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IcyDeath
05-27-2008, 06:25 PM
Never owned a lowered car until the time being. I jumped into a great deal on my EP3 and it had mods I'd of ended up doing to it myself anyways.
I know this is a long post, but I need help since I've no experience or previous non stock suspension EP riding to gauge this against.

Here is what I know it has:
1. Neuspeed Race Springs
2. Stock Shocks (inspected and said to be in good condition)
3. Camber Kit (wheels are straight on and alignment is good)
4. Front Strut Bar (no idea of brand)
5. Rear Sway Bar (no idea of brand)
6. 205/45/16 Tires

I expect harsh, I really do. But there are tiny potholes or bumps in the road that skip my radio and it feels like the car jolted pretty good, although I don't think it bottoms out. It does however beat the living crap out of the piping on my Apex'i N1 exhaust (speed bumps). Turning is mega stiff, like never before experienced there is no roll or swing this is a good thing?

When I took it to a shop that's done some work for me in the past we got it on a lift and confirmed that it is on stock shocks(dampeners, whatever) and the opinion in the shop seemed to be Honda makes great quality abuse resilient shocks and they seemed fine, not busted.

So, is it that my tires are small diameter? I am looking into 215/40/17 which should lift me up somewhat. Or do I possibly have a shock problem and should get Koni shocks or something? Someone on here has my springs on stock shocks with 215/40/17 tires and a body kit and it doesn't look like it would be so bad.

Ahhhh! Help!

talonXracer
05-27-2008, 06:28 PM
Replace the struts and springs with a matched set and the ride should improve greatly. A taller sidewalled tire would also improve the ride. And if you are going with a 17" wheel then you want either a 215-225/45/17

IcyDeath
05-27-2008, 06:30 PM
Replace the struts and springs with a matched set and the ride should improve greatly.

By matched set you mean full coilovers? I don't really wanna drop 1.5grand. Or does Eibach/Neuspeed make something like what you are referring to seperatly?

clujalolo
05-27-2008, 07:22 PM
By matched set you mean full coilovers? I don't really wanna drop 1.5grand. Or does Eibach/Neuspeed make something like what you are referring to seperatly?

full coilover set is not 1.5g, UNLESS you are getting a full race suspension, they tend to go for 1000. But what talon was talking about was to just get like tokito (sp) shocks and some springs like progress. ihave the neuspeed springs and they are garbage. they make a lot of noise and the ride is REALLY bad, its not even stiff its just sloppy. but thats a year on my stock shocks. so they are pretty much gone. But you can get a tokico shocks new for about 500 and some springs for im guessing 200>?? the ride will be really good, a full coilover set will make your car really stiff unless you are able to adjust it......you can get tokico d-spec shocks which go for i saw 549.99 and these are adjustable to make the ride stiff or soft. im probably confusing you right now. i might be wrong on some stuff but someone will correct me.

Karma
05-27-2008, 07:24 PM
i think what he means by 'matched set' is to pair up spring and shocks with similar (?) spring/dampening rates.

a decent coilover would run roughly $900-1100.

opinion:
coilovers: progress, buddy club (heard good reviews)
springs/struts: eibach+bilstein, koni.

HFP/mugen ss

i just think the ep is slightly rough, regardless of suspension.

RHCP0801
05-27-2008, 07:32 PM
neuspeed race springs on stock shocks is a bad combo, i would definatley upgrade to tokico blues or konis and get some different springs or coilovers if you want. You said you have 16" wheels but you want 17" tires? are you getting different wheels? 215 45 17 or 225 45 17 should give you better comfort than what you have now

IcyDeath
05-27-2008, 11:07 PM
Thanks guys for the info. I kinda figured Neuspeed springs were crap and/or a bad idea on stock shocks. I prob. won't go coilover since after adjusting the ride height, you typically need to re-align your car.


You said you have 16" wheels but you want 17" tires? are you getting different wheels? 215 45 17 or 225 45 17 should give you better comfort than what you have now

Yes, larger wheels. 215/45/17 my speedo will only be 1% off then, not like nearly 7-8% and the ride would be better, nice.

v1c10us
05-27-2008, 11:13 PM
as far as the ride quality goes, neuspeeds are softer than stock, the stifness is because the struts/shocks/dampeners/whatever are compressed. Get some proper shocks and it will be softer than stock, get adjustable ones and you can make it what ever you want.
The tires are quite thin which will make it quite jarring.

ep_hatcher_510
05-28-2008, 03:02 AM
Get rid of the nuespeed springs, get some better ones.
Get better dampers, dspecs, konis..etc Don't matter if your stock ones are still good or bad and Don't get the Tokico blues, not worth it for they are basically stock replacements.
Get fatter tires, 205/50/16, 215/45/17.

the other option will be just get a full set of coils, some with lower spring rates don't ride as rough as some people think and some have the tie rod angle corrections so thats something to look into also which should make steering a bit easier.

talonXracer
05-28-2008, 06:09 AM
Thanks guys for the info. I kinda figured Neuspeed springs were crap and/or a bad idea on stock shocks. I prob. won't go coilover since after adjusting the ride height, you typically need to re-align your car.



Yes, larger wheels. 215/45/17 my speedo will only be 1% off then, not like nearly 7-8% and the ride would be better, nice.


The EP3's VSS and gauge cluster is spec'd the same as the typeS, so the optional 225/45/17's will work fine. My speedo is spot-on with 225/45/17's.

FCobra94
05-28-2008, 08:02 AM
My speedo is spot-on with 225/45/17's.
Huh?

How is that possible when the car came stock with 195/60/15's? Going off of that alone shows over a 3% difference...

Also, how do you know that your speedo is "spot-on?" Did you compare it with a GPS reading?

IcyDeath
05-28-2008, 08:07 AM
Huh?

How is that possible when the car came stock with 195/60/15's? Going off of that alone shows over a 3% difference...

Also, how do you know that your speedo is "spot-on?" Did you compare it with a GPS reading?

Yea, I'd like to know this for sure also.

mustclime
05-28-2008, 08:46 AM
The EP3's VSS and gauge cluster is spec'd the same as the typeS, so the optional 225/45/17's will work fine. My speedo is spot-on with 225/45/17's.

sorry, you are mistaken.....stock tire size for the 02-03 ep is 195/60-15 and stock for the 04-05 is 205/55-16( a differance of almost 3/8th of a inch)
here is a little chart for keeping stock dia

year.....stock.............+1.............+2...... ...........+3
02-03...195/60-15...205/50-16...215/40-17...225/30-18
04-05...205/55-16...215/45-17...225/35-18...yea, right


you see the pattern?

there is also +zero for each size

02-03...215/55-15...225/45-16...235/35-17
04-05...225/50-16...235/40-17...245/30-18

see the pattern?
FYI, a lot of these sizes are not in production......:mfrown:

I am running 225/45-17 on a 03 ep3, that is a differance of 3/4 of a inch in dia....or abou 4-5 mph low reading on the speedo and the odometer reads about 6 miles low for every 100 miles( ie: 100 miles=106 real miles)

jtyler05si
05-28-2008, 08:50 AM
i used to work for a gps company so i got a shit load of gps at home....
my speedo is about 3.5 to 4 mph slower than the gps readings (of course averaged, because diff. units give less/more acurate speeds).
this is with stock size tires and stock rims.

so would bigger tires (225), make the error less? or even throw it above gps-speed?

mustclime
05-28-2008, 08:54 AM
i used to work for a gps company so i got a shit load of gps at home....
my speedo is about 3.5 to 4 mph slower than the gps readings (of course averaged, because diff. units give less/more acurate speeds).
this is with stock size tires and stock rims.

so would bigger tires (225), make the error less? or even throw it above gps-speed?

you have to look at the aspect ratio....thats the second number....

FCobra94
05-28-2008, 08:55 AM
so would bigger tires (225), make the error less? or even throw it above gps-speed?
http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html

Have at it.

Mechanic
05-28-2008, 09:39 AM
You are working three variables here -- tire size, springs and shocks. You can't, or shouldn't, work one without considering the others simultaneously.

Let's start with the tires. Generally speaking, the greater the distance between the ground and the bottom of the rim -- the aspect ratio of the tire, in other words -- the softer the ride. Thus, a 205/55/16 will ride better (softer) than a 205/45/16 because the sidewall is taller. Also, generally speaking, a 16" tire and wheel weighs about five pounds less than a 17" tire and wheel. Less weight is always better. No exemptions. The more a tire and rim weigh, the greater the burden on the springs and shocks. So your desire to go to a larger wheel (and corresponding tire) is at odds with your desire for a better/softer ride.

Springs. The ones you have now have a spring rate which is roughly twice that of the original equipment springs. In other words, there's damn little "give" in your springs. Stiff springs work fine on a flat surface, but as you've discovered, most roads, even those in FL, are neither flat or smooth. Changing to any less-stiff spring -- such as Eibach's Pro-kit -- will give you a much less jarring ride.

Shocks. How your mechanic was able to determine your original equipment shocks were in "good condition" by looking at them is beyond me. The only thing you can tell by looking at used shocks is whether they are leaking. You certainly can't tell whether they can effectively control the movement of the springs, particularly if the springs are rock hard to begin with.

If -- big if -- the springs you ultimately choose do not have more than a one-inch drop, you may still be able to use your original shocks, but that's unlikely. That's why others are telling you to choose a matched set. In this regard, you could try melding and matching springs and shocks (as some are suggesting), but the likelyhood you'll choose wisely is remote. IMHO, you'd be much better off choosing shocks and springs from one company (relying on one company's engineers) rather than guessing what's best based solely on what others are recommending. (What the hell do we really know?)

For example, you could choose coilovers, but they are somewhat expensive and, if you are like most people, you'll end up picking one shock setting and never changing it. So, you've wasted your money when a "good" shock/spring package would have done the same thing for half the cost.

Bottomline: Based only on what you've written above, Eibach's Prokits will give you roughly a one-inch drop and a decent ride with a 16" wheel and tire combination. If you opt for a 17" tire, you are going to introduce a completely different set of weights and tire spring-rates that you'll have to deal with. Consequently, were I you, I'd do one thing at a time: tires or suspension. Since your current springs are the paramount problem, I'd start there.

MugsyTheGr8
05-28-2008, 09:43 AM
You are working three variables here -- tire size, springs and shocks. You can't, or shouldn't, work one without considering the others simultaneously.

Let's start with the tires. Generally speaking, the greater the distance between the ground and the bottom of the rim -- the aspect ratio of the tire, in other words -- the softer the ride. Thus, a 205/55/16 will ride better (softer) than a 205/45/16 because the sidewall is taller. Also, generally speaking, a 16" tire and wheel weighs about five pounds less than a 17" tire and wheel. Less weight is always better. No exemptions. The more a tire and rim weigh, the greater the burden on the springs and shocks. So your desire to go to a larger wheel (and corresponding tire) is at odds with your desire for a better/softer ride.

Springs. The ones you have now have a spring rate which is roughly twice that of the original equipment springs. In other words, there's damn little "give" in your springs. Stiff springs work fine on a flat surface, but as you've discovered, most roads, even those in FL, are neither flat or smooth. Changing to any less-stiff spring -- such as Eibach's Pro-kit -- will give you a much less jarring ride.

Shocks. How your mechanic was able to determine your original equipment shocks were in "good condition" by looking at them is beyond me. The only thing you can tell by looking at used shocks is whether they are leaking. You certainly can't tell whether they can effectively control the movement of the springs, particularly if the springs are rock hard to begin with.

If -- big if -- the springs you ultimately choose do not have more than a one-inch drop, you may still be able to use your original shocks, but that's unlikely. That's why others are telling you to choose a matched set. In this regard, you could try melding and matching springs and shocks (as some are suggesting), but the likelyhood you'll choose wisely is remote. IMHO, you'd be much better off choosing shocks and springs from one company (relying on one company's engineers) rather than guessing what's best based solely on what others are recommending. (What the hell do we really know?)

For example, you could choose coilovers, but they are somewhat expensive and, if you are like most people, you'll end up picking one shock setting and never changing it. So, you've wasted your money when a "good" shock/spring package would have done the same thing for half the cost.

Bottomline: Based only on what you've written above, Eibach's Prokits will give you roughly a one-inch drop and a decent ride with a 16" wheel and tire combination. If you opt for a 17" tire, you are going to introduce a completely different set of weights and tire spring-rates that you'll have to deal with. Consequently, were I you, I'd do one thing at a time: tires or suspension. Since your current springs are the paramount problem, I'd start there.

excellent points. one thing wrong though is that the neuspeed springs are actually softer than stock front and rear, not twice as stiff as stock.

talonXracer
05-28-2008, 09:45 AM
Huh?

How is that possible when the car came stock with 195/60/15's? Going off of that alone shows over a 3% difference...

Also, how do you know that your speedo is "spot-on?" Did you compare it with a GPS reading?


Yea, I'd like to know this for sure also.


sorry, you are mistaken.....stock tire size for the 02-03 ep is 195/60-15 and stock for the 04-05 is 205/55-16( a differance of almost 3/8th of a inch)
here is a little chart for keeping stock dia

year.....stock.............+1.............+2...... ...........+3
02-03...195/60-15...205/50-16...215/40-17...225/30-18
04-05...205/55-16...215/45-17...225/35-18...yea, right


you see the pattern?

there is also +zero for each size

02-03...215/55-15...225/45-16...235/35-17
04-05...225/50-16...235/40-17...245/30-18

see the pattern?
FYI, a lot of these sizes are not in production......:mfrown:

I am running 225/45-17 on a 03 ep3, that is a differance of 3/4 of a inch in dia....or abou 4-5 mph low reading on the speedo and the odometer reads about 6 miles low for every 100 miles( ie: 100 miles=106 real miles)


i used to work for a gps company so i got a shit load of gps at home....
my speedo is about 3.5 to 4 mph slower than the gps readings (of course averaged, because diff. units give less/more acurate speeds).
this is with stock size tires and stock rims.

so would bigger tires (225), make the error less? or even throw it above gps-speed?




I used a GPS to verify the speed, remember that the OEM speedometer is off approx 4-7%, Honda lost a large court case over this and had to extend alot of factory warranties.

The GPS matched the readout from Kpro when the speed was held constant for the most part. I was reading maybe 2-3mph low at 70mph.

FCobra94
05-28-2008, 10:10 AM
Sounds about right. I figured it was all relative anyway given the innacuracy of the stock speedo, etc.

v1c10us
05-28-2008, 12:03 PM
you can calculate your speedometers accuracy by counting mile markers on the interstate at 60mph.
assume that 10 of them should take 10 minutes exactly if you were really going 60mpg.
Sadly, our speedo's are off by about 4mph off at 40, and 8mph at 80.
the reason this bothers me is that my odometer is now 8000 miles more than what i've really driven.

edit: you could do what doug did to get the speedometer accurate.

Mechanic
05-28-2008, 12:51 PM
excellent points. one thing wrong though is that the neuspeed springs are actually softer than stock front and rear, not twice as stiff as stock.
GS-R - 200F/95R (P/P)
CTR - 240/240 (L/P)
H&R OE - 280F/190R (P/P)
Eibach ProKit - 290F/190R (P/P
H&R Sport - 330F/280R (P/P)
Eibach Sportline - 310F/275R (P/P)
Gold-line GL 2.5" drop - 320/190 (P/P)
Gold-line GPS 1.25" drop - 275/160 (P/P)
Koni RSK Suspension kit - 154-205/270 (P/L)
Neuspeed SofSports - 260F/150R (P/P)
Neuspeed Sport - 280F/180R (P/P)
Neuspeed Race - 485F/395R
Skunk Coilovers -old - 400F/300R (L/L) for civic, 500F/400R for integra
Skunk2 Coilovers - new - 500F/400r (L/L)
Spoon Full Coilovers - 300/240
Progress Coilovers - 350F/250R (P/P)
Progress Lowering Springs - 320F/200R (P/P)
Ground Control Coilover - 380F/280R (P/P) (this is the standard kit and the springs are mildly progressive).
Tein RA/RE/RS - 783F/559R (L/L)
Tein HT - 1119F/448R (L/L)
Tein HG - 365F/129-196R (L/P)
Tein SS - 448F/224R
Tein Flex - 504F/280R
Tein S. Tech - 235F/140R
Tokico Illumina Kit - 250/123 (P/P)
APEX'i WS - 447f/178r

Res ipsa loquitor

MugsyTheGr8
05-28-2008, 12:58 PM
GS-R - 200F/95R (P/P)
CTR - 240/240 (L/P)
H&R OE - 280F/190R (P/P)
Eibach ProKit - 290F/190R (P/P
H&R Sport - 330F/280R (P/P)
Eibach Sportline - 310F/275R (P/P)
Gold-line GL 2.5" drop - 320/190 (P/P)
Gold-line GPS 1.25" drop - 275/160 (P/P)
Koni RSK Suspension kit - 154-205/270 (P/L)
Neuspeed SofSports - 260F/150R (P/P)
Neuspeed Sport - 280F/180R (P/P)
Neuspeed Race - 485F/395R
Skunk Coilovers -old - 400F/300R (L/L) for civic, 500F/400R for integra
Skunk2 Coilovers - new - 500F/400r (L/L)
Spoon Full Coilovers - 300/240
Progress Coilovers - 350F/250R (P/P)
Progress Lowering Springs - 320F/200R (P/P)
Ground Control Coilover - 380F/280R (P/P) (this is the standard kit and the springs are mildly progressive).
Tein RA/RE/RS - 783F/559R (L/L)
Tein HT - 1119F/448R (L/L)
Tein HG - 365F/129-196R (L/P)
Tein SS - 448F/224R
Tein Flex - 504F/280R
Tein S. Tech - 235F/140R
Tokico Illumina Kit - 250/123 (P/P)
APEX'i WS - 447f/178r

Res ipsa loquitor
i guess the list on ephatch is wrong then. they have the nuespeeds listed as 200/280 F/R

v1c10us
05-28-2008, 01:23 PM
Neuspeed SofSports - 260F/150R (P/P)
Neuspeed Sport - 280F/180R (P/P)
Neuspeed Race - 485F/395R


neuspeed RACE
look at the rest of the neuspeeds, softer than stock by a considerable amount.
he didnt say he had the race springs
i dont know anyone with the race springs actually

v1c10us
05-28-2008, 01:28 PM
GS-R - 200F/95R (P/P)
CTR - 240/240 (L/P)
H&R OE - 280F/190R (P/P)
Eibach ProKit - 290F/190R (P/P
H&R Sport - 330F/280R (P/P)
Eibach Sportline - 310F/275R (P/P)
Gold-line GL 2.5" drop - 320/190 (P/P)
Gold-line GPS 1.25" drop - 275/160 (P/P)
Koni RSK Suspension kit - 154-205/270 (P/L)
Neuspeed SofSports - 260F/150R (P/P)
Neuspeed Sport - 280F/180R (P/P)
Neuspeed Race - 485F/395R
Skunk Coilovers -old - 400F/300R (L/L) for civic, 500F/400R for integra
Skunk2 Coilovers - new - 500F/400r (L/L)
Spoon Full Coilovers - 300/240
Progress Coilovers - 350F/250R (P/P)
Progress Lowering Springs - 320F/200R (P/P)
Ground Control Coilover - 380F/280R (P/P) (this is the standard kit and the springs are mildly progressive).
Tein RA/RE/RS - 783F/559R (L/L)
Tein HT - 1119F/448R (L/L)
Tein HG - 365F/129-196R (L/P)
Tein SS - 448F/224R
Tein Flex - 504F/280R
Tein S. Tech - 235F/140R
Tokico Illumina Kit - 250/123 (P/P)
APEX'i WS - 447f/178r

Res ipsa loquitor

wha the fuck moron posted this list
what the HELL, go fucking die!

S-tech 235 front/140 rear?
progress 320/200?
this is the most mistaken list I have ever seen In my life.

teins website sais s-techs are 280/510
progress website says 280/500
jesus christ
just, anyone who read this list just pretend you never saw it.
The neuspeeds are softer than stock, the specs listed for them on ephatch are correct.
The neuspeed race springs might be a bit stiffer than the sports, but i'm fairly sure they're still soft as shit.

IcyDeath
05-28-2008, 03:46 PM
Here is what I know it has:
1. Neuspeed Race Springs


neuspeed RACE
look at the rest of the neuspeeds, softer than stock by a considerable amount.
he didnt say he had the race springs
i dont know anyone with the race springs actually

I did/do and they suck apparently.

Mechanic
05-28-2008, 04:54 PM
wha the fuck moron posted this list
The neuspeed race springs might be a bit stiffer than the sports, but i'm fairly sure they're still soft as shit. Insightful analysis. I'm convinced.

You've come a long way in your month on the board. Tell me, what part of "res ipsa loquitor" didn't you understand?

Since the OP has already noted your apparent lack of reading comprehension, I'll overlook it.

talonXracer
05-28-2008, 05:01 PM
That list isnt correct for the Progress coilovers, and I know that for a fact.


"res ipsa loquitor" = not a clue! Who cares about latin, a archaic language at best

MugsyTheGr8
05-28-2008, 05:32 PM
i dont speak latin and google's not working, so i will need a translation.

Mechanic
05-28-2008, 06:43 PM
i dont speak latin and google's not working, so i will need a translation.

Guys, forget the Latin. It means the thing speaks for itself. As for the list, it's been around for years on all the Civic boards. You can Google it. I assumed the OP was only interested in the three items I highlighted -- original equipment springs, Prokits and Neuspeed race springs. As for the coilovers on the list, when I read the list I assumed the spring rates listed -- i.e., the spring rates for the adjustable coilovers listed -- were the lowest spring rates one can set. That range of adjustment likely was seen as a positive thing in '04 and '05 when coilovers were being sold as the best of all worlds. I, however, wasn't focusing on the coilovers on the list, and in hindsight I realize I should have been more specific regarding the highlighted items on the list, cited the source, and deleted the rest. I apologize for the confusion.

MugsyTheGr8
05-28-2008, 07:10 PM
its all gravy, man. i think people are just a little flustered by the difference in the listed spring weights on that list, vs the spring weights listed on ephatch. either way, the springs, either too stiff or too soft, are definitely part of the OPs problem.