high-performance alignments

[BigBurch422]

where did that thread go?
i know he had a recommended alignment for a good mix of performance and daily drive-ability(as far as tire wear goes) and i wanted to find the specs for when i get my alignment this week...
anyways, i guess it got deleted with the change, so what do you guys recommend as far as alignment specs?

[BigBurch422]

bummpp

[HappiChild]

yeah. I want to get some info from that thread too. I am about to get my alignment done

[mustclime]

:flypig:

[donnypun]

I start autocross this saturday and am also interested in where this post went... fill us in plz!

[FCobra94]

Luckilly I saved the text from that thread. Here it is for those of you that are interested:


I Figure its about time this is discussed, as it saddens me to see so many people put so much money in to trying to make their cars handle better, be it for the street or competition, and yet constantly go back to the craptackular OEM alignment spec's... its a travesty! So, this threads purpose it to talk about alignments and how they help or hinder your cars performance.

First off, I'm going to assume every one already knows the difference between Camber, Caster and Toe. If not, there are a multitude of resources online that can explain them.


So why is the OEM alignment Crap? Simply because its designed to do two things. A, Maximize tire life and B, Make the car understeer, and thus keep JQ public safe from their own inability to drive properly. So you can see how it may be hampering your cars enthusiasm for turning

We're interested in, as far as street cars go, in Fixing B with out Killing A. How do we go about doing that?

Well, If you look at the OEM spec's, camber wise Honda allows for up to -1.5 deg camber on the rear (part of that "make you understeer thing") where as the front is limited to -.75 or so... Why not reverse them? Run -1.5 on the nose and -.75 on the rear? Your still Technically within OEM Spec's so tire wear should not noticeably increase, and you now have more favorable spec's for turning.

As far as toe... Toe can greatly influence the cars stability and cornering, so getting it right can make or brake a cars enthusiasm for turning. However, Toe has the side effect of Eating Tires, ya you thought it was Camber that ate tires... So, running excessive amounts of toe in an effort to make the car turn better has two downsides that may not be wanted in a street car. 1. Instability under braking as well as possibly making the car tend to wander while driving in straight lines and 2. Eating tires substantially quicker then just about any amount of negative camber...

Given this, it may be best to keep "OEM" toe settings, but if you're adventurous you may want to tweak them a bit to get the car to turn better. Try this, Toe out on the front will tend to make the car turn in quicker, toe in on the nose will make the car understeer more. Given this, Running 1/32 to 1/16th toe out on the nose will improve turn in response with a nominal amount of extra tire wear. For the rear, Toe out will increase the cars tendency to oversteer, where toe in will decrease it. So, initially you may want to run 1/32nd toe IN on the back of the car. just until you get use to the cars new found handling balance. From there you can tweak the rear toe to adjust the cars balance to meet your needs. More toe in to make it understeer more (less oversteer) More towards toe out to make it rotate more.

1/32nd shouldn’t do much, and given the cars tendency to toe in under acceleration on the nose and toe out on the rear while the car is in motion, I figure a little toe out on the nose will compensate for bushing compliance while accelerating giving you about 0 toe, but then under braking will toe out again (improving turn in response). Where on the rear the slight toe in will compensate for the rears natural tendency to toe out while moving. Of course this may not be necessary if your running non-OEM suspension bushings.

Caster... Caster is not adjustable with the stock equipment, and very few companies make Camber + caster plates. But if you are able, Adjusting caster is a great way to improve your cars handling, with only increased steering effort as the con (not a problem on cars with power steering). Stock adjustment calls for up to 2 deg positive Caster, I'd go so far as to double that (4 deg positive caster). because after all its free negative camber as you turn the wheels (yippie!)


So, My opinion on a good High Performance Street Alignment...
Camber Front = -1.5
Camber Rear = -.75
Toe front = 1/32nd toe out
Toe Rear = 1/32nd toe in
Caster = as much positive caster as you can get...

[FCobra94]

Here is what I ended up going with:

Camber Front = -1.5 degrees
Camber Rear = -.75 degrees
Toe front = -1/32nd toe out (-0.03in)
Toe Rear = ZERO

After 5K miles of riding on these specs, the tires are wearing COMPLETELY even all the way around and I haven't even rotated them yet. Turning is now super tight and it feels like a completely different car.

The only thing that I would change the next time around though, is that I wouldn't go as aggressive with the front/rear camber. Although the car steers/handles great, I do a good amount of highway driving and zero racing, so I don't really take full advantage of the increased handling. More importantly, it has hurt my gas mileage by about a mile, or so, per gallon (this can also be attributed to the slightly wider tires that I am running now too).

Given that, I probably would have been just as happy going with -1.25 or -1.0 up front, but that's just me. You can't really lose either way :mbiggrin:

[ep3moschini]

humm. . . I should get an alignment lol

[BigBurch422]

Luckilly I saved the text from that thread. Here it is for those of you that are interested:


I Figure its about time this is discussed, as it saddens me to see so many people put so much money in to trying to make their cars handle better, be it for the street or competition, and yet constantly go back to the craptackular OEM alignment spec's... its a travesty! So, this threads purpose it to talk about alignments and how they help or hinder your cars performance.

First off, I'm going to assume every one already knows the difference between Camber, Caster and Toe. If not, there are a multitude of resources online that can explain them.


So why is the OEM alignment Crap? Simply because its designed to do two things. A, Maximize tire life and B, Make the car understeer, and thus keep JQ public safe from their own inability to drive properly. So you can see how it may be hampering your cars enthusiasm for turning

We're interested in, as far as street cars go, in Fixing B with out Killing A. How do we go about doing that?

Well, If you look at the OEM spec's, camber wise Honda allows for up to -1.5 deg camber on the rear (part of that "make you understeer thing") where as the front is limited to -.75 or so... Why not reverse them? Run -1.5 on the nose and -.75 on the rear? Your still Technically within OEM Spec's so tire wear should not noticeably increase, and you now have more favorable spec's for turning.

As far as toe... Toe can greatly influence the cars stability and cornering, so getting it right can make or brake a cars enthusiasm for turning. However, Toe has the side effect of Eating Tires, ya you thought it was Camber that ate tires... So, running excessive amounts of toe in an effort to make the car turn better has two downsides that may not be wanted in a street car. 1. Instability under braking as well as possibly making the car tend to wander while driving in straight lines and 2. Eating tires substantially quicker then just about any amount of negative camber...

Given this, it may be best to keep "OEM" toe settings, but if you're adventurous you may want to tweak them a bit to get the car to turn better. Try this, Toe out on the front will tend to make the car turn in quicker, toe in on the nose will make the car understeer more. Given this, Running 1/32 to 1/16th toe out on the nose will improve turn in response with a nominal amount of extra tire wear. For the rear, Toe out will increase the cars tendency to oversteer, where toe in will decrease it. So, initially you may want to run 1/32nd toe IN on the back of the car. just until you get use to the cars new found handling balance. From there you can tweak the rear toe to adjust the cars balance to meet your needs. More toe in to make it understeer more (less oversteer) More towards toe out to make it rotate more.

1/32nd shouldn’t do much, and given the cars tendency to toe in under acceleration on the nose and toe out on the rear while the car is in motion, I figure a little toe out on the nose will compensate for bushing compliance while accelerating giving you about 0 toe, but then under braking will toe out again (improving turn in response). Where on the rear the slight toe in will compensate for the rears natural tendency to toe out while moving. Of course this may not be necessary if your running non-OEM suspension bushings.

Caster... Caster is not adjustable with the stock equipment, and very few companies make Camber + caster plates. But if you are able, Adjusting caster is a great way to improve your cars handling, with only increased steering effort as the con (not a problem on cars with power steering). Stock adjustment calls for up to 2 deg positive Caster, I'd go so far as to double that (4 deg positive caster). because after all its free negative camber as you turn the wheels (yippie!)


So, My opinion on a good High Performance Street Alignment...
Camber Front = -1.5
Camber Rear = -.75
Toe front = 1/32nd toe out
Toe Rear = 1/32nd toe in
Caster = as much positive caster as you can get...

alright thanks so much dude
this helps alot since im gettin an alignment tomorrow :mbiggrin:

[Zzyzx]

Glad someone saved that. Else I'd have to rewrite the whole thing. Bah

[thechromecoyote]

sweet. cant wait to get an alignment!

Do we need to invest in aftermarket rear and front camber kits in order to achieve these specs?

[4angrybadgers]

sweet. cant wait to get an alignment!

Do we need to invest in aftermarket rear and front camber kits in order to achieve these specs?
The factory camber bolts should give enough room for adjustment in the front, especially if you use two on each side. I have no idea what the part # is though...

[SPAM&RICE]

Theres a tire place in glendale for a liftime alignment for $170 for that car only. Im going to jump on this from the sounds off this thread.

[FCobra94]

alright thanks so much dude
this helps alot since im gettin an alignment tomorrow :mbiggrin:
Sure thing! Thanks for quoting it in your reply too! That makes it twice as useful! :mrolleyes:

[HondaFreak]

My car (EP3) is set up for road racing. It handles as neutral as I could expect.
-1.5º front camber
-2.0º rear camber
0º Toe all the way around

When I had my alignment done at a "bang'em out shop" they set the camber and let the toe fall where it may within OEM spec, which is a big area .04 to .14, as I recall. This caused the car to push BAD at low speeds. Once the toe was set to zero all the way around, the car no longer pushed.

Christian

[kwiksi]

Here is what I ended up going with:

Camber Front = -1.5 degrees
Camber Rear = -.75 degrees
Toe front = -1/32nd toe out (-0.03in)
Toe Rear = ZERO

After 5K miles of riding on these specs, the tires are wearing COMPLETELY even all the way around and I haven't even rotated them yet. Turning is now super tight and it feels like a completely different car.

The only thing that I would change the next time around though, is that I wouldn't go as aggressive with the front/rear camber. Although the car steers/handles great, I do a good amount of highway driving and zero racing, so I don't really take full advantage of the increased handling. More importantly, it has hurt my gas mileage by about a mile, or so, per gallon (this can also be attributed to the slightly wider tires that I am running now too).

Given that, I probably would have been just as happy going with -1.25 or -1.0 up front, but that's just me. You can't really lose either way :mbiggrin:

What springs/drop you riding on?

[BigBurch422]

Sure thing! Thanks for quoting it in your reply too! That makes it twice as useful! :mrolleyes:

dont be a dick

[Slip_Angle]

Just got my alignment done.

-1.5 Front Camber
-1.5 Rear Camber
1/32 Toe Out in the Front
1/32 Toe In in the Rear

HFP Springs/Shocks
27mm Solid Front Progress Sway
24mm Progress Rear Sway

215/45/16 Falken Azenis RT-615

Autocross Sunday :mbiggrin:

[FCobra94]

What springs/drop you riding on?
KW coilovers
16x7 C8's with 205/50/16 Hankook RS2's
Older RSX-S rear sway bar
D3 Double X brace


dont be a dick
Whatever you say BigBush...

DIAF :mmad:

[BigBurch422]

Whatever you say BigBush...

DIAF :mmad:

fag.

[thechromecoyote]

take it to PMs you two :mrolleyes:

[SiiK20]

great info bud. will definitely use this for my setup!

BUMP!!