PDA

View Full Version : Progress Springs a No-No??



vboy127
08-03-2008, 03:51 PM
So i've been doing some research on the Progress Lowering springs and with it's drop. I've heard some really great things about the progress springs but I also read that anything more than a 1-1.5" drop will cause the LCAs up front to point upwards which will create negative effects to the handling plus cause quicker wear and tear on some components. i'm only going to use my EP for daily-driving, spirited corners, and occasional little runs up in the mountains (in Utah im right next the Rocky mountains :mbiggrin:) but basically i just want a good looking drop and some better handling, should i go for a less agressive drop? or stick with progressive and their awesome reputation..

Oh and i'm thinking of coupling the springs with Tokico D-Specs.
Thanks in advance!

mustclime
08-04-2008, 10:43 AM
So i've been doing some research on the Progress Lowering springs and with it's drop. I've heard some really great things about the progress springs but I also read that anything more than a 1-1.5" drop will cause the LCAs up front to point upwards which will create negative effects to the handling plus cause quicker wear and tear on some components. i'm only going to use my EP for daily-driving, spirited corners, and occasional little runs up in the mountains (in Utah im right next the Rocky mountains :mbiggrin:) but basically i just want a good looking drop and some better handling, should i go for a less agressive drop? or stick with progressive and their awesome reputation..

Oh and i'm thinking of coupling the springs with Tokico D-Specs.
Thanks in advance!

there's your problem right there........

Because of the suspension design in our cars, dropping them does not = better handling.....sorry

Once the lower controle arms get past "flat", the ep3 turns into a understeering pig. You can off set this a little with really high spring rates and huge sways but if you want the car to handle, do not drop it.:mwink:

blackout
08-04-2008, 10:56 AM
I've had progress springs on my EP for years now, I've also got a bunch of other parts like Mugen LCAs and Mugen front sway, progress rear sway, endlinks front and rear... So I don't really have a stock set-up with progress springs so my results will be different but I have little to no understeer and my car is pretty low.


Lowering an EP WILL MAKE YOUR car handle better. But you may have to add more to the suspension to get it to react the way you want...

kprocivic
08-04-2008, 10:58 AM
progress makes a quality set of springs. progressive has good deals on car insurance. i would not recommend doing any canyon driving with just springs unless your a pro. make sure you beef on the sway and strut bars if your just doing springs.

mustclime
08-04-2008, 11:35 AM
I've had progress springs on my EP for years now, I've also got a bunch of other parts like Mugen LCAs and Mugen front sway, progress rear sway, endlinks front and rear... So I don't really have a stock set-up with progress springs so my results will be different but I have little to no understeer and my car is pretty low.


Lowering an EP WILL MAKE YOUR car handle better. But you may have to add more to the suspension to get it to react the way you want...

Sorry, fail.....
Heres why.....First look at this pic of our front suspension.....

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg96/mustclime/S4_Civic_2-1.gif

This is the drivers side suspension ....the top pic is from the rear. Look at the lca at stock ride hight...see how it is angled more or less down from the center of the car? Now put the car into a right hand turn at speed....the cornering load goes from the contact patch, to the bearing carrior, down the flat lca to the "K" member.

OK, now lower the car more than a inch....the lca will be angled up from the center of the car. Now put this car into a hard right hand turn. The cornering force will go from the contact patch, to the bearing carrior....but since the lca is angled up, some of the cornering load will be pushing the lca up and compressing suspension through its travel till you are ridding on your bumpstops......congrats, you now have a understeering pig that blows it way though it travel in every turn. This is why j's racing makes roll center correctors, to get the lca back into a position where side loads do not compress the suspension.

I have been autoXing my ep3 for a while now, I have tuned koni's with ground controles coilover sleeves with custom spring rates. I have tried stock ride hights, one inch drop, 2 inch drop....By far the best hight for our car without a major rebiuld of the suspension is about 1/2 drop.... If you are going to run stickie tires, stock ride hight is better.....but do as you want.

epshtielsl
08-04-2008, 11:38 AM
Trust this guy. As someone said earlier, mustclime's suspension kung fu is strong. He knows his shit.

vboy127
08-04-2008, 04:39 PM
Hey thanks a bunch guys! and thank you mustclime for the advice. :msmile: i'm just not a big fan of my ride height. i have an 02 with it's 15" its straight up 4x4. could i maybe go with a subtle drop like the eibach pro-kit (less than 1") and be safe?

and yes, i'm planning to upgrade shocks to tokico d-specs and get an upraded sway bar. is it best to go with the progress sway or RSX type-s sway?

LAZARUS
08-04-2008, 05:00 PM
Hey thanks a bunch guys! and thank you mustclime for the advice. :msmile: i'm just not a big fan of my ride height. i have an 02 with it's 15" its straight up 4x4. could i maybe go with a subtle drop like the eibach pro-kit (less than 1") and be safe?

and yes, i'm planning to upgrade shocks to tokico d-specs and get an upraded sway bar. is it best to go with the progress sway or RSX type-s sway?



well you dont want a stock ride height either. too much body roll,you just need to be carefull on the parts you chose. and you should do fine with anything from 1 inch to 2inches,if you look a king motorsports ep...it did great,i think it was on h&r springs which is a 2inch drop.you should be worried about tires,tires and width are what make a diffrence

LAZARUS
08-04-2008, 09:11 PM
Sorry, fail.....
Heres why.....First look at this pic of our front suspension.....

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg96/mustclime/S4_Civic_2-1.gif

This is the drivers side suspension ....the top pic is from the rear. Look at the lca at stock ride hight...see how it is angled more or less down from the center of the car? Now put the car into a right hand turn at speed....the cornering load goes from the contact patch, to the bearing carrior, down the flat lca to the "K" member.

OK, now lower the car more than a inch....the lca will be angled up from the center of the car. Now put this car into a hard right hand turn. The cornering force will go from the contact patch, to the bearing carrior....but since the lca is angled up, some of the cornering load will be pushing the lca up and compressing suspension through its travel till you are ridding on your bumpstops......congrats, you now have a understeering pig that blows it way though it travel in every turn. This is why j's racing makes roll center correctors, to get the lca back into a position where side loads do not compress the suspension.

I have been autoXing my ep3 for a while now, I have tuned koni's with ground controles coilover sleeves with custom spring rates. I have tried stock ride hights, one inch drop, 2 inch drop....By far the best hight for our car without a major rebiuld of the suspension is about 1/2 drop.... If you are going to run stickie tires, stock ride hight is better.....but do as you want.


man im getting confused with all these setups online.what are you runing?

ive heard from guys that progress and eibach springs on good shocks do the trick but from what you said it seems like these setups with 1.5 and 1.6 drops are killing it.

vboy127
08-04-2008, 09:30 PM
man im getting confused with all these setups online.what are you runing?

ive heard from guys that progress and eibach springs on good shocks do the trick but from what you said it seems like these setups with 1.5 and 1.6 drops are killing it.

Exactly, thats what i don't understand. So many people on this forum are upgrading their suspension with drops well beyond 1" and saying it handles great...?? and would anti-roll bars help with the body roll problem?

Soprano21
08-04-2008, 09:34 PM
heres a question how low do you really wanna go? i have Tein STechs and the ride is great its 1.5Fr and 1.3Rr and it handles great.......most of the guys that go really low also beff up the whole suspension usually

vboy127
08-04-2008, 09:51 PM
heres a question how low do you really wanna go? i have Tein STechs and the ride is great its 1.5Fr and 1.3Rr and it handles great.......most of the guys that go really low also beff up the whole suspension usually

i'd be very content with about a 1.5" drop. but does that mess up the LCAs?? and are you on the new EP specific teins or the EM ones?

LAZARUS
08-04-2008, 10:12 PM
Exactly, thats what i don't understand. So many people on this forum are upgrading their suspension with drops well beyond 1" and saying it handles great...?? and would anti-roll bars help with the body roll problem?


yeah thats what i dont get,Spoons race car was lowered more then 2 inchs on slicks and did great, kingmotorsports/mugen ep was really low aswell.Buddyclub did extremely well with the ep.too me,if its not atleast lowered an inch the body roll will kill lap times.stock ep has way too much body roll imo. i dont think eibach 1.5 drop with good shock will hurt our LCA's...idk.

Hasbro
08-04-2008, 10:27 PM
yeah thats what i dont get,Spoons race car was lowered more then 2 inchs on slicks and did great, kingmotorsports/mugen ep was really low aswell.Buddyclub did extremely well with the ep.too me,if its not atleast lowered an inch the body roll will kill lap times.stock ep has way too much body roll imo. i dont think eibach 1.5 drop with good shock will hurt our LCA's...idk.

Their suspensions have been heavily modified. Different arms, different mounting points, 2,000+ lbs. rear shocks, etc.

LAZARUS
08-04-2008, 10:42 PM
Their suspensions have been heavily modified. Different arms, different mounting points, 2,000+ lbs. rear shocks, etc.

oh yeah,buddy clubs ep was simply nasty. i dont understand what mods are good for ep2,street/track wise....

v1c10us
08-04-2008, 11:35 PM
I've got progress and I love them, the rear LCA's are still angled down, the front lca's are practically straight.
I'm aware that my car could handle better with a different set up and I know what mustclime is talking about, but I cant deny the fact that the car is without a doubt more planted than stock, I can take corners faster than stock, there is less body roll than stock.
As to oversteer/understeer, In my opinion the fastest way around a corner is straight, sliding around a corner doesnt make you go any faster.
If the angle of my front lca's is inducing understeer it doesnt really matter to me.
I don't care which way my car is going to slide once i lose traction as long as I can go faster before that happens..

And according to my 440 west offramp to hillsboro road test I now lose traction at 53 instead of 44

LAZARUS
08-05-2008, 12:10 AM
I've got progress and I love them, the rear LCA's are still angled down, the front lca's are practically straight.
I'm aware that my car could handle better with a different set up and I know what mustclime is talking about, but I cant deny the fact that the car is without a doubt more planted than stock, I can take corners faster than stock, there is less body roll than stock.
As to oversteer/understeer, In my opinion the fastest way around a corner is straight, sliding around a corner doesnt make you go any faster.
If the angle of my front lca's is inducing understeer it doesnt really matter to me.
I don't care which way my car is going to slide once i lose traction as long as I can go faster before that happens..

And according to my 440 west offramp to hillsboro road test I now lose traction at 53 instead of 44


then Eibachs 1.5 drop should be nice for sure

v1c10us
08-05-2008, 12:13 AM
it should be in theory yes, but i think the main reason that it handles better is becuase of the stiffness of the springs. Eibachs are notably soft.
if you're really struggling with the decision get the ground control coilover sleeves with custom rates.
for a DD i'd probably go with 300 in the front and 600 in the rear or something around there.

LAZARUS
08-05-2008, 12:22 AM
it should be in theory yes, but i think the main reason that it handles better is becuase of the stiffness of the springs. Eibachs are notably soft.
if you're really struggling with the decision get the ground control coilover sleeves with custom rates.
for a DD i'd probably go with 300 in the front and 600 in the rear or something around there.



yeah..thats should work.when i have money ill be loking for things that would work for me on dd/track. i heard good thing about eibach/progress+ d-spec...

Hasbro
08-05-2008, 12:28 AM
oh yeah,buddy clubs ep was simply nasty. i dont understand what mods are good for ep2,street/track wise....

Read up on what Mustclime and Zyzzx have written. Trust them.

Check this out, too: http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread/1778203

No offense but most people don't really know what they are talking about when it comes to suspension, including me and I've owned some serious cornering cars (Lotus', Ginetta, Elva, 77' track mini, etc.). I sort of have an orange belt instead of a black belt in suspension- I know enough to screw things up! I read racing suspension books and am designing/building my own car from scratch but I'm just not quite there yet as far as suspension goes.

It drives me nuts when people ask "What's the best suspension?". Decide exactly what you want from your suspension first. Track, autx, dd, a mix, budjet, etc., etc. Do your homework.

LAZARUS
08-05-2008, 01:00 AM
Read up on what Mustclime and Zyzzx have written. Trust them.

Check this out, too: http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread/1778203

No offense but most people don't really know what they are talking about when it comes to suspension, including me and I've owned some serious cornering cars (Lotus', Ginetta, Elva, 77' track mini, etc.). I sort of have an orange belt instead of a black belt in suspension- I know enough to screw things up! I read racing suspension books and am designing/building my own car from scratch but I'm just not quite there yet as far as suspension goes.

It drives me nuts when people ask "What's the best suspension?". Decide exactly what you want from your suspension first. Track, autx, dd, a mix, budjet, etc., etc. Do your homework.

nice threads,well guess it comes down to lower no more then 1.5 for dd/track.thanks for the site.

Soprano21
08-05-2008, 04:58 AM
i'd be very content with about a 1.5" drop. but does that mess up the LCAs?? and are you on the new EP specific teins or the EM ones?

EP spec

mustclime
08-05-2008, 07:47 AM
Read up on what Mustclime and Zyzzx have written. Trust them.

Check this out, too: http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread/1778203

No offense but most people don't really know what they are talking about when it comes to suspension, including me and I've owned some serious cornering cars (Lotus', Ginetta, Elva, 77' track mini, etc.). I sort of have an orange belt instead of a black belt in suspension- I know enough to screw things up! I read racing suspension books and am designing/building my own car from scratch but I'm just not quite there yet as far as suspension goes.

It drives me nuts when people ask "What's the best suspension?". Decide exactly what you want from your suspension first. Track, autx, dd, a mix, budjet, etc., etc. Do your homework.

I have given up on honda tech, way to many 14 year old experts.....here are a couple things to remember about after market springs....
1) 99.9% stock style springs are not going to be over 20% stiffer than your stock springs. The reason for this is if you put a really High rate spring on you stock damper, that damper will blow really quick, thats not good for bissness....This is why most dc5 stock style aftermarket springs are so much stiffer than the ep3 ones. The dc5 has much higher damping rates in stock form dampers.
2) All of aftermarket stock style springs for the ep3 and dc5 are progressive. Progressive springs get stiffer as they go through their travel....ie the first inch of suspension comperssion may be 200lbs, the next inch 250lbs and the next inch 300lbs and the last inch 350lbs for a average rate of 275lbs( note: I am using these numbers for example only!!!!). The problem with this is you only have a sweet spot in our front suspesion design of about 3 inchs in stock form, lowering the car reduces that and progressive rate springs let you "blow through" that sweet spot real quick.....

For the thread starter, change you wheels and tires first, then your dampes ,then your alinment, then your bushings, then your springs and finaly your sways.....

vboy127
08-05-2008, 11:27 AM
EP spec

How do they ride?


I have given up on honda tech, way to many 14 year old experts.....here are a couple things to remember about after market springs....
1) 99.9% stock style springs are not going to be over 20% stiffer than your stock springs. The reason for this is if you put a really High rate spring on you stock damper, that damper will blow really quick, thats not good for bissness....This is why most dc5 stock style aftermarket springs are so much stiffer than the ep3 ones. The dc5 has much higher damping rates in stock form dampers.
2) All of aftermarket stock style springs for the ep3 and dc5 are progressive. Progressive springs get stiffer as they go through their travel....ie the first inch of suspension comperssion may be 200lbs, the next inch 250lbs and the next inch 300lbs and the last inch 350lbs for a average rate of 275lbs( note: I am using these numbers for example only!!!!). The problem with this is you only have a sweet spot in our front suspesion design of about 3 inchs in stock form, lowering the car reduces that and progressive rate springs let you "blow through" that sweet spot real quick.....

For the thread starter, change you wheels and tires first, then your dampes ,then your alinment, then your bushings, then your springs and finaly your sways.....

What bushings am i supposed to be getting?

v1c10us
08-05-2008, 12:29 PM
I ordered the full suspension bushing kit from energy suspension
i think i got it off of showstoppersusa.com or crsx.com
i have only installed the bushings on the front LCA so far though so i cant comment on their worth.

Hasbro
08-05-2008, 01:13 PM
I have given up on honda tech, way to many 14 year old experts.....here are a couple things to remember about after market springs....


I agree. Same as many other Honda sites.

Soprano21
08-05-2008, 04:05 PM
How do they ride?



What bushings am i supposed to be getting?

rides great looks good too

LAZARUS
08-05-2008, 04:21 PM
I agree. Same as many other Honda sites.



ehhh, all sites have "kids" in them,some are just learning. in H-T theres some really smart auto-x guys that have spent years at the track.

Heitzke
08-05-2008, 06:43 PM
If you never drive your car to 10/10's then why spend all this time worrying about the perfect suspension setup? My suspension is far from ideal, but for my personal use it's great and feels better than stock. Does it actually handle better than stock? Probably, but it's been so long since i've been bone stock, who knows.

I'm lowered on Progress springs on HFP shocks, DC5R rear sway, full es suspension bushings and a neuspeed front ricebar. I'm also running 225/45 ES100's on 16x7 +40 slips and I personally think my car is a lot of fun. Not an ideal setup for overall suspension geometry perfection, but perfect for my needs.

my $.02

!@#$%
08-05-2008, 06:53 PM
If you never drive your car to 10/10's then why spend all this time worrying about the perfect suspension setup? My suspension is far from ideal, but for my personal use it's great and feels better than stock. Does it actually handle better than stock? Probably, but it's been so long since i've been bone stock, who knows.

I'm lowered on Progress springs on HFP shocks, DC5R rear sway, full es suspension bushings and a neuspeed front ricebar. I'm also running 225/45 ES100's on 16x7 +40 slips and I personally think my car is a lot of fun. Not an ideal setup for overall suspension geometry perfection, but perfect for my needs.

my $.02

Yup. There are probably only a few of us who can actually push the ep to it's physical ceiling. My progress springs are older than most people's ep's. It's a good product, but not something you want to have for lapping days if you're going nuts to the wall on a track.

llaprad1
08-05-2008, 07:38 PM
Oversteering isn't just sliding, it's helping the car rotate. For novices, 1 or 2 autocrosses will give you a good education on suspension issues, whether you want to race or not.

RS_man
08-05-2008, 08:52 PM
I agree with Blackout.




Dont be stupid about lowering the EP...

vboy127
08-05-2008, 09:44 PM
Yup. There are probably only a few of us who can actually push the ep to it's physical ceiling. My progress springs are older than most people's ep's. It's a good product, but not something you want to have for lapping days if you're going nuts to the wall on a track.


to be honest i don't plan on tracking it at all.. just some better handling and a sexy drop. :mangel:

v1c10us
08-06-2008, 12:03 AM
Oversteering isn't just sliding, it's helping the car rotate. For novices, 1 or 2 autocrosses will give you a good education on suspension issues, whether you want to race or not.

rotate and slide.. Im having difficult understanding the difference.
By defenition, over steering means that the car turns more than you intended, and understeer means it turns less than intended.
You can feel a cars tendency to either when you are not sliding just by the way it trys to pull itself out of line but you dont actually encounter either unless the wheels lose traction, if you've got the grip then the car is just steering.
Im sure there are technicalities you could get into that would prove me wrong in some way, but I dont want my car to rotate, i can go faster straight than i can in a turn and if i were in a RWD car i could take that turn faster than I could drift it.

mustclime
08-06-2008, 08:08 AM
it should be in theory yes, but i think the main reason that it handles better is becuase of the stiffness of the springs. Eibachs are notably soft.
if you're really struggling with the decision get the ground control coilover sleeves with custom rates.
for a DD i'd probably go with 300 in the front and 600 in the rear or something around there.

There are a couple things in this to comment on.
1) Springs are very important to the suspension but, the most important thing is the tires. Tires set the spring rates, not the other way around.
2) If you are going with GC and you want to use the 300lb ft and 600lb rear, make sure you get the 8 inch long 300lb springs for the front( they normanly come in 6 inch long springs). The 6 inch 300lbs springs will sag to much to get the proper ride hight even with the springs at the top of the purches. Any thing under 500lbs in the front needs to be 8 inch springs in the front to keep the drop from being to much....I am currently at 515lb X 6 inch springs in the front and I am at the purfect ride hight with the purches at the top of the threads, but the 515lb spring DO NOT SAG AT ALL.

If you are looking at a 10/10th full nuts suspension with custom spring rates, read this thread I put togather on another fourm......

http://forums.clubep3.net/showthread.php?t=565676

As for the bushings, Go with the energy suspension kit. It is a pia to install and you need to lube the bushings every 5-10,000 miles but you will be suprized at the change in how the car handles. What a lot of people do not realize is both the front and rear lca's on our cars have toe changing bushings in them. That is as you increase cornering loads, the ft bushings add toe in and the rears add toe out and this = more understeer and steering corrections in mid turn.

llaprad1
08-06-2008, 10:00 AM
rotate and slide.. Im having difficult understanding the difference.
By defenition, over steering means that the car turns more than you intended, and understeer means it turns less than intended.
You can feel a cars tendency to either when you are not sliding just by the way it trys to pull itself out of line but you dont actually encounter either unless the wheels lose traction, if you've got the grip then the car is just steering.
Im sure there are technicalities you could get into that would prove me wrong in some way, but I dont want my car to rotate, i can go faster straight than i can in a turn and if i were in a RWD car i could take that turn faster than I could drift it.

Slight oversteer feels more like the car is helping your steering response and less like the car is sliding.

At a constant speed, its better to oversteer and go where you are aiming, than understeer and go straight. Of course you can aim to do neither, but I bet your entry speed will be lower.

And it all depends on your experience level and what you're comfortable with.

MugsyTheGr8
08-06-2008, 10:33 AM
honestly, i think you would be fine with progress springs and a set of dampers. your just going to be using your car for the street so better for you would mean a stiffer than stock ride with a sporty feel. you will never push your car on the street (or you shouldn't i should say) to be able to experience its understeer/oversteer tendencies. not to take away from anything that anyone else is saying in this thread since its all true, but here in the suspension section, we have a tendency to think everyone is building a race car when all they really want is a nice dd.

v1c10us
08-06-2008, 01:52 PM
There are a couple things in this to comment on.
1) Springs are very important to the suspension but, the most important thing is the tires. Tires set the spring rates, not the other way around.
2) If you are going with GC and you want to use the 300lb ft and 600lb rear, make sure you get the 8 inch long 300lb springs for the front( they normanly come in 6 inch long springs). The 6 inch 300lbs springs will sag to much to get the proper ride hight even with the springs at the top of the purches. Any thing under 500lbs in the front needs to be 8 inch springs in the front to keep the drop from being to much....I am currently at 515lb X 6 inch springs in the front and I am at the purfect ride hight with the purches at the top of the threads, but the 515lb spring DO NOT SAG AT ALL.

If you are looking at a 10/10th full nuts suspension with custom spring rates, read this thread I put togather on another fourm......

http://forums.clubep3.net/showthread.php?t=565676

As for the bushings, Go with the energy suspension kit. It is a pia to install and you need to lube the bushings every 5-10,000 miles but you will be suprized at the change in how the car handles. What a lot of people do not realize is both the front and rear lca's on our cars have toe changing bushings in them. That is as you increase cornering loads, the ft bushings add toe in and the rears add toe out and this = more understeer and steering corrections in mid turn.

i have the bushing kit and only installed the front lca bushings cause it was such a Pain in the ass. I'm not very serious about autox, i usually go once a month just to see if i can beat my last time.
I have more fun competing against myself to see if I can improve versus competing with other people, cause I know my lightly modded car combined with my skill level isnt going to be competetive.
I've been autoxing with balled snowtires though haha.