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View Full Version : I want zero body roll?



nos4mao
07-21-2008, 02:15 PM
Currently Im dropped on progress coilovers supposedly since I bought the EP used and it was already dropped. I'm running the CTR rear sway with corsport endlinks and I still feel lots of body roll! What should I do?

Thanks,
Matt

bmyers4321
07-21-2008, 02:35 PM
i believe the progress dampers are adjustable so start playing with that. you dont want to have 0 body roll there needs to be some.

nos4mao
07-21-2008, 02:40 PM
The progress coilovers are only height adjustable.... but yea I know what you mean by having a little body roll?.

Thanks,
Matt

lbk02si
07-21-2008, 02:48 PM
i believe the progress dampers are adjustable so start playing with that. you dont want to have 0 body roll there needs to be some.

x2 haha!!! jeez i can't imagine how bad it'd be with 0 roll!

Zzyzx
07-21-2008, 02:52 PM
Body roll, or the lack there of is not a good indicator of how well or poorly a car handles.

Not to mention the fact that suspension tuning dictates that for maximum grip, you should be running as soft of a suspension as you can get away with.

So,Body roll aside. How is the car handling now?

RedSiBaron
07-21-2008, 03:18 PM
hey man!

you need look at the kg on your progress springs...you can knock out a lot of roll with stiffer springs and a stiff dampener...it would prolly take atleast a 9kg spring to stop body roll on an ep, and at that point i dont know if you could use that stiff of a spring without a radical suspension setup, and for the street 9kg would rattle your car apart...

showoff3civic
07-21-2008, 03:28 PM
get some koni adjustable struts

550lb springs in the front and 750 lb springs in the rear

a 22 mm front sway bar and a 25mm hollow rear sway... that would put you pretty solid, you should talk to scott or the old noob about it

taikahn
07-21-2008, 03:28 PM
low profile tires, stiff sidewalls, Real struts or coilovers, H bar, lower strut bar, tie bar, c-pillar bar, front bar, carbing or X brace, etc. <-- should more then do it.

We sell all of it.

Tai
CorSport

Zzyzx
07-21-2008, 03:30 PM
low profile tires, stiff sidewalls, Real struts or coilovers, H bar, lower strut bar, tie bar, c-pillar bar, front bar, carbing or X brace, etc. <-- should more then do it.

We sell all of it.

Tai
CorSport

Um, chassis braces have no effect on body roll, given that they don't alter spring rates or ant-roll rates... let alone damper rates.

jtyler05si
07-21-2008, 03:38 PM
but they look pretty

ep_hatcher_510
07-21-2008, 06:00 PM
hey man!

you need look at the kg on your progress springs...you can knock out a lot of roll with stiffer springs and a stiff dampener...it would prolly take atleast a 9kg spring to stop body roll on an ep, and at that point i dont know if you could use that stiff of a spring without a radical suspension setup, and for the street 9kg would rattle your car apart...

im running 10k/12k, no rattling here :mbiggrin: and it actually feels great on the road.

RedSiBaron
07-21-2008, 06:04 PM
im running 10k/12k, no rattling here :mbiggrin: and it actually feels great on the road.

well lucky you, how much interior do you still have, and im surprised thats comfortable on the street, what dampeners/coilover setup

ep_hatcher_510
07-21-2008, 06:06 PM
well lucky you, how much interior do you still have, and im surprised thats comfortable on the street, what dampeners/coilover setup

i got full interior, riding on megan street, with soft setting on the dampers.

taikahn
07-21-2008, 06:26 PM
Um, chassis braces have no effect on body roll, given that they don't alter spring rates or ant-roll rates... let alone damper rates.

True, but it will help keep it all flat.

Tai

RedSiBaron
07-21-2008, 06:39 PM
i got full interior, riding on megan street, with soft setting on the dampers.

ahhh that would be why then...its cool that it still rides nice when you soften up the dampeners...how stiff is it with the dampeners turned up

clutch797
07-21-2008, 06:42 PM
Um, chassis braces have no effect on body roll, given that they don't alter spring rates or ant-roll rates... let alone damper rates.

I think he was trying to make a sale.

madcityEP
07-21-2008, 06:44 PM
you do want some body roll when you are racing.. My ep almost has no body roll when my suspension is on fully stiff.

nos4mao
07-21-2008, 07:15 PM
Oh ok.... I think Im getting what you guyz are saying! All I know is that the spring rate on my set-up is too stiff for the roads I drive on. Basically my EP doesnt take bumps like a champ. Im going to look into some new coilovers and set it on soft.

Thanks,
Matt

ep_hatcher_510
07-21-2008, 07:36 PM
ahhh that would be why then...its cool that it still rides nice when you soften up the dampeners...how stiff is it with the dampeners turned up

not very good LOL, still bearable tho, but with the roads local to me i rather keep it at soft.

v1c10us
07-21-2008, 07:41 PM
hey man!

you need look at the kg on your progress springs...you can knock out a lot of roll with stiffer springs and a stiff dampener...it would prolly take atleast a 9kg spring to stop body roll on an ep, and at that point i dont know if you could use that stiff of a spring without a radical suspension setup, and for the street 9kg would rattle your car apart...

a 9kg spring is a buttery soft 503 lb/in
tein s-techs are stiffer than that in the rear.
16kg is fairly common on cars converted for the track.
although i'd go with 14 at the stiffest if i wanted to drive the car places.

RedSiBaron
07-21-2008, 08:39 PM
a 9kg spring is a buttery soft 503 lb/in
tein s-techs are stiffer than that in the rear.
16kg is fairly common on cars converted for the track.
although i'd go with 14 at the stiffest if i wanted to drive the car places.

hhrrrm...thats closer...i was getting my conversions mixed up...oops :mangel:

nos4mao
07-21-2008, 08:47 PM
Not sure if this true, but dont you need a higher spring rate in the rear?

Thanks,
Matt

ep_hatcher_510
07-21-2008, 09:16 PM
^^ yes

fEPst3r
07-21-2008, 09:22 PM
a solid pipe to replace the suspension might do it, but like everyone else says, you need a lil body roll.

with my bc rsd 10k front and 16k rear, front has slight flex, 12-14k should be do the trick but at 16k in the rear and gutted, i feel no flex at all.

nos4mao
07-21-2008, 09:25 PM
Im going to be getting the Megan street coilovers! What should I set them at? I want to set it at soft level bc of how crappy the roads are! I hate it when I go over a bump of some sort and since my set-up is stiff... man is like finger nails on a chalk bored. This has to change! Thats why Im getting a new set of coilovers. You see I bought the EP used. The previous owner dropped it on I think Progress bc the spring is gray. I just wish I could find out when the person put this set-up on?

Thanks,
Matt

v1c10us
07-21-2008, 10:20 PM
you have progress coilovers or springs?

cow
07-21-2008, 10:24 PM
Not sure if this true, but dont you need a higher spring rate in the rear?

Thanks,
Matt
Yes. As you have less weight in the rear (assuming you're driving a front-engined car), one compensates by having higher rates in the rear. The front's lower rate accomodates the engine/ transmission/ etc.

nos4mao
07-22-2008, 08:53 AM
Ok.... I bought this EP used. The previous owner dropped it on progress springs, but when you look at the set-up there is this thing that I dont know the name of where you can adjust the height. Who knows?

Thanks,
Matt

Zzyzx
07-22-2008, 08:53 AM
Yes. As you have less weight in the rear (assuming you're driving a front-engined car), one compensates by having higher rates in the rear. The front's lower rate accomodates the engine/ transmission/ etc.

almost correct but for the wrong reasons.

We have to look at Suspension frequencies here in order to understand whats going on and have a Proper measure of "Stiff" & "Soft".

Suspension frequencies are simply a measure of a suspensions stiffness based off the spring rate, The suspensions geometry & how much weight each corner is holding. And its Measured In Hz.

The important part here is suspension geometry. See the Ep3 has a strut front end and a multi link A-arm on the rear. and that means they have Drastically Different motion ratios. In this case the Front ends motion ratio is about .9 where as the rears motion ratio is about .6, nearly half of the fronts. So, weight aside you'd need nearly twice the spring rate on the rear to simply have the same wheel rate as the front. (wheel rate is the "spring rate" of that suspension acting at the contact patch of the tire, and its always less then the base spring rate.


On to more important things regarding suspensions....

Most street cars have a natural Frequency of around 1 to 1.5 Hz. We're talking Cadillacs here. Soft cushy suspensions and the like. The Stock EP3 spring rates give the EP3 a natural frequency of around 1.6 to 1.8...
Which is in the range of most sporty sedans & coups. Sports cars, such as Corvettes and the like are in the 2 to 2.5 Hz range.

Most after market "coilovers" run in the 2 to 2.5Hz range, so you can see Why they ride stiffer.

For example Progress C1 "coilovers" should yield a suspension frequency of about 1.8-1.9 on the nose & about 2.1 on the rear, Just touching that sports car range. Where as Buddy Club RSD's run in the ~2.5 front & Rear range.


Any way, back to basics.
For maximum handling you need to run as soft of a suspension as you can get away with. How soft you can run will primarily be determined by what tires you run, as running rock hard allseasons will allow for a softer spring rate then DOT-R compounds.

cow
07-22-2008, 03:42 PM
almost correct but for the wrong reasons.Thank you very much for clearing that up. Great post as always.
I'm extremely glad you've re-registered.

NHBP ep3
07-22-2008, 04:11 PM
Any way, back to basics.
For maximum handling you need to run as soft of a suspension as you can get away with. How soft you can run will primarily be determined by what tires you run, as running rock hard allseasons will allow for a softer spring rate then DOT-R compounds.


well what if u do have a softer tire why would u want to run stiffer? if the softer the suspention than the more tire grip you get? wouldent this mean with a softer tire u would have even MORE grip? what happens if ur suspention is too soft? reffering to what u mean by "get away with"?

!@#$%
07-22-2008, 04:23 PM
Im going to be getting the Megan street coilovers! What should I set them at? I want to set it at soft level bc of how crappy the roads are! I hate it when I go over a bump of some sort and since my set-up is stiff... man is like finger nails on a chalk bored. This has to change! Thats why Im getting a new set of coilovers. You see I bought the EP used. The previous owner dropped it on I think Progress bc the spring is gray. I just wish I could find out when the person put this set-up on?

Thanks,
Matt

Buddy of mine sets his on 17 clicks from full firm. It can be driven like that daily with no issues. on full firm however...lol wear a mouthpiece or your teeth might fall out of your head.

Zzyzx
07-22-2008, 04:42 PM
well what if u do have a softer tire why would u want to run stiffer? if the softer the suspention than the more tire grip you get? wouldent this mean with a softer tire u would have even MORE grip? what happens if ur suspention is too soft? reffering to what u mean by "get away with"?

Well, The basically you want a suspension thats stiff enough to keep you off of your bump stops & control camber change. In this cars case, Camber loss. As the strut front end doesn't gain that much camber as it compresses, and actually has a point through its stroke range where you'll actually start to lose camber.

So, grippier tire = more weight being able to be transfered in a turn = need for stiffer suspension to resist that increase in weight & keep chassis roll to acceptable levels.

You could say that gripper tires Force you to run a stiffer suspension. Rather then you actually wanting to run a stiffer suspension.

!@#$%
07-22-2008, 04:48 PM
Well, The basically you want a suspension thats stiff enough to keep you off of your bump stops & control camber change. In this cars case, Camber loss. As the strut front end doesn't gain that much camber as it compresses, and actually has a point through its stroke range where you'll actually start to lose camber.

So, grippier tire = more weight being able to be transfered in a turn = need for stiffer suspension to resist that increase in weight & keep chassis roll to acceptable levels.

You could say that gripper tires Force you to run a stiffer suspension. Rather then you actually wanting to run a stiffer suspension.

That's how i feel on 225 z212's and old dspecs. 12kg front 16kg rear to come.

AliG-EP3
07-22-2008, 07:10 PM
Um, chassis braces have no effect on body roll, given that they don't alter spring rates or ant-roll rates... let alone damper rates.

Where have you been all my life! This is the man you need to talk to if you have a suspension question. But I would suggest sway bars next, 2003 Civic Coupe EX front sway (15.7mm I believe), as well as a new RSX type-s rear sway (21mm) or CTR / DC5-R rear sway (22mm). This will give you a nice balanced and neutral feel, not too much oversteer like the 25mm might, but then again I think that's what Zzyzx is running in his civic coupe

oldskoofame
07-23-2008, 03:00 AM
True, but it will help keep it all flat.

Tai

wrong concept. so u fail.

if u want zero body roll.. u will depend on aerodynamics for handling.

oldskoofame
07-23-2008, 03:03 AM
a 9kg spring is a buttery soft 503 lb/in
tein s-techs are stiffer than that in the rear.
16kg is fairly common on cars converted for the track.
although i'd go with 14 at the stiffest if i wanted to drive the car places.

i don't think the majority of ephatch owners can deal buying tires with any spring rates higher than that.

oldskoofame
07-23-2008, 03:06 AM
low profile tires, stiff sidewalls, Real struts or coilovers, H bar, lower strut bar, tie bar, c-pillar bar, front bar, carbing or X brace, etc. <-- should more then do it.

We sell all of it.

Tai
CorSport

CorSport?
never shopped there, but my car still handles fucking good as far as i know. :hay:
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ - bars. get em all folks!!!
H bar? Hagandaz bar

oldskoofame
07-23-2008, 03:08 AM
Currently Im dropped on progress coilovers supposedly since I bought the EP used and it was already dropped. I'm running the CTR rear sway with corsport endlinks and I still feel lots of body roll! What should I do?

Thanks,
Matt

just lean ur body into the turn more. that will solve the problem. that way u will feel no roll.

nos4mao
07-23-2008, 07:07 AM
Sorry about the question!. Its kinda of a noob like question! Oh well?

Thanks,
Matt

ShadySi
07-23-2008, 07:27 AM
I upgraded tires and i need stiffer springs... that makes prefect sense zzyzx, you're tha man!

Drew1d
07-23-2008, 07:43 AM
A matchbox car has no body roll, and down a smooth surface, it will go just fine. But add some bumps, and the toy car will end up on it's side.

From what I read, you already have aftermarket springs, and a larger rear sway. If the springs are progressive rate, that could account for some of the extra body roll. (But also added comfort in ride quality.)

I guess you could add stiffer springs, but it might not handle better on the street, make an uncomfortable ride but give less body roll. If it's your track car, then I guess that's not an issue. (driving over even pavement with no bumps.)

If you want the springs to feel stiffer, without actually changing them, I'd suggest reducing sprung weight. Clean the car out fully. Take out the donut and tools, remove the back seat and any other interior your willing to have out.

Nitrofaint
07-23-2008, 07:50 AM
wrong concept. so u fail.

if u want zero body roll.. u will depend on aerodynamics for handling.

Aerodynamics, while an important aspect of handling during high speeds has virtually no effect during low speed racing such as auto-x.

Having a stiffer chassis helps the driver dial in his suspension much better because it eliminates chassis flex and provides more consistent feedback for suspension tuning.

nos4mao
07-23-2008, 01:10 PM
Ok... im getting at what you guyz are sayin? I plan to get coilovers soon. The roads I drive on are pot hole city. So what would I want to set my set-up at? Im getting the megan street coilovers. Since these coilovers have ride height adjustablility and dampening control. What would I want to set it at? Im leaning more towards a softer set-up. The tires I'm running are the Toyo Proxes4 if that helps?

Thanks,
Matt

na14yu
07-23-2008, 01:36 PM
The best path to ZERO body roll....

Step 1: Build a time machine
Step 2: Go back to when you were 6 years old
Step 3: Start karting when you are 6
Step 4: Win every karting championship in America
Step 5: Move to Europe and win every karting championship in Europe
Step 6: Win GP2 championship
Step 7: Become F1 driver

oldskoofame
07-23-2008, 02:02 PM
Aerodynamics, while an important aspect of handling during high speeds has virtually no effect during low speed racing such as auto-x.

i'm gonna give you some time to rephrase that.

oldskoofame
07-23-2008, 02:14 PM
http://mike-kim.rohanroy.com/096.jpg

also check out Formula SAE to see their reasons behind their exterior design.

ep_hatcher_510
07-23-2008, 02:29 PM
http://mike-kim.rohanroy.com/096.jpg

also check out Formula SAE to see their reasons behind their exterior design.

that thing looks mean

Nitrofaint
07-23-2008, 07:37 PM
i'm gonna give you some time to rephrase that.

:mrolleyes:

So you are saying that by tweaking the aerodynamics of the car, that you will lose body roll?

No seriously... I'm just trying to find out where you are coming from?


From what I have gathered, the most effective way to reduce body roll is using sway bars and stiffer spring/damper rates. Applying any types of aerodynamics to the ep will have a minimal/insignifcant effect unless the car is traveling over 55 mph. I really don't care if that Lotus is running 3 wings and a vacuum underneath it! Posting that picture does not prove anything!


I'm not tryng to be an ass, but you are really coming across as a know it all and I just want to see some valid data to verify your claims.

Is this where you got your information?
http://home.triad.rr.com/wmracing/sae_2002-01-3294.pdf

v1c10us
07-23-2008, 07:44 PM
i don't think the majority of ephatch owners can deal buying tires with any spring rates higher than that.

higher than which? 9k, 14k, or 16k?
Im sure that most everyone could handle 9k.
as I said, 16k is more of a track use rating
and 14k would be the most i'd go at the street, but i think 10 front 12 rear would be ideal.

v1c10us
07-23-2008, 07:48 PM
sorry for the double post, dont feel like editing

:mrolleyes:

So you are saying that by tweaking the aerodynamics of the car, that you will lose body roll?

No seriously... I'm just trying to find out where you are coming from?


From what I have gathered, the most effective way to reduce body roll is using sway bars and stiffer spring/damper rates. Applying any types of aerodynamics to the ep will have a minimal/insignifcant effect unless the car is traveling over 55 mph. I really don't care if that Lotus is running 3 wings and a vacuum underneath it! Posting that picture does not prove anything!


I'm not tryng to be an ass, but you are really coming across as a know it all and I just want to see some valid data to verify your claims.

Is this where you got your information?
http://home.triad.rr.com/wmracing/sae_2002-01-3294.pdf

I think what he was saying that in a car WITHOUT body roll, tweaking the aerodynamics is very important.
For instance, on topgear('ve been referencing this show too much lately)
The stig drove the koeniggseg around the track and spun out off the road and then posted a fairly slow time because the suspension was SO stiff, and the aerodynamics were designed for top speed so there was very little downforce in order to keep the car from weighing 4 tons at 200 mph
He asked them to put a spoiler on it to increase downforce and it posted the fastest time at that date.

When a car has rock hard suspension aerodynamics are very important to keep the car pushed onto the road.

ep_hatcher_510
07-23-2008, 09:13 PM
When a car has rock hard suspension aerodynamics are very important to keep the car pushed onto the road.

:thumbu: yep. example : F1

oldskoofame
07-23-2008, 09:19 PM
wrong concept. so u fail.

if u want zero body roll.. u will depend on aerodynamics for handling.

I compared one's desire for zero body roll + how they will depend on aerodynamics for handling.
and then here you come saying:


Aerodynamics, while an important aspect of handling during high speeds has virtually no effect during low speed racing such as auto-x.

...when i have never even mentioned high speed and low speed travel.
either way, so i showed u a picture where one would use aerodynamics in AutoX because u said aerodyanmics have virtually no effect during low speed racing SUCH AS AUTOX.


http://mike-kim.rohanroy.com/096.jpg

also check out Formula SAE to see their reasons behind their exterior design.

and then u rant on saying:


:mrolleyes:

So you are saying that by tweaking the aerodynamics of the car, that you will lose body roll?

No seriously... I'm just trying to find out where you are coming from?


From what I have gathered, the most effective way to reduce body roll is using sway bars and stiffer spring/damper rates. Applying any types of aerodynamics to the ep will have a minimal/insignifcant effect unless the car is traveling over 55 mph. I really don't care if that Lotus is running 3 wings and a vacuum underneath it! Posting that picture does not prove anything!


I'm not tryng to be an ass, but you are really coming across as a know it all and I just want to see some valid data to verify your claims.

Is this where you got your information?
http://home.triad.rr.com/wmracing/sae_2002-01-3294.pdf

you talk like air resistance don't exist unlesss u go more than 55mph. are there no air molecules when u autoX? do they say "oh shit, it's autoX time, let's gtfo out of here."

in automobiles and the phenotypical handling of automobiles, there are 2 things: mechanical & aerodynamic.

of course u are talking about the most effective way. I understand what you are trying to say. I honestly don't want to waste my time explaining the role of pressure when it comes to anything in motion. that's something that takes time and ur gonna have to learn urself.

I have never said aerodynamics will give you less body roll.
I have SAID that one will purely depend on the functions of aerodynamics if they want zero body roll and desires performance. Why? I'm not going to even explain why. Just watch formula racing and see why it grips more going 80mph in corners than 30mph.

I come from outer space

this stuff is pretty basic and common sense.

does it make u that angry that some one out of 1000000000000000 people in this world is there to refute your statement/argument? if u aren't angry, then i take back the question.

oldskoofame
07-23-2008, 09:34 PM
http://home.triad.rr.com/wmracing/sae_2002-01-3294.pdf

i'm not going to even click on that.
could be some porn site with viruses.

AliG-EP3
07-23-2008, 09:38 PM
This is getting ridiculous....

cow
07-23-2008, 09:41 PM
Seriously.

Closed.

PS: Oldskoofame, you know your shit, but try not being a dick. Zzyzx always posts quality information & does not present it in a condescending tone.