficient as the K-pro fix. I haven't had to eliminate that sensor yet, but it would accomplish the same as a simulator if I ignored the signal with my K-pro. I don't doubt by removing the O2 sensor with the K-pro I have that it would accomplish the same as the sim if not less, because the sensor would be disabled. I know the K-pro can get rid of the O2 sensor issue, however I don't think it does one thing to resolve the lean or rich signal provided by the sensor itself. So, although you could eliminate the O2 sensor issue if it becomes that much more difficult to tune properly when it is eliminated from the equation by the K-pro, I don't think it solves the real issue. What needs to be understood is that if you simulate or remove the signal that causes the ECU to ignore or provide a simulated A/F ratio, you are still lacking what is intended. With the K-pro you can still dyno tune the tables to react sufficiently to lean or rich situations. With the O2 simulator you are left in the dark and not in control. just my .02 cents.

I read that like this:
o2 sim + hondata = bad

Tai

;)

[BarracksSi]

Originally posted by trk
I read that like this:
o2 sim + hondata = bad

Tai

;)

That was my first thought, too. I vote for somehow keeping the stock O2 sensor and upgrading the valve springs (at least).

Anyway...

Hondata says that they tune the reflash to benefit an i/h/e setup. Say that the stock muffler actually doesn't rob power (which people have found -- it's quiet, but great performance-wise), a midpipe might or might not work, but an intake & header make definite changes, although the combination probably loses low-end torque.

So, Hondata bumped up the torque curve on the low end to compensate, and hopefully regain the lost torque.

With stock "breathing tubes" (intake & header), the torque bump is especially evident, at least via Hondata's own info:
again, red = stock w/ reflash;
blue = all stock;
purple = i/h, stock ECU;
green = i/h/reflash

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wMzc4MTk1NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

Six hundred smackeroos? You decide.

[trk]

Originally posted by BarracksSi
That was my first thought, too. I vote for somehow keeping the stock O2 sensor and upgrading the valve springs (at least).

Anyway...

Hondata says that they tune the reflash to benefit an i/h/e setup. Say that the stock muffler actually doesn't rob power (which people have found -- it's quiet, but great performance-wise), a midpipe might or might not work, but an intake & header make definite changes, although the combination probably loses low-end torque.

So, Hondata bumped up the torque curve on the low end to compensate, and hopefully regain the lost torque.

With stock "breathing tubes" (intake & header), the torque bump is especially evident, at least via Hondata's own info:
again, red = stock w/ reflash;
blue = all stock;
purple = i/h, stock ECU;
green = i/h/reflash

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wMzc4MTk1NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

Six hundred smackeroos? You decide.

Yeah, there own dyno's are depressing. I did the same thing in photoshop. ;)

[oogy-boogy]

Just to add to the discussion...

I did in fact blow my motor (actually, a friend did). But, I believe there were some circumstances that lead up to it. One of them being my whole MM incident. I'm sure that the amount of stress caused plenty of internal damage or at least the start of future problems. The car did not idle the same afterwards and it was only a matter of time before the inevitable happened. Funny thing is that the car was stronger than ever the weeks before the motor went "boom". :(

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by myeverlovinsir
The O2 sim is not as efficient as the K-pro fix. I haven't had to eliminate that sensor yet, but it would accomplish the same as a simulator if I ignored the signal with my K-pro. I don't doubt by removing the O2 sensor with the K-pro I have that it would accomplish the same as the sim if not less, because the sensor would be disabled. I know the K-pro can get rid of the O2 sensor issue, however I don't think it does one thing to resolve the lean or rich signal provided by the sensor itself. So, although you could eliminate the O2 sensor issue if it becomes that much more difficult to tune properly when it is eliminated from the equation by the K-pro, I don't think it solves the real issue. What needs to be understood is that if you simulate or remove the signal that causes the ECU to ignore or provide a simulated A/F ratio, you are still lacking what is intended. With the K-pro you can still dyno tune the tables to react sufficiently to lean or rich situations. With the O2 simulator you are left in the dark and not in control. just my .02 cents. I'm sooooo confused as to what you are talking about. The o2 sim. simulates the 2nd o2 sensor....not the 1st one. My a/f meter still gets the actual a/f reading that it needs from the 1st sensor. The ecu acts the same as it did before the o2 sim....because the ecu isn't getting the reading from the 2nd o2 sim/sensor for the a/f ratio...even hondata themselves said that having a cel from the 2nd o2 sensor doesn't affect anything, the ecu just ignores the signal, they didn't see any change in the a/f settings, so it didn't hamper performance....so having an o2 sim is just to get the annoying light to go away.


The ecu is getting the actual reading that it needs, I know because when I smash the gas, the injectors open up more from the jr power card and the a/f ratio reads rich..because it's getting the reading from the 1st o2 sensor...not the 2nd one.

I even tried putting the o2 sim on the 1st o2 sensor, if you do, you get faulty readings and throw a cel.....


sooooooooooooooooo the sim does not affect the car in a bad way. It does it's job.

[rs_1101]

i dont think id straightpipe an ep without stand alone EMU. o2 sims work, but its too sketchy. id say it sounds like a blown headgasket as well.

DONT STRAIGHTPIPE YOUR EP unless your willing to deal with the consequences. you probably did lean it out too much and boom goes your headgasket.

[trk]

Originally posted by rs_1101
i dont think id straightpipe an ep without stand alone EMU. o2 sims work, but its too sketchy. id say it sounds like a blown headgasket as well.

DONT STRAIGHTPIPE YOUR EP unless your willing to deal with the consequences. you probably did lean it out too much and boom goes your headgasket.

I broke the valve retainer in two pieces, bent the valve and stuffed it up there with a piston. :(

[BarracksSi]

Originally posted by BarracksSi
or plug wires? (long shot, I know)

I was right!




It WAS a long shot!

Really long, too! ;)

[myeverlovinsir]

Originally posted by 02SilverSiHB
I'm sooooo confused as to what you are talking about. The o2 sim. simulates the 2nd o2 sensor....not the 1st one. My a/f meter still gets the actual a/f reading that it needs from the 1st sensor. The ecu acts the same as it did before the o2 sim....because the ecu isn't getting the reading from the 2nd o2 sim/sensor for the a/f ratio...even hondata themselves said that having a cel from the 2nd o2 sensor doesn't affect anything, the ecu just ignores the signal, they didn't see any change in the a/f settings, so it didn't hamper performance....so having an o2 sim is just to get the annoying light to go away.


The ecu is getting the actual reading that it needs, I know because when I smash the gas, the injectors open up more from the jr power card and the a/f ratio reads rich..because it's getting the reading from the 1st o2 sensor...not the 2nd one.

I even tried putting the o2 sim on the 1st o2 sensor, if you do, you get faulty readings and throw a cel.....


sooooooooooooooooo the sim does not affect the car in a bad way. It does it's job.

Yeah your right, don't know what I was thinking, the first one provides the reading, soooo I don't think it matters at all if you run without the second or have a cel. Sensor or sim is not the issue anyways. I have yet to get an O2 cel but if it happens and if it becomes anoying with the DC race header then the quick fix for me is to just turn the dang thing off.

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by myeverlovinsir
Yeah your right, don't know what I was thinking, the first one provides the reading, soooo I don't think it matters at all if you run without the second or have a cel. Sensor or sim is not the issue anyways. I have yet to get an O2 cel but if it happens and if it becomes anoying with the DC race header then the quick fix for me is to just turn the dang thing off. yeah, I like the advantage of kpro...little things like that make it so worth the money :D

[trk]

Originally posted by BarracksSi
I was right!




It WAS a long shot!

Really long, too! ;)

Wtf are you talking about?

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by rs_1101
i dont think id straightpipe an ep without stand alone EMU. o2 sims work, but its too sketchy. id say it sounds like a blown headgasket as well.

DONT STRAIGHTPIPE YOUR EP unless your willing to deal with the consequences. you probably did lean it out too much and boom goes your headgasket. :rolleyes: come on! you won't lean out because of a striaght pipe :confused: what's with this idealogy of the striaght pipe making you run lean? It's like the boogy monster myth..hahahaha

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by trk
Wtf are you talking about? I think he's being sarcastic

[BarracksSi]

Originally posted by trk
Wtf are you talking about?

Some ways back, on page 2, 02SilverSiHB had said, "Have you tried replacing the plugs yet?"

To which I replied (and quoted myself today), "Or maybe the plug wires (long shot, I know)."

Anyway, that's it.

[2fastcivic]

Originally posted by DavidT
DUDE who gives a shit if it alters cam timing or not, have you seen third party dynos of Hondata EPs vs stock EPs w/o Hondata? Hondata EPs make more power and farther into the powerband vs. non Hondata EPs. If you're too cheap to afford it, then don't say anything about it.

why so defensive??? dont take it personally man.

[rs_1101]

i just dont think that o2 sims and straighpipes are something that should be treated like a bolt on mod. which is the impression im getting from some of the posters who are complaining about them.

however i do believe hondata did a great job with their reflash, so im not flaming that, but its a reflash designed to work with stock ep settings (last time i checked.. i havent been in the ep thing for a few months now tho)

[trk]

Originally posted by rs_1101
i just dont think that o2 sims and straighpipes are something that should be treated like a bolt on mod. which is the impression im getting from some of the posters who are complaining about them.

however i do believe hondata did a great job with their reflash, so im not flaming that, but its a reflash designed to work with stock ep settings (last time i checked.. i havent been in the ep thing for a few months now tho)

I agree, I think thats exactly it. Nice and simple observations.

Too bad the market buying there flash isn't keeping the car stock.

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by rs_1101
i just dont think that o2 sims and straighpipes are something that should be treated like a bolt on mod. which is the impression im getting from some of the posters who are complaining about them.

however i do believe hondata did a great job with their reflash, so im not flaming that, but its a reflash designed to work with stock ep settings (last time i checked.. i havent been in the ep thing for a few months now tho)
who is having problems? I know someone else on here had a problem...but they had some custom one they made that shorted some crap in the car...

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by BarracksSi
Some ways back, on page 2, 02SilverSiHB had said, "Have you tried replacing the plugs yet?"

To which I replied (and quoted myself today), "Or maybe the plug wires (long shot, I know)."

Anyway, that's it.
but like we said...there are no plug wires...they are coils...not like the spark plug wires you see on earlier civics...these are coils

[BarracksSi]

Originally posted by 02SilverSiHB
but like we said...there are no plug wires...they are coils...not like the spark plug wires you see on earlier civics...these are coils

Which is exactly why my suggestion was a really, really, really long shot.

[siver-SI]

Originally posted by siver-SI
That is a good question that I never thought of. I just e-mailed them to see what they have to say.

Got a e-mail back form Hondata today. This is what they e-mailed back to me.

Can you provide us with a phone number so that the person who has done all the R&D for the SI can call you. Or if you would like, you can call us and ask to speak with the R&D dept.


Hondata Inc.
386 Beech Ave
Unit B-2
Torrance, CA 90501
310.782.8278
310.782.6383 FAX
http://www.hondata.com

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by BarracksSi
Which is exactly why my suggestion was a really, really, really long shot. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh :D now I read ya

[BarracksSi]

Originally posted by 02SilverSiHB
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh :D now I read ya

Hehe -- knew you would :D

[SIxtasy]

Hey Trk,

I don't know if this matters, but I'll say it anyway. My buddy designed that o2 Sim for the K20a2 for Caspers. It took him about 6 months, and 30+ prototypes. Anyway, Caspers started selling it for the RSX shortly after it was done. They then discovered that if the ECU figured out that the o2 sensor in the cat was bad or acting funny, it could somehow distroy the main o2 sensor. Thus causing the car to run like shit. The owner of CLUBRSX knows well of this problem, since he was one of the first to have it. A shit load of Type S's were running the Jackson Race header for m onths before the sime was released. So many of them had to buy $300+ sensors. Anyway, CASPERS NEVER TESTED THE SIM ON A K20A3.....EVER. They just assume that it works on all K-series, which in theory it should. I know that this might not matter now , I just thought I let you all know what I do about that Sim. Laterz

- Jeffrey

[trk]

Originally posted by SIxtasy
Hey Trk,

I don't know if this matters, but I'll say it anyway. My buddy designed that o2 Sim for the K20a2 for Caspers. It took him about 6 months, and 30+ prototypes. Anyway, Caspers started selling it for the RSX shortly after it was done. They then discovered that if the ECU figured out that the o2 sensor in the cat was bad or acting funny, it could somehow distroy the main o2 sensor. Thus causing the car to run like shit. The owner of CLUBRSX knows well of this problem, since he was one of the first to have it. A shit load of Type S's were running the Jackson Race header for m onths before the sime was released. So many of them had to buy $300+ sensors. Anyway, CASPERS NEVER TESTED THE SIM ON A K20A3.....EVER. They just assume that it works on all K-series, which in theory it should. I know that this might not matter now , I just thought I let you all know what I do about that Sim. Laterz

- Jeffrey

Great, Guess where I bought that sim... From Chris at clubrsx. Shitty.

Tai

[ADAMnQuickCIVIC]

Originally posted by SIxtasy
Hey Trk,

I don't know if this matters, but I'll say it anyway. My buddy designed that o2 Sim for the K20a2 for Caspers. It took him about 6 months, and 30+ prototypes. Anyway, Caspers started selling it for the RSX shortly after it was done. They then discovered that if the ECU figured out that the o2 sensor in the cat was bad or acting funny, it could somehow distroy the main o2 sensor. Thus causing the car to run like shit. The owner of CLUBRSX knows well of this problem, since he was one of the first to have it. A shit load of Type S's were running the Jackson Race header for m onths before the sime was released. So many of them had to buy $300+ sensors. Anyway, CASPERS NEVER TESTED THE SIM ON A K20A3.....EVER. They just assume that it works on all K-series, which in theory it should. I know that this might not matter now , I just thought I let you all know what I do about that Sim. Laterz

- Jeffrey

What is the point of this post, i don't understand?
It seems like you're implying that Casper's O2 sim was the reason for those people to have to replace their "$300+ sensors", but from what I understand the reason is because they WEREN'T using the Casper's O2 sim and the ECU was reading an out of range signal from the rear O2, thus causing the primary O2 to take a shit.

[BlasTech]

SiverSI, the user named "Hondata" is actually Doug from Hondata. You can send him a PM. He has an RSX, and is involved in all the K-series programs.

To make this thread more productive, does anyone have recommendations on how we can go about getting valve adjustments for preventative maintenance.

[SIxtasy]

Originally posted by ADAMnQuickCIVIC
What is the point of this post, i don't understand?
It seems like you're implying that Casper's O2 sim was the reason for those people to have to replace their "$300+ sensors", but from what I understand the reason is because they WEREN'T using the Casper's O2 sim and the ECU was reading an out of range signal from the rear O2, thus causing the primary O2 to take a shit.

The people that were running around for months with CEL's, thought it was just the rear o2 sensor. The lack of having the sim somehow fucked up the main sensor. They did not know that until the sim became available. Then somepeople that ran the test pipe with the o2 sim had the same problems. The owner of Club Rsx had this exact problem. I just remember my buddy telling me that Caspers was having issues with the sim because they had cars that ran like shit with it on. I was just throwing it out as another possibility. I need to stop posting right befor and after I sleep.....

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by SIxtasy
The people that were running around for months with CEL's, thought it was just the rear o2 sensor. The lack of having the sim somehow fucked up the main sensor. They did not know that until the sim became available. Then somepeople that ran the test pipe with the o2 sim had the same problems. The owner of Club Rsx had this exact problem. I just remember my buddy telling me that Caspers was having issues with the sim because they had cars that ran like shit with it on. I was just throwing it out as another possibility. I need to stop posting right befor and after I sleep..... okay, shit, so you're saying that running my test pipe with the o2 sim from casper's is going to eventually make my primary sensor run like shit? If so, I'm putting my cat back on and saying fuck it.

[andy]

Originally posted by 02SilverSiHB
okay, shit, so you're saying that running my test pipe with the o2 sim from casper's is going to eventually make my primary sensor run like shit? If so, I'm putting my cat back on and saying fuck it.

If you're a/f doesn't waver much, with the 02 sim on, I can't see how the primary 02 sensor would just take a dump.
fwiw, I've had the 02 sensor and test pipe combo for almost 4K miles now and no problems. I think fsugatorbait is at around the same mileage with that combo.

btw, congrats on the kiddo. I just saw that post yesterday. ;) http://www.ephatch.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[trk]

Originally posted by andy
If you're a/f doesn't waver much, with the 02 sim on, I can't see how the primary 02 sensor would just take a dump.
fwiw, I've had the 02 sensor and test pipe combo for almost 4K miles now and no problems. I think fsugatorbait is at around the same mileage with that combo.

btw, congrats on the kiddo. I just saw that post yesterday. ;) http://www.ephatch.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

Do you race your car?

[SIxtasy]

SOME of the Casper equipped cars, NOT ALL have that problem. Like I said, I was just telling you guys what I know, since I figured most of you did not know about this. These things have been talked about on ClubRSX many a time.

[andy]

Originally posted by trk
Do you race your car?

No, we already covered this. I have hit the occasional drag strip and
one autocross, however.

I was just responding to 02Silver's comments about how his a/f gauge
(or whatever logging he has setup with his JRSC) stayed in "safe" ranges
when he put the 02 sim on the correct sensor.

FWIW, Ty's Si just had his primary 02 sensor take a dump on him and
he has the stock cat, but just added the shorty DC header. So go
figure.

[trk]

Originally posted by andy
No, we already covered this. I have hit the occasional drag strip and
one autocross, however.

I was just responding to 02Silver's comments about how his a/f gauge
(or whatever logging he has setup with his JRSC) stayed in "safe" ranges
when he put the 02 sim on the correct sensor.

FWIW, Ty's Si just had his primary 02 sensor take a dump on him and
he has the stock cat, but just added the shorty DC header. So go
figure.

Sorry, threads getting long. ;)

[02SilverSiHB]

Originally posted by andy
If you're a/f doesn't waver much, with the 02 sim on, I can't see how the primary 02 sensor would just take a dump.
fwiw, I've had the 02 sensor and test pipe combo for almost 4K miles now and no problems. I think fsugatorbait is at around the same mileage with that combo.

btw, congrats on the kiddo. I just saw that post yesterday. ;) http://www.ephatch.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif okay, that's cool then, a relief for me :D and thanks about the props on my kid :D