how to: heel toe downshifting

[MugsyTheGr8]

im sure alot of you guys are pros at it, but im still a newb at it and im sure some others are too.

here's an article i found on Edmunds that really helped me out. Click here (http://www.edmunds.com/advice/youngdrivers/articles/119593/article.html)

[RedSiBaron]

good post, this is a good habit to get into, and the purpose of this is to rev match...

i do this automatically now, and i also double clutch

which means when you put in the clutch on downshifts you shift to neutral and let the clutch out and rev match and then engage the clutch again to shift down, and then let out the clutch to finish your shift...

good habit...i had to learn it on my old car cuz the syncros were gone 1st through 3rd and if i didnt double clutch and rev match it wouldnt downshift...

[player757]

i revmatch + double clutch every shift every day i blew up my 3rd gear syncro is shot. plus it add just a lil more to driving. keeps me happy with the car

[RHCP0801]

seems confusing to me but this is my first stick shift daily driver and have only been driving it since monday

[RedSiBaron]

seems confusing to me but this is my first stick shift daily driver and have only been driving it since monday

haha my best advice is before all this start by slowing down shifts and timing them, dont worry about rev matching or double clutching your downshifts...start by adding the rev matching, its just a tiny blip up about 1k rpms, and then when you get that down add double clutching

...slamming through gears is sloppy...

[RHCP0801]

so when slowing down to turn rev it up say from 2k to 3k and than downshift?

[RedSiBaron]

so when slowing down to turn rev it up say from 2k to 3k and than downshift?

you want it to be a fluid motion, matching the revs helps the transmission get into gear...so ease it in nice when your revs hit the sweet spot...the higher the rpms the more "notchy" rev matching is...

ive gotten to the point i can rev match and slide the gears in without the clutch, I HIGHLY SUGGEST that you DO NOT DO THAT...its taken 7 years of rev matching and my clutch pedal linkage breaking at a weld on my old car to learn this (i had to drive the car home 50 miles without the clutch, learned a lot that day) and i dont really do it except when im at really low revs and like once every few months......

[L337Ep3]

Alright, I've gotten pretty good at heel toeing and do it most of the time I downshift.

But can someone please clarify double clutching for me. What is the point of taking your foot off the clutch when you go into neutral, why don't you just keep the clutch pedal depressed and rev match it? eh someone please clarify.

[RHCP0801]

hmm ill try it tomorrow i guess like around my house so i dont look stupid when i mess up lol

[RedSiBaron]

Alright, I've gotten pretty good at heel toeing and do it most of the time I downshift.

But can someone please clarify double clutching for me. What is the point of taking your foot off the clutch when you go into neutral, why don't you just keep the clutch pedal depressed and rev match it? eh someone please clarify.

its a technique that takes load off the syncros...its REQUIRED in an unsynchronized transmission...like in a race gearbox...

it assists in matching rotational speed of the input shaft being driven off of the engine to the speed of the gear you are selecting which would be directly connected to the wheels through the axles

does that help?



on that note my father was telling me back in the day that in his first race with his formula ford he only revved matched and didnt double clutch and by the end of the race the transmission was frozen and he couldnt get it into gear...had to rebuild it with all new internals...said he never made that stupid mistake again haha

[Karma]

so, after you "blip" the throttle and are in the next lower gear, you just release the clutch?

i've tried heel-n-toe before, but it's a little sloppy and slow.

[MugsyTheGr8]

i have to find a parking lot or something where i can get better. i dont feel safe doing it on the street. musashi was talking about a cheater plate or something thats, supposed to make heel toe downshifting easier.

[RedSiBaron]

so, after you "blip" the throttle and are in the next lower gear, you just release the clutch?

i've tried heel-n-toe before, but it's a little sloppy and slow.

it takes a lot of practice man youll get it, you shift just like normal, but while you are sliding through neutral and into the lower gear just give that gas a "blip"...one of the trickiest parts is not changing the brake position when you blip the throttle, its real easy to push harder or let off the brakes


i have to find a parking lot or something where i can get better. i dont feel safe doing it on the street. musashi was talking about a cheater plate or something thats, supposed to make heel toe downshifting easier.

yah its cuz the stock pedals on the ep are just barely too far apart, so you have to roll your foot more than use your heel...if that center console tunnel wasnt in the way you could just rotate your foot sideways and use your heel on the gas, i was able to do that quick as hell on my 86si, cuz those were too far apart that i couldnt roll my foot onto the gas from the brake easily...on the ep, you physically cant put your foot sideways, well, unless you have tiny feet...

[benkieboy]

i tried doing it today. it's a bit hard! i find it hard to get out of the brakes without getting out of the gas too.

ok here's what i understand

3rd gear on 2000 rpm
then push clutch, brakes and gas ("blip" gas to get to 3000 rpm)
shift to 2nd gear
release clutch and at the same time floor the gas

my question is how do i get off the brakes without getting off the gas too? i find it hard to release the brakes without releasing the gas too.

or do i heel-toe then foot off (gas and brakes) then floor the gas?

[MugsyTheGr8]

i tried doing it today. it's a bit hard! i find it hard to get out of the brakes without getting out of the gas too.

ok here's what i understand

3rd gear on 2000 rpm
then push clutch, brakes and gas ("blip" gas to get to 3000 rpm)
shift to 2nd gear
release clutch and at the same time floor the gas

my question is how do i get off the brakes without getting off the gas too? i find it hard to release the brakes without releasing the gas too.

or do i heel-toe then foot off (gas and brakes) then floor the gas?

your not supposed to let off the brakes. the point of heel toe is to constantly apply the brakes while blipping the throttle to revmatch for the lower gear.

[RedSiBaron]

your not supposed to let off the brakes. the point of heel toe is to constantly apply the brakes while blipping the throttle to revmatch for the lower gear.

exactly, if you were to downshift while not under braking, you should still blip the throttle to downshift...heel toeing allows you to STILL blip the throttle while under braking

[benkieboy]

what i meant was when i am about to go forward (releasing brakes) i tend to release the gas too then flooring it. so what happens is when i am done rev-matching then ready to step on it, i tend to lift my foot to let go of the gas too. so the rev goes down again. sorry if i werent so clear.

[RedSiBaron]

what i meant was when i am about to go forward (releasing brakes) i tend to release the gas too then flooring it. so what happens is when i am done rev-matching then ready to step on it, i tend to lift my foot to let go of the gas too. so the rev goes down again. sorry if i werent so clear.

you arent supposed to rev match on upshifts...if im reading correctly that what you are talking about...unless you are reffering to braking going into a corner, but your problem is you need to rev it as youre easing it into gear, and as its going into gear you need to already be easing out of the clutch, while the clutch is coming out you need to be easing your foot into the gas...there should be no stomping of the gas...

it sounds like you also need to get used to just hte motion of heel toeing...it takes a lot of practice...

[benkieboy]

oh yeah i was tallking about entering corners! sorry wasnt clear again! i just started autocrossing and i am new the the heel and toe thing. my last auto-x i had a problem picking up speed from a chicane since i braked and stayed on gear so i guess downshifting would do the trick. but i really need to rev-match while braking and floor it to pickup the speed on the straight.

[epcivicboy08]

does anyone have the issue of their gas pedal being lower than the brake pedal? i think thats the reason why i'm having trouble doing heel-toe. i was able to do it with relative ease on my Evo and the brake and gas pedal were pretty much parallel to each other. not sure if perhaps my gas pedal needs to be adjusted.

but so far i can heel-toe from 5th to 4th to 3rd. yay for me! :mwink:

[benkieboy]

wow! why replace the evo with an ep3? but not a bad choice. yeah i guess that's my problem too. i find it hard to simultaneously hit them both then hit the gas without lifting both

[RedSiBaron]

oh yeah i was tallking about entering corners! sorry wasnt clear again! i just started autocrossing and i am new the the heel and toe thing. my last auto-x i had a problem picking up speed from a chicane since i braked and stayed on gear so i guess downshifting would do the trick. but i really need to rev-match while braking and floor it to pickup the speed on the straight.

ahh yes...see it will help you get the gear in quicker and more smoothly, but you yourself have to be quick and smooth too...just keep practicing...do what musty suggested to me, goto a parkinglot and practice those 90 degree type corners and practice braking real late and hard and then that turn in for hte corner...but you may also want to practice trailbraking (left foot braking) for some corners in autox, dont ask me about that, im not an autoxer so i dont know how to do that...and i dont see a point to left foot braking in a manual car outside of autox and rally...please people dont get into an argument about that here, if you want to talk about trailbraking start a new thread...ill be glad to discuss it there...


does anyone have the issue of their gas pedal being lower than the brake pedal? i think thats the reason why i'm having trouble doing heel-toe. i was able to do it with relative ease on my Evo and the brake and gas pedal were pretty much parallel to each other. not sure if perhaps my gas pedal needs to be adjusted.

but so far i can heel-toe from 5th to 4th to 3rd. yay for me! :mwink:

as for the pedal position, it sucks, but its not too bad, with my upgraded brakes when im under braking its just the right height...

your one option would possibly be to adjust the pedal position though ive never played iwht that on the ep...OR take off the pedal and heat it and bend it to the desired position :mwink:

[MugsyTheGr8]

i think whenever i get my pedal set, ill offset the gas and brake so they are a little closer to each other.

[.colin]

i rev match on all my downshifts but i don't brake and downshift at the same.

[humpmasterflex]

People brake on turns???

I just down shift into second and slowly let off the clutch.... that slows the car down pretty steadily, then I let go of clutch cpmpletely.... it take me through the turn... and then I accelerate. That seems like so much work for no apparent reason.

Down shift before the turn, and slam the pedal on at the apex and your set!

[.colin]

People brake on turns???

I just down shift into second and slowly let off the clutch.... that slows the car down pretty steadily, then I let go of clutch cpmpletely.... it take me through the turn... and then I accelerate. That seems like so much work for no apparent reason.

Down shift before the turn, and slam the pedal on at the apex and your set!

when you go into the turn youre going to downshift and brake at the same time. watch the best motoring videos.

[MugsyTheGr8]

i rev match on all my downshifts but i don't brake and downshift at the same.

thats what i do right now, but when i start auto-x that wont be enough.

[cow]

five star thread

great one Mugs

[MugsyTheGr8]

People brake on turns???

I just down shift into second and slowly let off the clutch.... that slows the car down pretty steadily, then I let go of clutch cpmpletely.... it take me through the turn... and then I accelerate. That seems like so much work for no apparent reason.

Down shift before the turn, and slam the pedal on at the apex and your set!

im guessing you didnt read the article

[MugsyTheGr8]

five star thread

great one Mugs

thank you, sir.

[Danman281]

I do this all by habit now, its awesome. When you rev match just right, the clutch falls in soooo smoothly

[benkieboy]

People brake on turns???

I just down shift into second and slowly let off the clutch.... that slows the car down pretty steadily, then I let go of clutch cpmpletely.... it take me through the turn... and then I accelerate. That seems like so much work for no apparent reason.

Down shift before the turn, and slam the pedal on at the apex and your set!

i think if it's not possible to just downshift without rev-matching since your speed is for a high rev. if you dont rev-match, gear would not go in.

and correct me if i am wrong but i guess you have to keep the tire spinning to keep the traction hence the heel-toe. it keeps the momentum alive inspite of the turn.

[RedSiBaron]

i think whenever i get my pedal set, ill offset the gas and brake so they are a little closer to each other.

awesome, post up pics when you modify that shit!!


i rev match on all my downshifts but i don't brake and downshift at the same.

well, you would downshift while braking when you come into a corner deep and late brake, so youd be accelerating up to the corner and you wait wait wait until you hit the braking zone, brake in hard and while setting into the corner downshift through to the proper gear for the corner, take your set then get into the throttle at the earliest time to make the corner and zoom your away...


thank you, sir.

hey i helped :mfrown:

haha but seriously, great post mugsy sir...i havnt had such a good time in a thread in a while

[MugsyTheGr8]

hey i helped :mfrown:

haha but seriously, great post mugsy sir...i havnt had such a good time in a thread in a while

your very knowledgeable on the subject. i learned just as much from your post as i did from the edmunds article

[MugsyTheGr8]

gary sheehan making it look easy
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Heel-Toe-Double-Clutching_57431.htm

another vid of heel toe in practice
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Heeltoe-demo_8398.htm

[RedSiBaron]

haha well all this started the day i learned to drive stick...my father took me out in my 86si after i finished getting it on the road at 15 and after i started doing pretty well that first day he stopped and he took over, took me through a section of about 12 corners in a road through some hills near our house, and then has me look at his left foot...he wasnt using hte clutch...so he then proceeded to explaining ALL OF THIS...so i just practiced it and freaked him out one day when i think i was 17 that i had apparently been double clutching and rev matching for over a year haha...

its been a blast practicing it over hte years, couldnt get my friend to try and learn it in his e36 m-technic...he couldnt shift for shit...or drive for shit...beat him off the line with the ep consistently (every time) with just bridgestone potenza g009s and koni shocks and tein springs, i may have had my intake dont remember...but that was it...

[benkieboy]

great story! very inspiring! makes me wanna master heel-toeing. i'll practice this tomorrow the whole day!

[Godhand]

...on the ep, you physically cant put your foot sideways, well, unless you have tiny feet...

This is my first manual, so I learned to heel-toe with it and found it easy to have my foot sideways, and I wear 13s. But then again, the only stick I've driven since then is my friend's mr2.

One reason why I wanted a Civic was for left-foot breaking. I consider that a major skill and practice it alot. It's like fine-tuning your drifting skills in a 240sx. With enough skill, a FWD can keep up.

[RedSiBaron]

This is my first manual, so I learned to heel-toe with it and found it easy to have my foot sideways, and I wear 13s. But then again, the only stick I've driven since then is my friend's mr2.

One reason why I wanted a Civic was for left-foot breaking. I consider that a major skill and practice it alot. It's like fine-tuning your drifting skills in a 240sx. With enough skill, a FWD can keep up.

haha good plan, i have to force myself to start practicing left foot breaking but i just havnt the heart to start...haha

but yah you can get your foot sideways, but you cant put it AS sideways...but it all doesnt matter as long as you can get that blip...

[musashi1219]

I am no expert but I have some options for you guys

1. Don't look for exact revs when you are adding throttle before the downshift. Keep your eyes off of the tach and on the road. Do it by sound. I add a BIG rev giving me plenty of time to make sure I have everything the way I want it. In vettes I go with a quick blip to 6.5k and in the honda I am usually a thousand higher than that. Again all this is to give me plenty of time to get everything done.

2. Take the car out of gear... PAUSE in neutral ... enter new gear. if the car jumps you let off too soon. if it lags you let off too slow

3. Practice in a safe area in a straight line. Improper downshifting in a corner can cause you to spin out and kill yourself or others. It might take you days and you should really do it with someone who actually knows what they are doing. Practicing it incorrectly will build bad habits that will make it twice as hard for you to learn the correct way.



A lot of you guys might say that pausing in neutral is slower than going straight from one gear to another... the pause gives you options for the only two mistakes you can make...
mistake one I didnt add enough throttle and if I release the clutch the car is going to become unbalanced

mistake two I put the car in the wrong gear and I blew up my tranny because I did not want to use the hundredth of a second to pause and SELECT my gear.

[RedSiBaron]

I am no expert but I have some options for you guys

1. Don't look for exact revs when you are adding throttle before the downshift. Keep your eyes off of the tach and on the road. Do it by sound. I add a BIG rev giving me plenty of time to make sure I have everything the way I want it. In vettes I go with a quick blip to 6.5k and in the honda I am usually a thousand higher than that. Again all this is to give me plenty of time to get everything done.

2. Take the car out of gear... PAUSE in neutral ... enter new gear. if the car jumps you let off too soon. if it lags you let off too slow

3. Practice in a safe area in a straight line. Improper downshifting in a corner can cause you to spin out and kill yourself or others. It might take you days and you should really do it with someone who actually knows what they are doing. Practicing it incorrectly will build bad habits that will make it twice as hard for you to learn the correct way.



A lot of you guys might say that pausing in neutral is slower than going straight from one gear to another... the pause gives you options for the only two mistakes you can make...
mistake one I didnt add enough throttle and if I release the clutch the car is going to become unbalanced

mistake two I put the car in the wrong gear and I blew up my tranny because I did not want to use the hundredth of a second to pause and SELECT my gear.

ooooo excellent points...im terrible at hitting on fine points like this:mwink::mbiggrin:

[musashi1219]

well, you would downshift while braking when you come into a corner deep and late brake, so youd be accelerating up to the corner and you wait wait wait until you hit the braking zone, brake in hard and while setting into the corner downshift through to the proper gear for the corner, take your set then get into the throttle at the earliest time to make the corner and zoom your away...

are you sure you want to teach these guys to bury the car into a corner?

I am pretty sure that any racecar driver will tell you that you never bury a car into a corner unless making an overly aggressive pass. You want to keep the car balanced and banging the brakes is not going to keep the car balanced.
Yes you need to brake in the braking zone but you are no and you make it sound like the downshift should always be done before the corner. Yes the SAFEST place for the downshift is before the turn but what about increasing radius turns or a very long sweepers? The FASTER way is the downshift in the turn but this is not safe unless you are VERY proficient with heel toe.

I have been sent ride several times by "experts" doing this in a sweeper.


btw Red, don't take this as an attack. I am just one of those guys that thinks if you give someone advice it should be the best possible advice and most importantly CORRECT.

[musashi1219]

oh one more thing... everyone is always in a rush to get into gear... remember a blown trans is slower than the next guy who took his time and selected the correct gear.



Off I go... negotiating terms on teaching the ZR-1 introductory class for GM

[RedSiBaron]

are you sure you want to teach these guys to bury the car into a corner?

I am pretty sure that any racecar driver will tell you that you never bury a car into a corner unless making an overly aggressive pass. You want to keep the car balanced and banging the brakes is not going to keep the car balanced.
Yes you need to brake in the braking zone but you are no and you make it sound like the downshift should always be done before the corner. Yes the SAFEST place for the downshift is before the turn but what about increasing radius turns or a very long sweepers? The FASTER way is the downshift in the turn but this is not safe unless you are VERY proficient with heel toe.

I have been sent ride several times by "experts" doing this in a sweeper.


btw Red, don't take this as an attack. I am just one of those guys that thinks if you give someone advice it should be the best possible advice and most importantly CORRECT.

oh im a designer im used to tough love haha

i think we really are on the same page...i have a lot of trouble explaining this shit, its too engrained in my skull...no i was not telling them to totally bury it, or to bang the brakes, balance, finesse and smooth cornering is the only way to drive...and personally i was taught in both kart school and by my father (who is an ex formula ford midwest scca champion) to late brake, if i dont need to late brake im not going to, but ive always been fast as fuck wheel to wheel when late braking...then again im not jumping on the brake, i roll onto it finish my braking before i take a set for the corner take my set and roll into the the throttle...im still not used to the ep after driving my 86si for so long...my 86 was far faster in the corners and wouldnt understeer as bad...:noidea:...as for shifting in the corner, these guys are new to this, so them getting all their work done before the corner is only going to help them at this point...and increasing radius corners are a whole other story

[ts ep3]

nice post im going to have to try this:hat:

[MugsyTheGr8]

oh one more thing... everyone is always in a rush to get into gear... remember a blown trans is slower than the next guy who took his time and selected the correct gear.



Off I go... negotiating terms on teaching the ZR-1 introductory class for GM

do you have anymore info on the cheater plates you were talking about in another thread? i have the basic idea in my head, but if you have done it or have pics of it, it would help alot.

[musashi1219]

do you have anymore info on the cheater plates you were talking about in another thread? i have the basic idea in my head, but if you have done it or have pics of it, it would help alot.
http://www.mz3.net/articles/images/189-heel.jpg

this is a terrible example but look at how the bottom of the pedal kicks out a bit.

You need to move your foot less to hit the gas. The ones we have on some of the vettes are a little bit different. They arent as flashy but they work very well.

I like the pedals to start someone off with but I prefer that everyone i teach gets to be proficient with standard pedals.


Oh and one tip I forgot


NEVER COMPROMISE YOUR POSITION ON THE BRAKE PEDAL for a throttle blip. Hitting a wall is slower than doing a standard downshift.

[robertelegal]

Alright, I've gotten pretty good at heel toeing and do it most of the time I downshift.

But can someone please clarify double clutching for me. What is the point of taking your foot off the clutch when you go into neutral, why don't you just keep the clutch pedal depressed and rev match it? eh someone please clarify.

If you want to hear some good double clutching...watch the famous chase scene from Bullitt. Steve McQueen is double clutching his Mustang...it sounds like music.

[MugsyTheGr8]

http://www.mz3.net/articles/images/189-heel.jpg

NEVER COMPROMISE YOUR POSITION ON THE BRAKE PEDAL for a throttle blip. Hitting a wall is slower than doing a standard downshift.

thats the problem im having now, and is part of why i feel uncomfortable doing it on the street. idk if something is wrong with my feet or if the ep pedal layout makes it hard to do. others don't seem to have a problem with it so ill just keep practicing and looking at pedal sets to help me get better at it.

[musashi1219]

mugsy, are you going to the BBQ? If you are and you bring your car I will show you how to do it assuming I go. Idk what kind of shoes you wear but the wider the better. I use piloti driving shoes in cars where the pedals are far apart. In cars with closer pedals like vettes I can use any shoe.

Once you learn how to properly do it you will be amazed at how easy it is. Its easy to learn hard to master

[MugsyTheGr8]

mugsy, are you going to the BBQ? If you are and you bring your car I will show you how to do it assuming I go. Idk what kind of shoes you wear but the wider the better. I use piloti driving shoes in cars where the pedals are far apart. In cars with closer pedals like vettes I can use any shoe.

Once you learn how to properly do it you will be amazed at how easy it is. Its easy to learn hard to master

i want to go, im supposed to be getting a ride with a fellow hatcher. i wear a size 10 but my feet aren't too wide. rite now i have a pair of addidas driving shoes.

[benkieboy]

i tried doing it on the scca autocross event yesterday but none of the turns seemed to need downshifting. still i tried on one turn but i guess i slammed on the brakes too hard and lost my traction. (and failed to shift)

[musashi1219]

i want to go, im supposed to be getting a ride with a fellow hatcher. i wear a size 10 but my feet aren't too wide. rite now i have a pair of addidas driving shoes.
yeah those things are narrow. They are more like cart shoes. You see the shoes race car drivers use are narrow because the pedals are so close together. Look at the pedal placement in a ferrari and then look at the pedals in an impala. You can heel toe in any shoe and I am sure you have seen videos of people doing so, but the wider shoe just makes it a little easier

i tried doing it on the scca autocross event yesterday but none of the turns seemed to need downshifting. still i tried on one turn but i guess i slammed on the brakes too hard and lost my traction. (and failed to shift)

If you dont need to do a downshift to stay in the powerband then do not use one. It is wasting time/effort and leaves you to make a mis shift

the second part of your reply... um that is exactly why you MASTER it in a straight line. I was following a vette down a front stretch and we enter turn one at about 110 and bleed off speed to about 90 and then jsut past the center of the turn you do a 4 3 downshift... the car in front of me did a small blurp on the throttle for his heel toe. so when he let off the clutch all the weight transferred to the front wheels and he spun. I was already in third and back on the power when his passenger door was next to my drivers mirror

improper heel toe in a turn is the fastest way to get a panoramic view of the track!

[RedSiBaron]

yeah those things are narrow. They are more like cart shoes. You see the shoes race car drivers use are narrow because the pedals are so close together. Look at the pedal placement in a ferrari and then look at the pedals in an impala. You can heel toe in any shoe and I am sure you have seen videos of people doing so, but the wider shoe just makes it a little easier


If you dont need to do a downshift to stay in the powerband then do not use one. It is wasting time/effort and leaves you to make a mis shift

the second part of your reply... um that is exactly why you MASTER it in a straight line. I was following a vette down a front stretch and we enter turn one at about 110 and bleed off speed to about 90 and then jsut past the center of the turn you do a 4 3 downshift... the car in front of me did a small blurp on the throttle for his heel toe. so when he let off the clutch all the weight transferred to the front wheels and he spun. I was already in third and back on the power when his passenger door was next to my drivers mirror

improper heel toe in a turn is the fastest way to get a panoramic view of the track!

ROFL...great point...more of this guys race craft coming through :mwink:

[alex_chung_lee]

at first when i started... i twisted my hole leg so I am more able to get my foot on both pedels.... it made it easier later on with practice to heel-toe

[EPSU3]

my dad taught me to do this while driving our company's dump and bucket trucks. also useful when stopped on a steep hill in a very large heavy truck with a crap clutch.

[RedSiBaron]

my dad taught me to do this while driving our company's dump and bucket trucks. also useful when stopped on a steep hill in a very large heavy truck with a crap clutch.

werd to that!!

[benkieboy]

yeah those things are narrow. They are more like cart shoes. You see the shoes race car drivers use are narrow because the pedals are so close together. Look at the pedal placement in a ferrari and then look at the pedals in an impala. You can heel toe in any shoe and I am sure you have seen videos of people doing so, but the wider shoe just makes it a little easier


If you dont need to do a downshift to stay in the powerband then do not use one. It is wasting time/effort and leaves you to make a mis shift

the second part of your reply... um that is exactly why you MASTER it in a straight line. I was following a vette down a front stretch and we enter turn one at about 110 and bleed off speed to about 90 and then jsut past the center of the turn you do a 4 3 downshift... the car in front of me did a small blurp on the throttle for his heel toe. so when he let off the clutch all the weight transferred to the front wheels and he spun. I was already in third and back on the power when his passenger door was next to my drivers mirror

improper heel toe in a turn is the fastest way to get a panoramic view of the track!

yeah im practicing it on a straight line. but the SCCA was a practice event so why not try it on a turn. im quite used to doing it on a straight line. if i get enough runs, i'll try it again next week. heck i wont learn if i wont try!

[!@#$%]

To get the true effect of heel-toe, you have to really know exactly what rpm is at what speed in every gear.

I heel toe like the japanese pros hitting the gas pedal with the actual heel. I place the brake lower on my foot near the middle so that I don't have to crank my leg as much. It seems easier to manipulate the amount of braking pressure when you've divided the movements to the top and bottom of the foot instead of left and right.

[FCobra94]

To get the true effect of heel-toe, you have to really know exactly what rpm is at what speed in every gear.
Yeah, it's pretty difficult unless you put a lot of time/effort into it. Plus, it's hard to keep things consistant on the street. Peeps would obviously have an easier time at least keeping it consistant if they had a track to practice on.

The easiest method I've found for rev-match/downshifting is going from 4th to 3rd @ right around 40 mph. It's a relatively slow vehicle and engine speed to try it at and theres less of a chance that you'll overshoot the RPM or bog the motor down if you take too long to pull it off.

As you are downshifting, stab the gas pedal quickly, only for a split second, and release the clutch swiftly almost immediatly afterwards and that's usually all it takes. It gets a bit trickier with higher engine speeds and lower gears, which is why I recommend starting there.

The thing to remember is to keep everything flowing in one fluid motion. If you start thinking about it and start doing the whole "Step 1....Step 2. What RPM's am I at?" thing in your head, it's already too late.

[RedSiBaron]

To get the true effect of heel-toe, you have to really know exactly what rpm is at what speed in every gear.

I heel toe like the japanese pros hitting the gas pedal with the actual heel. I place the brake lower on my foot near the middle so that I don't have to crank my leg as much. It seems easier to manipulate the amount of braking pressure when you've divided the movements to the top and bottom of the foot instead of left and right.

haha i did that method in my 86si and i loved it, something about it is a lot more enjoyable than just rolling your foot...i dont like doing it that ^^^ way in the ep, dealing with teh center console just isnt fun imo...but ya i agree, gotta know exactly where you are shifting, its a learning experience with every car...but very worthwhile to practice...

[mormonboy]

i learned how to downshift from watching best motoring videos.

i downshift everyday, and when i don't, i feel like im not controlling the car. its weird.

but downshifting is indeed useful, and allows you to keep the car undercontrol and in

gear at all times.

and double-clutching is a fuckin riceboy move. this isn't the fast and furious. double clutching on modern cars is completely unecessary, as that is what the "synchro" is for. unless you drive a semi-truck as a daily, theres no need to double clutch. quit watching to much fast n furious.

[RedSiBaron]

i learned how to downshift from watching best motoring videos.

i downshift everyday, and when i don't, i feel like im not controlling the car. its weird.

but downshifting is indeed useful, and allows you to keep the car undercontrol and in

gear at all times.

and double-clutching is a fuckin riceboy move. this isn't the fast and furious. double clutching on modern cars is completely unecessary, as that is what the "synchro" is for. unless you drive a semi-truck as a daily, theres no need to double clutch. quit watching to much fast n furious.

uhh...we are talking about rev matching not downshifting...

and in f&f they made the mistake of referancing "double clutching" for upshifts, WRONG...its for downshifting


double clutching is not a riceboy move, it will further help take load off your transmission and prolong its life...it takes load off of your clutch plate and the throwout bearing, it also further helps match the rotational speed of the input shaft to the gear being selected...synchros do that, but if you bypass them through doubleclutching then it will prolong their life as well...

[MugsyTheGr8]

uhh...we are talking about rev matching not downshifting...

and in f&f they made the mistake of referancing "double clutching" for upshifts, WRONG...its for downshifting


double clutching is not a riceboy move, it will further help take load off your transmission and prolong its life...it takes load off of your clutch plate and the throwout bearing, it also further helps match the rotational speed of the input shaft to the gear being selected...synchros do that, but if you bypass them through doubleclutching then it will prolong their life as well...

roffle

[ryko]

very enjoyable right up. i cant do this. lol

[musashi1219]

I am not saying that you should take this as the gospel truth but it has been my knowledge that there is no need for double clutching with modern transmissions. I have Severn corvettes with over 20k TRACK miles on them and only one has needed a clutch replacements. When I say track I mean track driving all out all the time. The minority of these people can barely drive manual so I promise you they are not double clutching.

[MugsyTheGr8]

first track event today and i didnt get a chance to try it out :mfrown:

[MEAN IRISH GUY]

i just shift into 5th right away. 1-4 are over rated:pray2:

[Trimix]

I think for people who are new to heel-and-toe, it's probably better to learn how to down a simple rev-match first before doing the h-and-t stuff, which is a bit more involving and complicated for newbies.

[QUEEN]

I have been trying to learn how to heel-toe for the past year since I have mastered rev matching. Because I am unfortunate of having small size 7 (in womens) feet, I can't accomplished this skill yet. My feet fit perfectly inbetween the brake and gas gap. Sad sad days!

[Trimix]

I have been trying to learn how to heel-toe for the past year since I have mastered rev matching. Because I am unfortunate of having small size 7 (in womens) feet, I can't accomplished this skill yet. My feet fit perfectly inbetween the brake and gas gap. Sad sad days!

I think with smaller feet it might be easier to do heel-and-toe. Length shouldn't be an issue because the brake and gas pedals aren't very far apart. You can easily do the heel-and-toe move rather than the "toe-roll" move.

[RedSiBaron]

I am not saying that you should take this as the gospel truth but it has been my knowledge that there is no need for double clutching with modern transmissions. I have Severn corvettes with over 20k TRACK miles on them and only one has needed a clutch replacements. When I say track I mean track driving all out all the time. The minority of these people can barely drive manual so I promise you they are not double clutching.

Yah i agree, its not needed, but it definitely cant hurt...

for me its more so a habit built up after driving a car that had its transmission trashed by a previous owner, so it would grind without double clutching and revmatching...


I have been trying to learn how to heel-toe for the past year since I have mastered rev matching. Because I am unfortunate of having small size 7 (in womens) feet, I can't accomplished this skill yet. My feet fit perfectly inbetween the brake and gas gap. Sad sad days!

my suggest would be to either rotate your foot more and tap the gas with your heel more, or make a cheater plate like people were talking about to cheat the throttle closer to the brake...or modify the throttle arm and rebend it to be closer, but im not entirely sure how that would mess with the geometry...

[MugsyTheGr8]

I think for people who are new to heel-and-toe, it's probably better to learn how to down a simple rev-match first before doing the h-and-t stuff, which is a bit more involving and complicated for newbies.

we are assuming you already know how to do that. thats why i made this thread.

[oogy-boogy]

Cleaned...

[RedSiBaron]

They are pretty far apart for my foot situation :frown::pout:

did you bother to read what i posted just for YOU, i gave you a solution to your problem, and it was based on what other people have been saying in this thread since like page 2 or 3...

[QUEEN]

did you bother to read what i posted just for YOU, i gave you a solution to your problem, and it was based on what other people have been saying in this thread since like page 2 or 3...


Uh yeah. I dont want to get cheater pedals or worse, adjust my pedals. Im working on the technique.

[jjr007]

Uh yeah. I dont want to get cheater pedals or worse, adjust my pedals. Im working on the technique.

Get pedal covers like these, they are a little wider than stock, and look good at the same time. These are the ones that I have.
http://www.carbeyondstore.com/admin/images/products/204-9999-215SR.jpg

[RedSiBaron]

Uh yeah. I dont want to get cheater pedals or worse, adjust my pedals. Im working on the technique.

ok, shoulda said that, unless i missed it, then :mconfused:

if you can put your foot totally sideways and reach great, but it shouldnt need to be a stretch, if you are barely making this work, then its not going to be a fast technique for you, so you'll have to compensate somehow...if you want NICE quality pedals for cheap look into the strutking pedals, ive heard really good things, or look into the mugen sport pedal kit, but those cost a lot more


Get pedal covers like these, they are a little wider than stock, and look good at the same time. These are the ones that I have.
http://www.carbeyondstore.com/admin/images/products/204-9999-215SR.jpg

[blkep3man]

this is a coolz Technique, i used to work with a guy that did mountain runs with his 91 240sx fastback, he tought me how to do it. I do it everyday now

i heard its kills ur tranny faster and its better to throw it in neutral rather then heel toe.

[pjnoto]

badass thread! now i can drive like Tsuchiya! minus the ae86 of course :mtongue:

[zzfinaldropzz]

heel toe ftw!!!.. i always do it even to a dead stop. or to show off to people(ricer) but w/e i like it. and its a must know if your goin to track or race ur car

[v1c10us]

my dad tought be about this when i was like 6 because he used to drive semi trucks. I can only imagine how bitchy the clutches are on those things, so a long story short, almost every truck driver just rev matches and pops it in.
I double clutch every time i downshift, never on upshifts.
and I only heel toe if I'm in a really good mood or pumped up about driving somewhere.

[Elise98]

Since the gas pedal is so far back the only time I can successfully heel and toe is when I'm pressing hard on the brakes, which usually happens on the track. It was really usefull on the track but for daily driving since I'm not pressing so hard on the brakes I get a little sloppy.
I just got some Sparco pedals, and since I kept the stock gas pedal rubber under the sparco pedal it brought the gas pedal up a little bit. It should help a little bit.

[v1c10us]

which sparco pedals? I've got the sparco grips, love em.

[MugsyTheGr8]

bumping my old thread.looking for a set of cheap pedals to help out on heel toe. cheap for me would be $30 or under. just looking for somthing that has a significantly wider than stock gas pedal so i can adjust the position over to the left. so far i have found these (http://www.tmtuning.com/HOME/catalog/product_detail.php?default_product=571) on vw site i liked to go to, but i cant find there dimensions.

[RedSiBaron]

bumping my old thread.looking for a set of cheap pedals to help out on heel toe. cheap for me would be $30 or under. just looking for somthing that has a significantly wider than stock gas pedal so i can adjust the position over to the left. so far i have found these (http://www.tmtuning.com/HOME/catalog/product_detail.php?default_product=571) on vw site i liked to go to, but i cant find there dimensions.

cut some steel and rivet it on? :mangel:

[earliozz]

If you know the single-clutch downshift. The heel-toe downshift is basically that with the operation of the brake pedal added to the equation.

[A-Phi-Si]

:thumbu:

[MugsyTheGr8]

cut some steel and rivet it on? :mangel:

that would be ideal, but i don't have access to the necessary tools. i just hate seeing really simple pedal designs being sold for $50 plus. i guess i will just have to pony up in the end and spend the $50, but, i just hate to spend money on something that, if i had the proper tools, i could have done myself:mfrown:

[RedSiBaron]

that would be ideal, but i don't have access to the necessary tools. i just hate seeing really simple pedal designs being sold for $50 plus. i guess i will just have to pony up in the end and spend the $50, but, i just hate to spend money on something that, if i had the proper tools, i could have done myself:mfrown:

hrrm...could could go to home depot or lowes and just rent a drill and a pop rivet tool...just an idea

even get the metal there...

do a rough cut with a hacksaw and clean it up with dremel and file

they are just to help you, no need to be pretty if you are just looking for performance...plus you can add grip tape or rubber nubs where it makes sense for nothing...prolly find both at the hardware store as well haha

[MugsyTheGr8]

hrrm...could could go to home depot or lowes and just rent a drill and a pop rivet tool...just an idea

even get the metal there...

do a rough cut with a hacksaw and clean it up with dremel and file

they are just to help you, no need to be pretty if you are just looking for performance...plus you can add grip tape or rubber nubs where it makes sense for nothing...prolly find both at the hardware store as well haha

good idea, ill look into it

[BigFrank18512]

I don't think I could ever heel toe. I wear a size 13 EEE and my feet are crammed up in there with the pedals. I can't even drive my buddy's VW because the pedals are too close together. Haha

[K20wagon]

Bringing back an old thread. But ya this is a good thing to do. I learned how to do it bout 6 months ago. Its hard at first but you get us to it after a while. I am going to test my skills so far at it in about a month. I am going to head up to VIR speedway.