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View Full Version : Everything you need to swap an a2 into an EP



WhiteOnRice
04-22-2008, 05:56 PM
You thought this was going to be a write up huh? Well it's not! But it may be someday...

I'm going to make this into a list of things you need to swap a k20a2 into an EP3. The list is for people like me: who need every detail before jumping into an engine swap.

I'm doing the swap in 2 weekends, maybe I'll take some pictures and make a formal write up. I'm pulling it up and out (don't want to mess with the subframe).

What I've gathered that isn't obvious or doesn't bolt in:
-Replace RSX-S power steering pump with EP3 idler pulley
-Serpentine belt: 64" 7-ribbed or EP3 belt with washers to extend alternator pulley outwards.
-RSX-S engine harness, EP3 can be used with modification
-EP shifter may need to be cut to reach reverse ( http://images.sportcompactcarweb.com/tech/0212scc_civichybrid02_zoom.jpg )
-RSX-S ecu (use EP3 until you get your key reprogrammed to ECU by Acura/Honda, keep RPM's low until while using EP3 ECU)
-EP3 axles

Let me know if I should add anything.

nilly1010
04-23-2008, 11:10 PM
you need to keep the ep3 axles i believe

davisj3537
04-24-2008, 07:34 AM
You DO NOT run that on a ep3 ecu under any circumstances. You don't need rsx axles...they are the same as ours. Ep shifter only needs to be cut if you have an 04-05 model and if you have a bcss then there is not cuttin involved. I have never heard anything about washers to extend the alternator...

ClouD
04-24-2008, 07:51 AM
[QUOTE=davisj3537;523418]You don't need rsx axles...they are the same as ours.[QUOTE]

Is the rsx axles the same for the types s and base model? It should be since our motor is there base one.

davisj3537
04-24-2008, 08:07 AM
Is the rsx axles the same for the types s and base model? It should be since our motor is there base one.

Yes they are the same sir

clizoman
04-24-2008, 01:15 PM
you got it right just swap the pump, tensioner, idler and ac compress over.

r_jones06
04-24-2008, 03:20 PM
you need to keep the ep3 axles i believe

that is my understanding too from my post from earlier this week... a2 splines are bigger http://www.ephatch.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43421

blackbelt
04-24-2008, 05:40 PM
I have an A2 swap. This would have come in handy.

davisj3537
04-24-2008, 09:13 PM
The rsx axles wont match up with your hubs is what it is. Your axles have the same spline pattern on the tranny side of the axle.

WhiteOnRice
04-25-2008, 12:22 PM
Yes, you use your EP axles. I don't know why I said RSX-S axles. The splines are larger on the RSX-S (axle nut is 36mm on DC5, 32mm on EP3).


You DO NOT run that on a ep3 ecu under any circumstances.
Why do you say this? I can't start the swapped car with my EP key and Acura says I MUST drive the car to the dealership for them to reprogram the key.

Can anyone confirm what belt I should use? Will EP3 belt work fine with the EP idler pulley and all other pulleys from the rsx-s?

dcmpbl
04-26-2008, 03:21 PM
The general consensus is that a 64 inch belt is the one. Personally, I had to use the EP belt, but feel it is a hair loose(still within the tensioner marks). Using the washers is a good idea that I wish I had thought of(it simplies makes the run of the belt a little longer if this is your personal situation...like me) 64 ~should~ be the one though. And you can "run" the motor with the A3 ecu...to make sure everything is plugged in/installed properly and to get your car to Acura (I did with no consequence). It probably isn't good to see how the motor revs or race down the street, but, gently driven, you can get yourself to the dealer. I actually drove to a Honda first, then on the highway (60ish) to the Acura that helped me out.

rsx-s axles have bigger outer splines, but the inners are the same as the EP3, allowing you to use the EP's.

This is also the time to drop the $30 on the Energy Susp. engine mount inserts. Most likely the originals will be worn if not torn and you don't want to get caught with your motor out while waiting for "shipping-time".

Be sure to have a flare nut wrench for the clutch line, so as not to ruin that. You will be draining the system, so another choice opportunity to upgrade to the stainless steel-braided line that are offered (Corsport.com for example).

Ball joint removal tool is needed--a fork -type will more than likely ruin the boot so get the claw/screw type. Be sure it fits too---the autozone "special" that I got wouldn't fit over my control arm, so I had to grind the insides of the casting a bit to make it work.

Do you have an aftermarket exhaust that you want to still use? You can get away with no modification if you use your EP exhaust manifold/cat downpipe, but the type-s' is so much bigger that I recommend using it. Which brings us to the note of needing to cut/reweld the midpipe for proper fitment.

The RSX-s' charge harness connects to the underhood fuse box a little bit differently. No worry, just bend the connectors to allow a proper fit.

Also a good time to get your fancy red radiator hoses (Samco,OBX,ect.) as the cooling system will be drained. Might as well make a note of having plenty containers for all the fluids you will be draining.

Your going to want oil(6quarts), DOT 3 brake fluid(for clutch system rebleed), and new trans oil (I used the Pennzoil Syncromesh), coolant (again Pennzoil which eeps are going to say stay away from--no issues here).

Installing the intake maifold gasket(aftermarket ones that do not tranfer heat{Hondata,Corsport,ebay,ect}) is sooo much easier with your motor sitting on a pallet vs while it is in your car.

If you take the motor out from the top, you may have to discharge yourr ac system and run the risk of f'ing up other things on the way up and on the way down--notably the hard brake lines. Its up to you, but even the service manual walks you through the process by way of dropping the subframe and then dropping the motor. You will have an engine lift regardless so why not do it the way Honda suggests

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll78/dcmpbl/motorleaving2.jpg

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll78/dcmpbl/motorleaving.jpg

Two cans of PB Blaster will help and some shop towels. Long, flat tipped (skinny flat) screwdrive for the electrical connections...especially the catalytic convvertor ones. Obvious sockets, wrenches, breaker bar, channel locks (make quick work of the factory hose claps--which I suggest you replace with the scerw-type hose clamps)

The stock grounding connection is different on the A2 (If I remember correctly) which, if I am right, will need a longer wire (I had some cheap ebay kit that worked just fine).

ALL MotoR Ep3
04-26-2008, 04:07 PM
Just a a2 motor,kpro ecu and it should drop right in and bolt right up....

WhiteOnRice
04-27-2008, 08:30 AM
Thanks again dcmpbl. You're always a huge help.


This is also the time to drop the $30 on the Energy Susp. engine mount inserts. Most likely the originals will be worn if not torn and you don't want to get caught with your motor out while waiting for "shipping-time".
I've got Innovative mounts. :) The RSX-S mounts came with ESSM too. lol


Just a a2 motor,kpro ecu and it should drop right in and bolt right up....
I don't have kpro :mtongue:

sLiCk
04-27-2008, 12:18 PM
Lifting the front of the car with a cherry picker doesn't look too safe :)

SyckSiR
04-27-2008, 12:33 PM
Thanks again dcmpbl. You're always a huge help.


I've got Innovative mounts. :) The RSX-S mounts came with ESSM too. lol


I don't have kpro :mtongue:

u should tho....i maintain that if u plan to swap/mod your car this should be your first mod.....as it opens up everythng else you can do.

Also on the removal of the motor, i pulled it out thro the top and didnt have to recharge my ac and it was quick. from start to finish (hard start, nothing done - engine on hoist) took me 4 hours.

I agree with the above poster. lifting your car like that is ridiculous. you should never keep your car up on something that has wheels. either use a lift and take it out thro the bottom or jack stands and thro the top.....thats an accident waiting to happen.

WhiteOnRice
04-27-2008, 10:26 PM
u should tho....i maintain that if u plan to swap/mod your car this should be your first mod.....as it opens up everythng else you can do.
Meh, the rsx-s put me back enough. I don't need to spend $1500 to tune an a2 with i/h/e.

Do I use the rsx-s thermo or the ep? I thought I read somewhere you should use the ep.

jdmrace1
04-27-2008, 10:28 PM
thanks for the info, definitely helps

dcmpbl
04-27-2008, 11:26 PM
Lifting the front of the car with a cherry picker doesn't look too safe :)

I felt it was perfectly safe. The strap that I used is rated for more than the entire car weighs with motor. And you are lifting the car without the motor in it. You drop the engine to a dolly on the ground with the hoist. Then grap rebar with hoist, lift car, get motor out of there, lower car. You really only have the car up in the air for a few minutes depending on how many pics you take :mconfused:. I actually completed this part totally by myself. Use hoist to switch motors on dolly. Re-lift car, push new motor into place, and lower car back down.(This part required a friend working the lift, and another friend and I watching clearance into the bay) Once car is back down, use lift to bring motor up...again easier with friends to help line up the mounts.

To say the least, not dangerous if you use a good strap and engine lift.

dcmpbl
04-27-2008, 11:32 PM
No K-pro here either. The motor/trans was enough. I already had the AEM v2 and a Magnaflow. My motor came with a Comptech shorty--to my surprise-- and this car is loud and peppy. I agree that K-pro would be nice, but it isn't needed right away. 1000 plus tune 300-500 is alot of dough.

WhiteOnRice
04-28-2008, 06:36 AM
DC, did you use the a2 thermo? Does your coolent temp gauge rest at the same position it did before swap? Any weird fluctuations?

ALL MotoR Ep3
04-28-2008, 08:00 AM
Well I recommend getting Kpro if you wanna spend another 400 to get your key and immbolizer reprogrammed...I see it like this why spend maybe 200 or more on a stock a2 computer + extra $400 to reprogram your key and immobilizer...when you can spend 800 and get kpro and keep your key and immobilzer and plus be a step closer in case you wanna tune your motor w/ bolt ons......

Guardian
04-28-2008, 08:57 AM
Well I recommend getting Kpro if you wanna spend another 400 to get your key and immbolizer reprogrammed...I see it like this why spend maybe 200 or more on a stock a2 computer + extra $400 to reprogram your key and immobilizer...when you can spend 800 and get kpro and keep your key and immobilzer and plus be a step closer in case you wanna tune your motor w/ bolt ons......

it cost less then a 100 buck. if you paid that much you got ripped off hard

WhiteOnRice
04-28-2008, 10:13 AM
Well I recommend getting Kpro if you wanna spend another 400 to get your key and immbolizer reprogrammed...I see it like this why spend maybe 200 or more on a stock a2 computer + extra $400 to reprogram your key and immobilizer...when you can spend 800 and get kpro and keep your key and immobilzer and plus be a step closer in case you wanna tune your motor w/ bolt ons......
It's actually $45 to get it reprogrammed. I also had the rsx-s ecu already.

I'll get kpro when I need it; stock a2 does not need it. Stop arguing for a $45 vs $1500 cost.

Kpro or not, the ecu is getting reprogrammed so I can keep the immobilizer. :mtongue:

WhiteOnRice
04-28-2008, 09:41 PM
Ball joint removal tool is needed--a fork -type will more than likely ruin the belt so get the claw/screw type. Be sure it fits too---the autozone "special" that I got wouldn't fit over my control arm, so I had to grind the insides of the casting a bit to make it work.
I reread that and am confused. What do you need the ball joint removal tool for? (I have 2 of the fork-types in my shed.)

If you're talking to remove the axle, it's so much easier to leave the ball joint and remove the top 2 bolts/nuts from the spindle.

dcmpbl
05-01-2008, 06:19 PM
Sorry for the confusion... I changed my post to read "boot" not "belt". If you are dropping the motor through the bottom, you're going to want to release the ball joint connecting the knuckle to the lower control arm. I do not know what two screws that you are refering to in order to avoid the ball joints.

dcmpbl
05-01-2008, 06:24 PM
Acura charged me for 1 hour's worth of work (only took 20 mins) @ like $80. Not bad and definately not comparable -price wise- to Kpro. $800 is a low price for Kpro (you will pay more), plus tuning.....

WhiteOnRice
05-01-2008, 08:25 PM
I thought you removed the lower ball joint to allow the knuckle to move move so you could remove the axle, that's why I was talking about the bolts on the spindle.

Anyways, did you need to swap your thermo?

DC, did you use the a2 thermo? Does your coolent temp gauge rest at the same position it did before swap? Any weird fluctuations?

shadowmd
05-02-2008, 04:21 AM
[QUOTE=davisj3537;523418]. Ep shifter only needs to be cut if you have an 04-05 model and if you have a bcss then there is not cuttin involvedQUOTE]

not true lol. i have an 05 ep and when i first got my a2 swap i ran with the stock shifter assembly for about a year then switched to the buddy club. but i never had to mod my stock shifter assembly.

dcmpbl
05-07-2008, 06:08 PM
I thought you removed the lower ball joint to allow the knuckle to move move so you could remove the axle, that's why I was talking about the bolts on the spindle.

Anyways, did you need to swap your thermo?


Thermo? If you mean the thermostat...I used the one that came with the A2

WhiteOnRice
05-10-2008, 11:07 AM
Well I finished the swap last weekend. It started up first try. Had a fluctuating idle with IACV code for a couple days. Idle is perfect now but I still have the code.

I have a 2002 Si and I DID have to shave the shifter to get into reverse. I pulled it up and out and retained A/C.

If anyone has any questions on the swap let me know. Pics soon.

WhiteOnRice
05-10-2008, 11:20 AM
Pixzors.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i224/fizix_skate/IMG_0127.jpg

How to retain A/C if pulling engine up and out.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i224/fizix_skate/IMG_0122.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i224/fizix_skate/IMG_0123.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i224/fizix_skate/IMG_0139.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i224/fizix_skate/IMG_0141.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i224/fizix_skate/IMG_0142.jpg
Just meeting the requirement.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i224/fizix_skate/IMG_0158.jpg
Tension with 60,000 mile a3 serpentine belt. It's just on the edge of the indicator but the auto tensioner is still not fully extended. a3 works but you should use: http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/details/QQBMWQQM5QQDaycoQQMulti_Rib_BeltQQ20002003QQDY5070 640.html

I DO NOT suggest using washers to extend the alternator outwards if using the stock bolts. I stripped 2 bolt holes in the water pump assembly when trying to torque the bolts. Luckily I had another assembly.

ep-unit
05-10-2008, 03:40 PM
Thanks to me you found that belt, I was the one that e-mailed you. Nah its all good, so is that belt perfect for it or what? Did you pull it from the top or did you drop the subfame? Did you start it up with the A3 ecu to drive to the dealer or you got K-pro? Let me know I will be getting my swap done within a week so i need the info thanks

WhiteOnRice
05-10-2008, 11:06 PM
Way to read man! Nah, I just posted that link to help people out. I used the a3 belt with 63,000 miles on it. Works fine. I pulled it up and out (see above about a/c). I used the a3 ecu until I got to Acura. I still have an IACV code. If I reset that it stays off for about 12 hours and will come back on. I'll let you know any progress on that.

Feel free to ask any questions.

ep-unit
05-11-2008, 12:48 AM
Way to read man! Nah, I just posted that link to help people out. I used the a3 belt with 63,000 miles on it. Works fine. I pulled it up and out (see above about a/c). I used the a3 ecu until I got to Acura. I still have an IACV code. If I reset that it stays off for about 12 hours and will come back on. I'll let you know any progress on that.

Feel free to ask any questions.

yah for sure let me know on that code

talonXracer
05-11-2008, 06:18 AM
I found that simply adding a washer or two between the Alternator and block allows the stock Si belt to fit and the belt has the proper tension, with the arrow deadnuts center. The proper bolts have MORE than enough length, but getting some bolts that are 5mm longer will not hurt, if you are concerned. (I have done several swaps and the washers were no issue on every one I have done)


Nice pics!

dcmpbl
05-11-2008, 02:21 PM
Talon...do you feel the washer and Ep belt combo work better than a 64" belt. A year ago, you were sounded fairly sure that the 64" was the way to go. Are we taking a new direction on this subject? Even though I tend to disagree with some imput from you, I always appreciate your imput and experience with which you share with EPHatch and want to know if you have changed thoughts on what belt to use or method to go about when getting a perfect fit.

SSM
05-12-2008, 09:53 AM
suscribed!

WhiteOnRice
05-14-2008, 01:56 PM
I suggest getting some NGK plugs for the swap too. They are the only ones the local Acura dealership stands behind. The reference number you use to get it from an auto parts store is NGK7746. They will most likely have to order them.

ep-unit
05-15-2008, 12:21 AM
is your car still throwing that code?

WhiteOnRice
05-15-2008, 12:23 PM
Yeah, things are more complicated now: http://www.ephatch.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45908

skoundrelusa
06-20-2008, 10:06 AM
very informative thread

koftaboy
06-22-2008, 04:01 PM
HI, i have a K20A3 i was thinking about doing something to this motor like change the head to the type s head K20A or the A2 some people tell me do the whole sawp but its like $ 6000 plus another 1000 to install it i really dont have 7000 to spend or maybe more if anything goes wrong you know so is there any other way to tune the A3 from like 160 HP to like maybe 220 or 240 bolt on or K pro send it to hondata headers, catback, inatke whatever if any 1 can help with a good advise please do so thankx

biga2442
06-23-2008, 05:39 AM
HI, i have a K20A3 i was thinking about doing something to this motor like change the head to the type s head K20A or the A2 some people tell me do the whole sawp but its like $ 6000 plus another 1000 to install it i really dont have 7000 to spend or maybe more if anything goes wrong you know so is there any other way to tune the A3 from like 160 HP to like maybe 220 or 240 bolt on or K pro send it to hondata headers, catback, inatke whatever if any 1 can help with a good advise please do so thankx


7000 k wow
types swap 3500
kpro your stock ecy 800
use everything else for now from you a3 free
a compitent shop to install your motor 500

so i see 4800 and you should be able to sell you
tranny
ac compressor
starter
alternator half shaft
throttle body
harness
etcetcetcetc..

koftaboy
06-24-2008, 12:15 AM
thank you soo much, but its not that easy like how your saying it you know!!! ita not easy to sell everthing that fast or its gona take a long time youknow plus i looked for like 2 month i found the K20A R no less then 5,500 without anything just the the whole swap if u can tell me where i can find it that cheap the way your saying then please please help me but i just wanted to make something out of the A3 you know kpro a2 or A1 head some bolt on you know i seriously in anyway you think i can do 250HP to the wheel or more but no swap or do i have to get a swap no chance am sooo sorry i talk to much but i just want help and its seems like every one hates A3's thankx again

Mighty_Mouse
07-26-2008, 10:11 PM
Well I recommend getting Kpro if you wanna spend another 400 to get your key and immbolizer reprogrammed...I see it like this why spend maybe 200 or more on a stock a2 computer + extra $400 to reprogram your key and immobilizer...when you can spend 800 and get kpro and keep your key and immobilzer and plus be a step closer in case you wanna tune your motor w/ bolt ons......

$400? You got jacked, fool.

Strife
07-26-2008, 10:35 PM
$400? You got jacked, fool.

How much does it cost usually? $400 sounds insane.

03ep3 stapel
07-27-2008, 03:21 AM
this was all helpfull for me to read too because i am getting an a2 and building the bottom end and swapping it thanks

WhiteOnRice
08-20-2008, 10:02 AM
How much does it cost usually? $400 sounds insane.
Mine was just under $56

maconperformanc
08-24-2008, 09:03 PM
nice thread...wish some of you guys could help me.

solidcoma18
09-01-2011, 03:33 PM
I'm getting everything ready to do the K20A2 swap next week but I got a question, can a use the A3 alternator and crankshaft pulley because the one that came with the engine A2 pulley has a little piece missing and onother thing, can I use the A3 throtle body because the engine the I got came without the TP sensor. Thnaks!!!

j0000stin
09-01-2011, 06:05 PM
I'm getting everything ready to do the K20A2 swap next week but I got a question, can a use the A3 alternator and crankshaft pulley because the one that came with the engine A2 pulley has a little piece missing and onother thing, can I use the A3 throtle body because the engine the I got came without the TP sensor. Thnaks!!!

yes and yes

AKEP
09-01-2011, 06:18 PM
when i did the tsx 6 gear in my ep trans i didn't have to cut the shifter nothing. i have an 04-05. the part i believe that lets you shift into a 6th and reverse is inside the tranny. part of the shifter arm selector thingy.

edit: just saw the age of this thread. but i'll leave my tidbit here incase someone else decides they need to yank out a shifter to "notch" it.

Jdmdomo
12-08-2012, 02:27 AM
Old thread , Great info