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View Full Version : new civic handling vs. older civic handling?



trabadoo22
06-20-2004, 07:16 PM
I have to first start this thread off by saying that I love my ep, everything, but the handling. I know alot of people may disagree with me on this possibly because most of us own ep's, or simply because you really think the ep's suspension is great. Either way I would like to get as much of an unbiased opinion on this as possible.

My reason for this thread is that as it stands now I am unhappy with the ep's handling and because of this I am considering selling the car. I have done a few mods to the suspension which includes, Mugen sport suspension and Progress front and rear swaybars. Each of these mods has improved the handling, but I still feel like something is out of whack. My guess is the front Macpherson strut setup. Throughout the time of owning this car I have felt uncomfortable at higher speeds, like the car is jittery and unable to take deviations in the road very well. Around corners it feels ok, a bit too much body roll, but still feels pretty good. Comparing the ep to an older '97 civic I used to own the '97 civic just felt more solid to me. If I did sell the car I would most likely get a 99-2000 civic or an older integra gs-r. So basically I would like your opinions of which car has greater handling capabilities, especially if you have driven all these cars. Thanks, and I hope I didn't offend anyone with this thread.

Dunrick
06-20-2004, 07:21 PM
weird, to each their own. This car feels crazy stable at high speeds to me - I have ftb/xbrace/springs/rsb 22mm progress - on stock suspension.....

I was thinking the mugen suspension would make a huge diff.... :rolleyes:

BarracksSi
06-20-2004, 09:07 PM
weird, to each their own. This car feels crazy stable at high speeds to me - I have ftb/xbrace/springs/rsb 22mm progress - on stock suspension.....

I was thinking the mugen suspension would make a huge diff.... :rolleyes:

All I've got is 16x7 wheels on 205/50's, Mugen SS and an RSX-S rear sway, and it is certainly stable. Feels like a new car, but certainly a LOT cheaper and less hassle. There's a freeway onramp near my place that's posted for 20 mph, but is pretty fun at the top of 2nd gear. ;)

The EP's structure is very sound. Feel free to change the parts that you see fit.

chubbychu
06-20-2004, 09:19 PM
you must be stinkin hardcore man...even after just springs i love taking my cars around corners and highspeeds.

phlegyas
06-20-2004, 09:32 PM
im still not sure if i like the EPs handing vs my old 94 civics handling, but i do think that my 94 integra handles better. once i get the EP lowered and add a sway bar that might change, but stock for stock i think the integra is better.

raiyo
06-20-2004, 09:40 PM
If you want your car to feel more stable on high speed, then you should invest in getting a d3Design Double X-Brace. No BS, and I ain't getting money for this. Before, driving without the double x-brace, the car felt shakey and the steering wheel just shakes (very little) and moves way to easily. I thought of removing the power steering. But then.... I purchased and installed the double x-brace and all that I said above is gone. Cruising at high speeds feels like I'm going 40 instead of 80. Car feels so much more soild now. My friend drives my car now and then. I get lazy, heheh. After the brace was installed, he was like, wtf.....the car feels different, more stable, wtf did you do. I didn't even tell him I did that mod. So.......just think about it.

trabadoo22
06-20-2004, 10:25 PM
Dunrick - The Mugen suspension does make a difference in handling, but it is designed for the street so it's not a huge upgrade.

Plainol2k2si - It's not really the cornering that is the problem, it's more when I am driving on a straight road where there is deviations in the road. This makes going into a corner fast not as fun. Once I am in the corner it's fine.

Raiyo, If I choose to keep the ep the D3 Designs x-brace is probably going to be my next mod along with some front and rear strut bars. I would also like to get a full suspension bushing kit if there are any for the ep.

Phlegyas- Thanks for the imput. I'm going to try to find an integra to test drive. Hopefully I can check out some older civics to compare since it's been a while from when I drove one.

!@#$%
06-20-2004, 10:42 PM
As much as i hate to say it, i see exactly where you are coming from.

The double wishbone just gives the older civics that go-kart like feel to them. The macpherson is sloppy stock, but has plenty of potential when modified.

BlasTech
06-21-2004, 07:10 AM
definitely, double wishbone is going to be better on the bleedin threshold, but I think you might need some front camber bolts and alignment work to remedy what ails you.

What are your specs?

Burgh
06-21-2004, 08:12 AM
A lot of my issues with the EP's handling don't necessarily come from the suspension design but the weight. Handling is affected a LOT by the weight of the car and it's just not fair to compare an early 90s civic that weighs less than 2200lbs to our pig that weighs a quarter of a ton more than that. More weight = a lot more for the suspension and tires to deal with. I think that a BIG issue with the EP is the skinny ass tires they put on such a heavy car. It's been proven more than once that the EP loves a wider tire with more contact patch. The stock suspension is pretty well balanced but isn't anywhere near optimized for handling.

Tenacious G
06-21-2004, 09:43 AM
A lot of my issues with the EP's handling don't necessarily come from the suspension design but the weight. Handling is affected a LOT by the weight of the car and it's just not fair to compare an early 90s civic that weighs less than 2200lbs to our pig that weighs a quarter of a ton more than that. More weight = a lot more for the suspension and tires to deal with. I think that a BIG issue with the EP is the skinny ass tires they put on such a heavy car. It's been proven more than once that the EP loves a wider tire with more contact patch. The stock suspension is pretty well balanced but isn't anywhere near optimized for handling.

took the words right out of my mouth. in stock form, the EP definintely is geared more towards comfort and everyday drivability. but now that I'm lowered with some fatter/sticker shoes, the EP feels like a totally different car. the rear rotates around much easier, almost to the point of oversteer (could be the -2.0* of camber :angel: ).

but going back to the stability at high speeds, the EP suits my needs just fine. there are some twisties near where i work, and taking those home one day, i always felt in control. this was back when i was stock, but i never felt unstable or unsafe. don't get me wrong, the EP is a porker and it's obvious there's a lot of weight to carry around, i think it does so well. i guess different strokes for different folks.

Dunrick
06-21-2004, 09:55 AM
it is obviously preference though - I know my eyes weren't seeing things when the SPoon ep3 owned up the ek9 spoon car.....

BarracksSi
06-21-2004, 03:48 PM
definitely, double wishbone is going to be better on the bleedin threshold,

Porsche seems to do okay with their strut setup (well, apart from the multilink rear, of course) --

http://content2.us.porsche.com/prod/911/carrera_models.nsf/usaenglish/chassisaxles

Dunrick
06-21-2004, 04:18 PM
Porsche seems to do okay with their strut setup (well, apart from the multilink rear, of course) --

http://content2.us.porsche.com/prod/911/carrera_models.nsf/usaenglish/chassisaxles

good point, I believe also M3 and EVo is mcpherson - I believe tons of performance cars are....

the giant ep3
06-21-2004, 05:23 PM
yeah most of the rally cars out there use macpherson strut front suspension and some all the way around, but neither here nor there I love the way my ep handles, i do have the 04 model with a little bit more reinforced frame, but riding stock it is great out on the open road and i was just romping it on corners last night on and off the freeway, i personally have been pleased. i am going to be adding progress springs, rear sway, wider tires and probably the x-brace. i love driving hard, but i don't know that i will ever go as far as full suspension due to the expertise needed to tune it for different conditions and keep it tuned for everyday driving, but that is just me. one of these days i will have a race only car and then it will be different.

02SilverSiHB
06-21-2004, 05:46 PM
I have to first start this thread off by saying that I love my ep, everything, but the handling. I know alot of people may disagree with me on this possibly because most of us own ep's, or simply because you really think the ep's suspension is great. Either way I would like to get as much of an unbiased opinion on this as possible.

My reason for this thread is that as it stands now I am unhappy with the ep's handling and because of this I am considering selling the car. I have done a few mods to the suspension which includes, Mugen sport suspension and Progress front and rear swaybars. Each of these mods has improved the handling, but I still feel like something is out of whack. My guess is the front Macpherson strut setup. Throughout the time of owning this car I have felt uncomfortable at higher speeds, like the car is jittery and unable to take deviations in the road very well. Around corners it feels ok, a bit too much body roll, but still feels pretty good. Comparing the ep to an older '97 civic I used to own the '97 civic just felt more solid to me. If I did sell the car I would most likely get a 99-2000 civic or an older integra gs-r. So basically I would like your opinions of which car has greater handling capabilities, especially if you have driven all these cars. Thanks, and I hope I didn't offend anyone with this thread.
I also owned a 97 civic with about the same mods as my ep suspension wise, and shit, motor wise also.

The EP is better over all in handling...but in some ways, I know what you are saying, I feel that way also.

When taking corners or if there is abrasions in the road during a corner, it seems to hop around or get jittery as you said.

It's something I get, and definitely do not remeber it happening in my last civic coupe... 1997 EX with a jrsc.

Although, this ep is definitely more solid and doesn't bend or flex like my last car.

Also, I find it weird, I though Honda had made this new suspension to prevent disruption in handling when hitting some small bumps and such..I remember this because they had some quick time vid when the ep first came out going on and on about how much better it is than the wishbone...

Either way, it's not a big enough deal for me to get a different car.

02SilverSiHB
06-21-2004, 05:49 PM
If you want your car to feel more stable on high speed, then you should invest in getting a d3Design Double X-Brace. No BS, and I ain't getting money for this. Before, driving without the double x-brace, the car felt shakey and the steering wheel just shakes (very little) and moves way to easily. I thought of removing the power steering. But then.... I purchased and installed the double x-brace and all that I said above is gone. Cruising at high speeds feels like I'm going 40 instead of 80. Car feels so much more soild now. My friend drives my car now and then. I get lazy, heheh. After the brace was installed, he was like, wtf.....the car feels different, more stable, wtf did you do. I didn't even tell him I did that mod. So.......just think about it.
sounds nice, does this xbrace hand too low to the ground though? I can't remember if you mentioned this already...by the way, how can you remove the power steering and why? we don't have power steering like with the belt...it's electric.

Also, as blastech mentioned, it helps a lot to get some negative camber in the front, I may go back to this, or close to what I had before.

I had -2 degree in the front and it handled great...now with -1, it's okay. I went away from -2 to prevent any possible tire wear with the jrsc putting out more power...

graham
06-21-2004, 06:15 PM
The best handling car I've owned was a 95 GSR lowered on H&R OE springs, KYB AGX shocks and an ITR swaybar. The best handling car that I've driven is the S2000 ... after driving that masterpiece, nothing comes close ... well maybe an ITR ... talk about a refined suspension. Out of the box, I like the 97+ prelude ... a little hefty, but it feels incredibly solid ... great sound from that engine around 5300 rpm :) I also had a 93 civic coupe Si (EX model in the US) lowered on Neuspeed sport springs and stock shocks ... it handled great, but I'll never lower on stock shocks again (harsh!).

I've realized that turning the EP into a track monster won't happen for me ... there are just way too many other better (and cheaper) platforms to start from. I like my EP as a daily driver ... and that's what it will remain as until I get the cash (and a garage) to go to a 2 car system ... then it's time for a real sports car :) ... until then, the EP can still go to the track and be a lot of fun.

trabadoo22
06-21-2004, 06:53 PM
What are your specs?

I'm not sure of hand what the exact specs are, but they are within factory spec.


It's been proven more than once that the EP loves a wider tire with more contact patch. The stock suspension is pretty well balanced but isn't anywhere near optimized for handling.

Right now I have 205/50/16 tires. I would eventually like to get 215's or 225's with 17" rims if need be. Maybe even some wheel spacers.

I don't discount that a Macpherson suspension can provide great handling, but I'm just not feeling it with the ep for whatever reason. I'm hoping though with the right mods I can get the handling I want out of it. The x-brace seems like it would be a great mod, but I am also concerned of clearance issues. Especially since I have to deal with snow on the ground, I don't want to be snowplowing wherever I go in the winter.

ecsahs3
06-23-2004, 12:21 AM
funny, because i've always thought my girlfriends integra handled much better than my ep. but then it hit me. it just felt more nimble because of the weight difference. don't get me wrong, the integra actually handles better. just not as much as it might seem. it's almost like acceleration in a benz e55 vs. highly modified civic. lets assume they have the same 1/4 times & trap speed. the civic is gonna feel as though it is faster than the e55, when i reality it's not. make sense?

03silverEP
06-23-2004, 10:57 AM
The old civic's do handle better, than the EP. I've got $3000 in the corners now: Neuspeed F-upper/R-upper/F-lower X/R-lower tie&sway, Eibach sportlines, Rota's 215/45/17 Kumhos. And my old delSol w/only Sportlines/Tokico's and a $20ebay strut bar handled better any day!
Some of that difference is weight, some is it is not. The Double Wishbone suspension is a superior design every day of the week. How many purpose built race cars have you seen w/mcpherson.....not many. I'm keeping the car but I do wish it handled like the old civics. And I do think the high speed stability is poor, but we all know the front suspension design is f-ed to begin with (ie-tiebars)

Dunrick
06-23-2004, 01:46 PM
explain how - saying it handles better is too vague.

BarracksSi
06-23-2004, 07:56 PM
explain how - saying it handles better is too vague.

Generally (and still probably vague) --

In the sense that us enthusiasts describe "handling", a car --

- doesn't do anything stupid;
- turns where you tell it to go;
- doesn't get upset by road irregularities;
- neither bounces nor floats down the road;
- doesn't feel like it's going to tip over;
- responds quickly and precisely to steering & throttle input;
- doesn't plow headfirst through corners, but also doesn't get tail-happy;
- other sensations like that.

Get your aunt's 1980 Ford Fairmont (not the version with the cop package), and use that as a benchmark for Bad Handling. Then, get into a Lotus Super Seven (or its modern counterpart, the Caterham Seven) and call that Good Handling.

There are certainly ways to quantify handling (skidpad & slalom come to mind), but there's a lot to it that doesn't quite come across in numbers.

mathman
06-23-2004, 08:21 PM
[QUOTE=02SilverSiHB]
Although, this ep is definitely more solid and doesn't bend or flex like my last car.
QUOTE]

Despite the downsides of the EP3, the platform is extremely rigid. I agree that handling from the factory leaves something to be desired, but the chassis is very stiff compared to earlier models. At least we have that...

Mathman.

03silverEP
06-24-2004, 07:23 AM
- doesn't do anything stupid;
- turns where you tell it to go;
- doesn't get upset by road irregularities;
- neither bounces nor floats down the road;
- doesn't feel like it's going to tip over;
- responds quickly and precisely to steering & throttle input;
- doesn't plow headfirst through corners, but also doesn't get tail-happy;
- other sensations like that.


exactly what he said, old civics were 500 lbs. lighter and have double wishbones, my old car went 10mph faster on on & off ramps than this one which feels like it's going to tip over, and the bumpsteer is horrible