so i blew the EP up lastnight

[Az02Si]

1st to second at 7500,and all the valves bent outta nowhere......54k on the clock,40k on the Hondata.....Car dosent idle and needs to be floored to do anyhting that even resembles running........Gonna pull the motor out and tear it down to see how bad the head is;you can hear parts rattling around in it now..........Guess this is a good excuse to buy a k24,huh....lol

[TrippZ]

shit, tjhat sucks.. is there anyway to replace stock valves because that seems to be a problem? everyone bending their valves

[kenscivic]

gosh darn , damn k20a3 head!!! *looks for k20a2 head* sorry to hear about it man good luck , are you going to just drop a k24 in there or just put the head on the k20a3 block or what are you going to do?

[Az02Si]

shit, tjhat sucks.. is there anyway to replace stock valves because that seems to be a problem? everyone bending their valvesI bet it would cost as much as a k24 to rebuild this damn thing,and im not even going to bother...i have to tear it down to see if/how bad the valve to piston contact is....Ill prolly get it rebuilt down the road and use it as a backup.........Its just odd that there was no misshifting involved,just a high RPM that the car had seem 1,000,000,000,000 times before,so this was no different.......as soon as the clutch engaged it just let loose...

[Az02Si]

gosh darn , damn k20a3 head!!! *looks for k20a2 head* sorry to hear about it man good luck , are you going to just drop a k24 in there or just put the head on the k20a3 block or what are you going to do?
Sraight k24 swap and im hoping to get a k pro...Locash at hasport here got 170/160 out of a k24 with intake/k pro in an EG civic...I want those numbers in the EP.....I just sure as hell wont throw another a3 back in this thing...Moral of the story? Im pretty damn sure it was the revs that killed it;be carefull with em guys,and thats more or less directed at the Hondata guys over anyone else,sinve ive had it from before it was released and put 40k of hard miles on it......IMHO the head CANNOT take high RPM for that long....

[kenscivic]

ahh on another note you selling the hondata?

[kenscivic]

the k20a3 head shouldnt even be revved upto 7500 on stock internals the internals can barley handle it if im not mistaken, i bet if you put a type s head on it it would do just fine.

[Az02Si]

ahh on another note you selling the hondata?maybe........well see what happens but ill prolly either keep it and not rev to 7900,lol,or try to sell to someone local...

[k20hatch]

Damn man that sucks...were you hard on the motor alot? I hope ya get everything rebuilt and get that ep back on the road asap!

[Az02Si]

Damn man that sucks...were you hard on the motor alot? I hope ya get everything rebuilt and get that ep back on the road asap!
I did 4 track events(HPDE's) with it,but never really wound it out on the track for saftey reasons.....But the car HAD been beat on pretty well,but no harder than my old 00 Si was........Hopefully itll be running within a couple weeks,i just have to source out a whole k24 minus tranny and im set....Hopefully i can start to pull the motor tommorow after its towed to the moms joint;i cant wait to see what the head looks like.....

[Makross]

damn that blows your the first person i know that blew their motor with hondata...hope everything works out oh yeah check out classifieds p1 auto has a k24 with a type s head for sale at a really decent price...

[VIZHUNZ02SI]

how do valves bend if everything is suppose to be in time order unless the timmin is off.if anything if ur head shell is still good and your valves are bad
replace the valves. i say skunk2 that shiii*
thats gonna be my future major mod with a lil port and polish

[Az02Si]

how do valves bend if everything is suppose to be in time order unless the timmin is off.if anything if ur head shell is still good and your valves are bad
replace the valves. i say skunk2 that shiii*
thats gonna be my future major mod with a lil port and polish
Fuck rebuilding this motor,itll cost more than its worth.Id rather just upgrade while i have the chance and have a project motor on the side to play with over time,or untill i buy an old hatch ;)I still think the timing chain slipped and then all hell broke loose...It was just soooooooooooo sudden when it happened.........

[trk]

damn that blows your the first person i know that blew their motor with hondata...hope everything works out oh yeah check out classifieds p1 auto has a k24 with a type s head for sale at a really decent price...


5th actually.

http://www.ephatch.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37380&page=1&pp=15

[siver-SI]

Just wondering I am not very informed about OHC engines, would just a vavle spring change fix this problem before the bent valve happens? I know on the old v8 I worked on if you adding extra HP you would upgrade the springs. I know you can do it without taking off the head.

[DavidT]

It's not the valves that cause them to bend, it is the valve springs. The valve springs are not designed for high revving applications so when you rev high, especially on an older motor with older valve train the springs don't spring load the valves back fast enough and you get "valve float" which causes the pistons to slap the valves and then you get bent valves. That sux man.

[VIZHUNZ02SI]

maybe so but alot of us rather jus swap the head (1,500 -2,500 bucks)
ecu and immobilizer (a few hundred but) and the flashing fee
i rather jus rebuild the head. im jus curious
if we installed type-s valves and spring and retainers and us ctr cams how would that run

[VIZHUNZ02SI]

so a set of rev or skunk 2 springs should do the job for the high reving guys

[NemesisITR]

I bet it would cost as much as a k24 to rebuild this damn thing,and im not even going to bother...i have to tear it down to see if/how bad the valve to piston contact is....Ill prolly get it rebuilt down the road and use it as a backup.........Its just odd that there was no misshifting involved,just a high RPM that the car had seem 1,000,000,000,000 times before,so this was no different.......as soon as the clutch engaged it just let loose...

Hey that happened to me!! But mine was 3rd to 4th. I broke a valve retainer in half and totally destroyed the motor. Not worth rebuilding!! Check your freeze data to see how high you have spun the motor to. I had 2 readings of 10K and 12.5K, 6 months before I had mishifted a couple of times, but I had a reading of 12.5K on the night I blew the motor yet I didnt misshift. Kind of weird, but the same thing happend...as soon as I put the clutch in my motor made a weird noise and the car died. Tried to start the car a couple of times and then POP!!

I too had Hondata but still not sure if that was the cause. I think it was the fact that I had misshifted 6 months before weakening the head and then adding Hondata just made it worse. I know if you shift right after you hit the rev limiter you can over rev the motor as your putting it into the next gear.

Good luck on the new motor what ever one you get!!!

[Az02Si]

Thanks! I dnt think its really a hondata issue either,just a weak valvetrain issue,lol....The car was over 10hp low on the dyno a week ago,and was ticking pretty loudly........oh well screw this motor,time for bigger and better things... ;)

[NemesisITR]

Thanks! I dnt think its really a hondata issue either,just a weak valvetrain issue,lol....The car was over 10hp low on the dyno a week ago,and was ticking pretty loudly........oh well screw this motor,time for bigger and better things... ;)


LOL!! Everytime I put my car on the dyno with the A3 my numbers kept on getting lower and lower and lower. Couldnt figure out why until Honda called and said the valve train went!!

[rsxmachine]

Totally agree with the comments about the valve springs... those are your weakest link. Those of you running Hondata on the K20A3 should upgrade to the Type-S or S2K valve springs + retainers, this is cheap insurance for handling higher revs. I sold my Type-S valve springs to someone for this very thing.

Don't get Eibach EVS or Toda valve springs, besides being very expensive, they are designed for higher lift cams and will rob you of some power.

[NemesisITR]

Totally agree with the comments about the valve springs... those are your weakest link. Those of you running Hondata on the K20A3 should upgrade to the Type-S or S2K valve springs + retainers, this is cheap insurance for handling higher revs. I sold my Type-S valve springs to someone for this very thing.

Don't get Eibach EVS or Toda valve springs, besides being very expensive, they are designed for higher lift cams and will rob you of some power.

Thats why Im so glad that my A2 came with S2K springs from the factory. Shouldnt worry about any valve train probs now :D

[siver-SI]

Thanks! I dnt think its really a hondata issue either,just a weak valvetrain issue,lol....The car was over 10hp low on the dyno a week ago,and was ticking pretty loudly........oh well screw this motor,time for bigger and better things... ;)


I do not understand why I engine tics like it does. I have heard that it is the injectors normaly, but it does bug me.

[Az02Si]

[QUOTE=siver-SI]I do not understand why I engine tics like it does. I have heard that it is the injectors normaly, but it does bug me.[/QUOTEnope,the injectors DO click,but if its a LOUD click,its the valves,thats a FACT......Thats what mine was doin........

[siver-SI]

It is not loud I do not even hear it inside the car. It is just when when I have the hood open that I hear it and sometimes when I am by the hood. I have had the sound since I bought the car and was told it was normal.

[rsxmachine]

he's right the injectors make a ticking sound (more noticeable with the hood up), but a louder ticking could mean the valve lashing is out of whack, which would also explain the loss of power (hopefully not something worse)

if you get up to 30K-50K miles I would suggest readjusting the valve lashing even though the FSM says not to do it till 100K.

[Az02Si]

It is not loud I do not even hear it inside the car. It is just when when I have the hood open that I hear it and sometimes when I am by the hood. I have had the sound since I bought the car and was told it was normal.
Ok i bet your OK,i could hear mine inside the damn car....and i had a valve adjustment done here at work(Honda) 5k ago......

[BlackSi613nin]

where can you buy s2k valve springs/retainers, and how much would this cost you, only place honda? cuz i know that would cost alot of money.. s2k valve springs would fit in our cars right? im scared now, because im about to go turbo, and i wanna make sure that i havnt weakedn my valve train and then put even more stress on it.....

[rsxmachine]

where can you buy s2k valve springs/retainers, and how much would this cost you, only place honda? cuz i know that would cost alot of money.. s2k valve springs would fit in our cars right? im scared now, because im about to go turbo, and i wanna make sure that i havnt weakedn my valve train and then put even more stress on it.....
you can get them from a Honda dealer or online at Sunnyside Acura
http://www.acuraparts247.com/sunnyside/jsp/home.jsp
the ones that should work are the '03 S2K which are the same as the '03-04 RSX-S -- here are the part numbers
14761-PCX-003 SPRING, IN. VALVE [8] 6.60
14762-PCX-003 SPRING, EX. VALVE [8] 6.60
14765-PRB-A01 RETAINER, VALVE SPRING [16] 2.58
14775-PRB-A00 SEAT, VALVE SPRING [16] 2.33
14781-PRB-A01 COTTER, VALVE [32] 2.07

I posted more extensive info on the varying part numbers here
http://www.k-series.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7904&page=2

[rsxmachine]

BTW I'm guessing you might have to change the valve spring seats too

the valve keepers I'm guessing can be reused, but you might want to buy some anyway cuz they're easy to lose

[BlackSi613nin]

well im at majestic honda.. and for a whole set of honda s2000 valve springs (8intake, 8exhaust) 16 retainers and 16 seats, (if needed) is only 140 bux 120 without seats... so that is a hell of alot better then paying upwards of 5000 dollars on a new engine.... i just wonder how then install on thesse would be....
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=S2000&catcgry2=2003&catcgry3=2DR+S2000&catcgry4=KA6MT&catcgry5=VALVE-ROCKER+ARM

springs are 5.06 each, retainers are 2.45 each, and seats are 1.84.. i wonder if rsx-s parts would be cheaper,, they would ift, k-series. engien.. i wonder if there is a majestic honda for acura...

joHn

[siver-SI]

he's right the injectors make a ticking sound (more noticeable with the hood up), but a louder ticking could mean the valve lashing is out of whack, which would also explain the loss of power (hopefully not something worse)

if you get up to 30K-50K miles I would suggest readjusting the valve lashing even though the FSM says not to do it till 100K.

I am thinking when I am about out of warrenty I am going to say that the sound is getting louder and if they can check the valves under warrenty. It iw worth a shot.

[fASTBACK]

I was the 1st person to reply to this thread and my post got deleted. I would like to know why so would the moderator who performed this action please explain.

Thank you.

[siver-SI]

well im at majestic honda.. and for a whole set of honda s2000 valve springs (8intake, 8exhaust) 16 retainers and 16 seats, (if needed) is only 140 bux 120 without seats... so that is a hell of alot better then paying upwards of 5000 dollars on a new engine.... i just wonder how then install on thesse would be....
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=S2000&catcgry2=2003&catcgry3=2DR+S2000&catcgry4=KA6MT&catcgry5=VALVE-ROCKER+ARM

springs are 5.06 each, retainers are 2.45 each, and seats are 1.84.. i wonder if rsx-s parts would be cheaper,, they would ift, k-series. engien.. i wonder if there is a majestic honda for acura...

joHn

There are a few snap-on tools at work that I have seen that will do the job with no head removal.

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/OBJECTS/36200/36146.JPG
Compressor, Valve Spring, Cam-Operated

Stock# VST100
Description:

Eliminates the need to for cylinder removal. Design eliminates the need to readjust tool to each spring. Works on most overhead valve engines.

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/OBJECTS/33500/33432.JPG
Compressor, Valve Spring

Stock YA3271

Description:

For most cars and trucks with overhead valves. Works with cylinder head on or off the engine. Removable hand wheel provides option to use 5/8" socket or wrench in confined quarters.

This one looks best.

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/OBJECTS/17800/17717.JPG

Compressor, Valve Spring, Universal

Stock YA9140

Description:

Removes/installs the valve spring without removal of the cylinder head from the engine. Domestic and import servicing of single and double overhead cam engines, including Audi, Chrysler, Infiniti, Honda, Hyundai, Lexus, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Porsche, Saturn, Toyota, Volvo, and Volkswagen.

[rsxmachine]

well im at majestic honda.. and for a whole set of honda s2000 valve springs (8intake, 8exhaust) 16 retainers and 16 seats, (if needed) is only 140 bux 120 without seats... so that is a hell of alot better then paying upwards of 5000 dollars on a new engine.... i just wonder how then install on thesse would be....
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=S2000&catcgry2=2003&catcgry3=2DR+S2000&catcgry4=KA6MT&catcgry5=VALVE-ROCKER+ARM

springs are 5.06 each, retainers are 2.45 each, and seats are 1.84.. i wonder if rsx-s parts would be cheaper,, they would ift, k-series. engien.. i wonder if there is a majestic honda for acura...

joHnthose are pretty good... here's the available prices from Sunnyside Acura

14761-PCX-003 SPRING, IN. VALVE [8] $5.61 $44.88
14762-PCX-003 SPRING, EX. VALVE [8] $5.61 $44.88
14765-PRB-A01 RETAINER, VALVE SPRING [16] $2.19 $35.04
14775-PRB-A00 SEAT, VALVE SPRING [16] $1.98 $31.68
14781-PRB-A01 COTTER, VALVE [32] $1.76 $56.32

the install is a little difficult but can be done without removing the head, you need a OHC valve spring tool like this one http://www.mytoolstore.com/kd/kdengi13.html#3271 and also a sparkplug compression adapter to compress each cylinder to ~75 psi as you work on its valves

[BlackSi613nin]

dude, you kick ass!! thanks for your help, and thanks for the heads up on those tools.. i will first check around for prices of install. but so far ive seen for 400 bux.. thats alitle more then i have now, but i deff. want to upgrade valve train before i install turbo and kpro.... good insurance.. thanks again!

joHn

[rsxmachine]

I am thinking when I am about out of warrenty I am going to say that the sound is getting louder and if they can check the valves under warrenty. It iw worth a shot.that's a good idea, I know a guy with an RSX who had it done for free that way (and his valve clearances were out of spec from driving hard)

or you can do like I did and get a set of valve feelers for a few bux and learn how to do it yourself:
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-article?article_id=143824

[rsxmachine]

I could probably write up some cliffs notes on how to change your valve springs if anyone would find it useful for a DIY. what I don't recall is if the rocker arms pivot up and out of the way enough to give enough room to pull the valve springs, without taking apart the whole rocker arm assembly (I did mine while putting in cams, so this wasn't an issue). anyone know the answer to this?

[edit] after looking at some pics, I don't really think this is possible without first removing the rocker arm assembly and camshafts. :(

[BlackSi613nin]

if you could, that would be a major help!!! im gonna do this within the next week or so

thanks
joHn

[civicSIracer]

Hondata claims another victim

[portugeetex]

take some pics of the head when u get it ripped apart

[degasisj]

sorry to hear about your ep man, at least we fit in an ep meet just before she blew up. hopefully you can make it on the drive to sedona at the end of july.

[Az02Si]

sorry to hear about your ep man, at least we fit in an ep meet just before she blew up. hopefully you can make it on the drive to sedona at the end of july.
Oh ill be there,im picking up the k24 this week

[03silverEP]

i know now to never buy hondata, disappointing actually...

[Az02Si]

i know now to never buy hondata, disappointing actually...
Well,then never boost your car either,because they blow up also....that wasnt the greatest statement you made.......I took the chance and it happened,lesson learned.I also drive my car harder than 99.9% of the people on this board,so it was bound to happen.

[graham]

Sorry if you've already stated this ... but were you running any fuel management with the hondata flash? I'm curious if an A/F guage and an adjustable FPR would allow to take care of a lean mixture (not that that was your problem) ... maybe a precaution others can take who are running hondata.

[rsxmachine]

I don't have a way to try it, but I'm almost certain now that to change the valve springs you have to remove the camshaft holders, camshafts and rocker arm assembly. That also means undoing the timing chain and its tensioner. With all that stuff in the way there just doesn't seem to be enough clearance to work on the valve springs.



Sorry if you've already stated this ... but were you running any fuel management with the hondata flash? I'm curious if an A/F guage and an adjustable FPR would allow to take care of a lean mixture (not that that was your problem) ... maybe a precaution others can take who are running hondata.The Hondata flashes run on the rich side (12.0-13.0 A/F) even at high rpm's, and use the ECU's built-in fuel trims and A/F sensor to monitor and deliver the right amount of fuel. Additional fuel management and the FPR are not an issue unless you go FI.

[portugeetex]

hey can somebody start a hondata horror story thread, id like to read everybodys horror stories b4 i think about buying hondata........ thanks in advance if that thread gets started, or if there is already one floatin around and someone can send me the link

[siver-SI]

I don't have a way to try it, but I'm almost certain now that to change the valve springs you have to remove the camshaft holders, camshafts and rocker arm assembly. That also means undoing the timing chain and its tensioner. With all that stuff in the way there just doesn't seem to be enough clearance to work on the valve springs.

That is not that big of a deal is it with are car to take that all off?

[trk]

That is not that big of a deal is it with are car to take that all off?

$500 is what I was quoted.... from a friend.

:'(

[rsxmachine]

That is not that big of a deal is it with are car to take that all off?It's more than most people can DIY. to release the timing chain from the cam gears you either have to remove the tensioner (PITA, let me tell you) or remove the entire timing chain cover (even bigger PITA). Changing the springs is kinda tricky and requires two people. You're looking at several hours of labor even with experienced techs.

[siver-SI]

$500 is what I was quoted.... from a friend.

:'(

Was that the labor cost only?

[rsxmachine]

am I reading right on Hondata's website that on the Base RSX reflash they raise the rev limit to 7300 but on the EP3 they raise it to 7700? why is this??

[siver-SI]

It's more than most people can DIY. to release the timing chain from the cam gears you either have to remove the tensioner (PITA, let me tell you) or remove the entire timing chain cover (even bigger PITA). Changing the springs is kinda tricky and requires two people. You're looking at several hours of labor even with experienced techs.

Well I was not thinking of doing this till my warrenty is up and this looks like a good winter prodject if I have a winter car for the EP to stay in the shop. I have done the belts on the old b block but I have not done a K block yet.

[siver-SI]

am I reading right on Hondata's website that on the Base RSX reflash they raise the rev limit to 7300 but on the EP3 they raise it to 7700? why is this??

Good question.

[BlackSi613nin]

i got a few quotes for having s2k spings/retainers installed. at ONE6 motorsports, they said it would take about 4 hours of labor, at 50 bux an hour. so about 200 bux.. and they are a good honda speed shop.. another place a few doors down from one6, Garage Kwai... quoted me 360 for the labor.. and finally. i called king motorsports, and they want 600 bux for the job... so prices are kinda all over the board on this one.. and parts themselves are gonna cost 120 plus shipping... im gonna take off valve cover just to sneak a peak inside so i can look at what i would be attempting to do myself.. i dont have those tools, that i should buy, and dont have much experience witha spark plug compressor converter (that i have to pump each cylender to ~75 psi to work on) so im gonna make a few more calls, unless there is someone handy like this around the chicago land area that would like to help install this and a turbo :)..
joHn

[trk]

i got a few quotes for having s2k spings/retainers installed. at ONE6 motorsports, they said it would take about 4 hours of labor, at 50 bux an hour. so about 200 bux.. and they are a good honda speed shop.. another place a few doors down from one6, Garage Kwai... quoted me 360 for the labor.. and finally. i called king motorsports, and they want 600 bux for the job... so prices are kinda all over the board on this one.. and parts themselves are gonna cost 120 plus shipping... im gonna take off valve cover just to sneak a peak inside so i can look at what i would be attempting to do myself.. i dont have those tools, that i should buy, and dont have much experience witha spark plug compressor converter (that i have to pump each cylender to ~75 psi to work on) so im gonna make a few more calls, unless there is someone handy like this around the chicago land area that would like to help install this and a turbo :)..
joHn

Yeah I got quoted $500 and $250

[siver-SI]

For $200 I would have them do it. If you know you will not need the tools to do the job again then pay for someone else to do it. For me I am planing on taking a few engines apart in the next few years so I am going to buy the tools.