Engine Debate - Swap Genuises Please Come

[Breakep3]

I've been trying to decide exactly which route I would like to go with my EP3. N/A, F/I, Swapped etc... From everything I have gathered it would make the most since to do a swap.

Now, obviously a k20a2 from what I have gathered would be the fastest but it seems guys who know their shit, Talon/Davis, etc swear by the k24? Why is that?

Questions.
1. Why go with a k24 over a k20?

2. What is the most cost efficient swap to do? Meaning most bang for your buck or in this case fastest car for your buck.

3. What is most logical swap for someone wanting a extremely reliable daily driver (17 year old college student), N/A swap, but with a built motor? (Cams,RH,etc) I don't really know what built necessarily means but I will have mods to it.

4. Would sticking with the k20a3 and modding the heck out of it be reliable? (http://forums.clubep3.net/showthread.php?t=563994) Props to that guy, I think 200hp would be good enough for me, though I would potentially want more at a later date) or just JRSC and build as money permits?

Also to help put into perspective what I want to accomplish with the build of my car (not necessarily accomplish with the swap; but continuing to build the engine afterwards) so you all can better guide me to my best bet. I want to run Mid to Low 13's. (I will do some minor weight reduction, backseats, spare/jack, My 100 pound system :-D )

Again, I have read a lot here and k20a and over at ivtec and cannot take everything in.

Grace your knowledge upon me......

[Kerby]

1. Why go with a k24 over a k20?

2. What is the most cost efficient swap to do? Meaning most bang for your buck or in this case fastest car for your buck.


i will answer the first 2:

1.) to answer your question: there's no replacement for displacement. Straight and to the point. That and you get's gobs of torque.

2.) The answer is alittle complicated. What result do you want? What's your poison? Turbo, Surpercharge, N/A? The k24a2 which is found in the TSX is basically a factory 2.4L "stoker" of the k20a2 found in the RSX-S. You do have a higher compression. I think it's somewhere around 10.6. This engine is expensive to get. Around probably 2500-3200 depending on mileage. Now, If your going to use force induction as your power adder, than the best route to go is make a "poor man's tsx". Bottom end k24a1 fround in a 02-06 CRV, with a k20a2, z1, z3 head. These can be found in the RSX-S or 06+ Si. This will give you true Vtak, but a lower compression. 9.6 to be exact. this combo can be found for 1000-1600 depending on condition, and after selling a few not needed parts on ephatch.

Another route would be to simply get a k24a1. The head still has the VTEC-Economy technology, but the flow characterists of the head are similar if not better than the flow in the k20a2 head. Search for the flow chart. I've found complete engines wil very mileage for under 800 clams. The good thing about the k24a1 is if your are swapping directly with no power adders and **no cams** then you can basically upgrade your injectors to 310cc and run the stock ep3 ECU. The benefits is that you get around 20ft# of torque above the 20A3.

[davisj3537]

3. What is most logical swap for someone wanting a extremely reliable daily driver (17 year old college student), N/A swap, but with a built motor? (Cams,RH,etc) I don't really know what built necessarily means but I will have mods to it.

I want to run Mid to Low 13's.

I read the whole post and these things jumped out at me. Well when it comes to reliable you cannot beat a NA motor. It sounds like you are willing to do heavy bolt ons and cams. I would stay away from an actual build to save money cuz you wont need it to hit mid to low 13s.

I honestly feel like a tsx motor would fit your fancy. Get a RH/CAI/RBC/Bored TB/IMG/Mounts/Catback Exhaust/Kpro/Stage 1 cams/Stage 2 clutch/Type S fly. If your budget can handle all that. That is going to cost you alot of money but that is the most reliable way to get where you wanna be. This would be a nasty NA motor.

Parts only if you buy some of them used is going to run about $5600. Don't forget about labor costs too. For instance I do installs on the side and would charge about 800 for all of that which is much cheaper than you could ever get from an actual shop. So lets say you went to an actual shop you would be looking at closer to 2000. So now we are looking at 7500 or so...you would be better off buying a faster car in the first place:mconfused:

[thechromecoyote]

Another route would be to simply get a k24a1. The head still has the VTEC-Economy technology, but the flow characterists of the head are similar if not better than the flow in the k20a2 head. Search for the flow chart. I've found complete engines wil very mileage for under 800 clams. The good thing about the k24a1 is if your are swapping directly with no power adders and **no cams** then you can basically upgrade your injectors to 310cc and run the stock ep3 ECU. The benefits is that you get around 20ft# of torque above the 20A3.

Not to mention when you do get around to Kpro, cams, etc, it responds marvelously to aggressive 2 lobe cams and/or boost thanks to its flow characteristics and lower compression.

[jimmyjames]

Questions.
1. Why go with a k24 over a k20?
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K24 produces more torque but rpm range is same as a3. Thus it is almost the same comfortability to the a3 but much more usable power. The A2 produces power but it is higher rpms and the torque figures are lower.
torque helps move the car, HP keeps the car moving. torque > HP

2. What is the most cost efficient swap to do? Meaning most bang for your buck or in this case fastest car for your buck.
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All swaps are comparable in price with exception of the K20A. That engine is $$$ because it is JDM. The K24A2 from the TSX was cheap but nowadays, it is slightly more expensive. The easiest thing to do is mix/match parts from other K24s from a CRV or element with a k20a2 head.

3. What is most logical swap for someone wanting a extremely reliable daily driver (17 year old college student), N/A swap, but with a built motor? (Cams,RH,etc) I don't really know what built necessarily means but I will have mods to it.
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A built motor is one where the internals are replaced. It usually requires a lot of money and labor. The easiest thing for you is a direct swap (non-built). K24A2 or K20A2 swap is ideal.

4. Would sticking with the k20a3 and modding the heck out of it be reliable? (http://forums.clubep3.net/showthread.php?t=563994) Props to that guy, I think 200hp would be good enough for me, though I would potentially want more at a later date) or just JRSC and build as money permits?
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I added basic bolt ons and then upgraded to a JRSC and now will be swapping in a mildly built engine. Not only am I not pulling perfectly good parts OUT of the car, but it is cost effective in the sense that I mod when I have money for it. Also, I get to experience the process along the way and not get too tired of the car too quick.

Also to help put into perspective what I want to accomplish with the build of my car (not necessarily accomplish with the swap; but continuing to build the engine afterwards) so you all can better guide me to my best bet. I want to run Mid to Low 13's. (I will do some minor weight reduction, backseats, spare/jack, My 100 pound system :-D )
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Adding a JRSC race version on the stock motor with bolt ons and good tuning will get you mid - low 13s. My question would be why is a time figure so important? Who really cares how fast your car can go in a straight line? There are people on here (like myself) who have never raced their car but have a quick ride with excellent handling that outperforms a lot of other cars on the road. Now THAT is what makes me happy.

Again, I have read a lot here and k20a and over at ivtec and cannot take everything in.
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Spend your time reading and take physical notes with time and prices and you'll figure out what is best.
Or, make a master mod list and have pros and cons for each component.

[Breakep3]

My question would be why is a time figure so important? Who really cares how fast your car can go in a straight line? There are people on here (like myself) who have never raced their car but have a quick ride with excellent handling that outperforms a lot of other cars on the road. Now THAT is what makes me happy.


Jimmyjames, thanks for taking the time to answer all of my questions. Now, where I live (Suburb of Dallas) there is only straight lines, there is absolutely no twisties anywhere that I know of, so when I go out to cruise it's always in a straight line.

And as far as racing is concerned, I would go to the local track sometimes, but street runs would be minimal, and only would race friends. I've known to many people who have died street racing (3 in the past two years) for me to ever do it regularly, I will only race a absolutely perfect straight away (granted it has 3 lanes) with no traffic.

I can't really tell you why I want a faster car. The stock ep3 is drastically slow, and I just want a faster car. I said mid to low 13's because that is a nice logical figure that can be achieved without totally ruining my pocket or reliability. I would like to avoid FI if possible, granted Im sure it's ALOT of fun.


And Davis, since you live in DFW (Im in McKinney, 30 Minutes North of Dallas) I could get you to install the shit, which would save me a ton of money. But do you have access to a Dyno? I would definitely want my car to be tuned with kpro so it would run reliably yet still produce more horsepower.

So the best NA reliable route is k24a2 with a k20a2 head? What would this realistically cost Davis? Since your local =))

And one more question, My 2005 k20a3 is under 40,000 miles. Are these engines worth anything? It is absolutely flawless, the previous owner was a teacher and traded it in for a new mini, so it was obviously unmolested.

[jimmyjames]

Understandable.

Talk to Mike (02Silversihb). He is local to you and pretty much did a ton of crap to his car (swaps, transmission work, turbo, JRSC,...) He knows all the different possibilities well because he's done them all.

He is easy to find on here now. He's the one with the highest post count. :mbiggrin:

[ALL MotoR Ep3]

Listen to Jimmy James...He definitely knows he stuff....and like he said torque over hp..I would definitely go for the a k24 if I were you tho...cause once you feel that torque on it your fall in love with it even more....or if you wanna rev high...just go wit the k20a2

[K-Shark]

So the best NA reliable route is k24a2 with a k20a2 head? What would this realistically cost Davis? Since your local =))

And one more question, My 2005 k20a3 is under 40,000 miles. Are these engines worth anything? It is absolutely flawless, the previous owner was a teacher and traded it in for a new mini, so it was obviously unmolested.

keep the k24a2 head, you don't need to swap out to the k20a2 head b/c the TSX head flows pretty damn good.

k20a3's sell for around 600-800 depending on mileage and condition.

[talonXracer]

K24A2 w/kpro and valvetrain can spin as high as a stock A2 can . If you stay with the stock TSX mani/PRB mani, then keep the TSX head. But if you want to use big cams, then the RBC and PRB head will work much better. Go no lighter than a 11 pound flywheel(PRC is 10.25).

[davisj3537]

And Davis, since you live in DFW (Im in McKinney, 30 Minutes North of Dallas) I could get you to install the shit, which would save me a ton of money. But do you have access to a Dyno? I would definitely want my car to be tuned with kpro so it would run reliably yet still produce more horsepower.

So the best NA reliable route is k24a2 with a k20a2 head? What would this realistically cost Davis? Since your local =))

And one more question, My 2005 k20a3 is under 40,000 miles. Are these engines worth anything? It is absolutely flawless, the previous owner was a teacher and traded it in for a new mini, so it was obviously unmolested.

Yeah I can put it all in for you. I don't have access to a dyno but could give you a great street tune till you can afford to go somewhere expensive and get a prof tune. Just a plain old k24a2 is great and is very close to the a2 head anyway but has better low cam lobes. The a3 motor alone you would be lucky to sell for 600. How much it all costs depends on what mods you want to get. Some are a must and some are a want. I reccomend atleast getting CAI/RH/E/kpro/stage2 clutch/flywheel. That will get your ball rolling relatively quickly. Should get you down in the 13s fairly easily.:thumb: I have a few of these parts chilling at the house...

[Breakep3]

Yeah I can put it all in for you. I don't have access to a dyno but could give you a great street tune till you can afford to go somewhere expensive and get a prof tune. Just a plain old k24a2 is great and is very close to the a2 head anyway but has better low cam lobes. The a3 motor alone you would be lucky to sell for 600. How much it all costs depends on what mods you want to get. Some are a must and some are a want. I reccomend atleast getting CAI/RH/E/kpro/stage2 clutch/flywheel. That will get your ball rolling relatively quickly. Should get you down in the 13s fairly easily.:thumb: I have a few of these parts chilling at the house...

Sounds good, I'm paying off my car with my graduation money (made a huge down payment 9k so I can pay it off this summer :-D), so my realistic goal is to due the swap next May. (May 09)

In the meantime, as far as a CAI/RH/Kpro (I already have an exhaust, BCPS to be exact)
What do you have laying around as far as that is concerned? And I can go ahead and get a CAI/RH and Kpro correct? All this can be moved to the k24 upon the swap?

[davisj3537]

Sounds good, I'm paying off my car with my graduation money (made a huge down payment 9k so I can pay it off this summer :-D), so my realistic goal is to due the swap next May. (May 09)

In the meantime, as far as a CAI/RH/Kpro (I already have an exhaust, BCPS to be exact)
What do you have laying around as far as that is concerned? And I can go ahead and get a CAI/RH and Kpro correct? All this can be moved to the k24 upon the swap?

Yes. You can swap all that over when it is time for the swap. Well I have RH/CAI/E/Type S Flywheel/nitrous kits x2/extra throttle body(spare for sending to get bored). I just sold the RH/E/CAI though.lol. I'm putting a k24 in a customer's car on the 16th and he bought those to go with the motor. To be honest look into getting a used kpro and CAI. They don't "go bad". You need a special header to fit a K24 so shop wisely before purchasing.