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DownTheHatch
10-31-2002, 02:15 PM
Does this look worth it? They changed their kits, they're no longer shiney and cross-drilled, they're now flat black and slotted.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1871394668

yomamaInMySi
10-31-2002, 02:25 PM
Get those and then go get a pair of front light weight calipers from Wilwood.

DocofMind
10-31-2002, 03:03 PM
What AEM has done is only in their benefit. Not yours.

This is not a big brake kit. This is a kit that allows you to use a larger rotor. Nothing really doing here, just aesthetics. More importantly, they did away with the thing that was good about the system, the fact that teh rotors were two piece. Being one piece saves them money on manufacturing and produces an inferior product. First of all, its heavier being 1 piece, secondly, its horrible for performance applications. While a rotor goes through therman cycling (the continuous process of being heated and cooled when driving) the hub of the rotor and the disc of the rotor reach different temperatures. The advantage of a 2 piece rotor is that it allows the two to move and flex independantly without creating stress on the rotor. The hat and actual disc reach different temps which is why they move differently. That is why rotors crack, not because they are drilled. That is also why they did away with the drilling, because these are 1 piece, they will be more prone to cracking under extreme conditions.

If you are in the market for upgrading your brakes, i will be doing a step by step detailed install on my own car in a couple of weeks. I am awaiting delivery of my wheels. A 16 inch wheel is needed for the larger diamter rotor.

One of the members here already has the first version of the kit on his car already. I will be installing the latest version which utilizes a FORGED 4 piston caliper and a directionally veined 2 piece rotor :cool:
As an added bonus, this kit will drop about 15- 18 pounds of unsprung weight off our front wheels. So that means it actually makes you go faster too, lol. Seriously

Jpax
10-31-2002, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by DocofMind
What AEM has done is only in their benefit. Not yours.
I will be installing the latest version which utilizes a FORGED 4 piston caliper and a directionally veined 2 piece rotor :cool:
As an added bonus, this kit will drop about 15- 18 pounds of unsprung weight off our front wheels. So that means it actually makes you go faster too, lol. Seriously

I would like to see when your done. im getting 17" and i would like and upgread on my breaking system.

jaydub
11-01-2002, 03:25 PM
I just asked my friend who works at AEM about these this past weekend, and I wasn't under the impression that they had hit the market yet.

DownTheHatch
11-01-2002, 03:44 PM
Doc, your post is a real eye opener, thanks for the information.

I'll stay away from AEM's kit. If I do upgrade it will probably be the Brembo kit, can't go wrong with Brembo.

DocofMind
11-01-2002, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by PaXiE


I would like to see when your done. im getting 17" and i would like and upgread on my breaking system.

I ll do a step by step install of the system so you can see not only how easy it is, but exactly what is invloved.

More coming. Now only if my damn wheels would get here :mad:

DocofMind
11-01-2002, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by DownTheHatch
Doc, your post is a real eye opener, thanks for the information.

I'll stay away from AEM's kit. If I do upgrade it will probably be the Brembo kit, can't go wrong with Brembo.

My pleasure man, anything i can do to help you guys. I have been doing this for quite a long time and made MANY mistakes along the way.


Just for you reference though, just becase it says Brembo, doesnt mean anything. I wont get into any bashing here because i do luv their products, but for the correct application.

Most of the kits available are not designed for japanese cars. The diameter of the pistons in the caliper do not correlate well the bore and stroke of our master cylinders. Which results in poor feel and even worse stopping distances. Take a look at Sport Compact Cars tech article from a couple months back on the Suby they did with the big brake kit. Or take a look at last months article they did on the own Sylvia conversion. Both systems lacked the proper pressure to work properly resulting in the need for a proportioning valve.

In addition, the weight of the systems are almost identical to the factory set most weigh a few pounds more. No help there with unsprung weight.

My set up has been used and proven on the track with my S2000. I am going to use the same components on the EP so i know it will work properly and effectively. And as i wrote above, it drops almost 10 pounds of weight off each front wheel. If you want to get an idea of what this feel s like, go out and put some 18 inch bling bling wheels on the front and see how lame your car feels. Then take them off and you will get only a small taste of what it is really goiong to be.

Next, i m going to be doing something for the rear do even further improve the braking. This should hopefully be done by the end of the year.

chunky
11-03-2002, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by DocofMind
What AEM has done is only in their benefit. Not yours.

This is not a big brake kit. This is a kit that allows you to use a larger rotor. Nothing really doing here, just aesthetics. More importantly, they did away with the thing that was good about the system, the fact that teh rotors were two piece. Being one piece saves them money on manufacturing and produces an inferior product. First of all, its heavier being 1 piece, secondly, its horrible for performance applications. While a rotor goes through therman cycling (the continuous process of being heated and cooled when driving) the hub of the rotor and the disc of the rotor reach different temperatures. The advantage of a 2 piece rotor is that it allows the two to move and flex independantly without creating stress on the rotor. The hat and actual disc reach different temps which is why they move differently. That is why rotors crack, not because they are drilled. That is also why they did away with the drilling, because these are 1 piece, they will be more prone to cracking under extreme conditions.

If you are in the market for upgrading your brakes, i will be doing a step by step detailed install on my own car in a couple of weeks. I am awaiting delivery of my wheels. A 16 inch wheel is needed for the larger diamter rotor.

One of the members here already has the first version of the kit on his car already. I will be installing the latest version which utilizes a FORGED 4 piston caliper and a directionally veined 2 piece rotor :cool:
As an added bonus, this kit will drop about 15- 18 pounds of unsprung weight off our front wheels. So that means it actually makes you go faster too, lol. Seriously

I don't like AEM's big brake kits very much, but I have to disagree with you when you say that larger rotors are for asthetics only.

1) they increase the leverage of the pad on the hub, thereby increasing brake torque.

2) they increase surface area, which leads to lower brake temps

the only time you need a two piece rotor is when the hub & disc of the rotor are made of two different materials. Different materials have different rates of expansion due to heat, when it's all the same material, that's not an issue.

the best rotors are either forged or some flavor of carbon/ceramic composite - but always one piece.

nikkotyper
11-03-2002, 07:20 AM
Update me on that braking kit ... I just went to Laguna Seca and my brakes were fading. After the first session they were cooked (actually you could see the smoke coming out.) I bled the fluid (Motul RBF600) during the lunch just to be sure and that was not it. Sure, the stock pads did not help either.

DocofMind
11-04-2002, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by chunky


I don't like AEM's big brake kits very much, but I have to disagree with you when you say that larger rotors are for asthetics only.

1) they increase the leverage of the pad on the hub, thereby increasing brake torque.

2) they increase surface area, which leads to lower brake temps

the only time you need a two piece rotor is when the hub & disc of the rotor are made of two different materials. Different materials have different rates of expansion due to heat, when it's all the same material, that's not an issue.

the best rotors are either forged or some flavor of carbon/ceramic composite - but always one piece.

Okay, i will give you that the larger diameter rotor does indeed apply more torque. However, the surface area of the brake pad is not changing because it utlizes the factory pad. True that the rotors area is larger, but really that is minimal. In fact, what the kit does do, is push the caliper further up which adds unprung weight to the worse possible place to accomodate the larger rotor.

Now for the issue you bring up regarding 1 and 2 piece rotors. This comment is completely false. Even though the hub and the rotor on a factory set up are made of the same materials, they do not expand and shrink at the same rate. Under load, you will see the disc temps reach anywhere from 700 to 1000 degrees. You will not see the hub exceed 500 degrees. Because of this difference iin temperature, the continual process of thermal cycling will cause minor stress crack s to appear which will eventually lead to a cracked and or warped rotor.

I have seen a few OEM rotors off a s2000 practially disintegrate under track conditions. Small stress cracks that eventually led to hazardous situation.

My main grip about all this, is the price. For $400, there are a lot of other options available that i believe will function better than this. More importantly, Wilwood has their own kit which is a true big brake kit for a few hundred more. Even further, i manufactured my own version of the wilwood kit that uses forged 4 piston and a directionally veined 2 piece rotor that is 12.2 inches in diameter. All for under $800.

yomamaInMySi
11-04-2002, 11:29 AM
True Do, you can get a nice kit for under 800, pair of wilwoods and some nice 11 or 12 rotors.

!@#$%
11-05-2002, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by DocofMind


Okay, i will give you that the larger diameter rotor does indeed apply more torque. However, the surface area of the brake pad is not changing because it utlizes the factory pad. True that the rotors area is larger, but really that is minimal. In fact, what the kit does do, is push the caliper further up which adds unprung weight to the worse possible place to accomodate the larger rotor.

Now for the issue you bring up regarding 1 and 2 piece rotors. This comment is completely false. Even though the hub and the rotor on a factory set up are made of the same materials, they do not expand and shrink at the same rate. Under load, you will see the disc temps reach anywhere from 700 to 1000 degrees. You will not see the hub exceed 500 degrees. Because of this difference iin temperature, the continual process of thermal cycling will cause minor stress crack s to appear which will eventually lead to a cracked and or warped rotor.

I have seen a few OEM rotors off a s2000 practially disintegrate under track conditions. Small stress cracks that eventually led to hazardous situation.

My main grip about all this, is the price. For $400, there are a lot of other options available that i believe will function better than this. More importantly, Wilwood has their own kit which is a true big brake kit for a few hundred more. Even further, i manufactured my own version of the wilwood kit that uses forged 4 piston and a directionally veined 2 piece rotor that is 12.2 inches in diameter. All for under $800.

if everything works out on the EP as it did on ur S2k, think we could set up a group buy? :confused:

DocofMind
11-05-2002, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by !@#$%


if everything works out on the EP as it did on ur S2k, think we could set up a group buy? :confused:

As soon as my wheels get here for the EP, i will do a write up on the install and get you guys some pics as well.

I will be glad to set up a group by for you guys as well. Im off to SEMA today but when i get back i ll try to get the ball rolling.

chunky
11-05-2002, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by DocofMind


Okay, i will give you that the larger diameter rotor does indeed apply more torque. However, the surface area of the brake pad is not changing because it utlizes the factory pad. True that the rotors area is larger, but really that is minimal. In fact, what the kit does do, is push the caliper further up which adds unprung weight to the worse possible place to accomodate the larger rotor.


pad surface area does not change - but mostly it's the rotor that needs cooling - unless you have pads not well suited to the temps in your usage. There is an appreciable change in rotor surface area, which leads to more effective cooling.

I'm not a huge fan of big brake kits, but they do work well for people who are on a budget but need more effective brake cooling.



Now for the issue you bring up regarding 1 and 2 piece rotors. This comment is completely false. Even though the hub and the rotor on a factory set up are made of the same materials, they do not expand and shrink at the same rate. Under load, you will see the disc temps reach anywhere from 700 to 1000 degrees. You will not see the hub exceed 500 degrees. Because of this difference iin temperature, the continual process of thermal cycling will cause minor stress crack s to appear which will eventually lead to a cracked and or warped rotor.


The two piece design ends up creating a "floating" rotor. My main gripe about this design is that it gives up strength - only a handful of bolts hold the actual rotor to the hub.

Stress cracks take time to form, and are not common at all with properly treated rotors (it's either annealing or hot tempering, i forget which) But the way I look at it, rotors are disposable parts. A good team would log the miles on the rotors, and toss them out before there's any chance of cracking leading to catastropic failure.



I have seen a few OEM rotors off a s2000 practially disintegrate under track conditions. Small stress cracks that eventually led to hazardous situation.

OEM parts always have questionable reliabilty under track conditions, ESP brakes. If they were at the point of disintegration, it seems to me that the owner was expecting too much of them - any quality one piece rotor would have held together for at least a year under even the most torturous conditions. That's why brakes are the first real mod I do to any car i've owned.


My main grip about all this, is the price. For $400, there are a lot of other options available that i believe will function better than this. More importantly, Wilwood has their own kit which is a true big brake kit for a few hundred more. Even further, i manufactured my own version of the wilwood kit that uses forged 4 piston and a directionally veined 2 piece rotor that is 12.2 inches in diameter. All for under $800.
I agree, most big brake kits aren't worth the money to me. but some people NEED a braking solution and have a set budget. in this case, they're useful. They're saved the expense of new calipers, but get the benfits of a larger rotor. Down the road, when they can afford it, they can get the more rigid calipers. But sadly, they also give the folks who're all about the show slap on some hugeass rotors that they don't even need.

DocofMind
11-07-2002, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by chunky


pad surface area does not change - but mostly it's the rotor that needs cooling - unless you have pads not well suited to the temps in your usage. There is an appreciable change in rotor surface area, which leads to more effective cooling.

I'm not a huge fan of big brake kits, but they do work well for people who are on a budget but need more effective brake cooling.

[/b]



[/b]
OEM parts always have questionable reliabilty under track conditions, ESP brakes. If they were at the point of disintegration, it seems to me that the owner was expecting too much of them - any quality one piece rotor would have held together for at least a year under even the most torturous conditions. That's why brakes are the first real mod I do to any car i've owned.

I agree, most big brake kits aren't worth the money to me. but some people NEED a braking solution and have a set budget. in this case, they're useful. They're saved the expense of new calipers, but get the benfits of a larger rotor. Down the road, when they can afford it, they can get the more rigid calipers. But sadly, they also give the folks who're all about the show slap on some hugeass rotors that they don't even need. [/B]

The two piece design ends up creating a "floating" rotor. My main gripe about this design is that it gives up strength - only a handful of bolts hold the actual rotor to the hub.

All of my 2 piece rotors incorporate a bolt that is designed to be used with safety wire. There is now way in hell that they are coming undone. As i said, i will take pics of all this so you can see. This is a true race bred upgrade. SUre it looks cool as hell, but that is second to function. In addition, take a look at any true race kit designed by AP, Brembo, or Alcon, or Baer, do you see any one piece rotors? No, as you say, the floating rotor is exactly what you are looking for.

Stress cracks take time to form, and are not common at all with properly treated rotors (it's either annealing or hot tempering, i forget which) But the way I look at it, rotors are disposable parts. A good team would log the miles on the rotors, and toss them out before there's any chance of cracking leading to catastropic failure.
These stress cracks can occur from one session on the track if the rotor is not properly cooled. It can even occur on a canyon run. Again, the process of thermal cycling does not necessarily take time to cause damage.

I totally disagree with you here. I have installed big brakes on 3 of the cars that i have owned and will continue to do so on every car i buy. Not only am i able to improve my braking, but i am able to reduce unsprung weight drastically. Both are not only critical for the track, but actually make the car much more enjoyable to drive. In addition, it also eases maintnance. Besides the fact that components last longer, most pieces are easily replaced and are not expensive. As a matter of fact, the brake pads i use in my kits are made by almost every aftermarket brake manufacturer. The pads are actually les expensive in the exact same compound compared to the OE pad.

chunky
11-07-2002, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by DocofMind

All of my 2 piece rotors incorporate a bolt that is designed to be used with safety wire. There is now way in hell that they are coming undone. As i said, i will take pics of all this so you can see. This is a true race bred upgrade. SUre it looks cool as hell, but that is second to function. In addition, take a look at any true race kit designed by AP, Brembo, or Alcon, or Baer, do you see any one piece rotors? No, as you say, the floating rotor is exactly what you are looking for.

I wouldn't trust a 2 piece rotor on the street. Rough street roads + potholes = those bolts are more likely to come undone/break. It's just nitpicking, i know, but there isn't a single two piece rotor that I know of that was designed with street use in mind - except on motorcycles.


These stress cracks can occur from one session on the track if the rotor is not properly cooled. It can even occur on a canyon run. Again, the process of thermal cycling does not necessarily take time to cause damage.

if the rotors are not propely cooled after a tough run, it's the operator's fault. improper cooling affects 2 piece rotors as well.


I totally disagree with you here. I have installed big brakes on 3 of the cars that i have owned and will continue to do so on every car i buy. Not only am i able to improve my braking, but i am able to reduce unsprung weight drastically. Both are not only critical for the track, but actually make the car much more enjoyable to drive. In addition, it also eases maintnance. Besides the fact that components last longer, most pieces are easily replaced and are not expensive. As a matter of fact, the brake pads i use in my kits are made by almost every aftermarket brake manufacturer. The pads are actually les expensive in the exact same compound compared to the OE pad.
I was never against big brake kits, just that most people that get them don't need them - esp with budget kits like the AEM. The proper way to do brakes is the approach that you seem to be using - pick the best parts, and use them, instead of finding some kit that attempts to guess what exactly it is that you need.

Me personally, i always upgrade pads first, then rotors, staying with stock size. Then I upgrade brake lines. Tires are also a must.

yomamaInMySi
11-07-2002, 11:39 AM
Actually, Porsche makes a two piece design rotor, ceramic too for the road!

chunky
11-07-2002, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by yomamaInMySi
Actually, Porsche makes a two piece design rotor, ceramic too for the road!

you sure about that?

the PCCB rotors have always been one piece to my knowledge. . . .

DocofMind
11-07-2002, 02:16 PM
Chunky, first of all, please in no way take any of what i say to you as anything offensive. I actually appreciate the fact that you are able to voice your opinion logically and are, for the most part, correcty in what you say.

Most drivers, day to day, will not exceed the limits of the factory set up. Most do not really "need" more. Changing the pads and fluid are def the first to do in the chain of events. Those two upgrades WILL push the limit further than stock.

But as i have mentioned before, there are many reasons why the proper kit is better. They not only make the car stop better, but make the car actually perform better too. You talk about mods that people do to their cars and which ones actualy gain noticeable benefit. People will pay up to 1,000 dollars for I,H,E. Those upgrades are capable of getting you close to 20 ponies at the wheels. Now the brakes, besides the fact that you drop 18 pounds of unsprung weight (relative to almost 50 pounds), you will have consistant braking all the way through.

Also, you missed what i was trying to explain to you about the 2 piece design. I m not sure if you are familiar with safety wire, but that is what we use when we bolt the rotors to the hats. It is IMPOSSIBLE for them to come apart.

chunky
11-07-2002, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by DocofMind
Chunky, first of all, please in no way take any of what i say to you as anything offensive. I actually appreciate the fact that you are able to voice your opinion logically and are, for the most part, correcty in what you say.

no offense taken at all. :D


Most drivers, day to day, will not exceed the limits of the factory set up. Most do not really "need" more. Changing the pads and fluid are def the first to do in the chain of events. Those two upgrades WILL push the limit further than stock.

agreed


But as i have mentioned before, there are many reasons why the proper kit is better. They not only make the car stop better, but make the car actually perform better too. You talk about mods that people do to their cars and which ones actualy gain noticeable benefit. People will pay up to 1,000 dollars for I,H,E. Those upgrades are capable of getting you close to 20 ponies at the wheels. Now the brakes, besides the fact that you drop 18 pounds of unsprung weight (relative to almost 50 pounds), you will have consistant braking all the way through.

I don't argue with you there, good brakes are key to a well rounded car. I personally auto-x my car, so I need solid stopping power. I will also admit that from time to time I push the limit on an open highway, so good brakes are critical there again. I have nothing against big brake setups, and agree wholly that they can be beneficial to a car's overall performance if setup properly.


Also, you missed what i was trying to explain to you about the 2 piece design. I m not sure if you are familiar with safety wire, but that is what we use when we bolt the rotors to the hats. It is IMPOSSIBLE for them to come apart.
I didn't miss the part about the safety wire - it is impossible for the bolt to come out of the hole, but say the bolt breaks, or say one of the leaves that connects the hat to the disc breaks - in the end, all the stopping force the brakes apply passes through those bolts - the stress is much more concentrated than on a solid rotor.

Personally, to setup a 2pc rotor, I think they should have a splined hat that the disc slides over. that way you get the floating rotor and a nearly continuous mating surface. just a thought.

DocofMind
11-07-2002, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by chunky
I didn't miss the part about the safety wire - it is impossible for the bolt to come out of the hole, but say the bolt breaks, or say one of the leaves that connects the hat to the disc breaks - in the end, all the stopping force the brakes apply passes through those bolts - the stress is much more concentrated than on a solid rotor.

Personally, to setup a 2pc rotor, I think they should have a splined hat that the disc slides over. that way you get the floating rotor and a nearly continuous mating surface. just a thought. [/B]

Interesting point and an interesting idea for a solution. Seriously though, the chances of what you mention occurring from any type of impact to the front are slim to none. I promise you that something else will give before one these components do. First of all, all the bolts are of aircraft quality steel, they are not going anywhere. The hats are all made out of 6061 aluminum and are further bettered by being hard anodized. Even if hell froze over and one bolt decided to give way, there are 7 others bolts holding the hat to the rotor.

chunky
11-07-2002, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by DocofMind


Interesting point and an interesting idea for a solution. Seriously though, the chances of what you mention occurring from any type of impact to the front are slim to none. I promise you that something else will give before one these components do. First of all, all the bolts are of aircraft quality steel, they are not going anywhere. The hats are all made out of 6061 aluminum and are further bettered by being hard anodized. Even if hell froze over and one bolt decided to give way, there are 7 others bolts holding the hat to the rotor.

It's a very remote possibility that a two piece rotor would fail on a track - but riding over shitty pavement at 80mph can be more punishing on a car's braking/suspension than being on a track. There's no runoff room on the street like there is on a track. but maybe i'm just paranoid :D

Silvershadow
11-10-2002, 03:33 PM
I'd AVOID the AEM big brakes for now.This has been the most interesting thread I've read in awhile.DocofMind made very good points.You probably won't get a 33% reduction (as claimed by the seller)in braking distance unless you hit a big tree.Even with the full AEM brake system you're talking only of a brake distance reduction of 8 feet from 60.WHOAP-DE that's nothing may feel like something.AEM is currently revising the system via calipers(4-pistons I believe).

Use a set of 12.2"(310mm fronts),11.4"((290mm rears)e.g.Fastbrakes) rotors,EBC green pads and Wilwood Superlite calipers((fronts) as mentioned by DocofMind) with over a 30 lb(15 kilo) reduction and a 60-0 reduction of over 24'.

DocofMind
11-10-2002, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by Silvershadow
I'd AVOID the AEM big brakes for now.This has been the most interesting thread I've read in awhile.DocofMind made very good points.You probably won't get a 33% reduction (as claimed by the seller)in braking distance unless you hit a big tree.Even with the full AEM brake system you're talking only of a brake distance reduction of 8 feet from 60.WHOAP-DE that's nothing may feel like something.AEM is currently revising the system via calipers(4-pistons I believe).

Use a set of 12.2"(310mm fronts),11.4"((290mm rears)e.g.Fastbrakes) rotors,EBC green pads and Wilwood Superlite calipers((fronts) as mentioned by DocofMind) with over a 30 lb(15 kilo) reduction and a 60-0 reduction of over 24'.

Thanx for your comments, you know , its really nice to see that this forum is nothing like other civic forums. For the most part, everyone is able to get their ideas across without being flamed. No body knows everything, which is why we all learn from each other.

The Fast Brakes set up is a great set up. That one though, also has its weaknesses. If you take a good look at the caliper from a top view, you will notice that the calipers is a 2 piece design with large gaps in it. Basically, it is a very archaic design. It works very well for what it is, but is has the same problems as the original Billet dynalite, flex under load. When the caliper flexes, it is impossible to get balanced braking.

The calipers that i am using are forged which increases the rigidity of the unit by multiple folds. All of this whie being in a more compact design which is also smaller and lighter.

02-sir
11-11-2002, 10:13 AM
any pics?