timing chain problems

[big kitty]

first off let me say hey to everyone out there, i have a few little problems and i used the search bar and didnt really find much so here goes. i have an 02 ep3 with the standard k20a3 with a K&N intake, and DC headers, only thing after market on the engine. yesterday i was driving down the road and everything was fine, i pushed the car a little hard through the corners but everything still seemed perfectly fine when i got home, the next morning i went to start the car and it will barely idle, it will stay running if you keep the gas on (i didnt for more than a sec) then it threw a bunch of codes, p3000-p3004, misfires on all cylinders, so i pulled the valve cover and saw my black links on my timing chain jumped 10 teeth toward the intake side, now im trying to reset the chain and i have a few questions, 1. can i do it with the engine in? ive already started that way but stop my if its a bad idea, 2. i cant get the damn timing cover off, i have all the bolts out and am following the service manual, stuck, gasket? whats good that wont hurt the engine to get that baby off, 3. how do i prevent this in the future and how did it jump 10 teeth? thank you in advice for all of your help. and i apologize if this is in the wrong place.

[Canuck Civic]

What do mean black links jumped it takes many revolutions to get them to line up again. I don't know how you jumped timing better look at the tensioner too. Yes you can do this in car not actually to hard really.

Did you remember the bolts going through the oil pan to the timing chain cover. Basically carefully pry with a screw driver it shouldn't be to hard it is just a sealant on there no gasket.

[big kitty]

i kinda figured it was just a gasket, from what i understand it is pretty rare for your chain to jump teeth, is the tensioner controled with oil pressure? cause it was low on oil, could the tensioner not have enough pressure to keep it tight and i jumped? and one last question, do those chains strech to the point where i should replace it? i thought they were good for a few hundred thousand miles but this out of time thing has me questioning that, thanks for the reply

[big kitty]

sorry i should clear that last post question, the black links jumped teeth, 10 to be exact, the black links on the chain that line up with the dots on both cams signaling the chain is in time were off by 10 teeth toward the intake side of the engine, making it far from correct timing, at TDC both timing marks on the cams were facing up, both cams were at the same position, (ei. one wasnt timing mark up and the other off a bit, both timing marks were up at the same angle at TDC)

[Canuck Civic]

Yes oil pressure does help add extra tension on it. But sometimes the tensioner fails. I'm not to experienced but I think the tensioner plays a bigger role then the chain for jumping. Just be thankful you didn't jump while driving possible piston to valve action. I would do a compression test after you fix the timing.

The chain can stretch over time. I believe on k20a.org a guy showed how much after so many miles. I didn't change mine when I had the cover off I only have like 60,000 miles.

[talonXracer]

The colored links will only match the dots when it is first assembled. after a single revolution you CAN NOT utilize the colored links anymore. I hope you didnt start taking things apart.

You use the hashmarks and not the dots to make sure the cams are properly timed.





The chain should last at least 150K miles. The tensioner has an internal spring to apply pressure to the chain at low rpm's when there is low oil pressure. A weak tensioner, stretched chain and a stock upper chain guide can allow the cam timing to jump.

Get a copy of the Helm's and use that to set the timing,

[big kitty]

Helms? Well if the crank is at tdc and the dots on the cans are facing up is it still in time? What else could cause my problems?

[talonXracer]

NO, the dots are not for verifing the cam timing, only for installing the chain, the hashmarks are used to verify the timing.


The Helm's manual is the factory service manual.

[big kitty]

Ok ill check the hash marks, I'm thinking it has to be a timing issue with the codes I'm getting, any other suggestions? I appreciate the help and I'm glad I checked here before really tearing into it, I haven't removed the chain yet

[talonXracer]

If your timing jumped ten teeth the engine wouldnt even rotate, the pistons would hit some valves. Rotating the engine a single revolution and the chain will no longer line up, and will take many, many, many revolutions for it to line up again.

[big kitty]

Well that's comforting, it sounded somewhat normal when it was running so I know there wasn't any piston to valve action going on, maybe it not nearly as odd as I thought, could a single link hop make it run that crapy?

[talonXracer]

You have something else going on, make sure the AAV is not leaking and that the IAC is functioning, the tests for those are also in the Helm's manual, as well as in some stickied posts. Having to hold down the throttle a little suggests to me it is IAC related.

[big kitty]

Can you give me a quick run down on where those are and how to test them, or where I can find the manual online

[big kitty]

disregard that last post, heres a pic, i checked the hash marks on the cams and that is def my problem, thank you for pointing that out, now my question is do i need to remove the chain to reset the timing or can i get some slack in the chain and rotate the cam without removing the chain? do i rotate the intake or exhaust cam?

http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee357/josiahafelix/IMG00112-20100418-1352.jpg

[talonXracer]

You can reset the exhaust cam easily, make sure the #1 piston is at TDC, Remove the TCT(follow the steps in the Helm's), make sure the intake cam stays in place(I use heavy paper clips to retain the chain to the sprocket), remove the exhaust cam bolt and carefully remove the sprocket from the cam(DO NOT ALLOW the chain to drop), carefully adjust the chian as needed and then reinstall the sprocket. Again do not allow the chain to drop/fall/lower and fall off the crank sprocket.

Then later on make sure to get a 07'+ K20Z3 upper chain guide, it is longer and will not allow the chain to jump as easily, if at all.

[big kitty]

So I reset the exhaust cam forward one link, car started right up and ran fine, no check engine lights or anything like that, though it did kind of scare me at first cause I noticied that vtec is quite a bit louder than it was before, other than that everything is fine, why would vtec,and performance in general, increase? Did I advance the timing too far?

[hondacur]

Then later on make sure to get a 07'+ K20Z3 upper chain guide, it is longer and will not allow the chain to jump as easily, if at all.

Could I get the part number for the correct chain guide? I assume its the item called "cam chain guide b" in the diagram but I looked and there are a couple of different ones called out as chain guide but neither says upper in the description, so I wanted to make sure I order the correct one. Thanks.

Next question for anyone that cares to respond: Just read in this months Honda Tuning about replacing stock Timing Chain Tensioner with aftermarket , they list skunk 2 and hybrid racing, but I know toda makes one also. My question is I have a JDM K20A all stock internals is this something to be concerned with? The way the article is written makes me believe they are suggesting modified or not you should change it out. Just wanting anyones thoughts. Thanks.