can I mount my amps upside down?

[SiN05]

Thats my question to all of the audio guru's. I just got a Alpine MRV-F545 (an upgrade in power from the MRV-F345 that I have)and I also have a MRD-605. (quick back story) I work at a reading truck bodies and we fab-up bodies using sheet metal. So I'd like to fab-up a new deck lid probably outta aluminum with reinforcing. So with that said i'd like to get these amps off the floor so I have more room in the hatch. My original plan was to mount the amps up side down but some people have told me that you cant. Input?

[james04si]

yup no issues. amps dont care what orientation they are in just so long as the heatsinks are not covered or fans blocked.

[coastiejack]

yup no issues. amps dont care what orientation they are in just so long as the heatsinks are not covered or fans blocked.

samething i was going to say... so long as it ca breathe it will function properly

[SiN05]

thats what I was thinking because it doesnt say that I can't in the manual

[VegaS10]

Heatsinks are made to dissipate heat.

Most companies plan on people installing the amp normal, meaning it's heatsink is upwards.

By flipping the amp over, the heat will stay inside the amp, not allowing it to cool properly.

Can you do it?

Yes. But, take a few precautions and make sure there is a fan or two moving air across them.

[james04si]

Heatsinks are made to dissipate heat.

Most companies plan on people installing the amp normal, meaning it's heatsink is upwards.

By flipping the amp over, the heat will stay inside the amp, not allowing it to cool properly.

Can you do it?

Yes. But, take a few precautions and make sure there is a fan or two moving air across them.


so what your saying is that you cant mount an amp upright either right? I mean its not allowing the heat to escape from the one side. Seriously orientation means nothing to a heatsink. the fets are mounted to the bottom side of the heatsink not the actual fins half the time. All that matters is that the heat is dissapated to the aluminum fins which then has airspace or the fans in the amp that blow over them to cool them. theres no need to nickpick on a couple degrees of possible lost cooling. if that were true all amps mounted in trunks would die prematurly because the heat of the trunk is greater than inside the car.

[MR.Pizza]

Not a great idea to mount passively cooled amps upside down, will it work? probably.... For the reasons stated earlier here, hot air rises from the passive heat sinks and therefore moves air across them. If the amp is mounted in such a way as to prevent the flow of air (such as the top of your trunk) it would be at risk of thermal damage. Perhaps mounting it sideways is an option.

[RON]

so what your saying is that you cant mount an amp upright either right? I mean its not allowing the heat to escape from the one side. Seriously orientation means nothing to a heatsink. the fets are mounted to the bottom side of the heatsink not the actual fins half the time. All that matters is that the heat is dissapated to the aluminum fins which then has airspace or the fans in the amp that blow over them to cool them. theres no need to nickpick on a couple degrees of possible lost cooling. if that were true all amps mounted in trunks would die prematurly because the heat of the trunk is greater than inside the car.

I agree that were probably talking about maybe 10 degrees, but he asked if it would cause any issues. Vegas's statment is correct.... The amp would be running hotter.

[VegaS10]

so what your saying is that you cant mount an amp upright either right?

For all I care you can mount the amp under shag carpet with a dead pony laying on it.

It's odd, next time you buy an amp, read that piece of paper you normally throw away. It's called an "owner's manual". You'd be surprised at all the crazy stuff they have to say. I mean hell, they MIGHT know what they are talking about.

Mounting ANY amp in any position other than "flat and horizontal" will result in higher operating temperatures. Period. Any other position, it's reccomended to add fans or other means of airflow.

Will it kill the amp to mount it vertically?.....no.

Will fans help?...yes.

[oneglory]

my amp has a fan built in. Handy little feature.

[Chad]

Shit, make sure the new Aluminum deck lid is completely isolated from chassis, slather heatsink grease on it and make the whole damn deck lid a heatsink :D

[RON]

Shit, make sure the new Aluminum deck lid is completely isolated from chassis, slather heatsink grease on it and make the whole damn deck lid a heatsink :D

LOL:mbiggrin:

[james04si]

Mounting ANY amp in any position other than "flat and horizontal" will result in higher operating temperatures. Period. Any other position, it's reccomended to add fans or other means of airflow.

Will it kill the amp to mount it vertically?.....no.

Will fans help?...yes.

You may notice that any amp typically has the fins on the sides not the top or the bottom. thats because the heat producing cirucitry is mounted to the back side of those fins. So if there are no fins on the top or very few the cooling capacity of that area is much less than the areas where there are fins. and for the matter of this whole conversation almost all modern amps if not all of them come with overheat circuitry to prevent it from running too hot. The only time I have ever had an amp shut down was in my jeep where the amps are under plexiglass and I had no top on in a 100+ degree day. I dont think the manual said anything about that as an issue.

[MR.Pizza]

There is a very good reason not to mount or install your expensive electronics incorrectly. The fact that you have an experience where you mounted an amp in a sealed area and it shut off because it was hot leads me to believe you should not be giving advise on mounting locations and heat sink design.

Passive heatsinks rely on the hot air moving across them and rising thus carrying it away, then drawing cooler air from around the amp kind of like a pump. An amp that is mounted upside down in an enclosed space will not force hot air away from it too draw in cool because hot air is not carried away. In fact it builds up and will eventually cause either thermal overload or a failure. The cause of the failure is not due to amp orientation but because the amp is mounted to the high point.

Good advise is to stay away from mounting your passively cooled electronics in such a way as to defeat their design.

[james04si]

There is a very good reason not to mount or install your expensive electronics incorrectly. The fact that you have an experience where you mounted an amp in a sealed area and it shut off because it was hot leads me to believe you should not be giving advise on mounting locations and heat sink design.

Passive heatsinks rely on the hot air moving across them and rising thus carrying it away, then drawing cooler air from around the amp kind of like a pump. An amp that is mounted upside down in an enclosed space will not force hot air away from it too draw in cool because hot air is not carried away. In fact it builds up and will eventually cause either thermal overload or a failure. The cause of the failure is not due to amp orientation but because the amp is mounted to the high point.

Good advise is to stay away from mounting your passively cooled electronics in such a way as to defeat their design.


Maybe you missed my comment. The amp was in a jeep with no shade from the sun at over 100 degrees. the internal temp of the space was well over 120 degrees even with the fans a blowing( they are on a thermostat and relay that turns on any time the chamber gets above 90 degrees. Black heatsink+direct sunlight+over 100 degrees=hot ass amp no matter what you do. why do you think on a very hot day if you touch your black car its hot as hell? My point in that statement is that there is thermal protection to prevent damage. I dont really care anymore about convincing someone that is dead set against doing it, because they have never tried and always followed what the manufacturer recomends for everything. thank god I have a logical mind and can think for myself on amp placement and what is acceptable. Because without people who can think for themselves there would be no good ideas or space saving ideas like the first person was asking about. God forbid yes there is additonal risk of damage but when you take in the minimal risk an additional 1% or so its well worth it to save some space, its not like saying if you mount it upside down it will not work or its going to die within x amount of days. I bet your one of the people who say you cant mount an amp to the speaker box too.

[dj addicted]

here is the end all answers...

Do it!!! If your shit blows up, maybe it wasn't the best idea

Do it!!! If your shit doesn't blow up, maybe it was a good idea.

There problem solved.

[Chad]

here is the end all answers...

Do it!!! If your shit blows up, maybe it wasn't the best idea

Do it!!! If your shit doesn't blow up, maybe it was a good idea.

There problem solved.

My Kinda Guy :mcool:

On a more serious note, it depends on the heatsink design of the amplifier and how things are laid out. For example a JL has heatsinks on one side, designed to be mounted ass down, mounted ass up the transistors still face the same direction and convection currents are STILL HINDERED although upside down MAY BE BETTER in that instance.

Some amps have the heatsinks on either side with fins that run horizontal, ideally (although the amp makers don't tell you this) you want them mounted on their END because the air will flow over the entire heatsink area with little to no turbulence as if they were mounted "properly" I'm sure we have all seen competition cars mounted this way and never wondered why.

Until we know the whole story we cannot pass judgment.

As for utilizing the thermal protection, bad idea, it's there for PROTECTION not as a feature, if you are consistently thermalling out your amp you have an install issue or did not bring enough beer to the party.

Chad

[v1c10us]

lets pretend there is no breeze and you have equal air pressure on the inside and the outside of an amp.
You have a source creating heat with a heatsink on top to dissipate it, the air around the heatsink will heat up via convection and radiation. This air will expand and exit the amp through the most upperly exit sucking cool air in through the bottommost exit.
This will occur regaurdless of the direction the amp is.
However, it will be much more efficient if the hot air can both rise and expand instead of just expand. or you can simply put an exhaust fan on the damn thing.

[Chad]

It's most efficient when the convection currents can be induced over the entire area of the heatsink.

[MR.Pizza]

Maybe you missed my comment. The amp was in a jeep with no shade from the sun at over 100 degrees. the internal temp of the space was well over 120 degrees even with the fans a blowing( they are on a thermostat and relay that turns on any time the chamber gets above 90 degrees. Black heatsink+direct sunlight+over 100 degrees=hot ass amp no matter what you do. why do you think on a very hot day if you touch your black car its hot as hell? My point in that statement is that there is thermal protection to prevent damage. I dont really care anymore about convincing someone that is dead set against doing it, because they have never tried and always followed what the manufacturer recomends for everything. thank god I have a logical mind and can think for myself on amp placement and what is acceptable. Because without people who can think for themselves there would be no good ideas or space saving ideas like the first person was asking about. God forbid yes there is additonal risk of damage but when you take in the minimal risk an additional 1% or so its well worth it to save some space, its not like saying if you mount it upside down it will not work or its going to die within x amount of days. I bet your one of the people who say you cant mount an amp to the speaker box too.

Make your own choice about how you want to install your stuff if you know the risks involved and choose too ignore them, but recommending them to others here without first explaining the risk is bad advise. As far as the assumption of 1% risk I hardly believe that to be an accurate number. I say that any amp that exceeded it's thermal limit regularly would be at high risk for failure quite quickly. Not saying this will be the case in the OP situation but if he's asking the question he should at least know what to consider.

[RON]

Maybe you missed my comment. The amp was in a jeep with no shade from the sun at over 100 degrees. the internal temp of the space was well over 120 degrees even with the fans a blowing( they are on a thermostat and relay that turns on any time the chamber gets above 90 degrees. Black heatsink+direct sunlight+over 100 degrees=hot ass amp no matter what you do. why do you think on a very hot day if you touch your black car its hot as hell? My point in that statement is that there is thermal protection to prevent damage. I dont really care anymore about convincing someone that is dead set against doing it, because they have never tried and always followed what the manufacturer recomends for everything. thank god I have a logical mind and can think for myself on amp placement and what is acceptable. Because without people who can think for themselves there would be no good ideas or space saving ideas like the first person was asking about. God forbid yes there is additonal risk of damage but when you take in the minimal risk an additional 1% or so its well worth it to save some space, its not like saying if you mount it upside down it will not work or its going to die within x amount of days. I bet your one of the people who say you cant mount an amp to the speaker box too.

The problem here is that you are making suggestions and you are not painting the whole picture. We have some experts in the audio field that roam this board. So they are all about FACT! Not generalizations.

[v1c10us]

It's most efficient when the convection currents can be induced over the entire area of the heatsink.

Indeed, this is why convection ovens cook so much faster than radiation ovens, it works in both directions, so if you have an amp that has a tendency to go into thermal protect your best bet is you mount it face up so you can allow the pressure differentials to create some convection currents, as well as the fact that heat rises.
If that still isn't working cut a 20mm hole in your amp and put a 20mm fan there to make your own convection currents.
If you are worried about dust build up make it an exhaust fan, if you dont give a fuck make it an intake fan.
I've worked on overclocking computers for several years and have managed to squeeze 4.8 ghz out of a 2.2 ghz processor using liquid cooling and I know what happens to electronics when it gets hot; it stops working, or in my case it melts your motherboard.
the amount of heat amps put out compared to the amount of cooling they recieve puts this as a fairly high concern in my mind.

edit: oh yeah and about mounting an amp to a speaker box, dont do it.
Its bad enough to begin with but when you combine that with high heat the massive vibration has a good chance to fuck stuff up. It's less of a problem with modern amps because most of them seem to be fairly well crafted with good solder joints etc etc, but dont risk it, just hide the thing, it'll look better and be safe for the amp.

[Chad]

Indeed, this is why convection ovens cook so much faster than radiation ovens, it works in both directions, so if you have an amp that has a tendency to go into thermal protect your best bet is you mount it face up so you can allow the pressure differentials to create some convection currents, as well as the fact that heat rises.


Again, we are making a VERY broad assessment of the amplifier in question as to it's heatsink geometry, until we know what amplifier then we are shot.

Edit DUUUHHH, re-read the first post, off to ampguts now to check it out.

[Chad]

http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/Alpine_MRV-F545/

The Finals are mounted to a die that is in turn mounted to the chassis, the chassis has fans that bring air around and thru the cooling fins.

If you aren't running it like a raped ape I'd say it's fine to mount it inverted.

Fans ain't gonna do squat till we find out the direction and amount of airflow of the internal fans. Contrary to some computer folks push/pull CAN be a bad thing.

Let's see how Nashville reacts to that statement, it could be a fun topic :D

[james04si]

We have some experts in the audio field that roam this board. So they are all about FACT! Not generalizations.


and who here would you be referring to? and what makes them an expert? must you be an installer to be considered expert? at that point do you consider a best buy installer to be expert? do you require certification on the field? Or does it just boil down to the people who talk the most on this specific forum. I for one feel I am adept at what I do. I have been a SPL competitor and have since moved over to the good side with SQ though only one regional competition. I did place either first or second at any local USAC competition in the 301-600 watt class. I did place 3rd at the USAC regional finals a few years ago in that same class. I did receive a letter inviting me to finals on 2 seperate occasions (the years I did compete 01-02) but did not go because I would not have placed in the top 4 or 5 which to me would have been a waste of money to enter. I may not be an expert but I think you should not doubt that I am the run of the mill prick that think he know something when I do in fact know a thing or 2.

[Chad]

and who here would you be referring to? and what makes them an expert? must you be an installer to be considered expert? at that point do you consider a best buy installer to be expert? do you require certification on the field? Or does it just boil down to the people who talk the most on this specific forum. I for one feel I am adept at what I do. I have been a SPL competitor and have since moved over to the good side with SQ though only one regional competition. I did place either first or second at any local USAC competition in the 301-600 watt class. I did place 3rd at the USAC regional finals a few years ago in that same class. I did receive a letter inviting me to finals on 2 seperate occasions (the years I did compete 01-02) but did not go because I would not have placed in the top 4 or 5 which to me would have been a waste of money to enter. I may not be an expert but I think you should not doubt that I am the run of the mill prick that think he know something when I do in fact know a thing or 2.

No offense, but winning a competition or two does not make you an expert in thermodynamics.

I design, build, and implement audio gear to last the long haul, I do not farm out to the Chinese,I build it right here, and it works, nearly forever 24/7/365 including public safety applications. I have designed, manufactured, and sold out gear designs for the professional audio industry.

I design and build audio systems for recording studios, concert venues, lecture halls and simple classrooms, prior I have 10 years touring experience as a FOH, monitor, and systems engineer, A1.

As of now I am chief engineer for 12 recording studios, 5 lecture halls, and 63 classrooms at a Big 10 university.

You ain't gonna slide nothing past me.

I just happen to drive an EP3 :mtongue:

[v1c10us]

They're likely 20mm fans, due to noise constraints they most likely put out no more than 10CFM per fan.
How many fans are in it?
I saw 2 from the picture on ampguts, I think they were on the top underneath the silver plate, most likely intake fans.
What I would do is mount a higher end 20mm or if you could fit it, a 40mm fan on the the side of the amp that creates the most heat mounted as exhaust fans to draw cool air in the top and blow it by the hot components and then exhaust out the side.
If the pre exsisting fans are exhaust fans I would do the same thing but mount the fan as an intake fan.

[Chad]

They're likely 20mm fans, due to noise constraints they most likely put out no more than 10CFM per fan.

For cooling a chunk of Al that big for non-SPL issues, that works


How many fans are in it?

It appears two....


I saw 2 from the picture on ampguts, I think they were on the top, most likely intake fans.

We don't know which way they are blowing but again that does not make a difference at this point.


What I would do is mount a higher end 20mm or if you could fit it,

Good call


a 40mm fan on the the side of the amp that creates the most heat mounted as exhaust fans to draw cool air in the top and blow it by the hot components and then exhaust out the side.

See there's the computer guy coming out. The dies mount to an heatsink that has the most amount of area UNDER the beauty area, the internal fans dissipate cool air over these fins, in (or out) the top out (or in) the bottom circumference. WE DON"T KNOW WHICH WAY THEY BLOW YET.


If the pre existing fans are exhaust fans I would do the same thing but mount the fan as an intake fan.


See, here's the deal, 20+20MM does not at all equal 40MM, never will. Intake/exhaust only causes flow issues in the fact that it can over-run the internal fans causing the to spin faster and burn up (yes it does happen, they GOTTA have resistance) and IF the airflow is matches and IF the designer had his chops up, too much airflow causes hot pockets and can cause hot spots. IT happens inside computers too, you should try some thermal imaging sometime with a computer running ballz out and different fan configs. On the other side, too little push and not enough pull is just that, an amp in a room that is building heat. Just because you have guzinta and cumzata does not mean it's doing an efficient job of cooling.

I still firmly believe that amp can be mounted upside-down with no issues.

[MR.Pizza]

yup no issues. amps dont care what orientation they are in just so long as the heatsinks are not covered or fans blocked.

NUff ssaid

[Chad]

NUff ssaid

Agreed, with the exception of extreme situations, and that's splittin' hairs :mwink:

[v1c10us]

Im not too concerned about the inside of my computer, Processor temperatures hover at around 70degrees farenheit under full load, other important components hover at around 80 with the exception of my dual graphics cards which go at around 75. I have 4 intake fans and 4 exhaust fans that move roughly 400CFM total and out of my 5 temperature sensors not one of them have ever seen a temperature over 98 degrees which is quite safe.
In the winter when the heater is on the air exiting the computer is cooler than the air going in.

I suppose amps are different than computers because in a computer you really want to isolate your cooling, certain aspects don't generate heat, certain aspects dont need to be cold.
I suppose in the case of this amp since it isn't overheating to begin with you wouldn't need to get too intensive.
Pop out those 2 20mm fans and replace with a 60mm fan of variable speeds. You'll increase airflow without much noise. Im not sure what kind of electrical interference this can provide though as far as sound quality.
I guess I'm just a Go big or go home guy, you probably dont need to do anything to the amp, but why not?

[james04si]

No offense, but winning a competition or two does not make you an expert in thermodynamics.

I design, build, and implement audio gear to last the long haul, I do not farm out to the Chinese,I build it right here, and it works, nearly forever 24/7/365 including public safety applications. I have designed, manufactured, and sold out gear designs for the professional audio industry.

I design and build audio systems for recording studios, concert venues, lecture halls and simple classrooms, prior I have 10 years touring experience as a FOH, monitor, and systems engineer, A1.

As of now I am chief engineer for 12 recording studios, 5 lecture halls, and 63 classrooms at a Big 10 university.

You ain't gonna slide nothing past me.

I just happen to drive an EP3 :mtongue:

Sir in no way did I mean to place any offence to you. I see you post and agree with you on most if not all issues( I didnt see you disagree with what I said) Others here seem to speak from what they are told by others and probably have never actually mounted an amp upside down before. I have before and have never heard of anyone that has had issues with them mounted in this way. Now maybe somewhere some time someone may have known someone that had an amp that was mounted upside down and it blew. I dont in any way contest that. I do however believe that they did not send it to an individual such as yourself who could diagnose and say yup its because it was mounted upside down and got too hot. Chad I see your skills I have read and looked at your install since the first time you posted that god auful looking ported box with the ports on the exterior :mbiggrin:, and yes if memory serves me correct they are externally mounted because that box was originally a sealed boxI(please dont hate me if my memory is failing and it was really designed that way). I and you both have probably seen the people who talk the right talk and say everything that someone tells you to say or a magazine says. Few people here have tested and tried, and failed sometimes all in the name of learning more than what your friend said or the installer or that car audio/auto sound and security magazine tells you.


And for the record I hold no degrees in thermaldynamics but comprehend what a heatsink is for, which sadly in the car audio the large ones are just to make you think you are getting a better amp half the time.

[VegaS10]

I have a feeling I'm one of the "others" James is speaking of.

After being an installer for the past 14-15 years (I'm 34), I've seen some pretty crazy shit, including several customers from a now defunct local shop who used to mount amps upside down RELIGIOUSLY.

Those idiots used to mount them on the underside of the rear deck on about 50% of they cars they did. 4 channels, sub amps, processors, you name it, they mounted it there.

Customers would roll up to us wondering why their amps kept shutting off. They popped the trunk, look up and see amps upside down.

Pull the amp down, all impedences check fine, properly grounded, heatsink warm, bottom plate (now top plate) was blazing hot. I explain to the customer how heat rises and the heat is going back through the circuit board and sitting there.

Charge the customer to move the amps, mount them properly, etc. Never had amp problems again.

I mean, it may be first hand experience from 1999-2002, but it's still something I dealt with and fixed.

Your amp may do just fine, but from my hands on experience I would'nt do it.

[RON]

I have a feeling I'm one of the "others" James is speaking of.

After being an installer for the past 14-15 years (I'm 34), I've seen some pretty crazy shit, including several customers from a now defunct local shop who used to mount amps upside down RELIGIOUSLY.

Those idiots used to mount them on the underside of the rear deck on about 50% of they cars they did. 4 channels, sub amps, processors, you name it, they mounted it there.

Customers would roll up to us wondering why their amps kept shutting off. They popped the trunk, look up and see amps upside down.

Pull the amp down, all impedences check fine, properly grounded, heatsink warm, bottom plate (now top plate) was blazing hot. I explain to the customer how heat rises and the heat is going back through the circuit board and sitting there.

Charge the customer to move the amps, mount them properly, etc. Never had amp problems again.

I mean, it may be first hand experience from 1999-2002, but it's still something I dealt with and fixed.

Your amp may do just fine, but from my hands on experience I would'nt do it.

One of the "others"! LOL

[VegaS10]

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w234/JoeLostHeroes1/others.jpg

The other "others"?

[RON]

the other "others"?

lol

[MR.Pizza]

:closed_2:

[v1c10us]

http://www.worldslargestpuzzle.com/images/the-lost-beachball.jpg