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View Full Version : HELP: Hondata's "stock" k24a2 tune



chubbychu
04-26-2008, 03:36 AM
With the supplied calibrations in k-pro from Hondata, there is a supposedly stock TSX tune. This is in fact not true. From Hondata's user forum, a thread regarding this k24a2 tune reveals that it is closer to the TSX reflash offered.

http://www.hondata.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6570&sid=97ca8b3e5c27de11c5d422c9a60dae30

This tune contains all the normal good stuff that hondata does to their tunes. (optimized VTEC crossover, redline, fuel, ignition...etc...). So heres the problem:

From the first day after having the k24a2 swap done, I used this tune and would severely knock and ping from 4600(VTEC)-6000(STOCK VTEC) rpm. After severely retarding the ignition (6-8*)from rpms 4600 to around 6000rpm @ WOT, I felt like It was making the car run a lot slower. And not only that but I was still getting random knocking from untuned areas of the map, and strangely enough the knock sensor would illuminate at the VTEC crossover point (4600) depending on throttle position.

well, I felt fed up with that crappy tune. and decided to put VTEC back to 6000 and see what that would do. Unfortunately now the car, doesn't utilize VTEC until 6,000rpms HOWEVER, I feel it is a lot more drivable and it DOES feel pretty cool to get a real vtec kick.

If possible, I would really appreciate it if someone could take a look at some tunes for me.

I'm gonna go take some fresh ones first thing in the morning. Thanks!

Modifications: SRI, Stock ep3 Header 2-1/4" midpipe, RBB manifold.

Slip_Angle
04-26-2008, 07:52 AM
That was my post!

I didn't find the tune knocked much but it sure was lean in areas. STFT was crazy pretty much everywhere in WOT and Closed Loop.

I over-laid the TODA K20a2 fuel maps and A/F got much better across the board ... tuning got much easier.

Your knocking seems excessive and I wonder if you have a knock sensor issue. With the ignition values in the k24a2 tune you should be knocking very little and certainly not having to remove 6-8 degrees. What is the A/F in the areas your knocking? Is your vtec cross-over going really lean?

jimmyjames
04-26-2008, 08:01 AM
This is kind of BS isn't it? There should be a stock K24 tune available.
Email this guy as he has a tune for a K24A2 w/ bolt ons (rbc, cai, jrrh, t1r midpipe, stock axle back on an EP). hhaw3(at)hotmail.com

Link to slip_angle's/hondata's K24A2 thread for reference:
http://www.hondata.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=25775

talonXracer
04-26-2008, 09:06 AM
No two engines will run the same off the same cal.

Did you try adding fuel instead of pulling ignition, and are they all true knock?

Did you check the valve lash?

I start with a K20A2 calibration with adding 10% fuel to all tables and another 10% on the low cam tables, then street tune from there and it usually works out very well untill the engine can get on the dyno.

beechstreet
05-06-2008, 10:21 AM
maybe get it dynotuned? Contact BlackTrax if you havent already!

Jpax
05-06-2008, 05:00 PM
No two engines will run the same off the same cal.

Did you try adding fuel instead of pulling ignition, and are they all true knock?

Did you check the valve lash?

I start with a K20A2 calibration with adding 10% fuel to all tables and another 10% on the low cam tables, then street tune from there and it usually works out very well untill the engine can get on the dyno.

do this first,

You need to check A/F first and then adjust Ignition,
start with out a target A/F around 13.5 for N/A then if its knocking still then pull igniton, it shouldn't have to be that much retarded by 8 degrees seems like alot, are you running high oct. fuel?

chubbychu
05-06-2008, 11:09 PM
do this first,

You need to check A/F first and then adjust Ignition,
start with out a target A/F around 13.5 for N/A then if its knocking still then pull igniton, it shouldn't have to be that much retarded by 8 degrees seems like alot, are you running high oct. fuel?


Ive been getting 91 :)

I started off the tune making sure A/F was as close as possible to the preset target A/F as prescribed on the MAP.

columns 1-7 @ 14.7 and columns 8-10 @ 13.5

I guess thats something i didnt think about, but, if i set the target A/F lower will that help with everything? Most of my knocking happens at partial throttle anyways.

Would it be better to Re-tool my current tune? Or start over with Hondata's "stock" TSX tune.

Also, Do I leave the WHOLE map @ 13.5 Target A/F? OR better to have it change values between different parts of the fuel map (like the Hondata one)?

Ive been doing a lot of data-logging, however, I keep playing with maps as soon As I get them logged, rendering the Tune outdated. I will however got something for you guys to check out as soon as possible.

Tnhatch03
05-06-2008, 11:13 PM
some tuning does not take into account part throttle acceleration. when i had my emanage, it was not tuned for part throttle. it was either wide open or normal driving. it takes more time to tune for part throttle.

good luck man. hopefully you get it figured out.

chubbychu
05-06-2008, 11:21 PM
some tuning does not take into account part throttle acceleration. when i had my emanage, it was not tuned for part throttle. it was either wide open or normal driving. it takes more time to tune for part throttle.

good luck man. hopefully you get it figured out.

Oh, im sure thisll work out, just takes time. like you said. BtW: are you referring to open/closed loop? or is that something different?

The majority of random knocking happens around part throttle (4000rpm @ 3/4 throttle), so that made me suspect it was due to the A/F @ 14.7 in those columns.

I just need to know whether to leave the whole map at 13.5 or have different target A/F ratios; before i start tuning again.

Tnhatch03
05-06-2008, 11:27 PM
Oh, im sure thisll work out, just takes time. like you said. BtW: are you referring to open/closed loop? or is that something different?

The majority of random knocking happens around part throttle (4000rpm @ 3/4 throttle), so that made me suspect it was due to the A/F @ 14.7 in those columns.

I just need to know whether to leave the whole map at 13.5 or have different target A/F ratios; before i start tuning again.

closed/open loop is different. when you are tuning, you want the parameter in Open Loop.

i will not even attempt to answer the A/F questions. my tuning knowledge is VERY VERY minimal, if that.

chubbychu
05-06-2008, 11:37 PM
closed/open loop is different. when you are tuning, you want the parameter in Open Loop.

i will not even attempt to answer the A/F questions. my tuning knowledge is VERY VERY minimal, if that.

then what u talkin bout willis?! haha jk jk. Actually, any kind of input is good! And i appreciate it a lot!

WOT automatically puts you in OPEN loop. Which is super helpful for...well... WOT tuning. (duh) lol. :)

Alright, well, in that case, I'll wait on pax for a definite answer. I Cant wait to resolve this power/knocking issue.

By the way again, the car drives fine. with maybe 5-6 knocks for the 15 minute drive home. Mostly when i step on it from partial throttle. It would just be nice to get a little more power from the little guy.

talonXracer
05-07-2008, 05:01 AM
But if you are in closed loop while tuning, the Long Term fuel trim is used when in WOT, so if your part throttle tune is off by alot your WOT run is adjusted by the LTFT amount.

After you get dyno tuned you still have 5-10 hours of street tuning to do for part throttle.

5-6 knocks is not that bad, some knocks are inevitable(sp).

Slip_Angle
05-07-2008, 09:01 PM
But if you are in closed loop while tuning, the Long Term fuel trim is used when in WOT, so if your part throttle tune is off by alot your WOT run is adjusted by the LTFT amount.

Fuel trim is not operational in open loop.

Slip_Angle
05-07-2008, 09:10 PM
Ive been getting 91 :)

I started off the tune making sure A/F was as close as possible to the preset target A/F as prescribed on the MAP.

columns 1-7 @ 14.7 and columns 8-10 @ 13.5

I guess thats something i didnt think about, but, if i set the target A/F lower will that help with everything? Most of my knocking happens at partial throttle anyways.

Would it be better to Re-tool my current tune? Or start over with Hondata's "stock" TSX tune.

Also, Do I leave the WHOLE map @ 13.5 Target A/F? OR better to have it change values between different parts of the fuel map (like the Hondata one)?

Ive been doing a lot of data-logging, however, I keep playing with maps as soon As I get them logged, rendering the Tune outdated. I will however got something for you guys to check out as soon as possible.

14.7 is good for closed loop. 13.2 - 13.5 is good for open loop. I use 13.2.

Don't put the whole map to 13.5, you'll just be wasting gas.

When is your knock occurring? Is it at throttle tip in? IE: Just when you hit the gas? If so, you can adjust the TPS ignition retard for the gear it happens in.

Did you try removing 2 degrees ignition for both cam angles?

Jpax
05-07-2008, 10:33 PM
14.7 is good for closed loop. 13.2 - 13.5 is good for open loop. I use 13.2.

Don't put the whole map to 13.5, you'll just be wasting gas.

When is your knock occurring? Is it at throttle tip in? IE: Just when you hit the gas? If so, you can adjust the TPS ignition retard for the gear it happens in.

Did you try removing 2 degrees ignition for both cam angles?

This was what I was going to say, and to add to this

the Kal you showed up your cam angles are before high cam switch (part throttle coloms 3 ~ 7 ) are very step curve so what might be happening is under part thottle around 3500 rpm the cam angles are 8~12 degrees , then when you throttle on the cam angle has to jump to 20~30 so fast. that type of steep just should be avoided, level the cam angle or have a less incline.

chubbychu
05-08-2008, 09:59 PM
14.7 is good for closed loop. 13.2 - 13.5 is good for open loop. I use 13.2.

Don't put the whole map to 13.5, you'll just be wasting gas.

When is your knock occurring? Is it at throttle tip in? IE: Just when you hit the gas? If so, you can adjust the TPS ignition retard for the gear it happens in.

Did you try removing 2 degrees ignition for both cam angles?

By "removing 2 degress ignition for both cam angles", you mean...adjust the cam angle tables? (not quite confident enough to mess with that...)

Yes at Throttle Tip-in, I get a knock whether its in 4th or 5th gear, its always around 4000-5000 rpm depending on Throttle position.


thre Kal you showed up your cam angles are before high cam switch (part throttle coloms 3 ~ 7 ) are very step curve so what might be happening is under part thottle around 3500 rpm the cam angles are 8~12 degrees , then when you throttle on the cam angle has to jump to 20~30 so fast. that type of steep just should be avoided, level the cam angle or have a less incline.

what affect will leveling cam angle have? Also, is it possible for you to level it for me? I have no idea what to do about cam angles yet. I'm going to learn about it right now though. :)

chubbychu
05-09-2008, 01:48 AM
No luck on CAM angle tuning. I did some runs with some cam angle changes but no success. ALTHOUGH, i DO have a fresh tune with Datalog!

I left the redline @ 4600, and surprisingly, I had to tune the 9-10th column's ignition down almost 2* lower than when I raised the redline to 6000.


Thanks for all your help guys!

Uhoh. datalog wont upload. Ill try again tomorrow. or If not too much trouble for you guys, i could email it?

talonXracer
05-09-2008, 08:28 AM
Fuel trim is not operational in open loop.


Only partially true.

Long Term fuel trim is retained for open loop driving operation, Short Term is not. That is why you want absolutely the minimum to zero LTFT, or it really screws up your tuning.

I was just street tuning a typeS this morning and I double checked this, Doug from Hondata also told me the same thing.

Jpax
05-09-2008, 12:59 PM
upload this and tune for A/F please

Slip_Angle
05-09-2008, 08:21 PM
Only partially true.

Long Term fuel trim is retained for open loop driving operation, Short Term is not. That is why you want absolutely the minimum to zero LTFT, or it really screws up your tuning.

I was just street tuning a typeS this morning and I double checked this, Doug from Hondata also told me the same thing.

Ya, your right, I meant LTFT and should have elaborated. It's actually quite obvious since STFT is really just closed loop operation... AKA: Adjusting AF to match AFCMD...

I used Raz Dyno and Theta Dyno to do all of my cam angle tuning today on the street. It worked very well. I may start a thread about it.

chubbychu
05-10-2008, 01:42 AM
upload this and tune for A/F please


holy crap! I just went out to do this!!!

i had to still decrease the ignition, but its pretty much knock free almost!

How did you know what to do with the cam timing? thats amazing!

Slip_Angle
05-10-2008, 09:36 PM
upload this and tune for A/F please

PAX: What supporting mods did this k24a2 have? Also, was this a dyno tuned calibration?

Just curious. The ignition is decreased in allot of places over the stock tune. The cam angles are interesting as well but very different from the ones I developed yesterday.

chubbychu
05-10-2008, 10:25 PM
PAX: What supporting mods did this k24a2 have? Also, was this a dyno tuned calibration?

Just curious. The ignition is decreased in allot of places over the stock tune. The cam angles are interesting as well but very different from the ones I developed yesterday.

It is my k24, and all I have is short Intake. Bone stock k24 with stock header/midpipe/axelback.

And the decrease in ignition was me, i street tuned out a lot of knocks by decreasing timing.

the major thing that Joe did was cam angle adjustment. and that HELPED eliminate a lot of the VTEC cross-over knocks.

Slip_Angle
05-24-2008, 09:14 PM
It is my k24, and all I have is short Intake. Bone stock k24 with stock header/midpipe/axelback.

And the decrease in ignition was me, i street tuned out a lot of knocks by decreasing timing.

the major thing that Joe did was cam angle adjustment. and that HELPED eliminate a lot of the VTEC cross-over knocks.

Interesting cam angles. Joe, did you dyno these cam angles or street tune them? What mods did the K24a2 have when you did the cam angles?

I got thinking about my cam tuning and a couple of items came up. The first is I didn't bracket my angles and the second was that my mid range didn't "feel" as good as the stock k24a2 tune. So.. I went for a ride with my tune first, then the stock tune. The stock tune felt smoother through out the power band with no stepping. My tune felt weaker in the mid range but came on strong after 6K... That could just be because there was a power dip and not because it's stronger than the stock tune.. Anyways, this is all seat of the pants but I'm very interested in other people's tunes and their cam angles for similar mods on a k24a2.

Below is a pic of the high and low cams that made the most power.

http://www.mts.net/~stlukacs/cam-angles.jpg

Jpax
05-26-2008, 12:15 AM
I would like to know how you got the VTC to advance to 50 degrees without modifying the VTC on a K24a2

the VTC limits the cam advance to 32 degrees at most on K24a2 thats why they modifiy the VTC to get a full 45 degrees of advance.

Jpax
05-26-2008, 12:09 PM
well, I should correct my self, the max hondata said it will go is 27 degrees.

I used a modified VTC on the K24a2 build I did but it was only good for 45 degrees, I didn't want to push it out to 50 incase of valve to piston contact.

Slip_Angle
05-26-2008, 08:52 PM
I would like to know how you got the VTC to advance to 50 degrees without modifying the VTC on a K24a2

the VTC limits the cam advance to 32 degrees at most on K24a2 thats why they modifiy the VTC to get a full 45 degrees of advance.

I'm not sure if you were talking to me but if so, I have the stock VTC gear. Theta Dyno just has those labels on the left. The actual cam degree is on the right side. 10lowcam, 20high cam etc etc...

chubbychu
06-10-2008, 08:12 PM
Finally Got a chance to street tune at part throttle. The good news is all the knocks are pretty much gone.

The bad news is...all the power is gone too. haha. Maybe its a placebo but, i felt like everytime i took out some ignition I lost a little bit of power.

So anyways, I just have a quick question. On my high cam fuel map, a lot of the fuel curve lines scrunch together really close. Please observe.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v211/chubbychu2/fuelcurvescrunch.jpg

Is this normal or due to unintuitive tuning on my part? I went through a bunch of other tunes and none of them come that close to each other. Please advise. Thanks!

chubbychu
06-11-2008, 08:10 PM
bump for some help.