Help picking a Subwoofer Amp

[rtc975]

Hey everyone,
I've got 2 10" McIntosh Labs MS100 Sub woofers and I need some help finding a reasonably priced amplifier for them.

These are mondo expensive subs and I was able to get them pretty cheap as they are 'blemished'. The McIntosh logo is not printed on the center of the cone / dust cap. I work about 3 miles away from McIntosh in Binghamton, NY and visit the place often. It's mind blowing when it comes to some of the stuff they put out.

2-Channel or Mono, I have no preference. I just want them driven as efficiently and safely as possible without breaking the bank. Priority is keeping them powered properly since there is no way in hell I can afford another pair at regular prices.

I do not listen to hip hop / rap or any of that stuff, however I do like good bottom end in my music (Metal, Rock, Blues & Jazz).

They are rated at the following power levels.

RMS - 4ohm 175w
Peak - 4ohm 300w
Sensitivity - 90db

McIntosh stuff is made to handle huge amounts of power so these are just guideline #'s.

Thanks!

[Stanz0r]

Hey everyone,
I've got 2 10" McIntosh Labs MS100 Sub woofers and I need some help finding a reasonably priced amplifier for them.

These are mondo expensive subs and I was able to get them pretty cheap as they are 'blemished'. The McIntosh logo is not printed on the center of the cone / dust cap. I work about 3 miles away from McIntosh in Binghamton, NY and visit the place often. It's mind blowing when it comes to some of the stuff they put out.

2-Channel or Mono, I have no preference. I just want them driven as efficiently and safely as possible without breaking the bank. Priority is keeping them powered properly since there is no way in hell I can afford another pair at regular prices.

I do not listen to hip hop / rap or any of that stuff, however I do like good bottom end in my music (Metal, Rock, Blues & Jazz).

They are rated at the following power levels.

RMS - 4ohm 175w
Peak - 4ohm 300w
Sensitivity - 90db

McIntosh stuff is made to handle huge amounts of power so these are just guideline #'s.

Thanks!

Nine.2x
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_22&products_id=47

600W x 1 @ 4 Ohm, 300W x 2 @ 2 Ohm
200W x 2 @ 4 Ohm

$250 + S&H

OR

Nine.1
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_22&products_id=44
450W x 1 @ 4 Ohm, 900W x 1 @ 2 Ohm
1200W x 1 @ 1 Ohm

[VegaS10]

Kicker 400.1 or 750.1 will do nicely.

[RON]

I am jealous! McIntosh... BALLIN! I say bite the bullet and get a MC amp too! Then you would pretty much take the cake!

Can you post some pics?

VEGAS: you can't use a Kicker amp on a McIntosh Sub... it would be.... well I don't know what to compare it too, but something not good! LOL

[03Si757]

Cant go wrong with an ALpine amp. The MRP-M500 Is a good option to look at aswell.

[rtc975]

Yeah Ron i'll get some pics up later tonight when i have a minute.

[VegaS10]

VEGAS: you can't use a Kicker amp on a McIntosh Sub... it would be.... well I don't know what to compare it too, but something not good! LOL

Care to explain?

I'm all ears for this one....

[Princess]

I would see what's on sale then make my choice.

generally though I like JL products

[RON]

Care to explain?

I'm all ears for this one....

I was joking more or less! You don't see many people with McIntosh stuff. McIntosh in my opinion is like the Ferrari of audio... Kicker is like a Ford Mustang... Lost of useable power, high volume quantity build, nothing to special or rare but good! Something you get when you need a everyday amp! It wasn't meant to put Kicker down, but I think in the amp department... EVERYONE would agree McIntosh is in the upper echolons of amps! Not saying you get the best bang for your buck, but McIntosh have that "holy shit" factor!

[rtc975]

I was joking more or less! You don't see many people with McIntosh stuff. McIntosh in my opinion is like the Ferrari of audio... Kicker is like a Ford Mustang... Lost of useable power, high volume quantity build, nothing to special or rare but good! Something you get when you need a everyday amp! It wasn't meant to put Kicker down, but I think in the amp department... EVERYONE would agree McIntosh is in the upper echolons of amps! Not saying you get the best bang for your buck, but McIntosh have that "holy shit" factor!

Couldn't have said it better RON.

I would give just about anything to be able to afford a McIntosh amp for these subs. However, a 4 month old baby girl and a $2k / month mortgage kind of gets in the way of that idea.

I've been looking around and stumpled upon a MTX JackHammer amp that fits the power requirements of these subs pretty good and is at a decent price.

What's the word on the MTX brand these days? I used their old Blue Thunder series 10 years ago in High School and they were pretty decent for the $$$ back then.

[VegaS10]

Topics like this make my head hurt.

Class D mono amps all "sound" the same. Period. Class D is not made to sound good. Class D is made to make power. Class D amps lack all the noise filtering that class AB full range amps require. That is one reason class D amps are so much smaller, cheaper, efficient and powerful. They only make power below..say...150hZ.

You could take a Pyramid 400 watt class D amp and a Mcintosh 400 watt class D amp, hook them up to the same sub, set the gains to get the same power, and both amps will "sound" the same.

What seperates the Pyramid from the McIntosh is the quality, size, features, and of course...price.

Now, class AB amps, or full range amps are a WHOLE different story.



To add: The new JackHammer amps are great. MTX is one of the few companies whose quality has actually improved over the last few years. Good stuff.

[rtc975]

Pictures...

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/4280/img0385640sc0.jpg

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/9053/img0386640za9.jpg

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/951/img0387640eb1.jpg

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/5849/img0390640du1.jpg

[RON]

Topics like this make my head hurt.

Class D mono amps all "sound" the same. Period. Class D is not made to sound good. Class D is made to make power. Class D amps lack all the noise filtering that class AB full range amps require. That is one reason class D amps are so much smaller, cheaper, efficient and powerful. They only make power below..say...150hZ.

You could take a Pyramid 400 watt class D amp and a Mcintosh 400 watt class D amp, hook them up to the same sub, set the gains to get the same power, and both amps will "sound" the same.

What seperates the Pyramid from the McIntosh is the quality, size, features, and of course...price.

Now, class AB amps, or full range amps are a WHOLE different story.



To add: The new JackHammer amps are great. MTX is one of the few companies whose quality has actually improved over the last few years. Good stuff.

I always liked MTX... I am in the process of trying to a large old school amp (MTX, Rockford, Artseries) for a sub in my new ride. My only problem with the NEW MTX stuff coming out is it really isn't pleasing to the eyes (fins for fans, gloss black and a chicken wire grill). The one thing that make the Jackhammer series good though (IMO) is the ability to stack. Which if your running 2-4 amps would look sick!

McIntosh, Zapco, Audison, ID - if I had money that is the brands I would want!

[RON]

Couldn't have said it better RON.

I would give just about anything to be able to afford a McIntosh amp for these subs. However, a 4 month old baby girl and a $2k / month mortgage kind of gets in the way of that idea.

I've been looking around and stumpled upon a MTX JackHammer amp that fits the power requirements of these subs pretty good and is at a decent price.

What's the word on the MTX brand these days? I used their old Blue Thunder series 10 years ago in High School and they were pretty decent for the $$$ back then.

That is a beautiful sub! I know what its like to be straped for cash!

Not all of us are Ballin like VEGAS and his four car garage filled with pimped out hatches! LOL

[Chad]

Topics like this make my head hurt.

Get out your Advil :D


Class D mono amps all "sound" the same. Period. Class D is not made to sound good. Class D is made to make power. Class D amps lack all the noise filtering that class AB full range amps require.

Please explain this "filtering" that Class AB amplifiers require, when in fact Class D (PWM from here on out) actually have and require MUCH more filtering to get rid of switching artifacts. They indeed have MUCH more "noise filtering"


That is one reason class D amps are so much smaller, cheaper, efficient and powerful. They only make power below..say...150hZ.

Negative Ghostrider, tell that to the designer of the Crown iTech, Powersoft amplifiers, QSC powerlight, Sonic Impact, Lap Gruppen the list goes on and on ;)

Some of the new self-oscillating designs REALLY kickass, there's a fellow working on some of those for car audio as we speak :mtongue:


You could take a Pyramid 400 watt class D amp and a Mcintosh 400 watt class D amp, hook them up to the same sub, set the gains to get the same power, and both amps will "sound" the same.

I concur there.


What seperates the Pyramid from the McIntosh is the quality, size, features, and of course...price.

Quality of design is what comes into play, some are just shitty designs that turn into flame throwers, we have all seen it. Due to the speed and nature that a PWM amplifier section operates it takes one simple slip in tolerance and those FETs go crashing into each other with great "force." Unlike many AB amplifier designs they fail in a spectacular manner. Even in an AB car amp there is a PWM section for the Bipolar power supplies for both the low voltage and rail voltage, most of the pics we have seen of them flaming on are in the power supply section, AB amplifier sections usually fail relatively gracefully. A poorly designed PWM amplifier section can be pretty amazing, and using filter networks onthe ass end of them that contain less than ideal quality components can often times point to the issues, 9 of 10 PWM amp repairs I have done were there because of poor PASSIVE component quality and failure results from lack of component tolerance or the tolerance slipping with age.


Now, class AB amps, or full range amps are a WHOLE different story.

An amplifier no longer has to be AB to be full range, this myth stopped 15 years ago in professional audio and about 5 years ago in car audio, Amplifiers like the Alpine PDX, The "Newer" Lanzar Optidrive, The new JL stuff are all PWM Full Range amplifiers. What happened, and I involuntarily got to see the progression of this, is that the devices used for switching got faster, cheaper, and more robust, a lot of technology was borrowed from he broadcast industry where they use PWM amplification for FM transmitters (100MHZ, not below 150HZ)




To add: The new JackHammer amps are great. MTX is one of the few companies whose quality has actually improved over the last few years. Good stuff.

I have to agree, I've never really had an issue with MTX amps in general, They got sketchy in the early 2K's but they are back in line mow, and even my early 2K versions are doing fine I just don't care for the internal design sometimes.

Chad

[VegaS10]

I'm not going to even try quoting all that.

Car audio has always been behind compared to pro audio. I no longer really keep track of the pro side any more.

When the class D stuff first came out back in the late 90's with MMATT's, it was a hit for the SPL world. They had HORRIBLE problems with filtering and it was very common to be able to watch the sub tremble while the amp was "idle".

U.S. Amps was HUGE in the scene (I'm referencing (GD early morning spelling) late 90's still) and was one of the top brands. Their signal was crystal clear, monsterous power output, and no issues of fluttering while at idle.

During the 99,00 and 2001 dB Drag seasons, it was almost a class D vs. class AB battle. The class D guys could do similar scores with smaller amps, less batteries and still be competitive. BUT, they were popping amps left and right. If I had a dime for every MTX 1000D I saw smoking I'd be a richer man.

Eventually, people realized that "Hey, I don't need clean sound to be loud, just power".....which slowly killed the class AB design in db Drag.

Now, the whole PWM thing has come along and advanced, and there are some companies that have tried using class D in full range, and there was even a breif time for a class T by US Amps, which failed due to price and low demand.

But in the beginning, the class D took off because of price and size.

The MMATT's D300 was litteraly 1/3rd the size of a US Amps 2000X. The MMATT's did the same power and was roughly 35% more efficient. That may not be much, but when you are running a dozen of these amps, it really ads up.

Not saying you are wrong Chad, I'm just adding some historical background...lol

[Chad]

I'm not going to even try quoting all that.

Car audio has always been behind compared to pro audio. I no longer really keep track of the pro side any more.

When the class D stuff first came out back in the late 90's with MMATT's, it was a hit for the SPL world. They had HORRIBLE problems with filtering and it was very common to be able to watch the sub tremble while the amp was "idle".

U.S. Amps was HUGE in the scene (I'm referencing (GD early morning spelling) late 90's still) and was one of the top brands. Their signal was crystal clear, monsterous power output, and no issues of fluttering while at idle.

During the 99,00 and 2001 dB Drag seasons, it was almost a class D vs. class AB battle. The class D guys could do similar scores with smaller amps, less batteries and still be competitive. BUT, they were popping amps left and right. If I had a dime for every MTX 1000D I saw smoking I'd be a richer man.

Eventually, people realized that "Hey, I don't need clean sound to be loud, just power".....which slowly killed the class AB design in db Drag.

Now, the whole PWM thing has come along and advanced, and there are some companies that have tried using class D in full range, and there was even a breif time for a class T by US Amps, which failed due to price and low demand.

But in the beginning, the class D took off because of price and size.

The MMATT's D300 was litteraly 1/3rd the size of a US Amps 2000X. The MMATT's did the same power and was roughly 35% more efficient. That may not be much, but when you are running a dozen of these amps, it really ads up.

Not saying you are wrong Chad, I'm just adding some historical background...lol

Oh i totally see where you are coming from, here's my history leson, the Peavey DPC amplifier. :mfrown:

It was 1 rack-space, fully PWM, packed a bunch of power, and weighed very little. It was ahead of it's time, and that was it's down-fall :mwink:

When i worked in Service our Service center took on ALL of the amplifier reapirs for a nationwide DJ service, they had a shit-ton of rigs... all powered with..... you guessed it :mcry: Have mercy :mcry:

I have seen every damn failure they can make, I got so intamate with those damn thngs that the company techs would call me with questions. And yes, as you have seen in the early car designs, weird speaker failures, obscene noises, cones fluttering, oh yeah! The output filter sections just could not hold it together, they had to be hand tuned and when the tuning slipped it could casue stress ou the outputs along with weird noises and oscillation, NOW tack that un-tuned filter to a passive crossover (yet another filter wtih a RLC figure) and all hell breaks loose. Oh yeah, i know where you are coming from :mbiggrin:

[rtc975]

fantastic info guys...