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View Full Version : TSX Engine swap not starting



unreasonable
04-20-2008, 03:57 AM
TSX head, cams
K24 accord bottom end
TSX internals (pistons and stuff)
Kpro, tsx base map
Finished the swap, engine turned over. Ran like crap, but it ran.

Did a compression test but I didn't warm up the engine first so the numbers were a wash.

After the test I put the spark plugs back, coils, connect wires back, and now it doesn't start. The longest I could get it to run is a few seconds then it dies. Any further attempts right after just flood it. You can see beads of gas (at least I hope it's gas) sitting on the piston and the spark plugs are drenched after trying to start - all cylinders.

Took valve cover off, chain hasn't skipped teeth. Replaced the spark plugs, checked all sensors to make sure they're connected, same results.

Starter works, it's turning the engine over but it doesn't seem to fire. No fuses are blown.

Ideas?

talonXracer
04-20-2008, 04:17 AM
I would check your calibration and see what the injector size is set at, sounds like too much fuel.

JP_909
04-21-2008, 08:09 AM
Check your map sensor. There is two blue plugs that look like each other, trying switching them over. Good luck. Not sure if this might help.

unreasonable
04-21-2008, 05:34 PM
Thanks for the tips guys, but still no go :(

Some more details:
kpro is set to 310cc, I have injectors from an rsx-S.
Also I'm using the coil packs from my EP3. Are these all the same across the K line? They have diff. part numbers in catalogs.

I labeled the two blues off the TB before pulling them but who knows I may have labeled them wrong. I'll try swapping back... they have not moved since the car ran for its short time.

I found that I had the wiring harness ground wire on the IM instead of the valve cover .. moved that, it makes some more 1-second start clunks than before, but still no go.

I tried the base k24 tsx map (this is the one it ran with before compression test), the accord map, a k20/k24 map, the rsx-s map, no go.

Princess
04-21-2008, 05:39 PM
I have no idea, but good luck to you.

Tnhatch03
04-21-2008, 05:46 PM
are you getting spark and fuel in ALL cylinders?

check your Grounds. since you were messing with the head, you tighten down the cam sensor? how about the crank sensor?

Civic5lug
04-21-2008, 05:51 PM
check for an upgrade on you KManager, make sure its up to date.

Double check timing. Being a couple teeth off on the cams will make it run like that.

JP_909
04-22-2008, 07:39 AM
After all those attemps you should check your battery make sure you have charge. This might sound dumb but I made this mistake, make sure you upload the kal. I keep thinking I was uploading but never did till my little brother help me out with it.

talonXracer
04-22-2008, 07:46 AM
Find a typeS ECU and try that. You may have burned up the drivers for the injectors(in ECU) having a poor ground for the injectors(on mani vrs head)

JP_909
04-22-2008, 08:17 AM
Find a typeS ECU and try that. You may have burned up the drivers for the injectors(in ECU) having a poor ground for the injectors(on mani vrs head)

Never thought of that one. How would you be able to check if it did burn out?

Fico
04-22-2008, 08:22 AM
Thanks for the tips guys, but still no go :(

Some more details:
kpro is set to 310cc, I have injectors from an rsx-S.
Also I'm using the coil packs from my EP3. Are these all the same across the K line? They have diff. part numbers in catalogs.

I labeled the two blues off the TB before pulling them but who knows I may have labeled them wrong. I'll try swapping back... they have not moved since the car ran for its short time.

I found that I had the wiring harness ground wire on the IM instead of the valve cover .. moved that, it makes some more 1-second start clunks than before, but still no go.

I tried the base k24 tsx map (this is the one it ran with before compression test), the accord map, a k20/k24 map, the rsx-s map, no go.



there is a sesor for the coolant and i didnt have mine plugged in and it woul NOT start and did exactly what yours did, check the front of the engine harness for anything you missed, you probably did, because like i said before it sounds exactly what happened with my swap. also the the tps is seperate, and the map plug has another connector (egr i belive) so you will be able to tell that way, and if they were switched youmay need a new map

PAPITUYO326
04-22-2008, 08:38 AM
there is a sesor for the coolant and i didnt have mine plugged in and it woul NOT start and did exactly what yours did, check the front of the engine harness for anything you missed, you probably did, because like i said before it sounds exactly what happened with my swap. also the the tps is seperate, and the map plug has another connector (egr i belive) so you will be able to tell that way, and if they were switched youmay need a new map

Ive had the coolant plug keep me grounded before. Def check your sensors down there. Its easy to forget something.

davisj3537
04-22-2008, 08:44 AM
I'd check to make sure you don't have a squirrel that snuggled up in the throttle body...those damn squirrely squirrels!:mconfused:

SPAM&RICE
04-22-2008, 08:50 AM
I would guess there would be a mesurable amount of compresion even if its cold, your car still runs its not like it stalls out.

davisj3537
04-22-2008, 08:57 AM
Seriously though I would start with double checking the sensors, grounds and battery.

talonXracer
04-22-2008, 08:59 AM
You may have an issue with the IAC, check that it's connector and wires are ok. also check that it isnt stuck in a closed position.

unreasonable
04-22-2008, 07:30 PM
holy list of ideas ... these are things I didn't think about, and I purposely didn't think about it being a burned ecu ... hope I dont need to drop huge cash on another kpro :( I'll check sensors tomorrow, that coolant plug thing sounds like something I probably missed. where is that? anyone have a pic or diagram?

You guys rule, if I get this thing going I'm throwing an ep3 bbq. I'll keep all updated.

davisj3537
04-23-2008, 06:06 AM
The coolant plug is at the very bottom of the throttle body. The plug has a big rubber cover over it.

unreasonable
04-23-2008, 09:00 PM
Note, K24 + RBC = impossible to get to that stupid coolant sensor plug. Anyways I did see the rubber cover at a freakish angle on that plug and got all excited. I ended up taking the front bumper back off (radiator support thing too) in a furious flurry of plastic clips... only to discover it's plugged in. :meek: I reseated it, tried starting, it made the same starter noise then 1-second running clunk.

I have the loop on my TB to keep coolant from running through there like in the Karcepts adapter instructions. Does there actually need to be fluid in there for that sensor to function?

I went through all the sensors I could think of/touch - crank position, cam sensors, that little white one on the side under the cam ones, all the throttle body sensors, and they're all in place. I couldn't find any crazy squirrels either :)

Of course I took the spark plugs back out and they're completely drenched in gas, and you can see beads of it sitting on top of the pistons.


You may have an issue with the IAC, check that it's connector and wires are ok. also check that it isnt stuck in a closed position.
Which one is that and how can you test if it's stuck closed?


Find a typeS ECU and try that. You may have burned up the drivers for the injectors(in ECU) having a poor ground for the injectors(on mani vrs head)
Is there any way to test this without a second ecu lying around, or would the datalog show any freakish numbers from the injectors?

I'm ready to start posting vids/pics of whats going on.
To all you thinking about becoming swap people ... either don't do it or get smart people to do it for you :) Anyone local that's smarter than me?

talonXracer
04-24-2008, 05:53 AM
The coolant plug is at the very bottom of the throttle body. The plug has a big rubber cover over it.


Huh?

Coolant plug on the TB? Are you thinking about the IAC?


I would pull the TB and clean the IAC, or at least make sure the rotor is not siezed up.

satitus
04-24-2008, 06:37 AM
Does anyone know if the coil packs are that much "different" between a TSX and an EP3? Would EP3 coil packs either not fit properly or not provide enough juice to work with TSX injectors?

Civic5lug
04-24-2008, 07:27 AM
I'm runing ep3 coils on mine with no problem

satitus
04-24-2008, 08:28 AM
Damn. Well there goes my theory.
You've been running EP coils on TSX injectors, correct?

Civic5lug
04-24-2008, 11:23 AM
Damn. Well there goes my theory.
You've been running EP coils on TSX injectors, correct?

yup

dc5 jet
04-24-2008, 12:14 PM
make sure your throttle body is on there tight. check if cam caps on the opposite side of the cam gears are aligned. and are you sure there is valve clearance using that k24a4 block with the k24a1 head?

unreasonable
04-24-2008, 06:28 PM
man oh man. Seriously guys, inexperience = bad bad bad. If you want me to just go down in glory walk away now and don't read how incredibly retarded a mistake I have made. I learned the hard way ... everyone go read the entire shop manual before you think of starting this and I mean the whole thing.

So I managed to make a coolant tube out of the air bypass control thermal valve. I literally routed one end to the coolant and the other end to the top of the IMs to happily bathe the injectors in gallons upon gallons of coolant simply because I didn't know what I was doing. :shocked: I discovered this when I took my intake off of the TB and open the plate and look into the IM and see an ocean of coolant hanging out in there.

I am so happy I found the problem, but I've probably destroyed my engine in some manner. :boom:

Thanks for everyone's help. I have learned a valuable lesson here - you can't burn water. Anyone dealt with this kind of situation before?

ALep3
04-24-2008, 06:44 PM
:meek: Never heard of anyone doing it but I'm also not surprised shit like that happens. Sorry to hear it though

Civic5lug
04-24-2008, 06:48 PM
man oh man. Seriously guys, inexperience = bad bad bad. If you want me to just go down in glory walk away now and don't read how incredibly retarded a mistake I have made. I learned the hard way ... everyone go read the entire shop manual before you think of starting this and I mean the whole thing.

So I managed to make a coolant tube out of the air bypass control thermal valve. I literally routed one end to the coolant and the other end to the top of the IMs to happily bathe the injectors in gallons upon gallons of coolant simply because I didn't know what I was doing. :shocked: I discovered this when I took my intake off of the TB and open the plate and look into the IM and see an ocean of coolant hanging out in there.

I am so happy I found the problem, but I've probably destroyed my engine in some manner. :boom:

Thanks for everyone's help. I have learned a valuable lesson here - you can't burn water. Anyone dealt with this kind of situation before?
:jaw: holy fuck bro. If she still cranks thats a good sign that you didnt bend a rod. Blow some ait through there and see if she'll start.

talonXracer
04-24-2008, 07:31 PM
OUCH ! Drain that oil asap, get her running till up to temp and change the oil again. Then do another compression check.

dc5 jet
04-24-2008, 08:01 PM
holy $%^& you hella %^&*ed up bro. lol good thing i told you to check if your throttle body was tight. or else you woulda never looked in there. i was gonna do my swap by myself too. then i said f that cuz i couldnt even set the timing right. it was just too hard.

learning yourself is a good thing but not with this kinda stuff bro. very expensive mistakes will happen.

just get it done right the first time around by a professional. i did.

unreasonable
04-24-2008, 08:43 PM
hell yeah get a pro to do it. Then again I've learned more than I thought I ever would when I started.

Took TB and intake manifold off, dried and soaked up and shop-vac/funnel/tube'd every ounce of fluid I could find, aired out the air assist valve (talonxracer saw your post on k20a org), etc etc... put it all back together and loaded the tsx base map and turned the key.

It runs! WHOOooo hoooo! Of course it's a chimney of white smoke, and not out of the water yet. Also if dc5 jet tells you to check ur throttle body DO IT :)

I'll post numbers and pictures and all of that in due time.

dc5 jet
04-24-2008, 08:50 PM
hell yeah get a pro to do it. Then again I've learned more than I thought I ever would when I started.

Took TB and intake manifold off, dried and soaked up and shop-vac/funnel/tube'd every ounce of fluid I could find, aired out the air assist valve (talonxracer saw your post on k20a org), etc etc... put it all back together and loaded the tsx base map and turned the key.

It runs! WHOOooo hoooo! Of course it's a chimney of white smoke, and not out of the water yet. Also if dc5 jet tells you to check ur throttle body DO IT :)

I'll post numbers and pictures and all of that in due time.

haha im happy for you dude. the motor is still good. your pretty lucky. im surprised that it didnt hydro lock

JP_909
04-25-2008, 08:40 AM
Thats sucks, but you did learn something new.:mconfused:

talonXracer
04-25-2008, 09:05 AM
Now make sure to change out the oil. The oil in the engine is contaminated and it will ruin an engine quicker than running it with no oil.

unreasonable
04-25-2008, 09:08 AM
Yes oil change this afternoon with new filter after work. How does it contaminate the oil exactly?

Hydrolock would mean there was no more room in the chamber at TDC and all space at that point were occupied by water. Water doesn't compress so it would just destroy everything of course. I wasn't getting enough coolant in there to cause hydrolock.

blackhatchsi
04-25-2008, 12:47 PM
congratulations on getting this solved. (i've been following this.) Very glad for you that your engine still runs. I would recheck the plugs when you do your oil change.

itsanep3
04-25-2008, 02:24 PM
Damn man, glad you figured it out and also glad it still runs lol. These Hondas are bulletproof!

dc5 jet
04-27-2008, 05:03 PM
Damn man, glad you figured it out and also glad it still runs lol. These Hondas are bulletproof!

hahaha yeah that

dobbs02si
04-27-2008, 05:10 PM
Im glad theres no ' the bent rod' pics to go along with this thread. You got lucky dog!

unreasonable
04-27-2008, 07:08 PM
Hey guys super awesome update:

I did a compression test, this time with the engine warm. I got the same number from all cylinders (insert more cheers)!! Even better is the engine started when I was done.

White smoke is all nice and gone. I was getting concerned for a bit there as it burned off the excess water but nice clear exhaust now. It doesn't run like crap anymore, but I do have a bit of knock which I assume is the tune (only happens under load around 3000ish). I haven't pushed it more than that - that comes after it's tuned. Also those spark plugs are nice and dry and look good.

It's not 100% though - the battery light stays on, loopy idle if the a/c is off, if the a/c is on my abs light comes on sometimes (wtf?) and other odd electrical things like my auto down window doesn't work and my wipers are only one speed. I'm guessing grounds or I have wires hooked up wrong somewhere. Ideas?

And I lost my radio code :meek:

dc5 jet
04-27-2008, 08:53 PM
hahaha radio code. if you havent written that down... you could be ass'd out lol

jdmrace1
04-27-2008, 10:29 PM
hope it works out man

miaep3
04-28-2008, 05:45 PM
check u'r fuses the batt. belts and altanator.

ALL MotoR Ep3
04-28-2008, 06:12 PM
Make sure all your ground wires are grounded and that everything is plugged up correctly..

unreasonable
04-29-2008, 05:23 PM
Hi,
Green plug on alternator was on but not snapped into place. Fixed!

Made a grounding kit from 8awg wire:
negative to IM to chassis
negative to valve cover
alternator top bolt to chassis
Grounds tested great - why would anyone buy a production grounding kit? You could even make one look blingy from car stereo parts.

Battery light is out, alternator is now charging battery.
Idle is still loopy. TB/IAC is coming off soon.

Technically my orig. issues have been resolved - thank you everyone for your help and ideas! You really kept me motivated when I thought all hope was lost. Of my many years in car forums this site has been one of the most helpful to date.