Dyno tomorrow @ 9am in MASS, Results inside. -- [Archive]

JSIR

12-06-2002, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by 02blksi
Jsir, When you dynoed your car what octane did you use (gas) thanks. --Joe :)

my last run where I hit 153.6 whp and possibly could have done 155whp if we took the revs to redline, I was using Sunoco 89 octane. On previous runs I used 92 octane.

It is really hard to know what octane works best. In theory 89 octane or even 87 octane is more volatile, that means it burns easier/quicker and sholud make more power when compared to higher octane. In other instances you might need more octane if the timing advance is aggressive, so you make more power with 92 octane where the engine uses full ignition advance in certain situations. I just don't know which case our car falls under, I don't know how aggressive our timing really is. Good question to ponder.

One thing about our area, in about early October months, we get winter gas up here, which performs worse and gets worse mpg, due to all the additives. Last dyno run we were in the winter gas season up here.

02blksi

12-06-2002, 06:34 PM

im going to dyno tomorrrow in 4th gear then go for a couple third gear runs as well... Last trip to the dyno i tested it in 4th gear and did not tap the rev limiter (my first time driving on the dyno :() ... Since the station around here are using the winter gas formula right now , what exactly is that? I thought it was just a formula thast resists condensation better (like dry gas). Hmm i wonder what octane i should fill up with, i have been using 93 all along, but im curious what would work best on a colder day. -- Joe ???

JSIR

12-06-2002, 07:46 PM

I like 3rd gear runs better as they are easier on the engine, and recommended for lower torque engines, less time for each run and less strain on the engine/drivetrain.

Winter gas has a host of additives to prevent freezing, condensation, etc.... . On cold day I would say the risk of pinging or detonation is much less, thus a lower octane may be the way to go. The thing about higher octane is that it resists detonation. If you get light detonation the knock sensor retards timing to compensate and you can get poorer performance. But if there is low or no chance of detonation the lower octane gas will probably perform better as it burns faster, I would run 89 octane as a good middle of the road formula, our engines can take as low as 87 octane.

02blksi

12-07-2002, 03:54 PM

IM SOOOOO HAPPY!!!!!!

Just got in from dinner, (went out with my girlfriend to celebrate :) LOL)..

This morning i got up, (7:30) am for rendez-vous with my NBP SI, It was a cold brisk sunny morning here in MASS.. I had a good feeling about today..

First off Air temp: 40 deg F
Date: 12-07-02
Octane: Texaco 93 (full tank)
Length of drive to dyno shop, 45 minutes.
Dyno type: Dynojet
Dyno location : NEDT in Worcester Ma.

Modifications to SI ENGINE: (as of 12-07-02)
AEM CAI
Crush bent 2.25 midpipe w/ Apexi N1 muffler (non resonated)
Homemade Grounding kit

RESULTS:
Acutal horspower (the power that my car put @ the wheels today on the dyno UNNCORRECTED..)
154.3 WHP:D
133.7 FT lbs torque :D

Corrected numbers: (PER THE standard SAE correction NOT STD which would yield higher results)
MAX POWER : 149.7 whp:D
MAX TORQUE: 130.7 Ft lbs @ the wheels.!!!!!!!:D
--Also please see the attached image for a visual refrence of my dyno compared to last time i went there--

Conclusion:

I am SOOOO very pleased with the way my car performed today, I was very impressed. With minimal mods I/E I have been able to produce well over 160horspower @ the crank and 130 ftlbs !!!
IM very excited with this K series platform!! I think that my torque numbers is what shocked me the most !! 130.7!! WOW with the stock header, makes me think my setup is working for me right now!! (note to self DONT F*ck it up LOL !!).. As you can hopefully see I LOST NO!! low end power compared to my last visit to the dyno which yielded me 138.3 WHP and 124.4 Ftlbs (SAE corrected numbers). My last visit to the dyno i tested the car with a homemade SRI and just the rear section N1. So this time i was expecting a little better, but not this much!!! Across the ENTIRE RPM range @ one spot at 5500 rpm i gained as much as 15 WHP!!!! (last dyno 120 hp this time 135 hp!!!!!) . Lowend, Midrange, and TOPEND this car improved!!! The dyno guys were great, for 100 bucks they gave me 1 hr of dyno time with an A/f sniffer... Note: My A/F across the board was great DEAD on...Im just pleased beyond belief the numbers the car put down...!!! I made a total of 8 pulls today. (one cool down for about a half hour betweeen pulls 4 and 5).

Notes:
MAX power on both runs, was done when the car was FULLY warmed.... (a warm engine benefits this car)
3rd gear pulls hitting the revlimiter each time works for max hspwr.
THIS K series engine is a TUNING masterpiece!!! 160 WHP IS NOT out of reach!!!!! ---

---Is my si making the most Trq out of anyone else who dynoed ?? JSIR? Myeverlovin? Im going to drag up your old dyno's and do some investigation ....:)---

JSIR BUDDY WE are neck and neck :) ----

More pics to come.... Thanks everyone, and Jsir for your helpful tips..... :):p :D

Beachya

12-07-2002, 04:06 PM

Nice numbers!!! Congrats man!!!

02blksi

12-07-2002, 04:08 PM

dyno pic sorry so small, i cant resize it on the computer im on :(..

IceD out N CALI

12-07-2002, 04:10 PM

way to go,congrats!

JSIR

12-07-2002, 04:39 PM

woah, that is a great result, congrats , very nice. Okay everyone start ordering those grounding cables from 02blksi ! , he, he . I think he fixed this dyno run to promote his grounding cables ;-), somehow I think I deserve a royalty from those cable sales :-! .

Seriously those are great numbers for the mods. The uncorrected numbers are awesome, but cold weather will do that. That's why they have corrections on dynojets. All the numbers we posted in the past were corrected. Keeping with corrected numbers , you are basically at the same power level as myeverlovinsir but you have a tad bit more torque. You even have more torque than my run, by about 1 ft lb. or so. Bottom end is similar but that peak torque is just a smidge higher. That is the most power I have seen with the stock header, I wouldn't have expected that. Perhaps your exhaust upgrade is equal to the header upgrades that we have, since myeverlovinsir and myself are using the stock muffler. My best run was 153.6 whp last time out, I really should have hit 155 whp on the last run but the dyno operator never took it to redline as the car was on its way to making the most power on that run. But I had a header and 2mm throttle body over-bore mods on that run, using the stock muffler. So I think you still have some more potential for sure.

I can't see the last part of the dyno chart in the picture, could you let me know how much torque you are making at 6800 rpms that would be interesting. I believe I was making just about 120 ft lbs on my best run at 6800 rpms if I remember correctly, I'll have to dig out my charts again.

But that is really good. Can you shed some light on the air fuel ratio across the rpm band I would love to see those numbers in any form. Where did they sniff the a-f ratio ?, did they tie into the o2 sensor bung or just the muffler ?. If they read it at the muffler the readings are not accurate enough because everything after the cat is swayed by the cat. converter. Readings have to be taken before the cat. . Thanks, great run, congrats again.

JSIR

12-07-2002, 05:10 PM

this now throws a new curve into my k20a3 tuning theory. Lets see what we have observed from many of the dyno runs now coming out - in terms of wheel hp:

-Intake,header,mid-pipe mods, & stock muffler make large gains.
-Intake,midpipe,&muffler mods make similar power as above.
-Intake,header,mid-pipe, & throttle body makes larger gains.
-Intake & header mods with stock exhaust makes good power.
-Exhaust mod., with stock intake & header doesn't change much.
-Intake & muffler mod, w/stock midpipe & header dont gain much.
-Midpipe,header mods with stock intake & muffler dont gain much.
-Grounding cables - who the hell knows ? :-).

How's that for a summary so far ?. Anyone else have observations to add ?.

Joey

02blksi

12-07-2002, 08:20 PM

Thanks everyone for the input!!

"-Grounding cables - who the hell knows ? :-)." --THIS IS KEY!! :)

JSIR-
Yes it must be those grounding cables!! :).... I will get a better picture posted tomorrow night ( When im home) along with videos of the air fuel ratios at specific rpm's, and dyno vids..
I just looked at my graph, my biggest jump in torque is @ 5500 rpm where my last dyno i was making only 115 ftlbs and this time i made 130 ftlbs at that very same rpm a 15ftlbs jump!!!!! (man, once again im shocked at my results.) To answer your question @ 6800 rpm's im making about 118 ftlbs --not bad IMO--.. Torque is VERY steady across the board from 2500 rpm till about 4700 rpm im making about 125 ftlbs at the wheel, then at about 4800 till about 5900 rpm im making 130+ ftlbs finally 6000rpm till redline the torque starts to taper to 118 @ redline. Once again Ill post a better picture tomorrow when i can. Im really excited. As of right now i dont know if im going to even bother with a header upgrade, I believe with a fresh set of plugs (maybe some denso's IK16's I can crest the "corrected" 150whp mark ...) Pretty impressive for just a intake and exhaust IMO. What to do next, what to do next.... ( im sorry guys but i may be joining the darkside very very shortly.) ..... Muaahhaaa.. --Joe :)

myeverlovinsir

12-07-2002, 08:49 PM

Whell, whooly shite Joe. Very nice indeed! I am also interested
in the A/F ratios and sample locations. As I and JSIR have indicated
there is definitely alot more in these engines with just a few
mods. Very good work. I am not going to surmise that the
grounding cables are it, but the catch can, now that is something!
j/k. ;)

I will be dynoing myself soon, and will likely be after the
TB bore out on the 17th. will keep you all posted on the results.
Let's hope the Hondata gasket has something to add to this mix
as well. Again nice numbers Joe. :D

David K.

12-08-2002, 01:31 AM

Hey yall,

impressive numbers, but I have a question regarding dyno technique. I recall reading or hearing somewhere that you're supposed to dyno in 4th gear, b/c it's a 1 to 1 ratio. Is this correct, or does the dyno not know the difference?

myeverlovinsir

12-08-2002, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by David K.
Hey yall,

impressive numbers, but I have a question regarding dyno technique. I recall reading or hearing somewhere that you're supposed to dyno in 4th gear, b/c it's a 1 to 1 ratio. Is this correct, or does the dyno not know the difference?

you are correct sir. 4th is the closest gear we have to 1:1 and
is the protocol. But you will find that the numbers are somewhat
disappointing compared to 3rd. (Aside from the drivetrain loads)
Every vehicle has a happy zone ratio.
3rd: 1.212, 4th: 0.921

MTO RSX

12-08-2002, 07:23 AM

Sweet Numbers Joe.

Jpax

12-08-2002, 11:45 AM

Wow joe now i can say, hey that guy can make some majic ground cables. .. ;)

I can't wait to get my car dynoed .... i want to see if i can acheve your exalence.

02blksi

12-08-2002, 12:39 PM

thanks everyone.

Paxie-- Young grasshoper you do not have my grounding cables therefore you will not be able to achieve my excellence . LOL --jk --GOOD luck on the dyno, make sure to post your results. --Joe.

:D ;)

natesi

12-08-2002, 01:41 PM

Sorry to ask, perhaps, a stupid question... But what are grounding cables??

Sounds like the negative cable off the battery or something....

= )

Also, I'm very interested in what the Hondata heat gasket will actually do for us in terms of HP. Has anyone dynoed with this yet?

Rather than get a CAI I was thinking about getting a stock K&N filter for easier breathing *and* gut the stock air box inside (Hondata style). I know this isn't as good as a CAI, but I really don't want all the water, warranty, and noise issues associated with a CAI.

If I did (1) the above, with (2) a midpipe replacement, *and* (3)Hondata heat sheild gasket do you think I would see some decent gains? I was guessing somewhere in the neighborhood of 8-10whp.

I figure:
* Hondata claims 5whp with JUST the gasket and no other mods (5)
* The air box mod with a K&N stock replacement should be good for at least 1-2whp (2)
* The mid pipe replacement should be good for another 2hp, right (2)?

So, that comes out to 9 more whp. Seems reasonable, right?

Would I lose any torque though???

Also, would I lose anything with a mid-pipe resonator if it's 2" in diameter in side?

Thanks,

-nate

JSIR

12-08-2002, 03:07 PM

natesi, I think your estimate sounds reasonable on paper, but as we often find out when you get to the dyno things don't always work as you intend them to.

The Hondata gasket upgrade sounds like a decent upgrade. Myeverlovinsir is probably going to be the first guy to test it that I know of, however I don't think it will show any gains in cold weather like we have around here in our parts this time of the year. I bet in very hot summer weather you are likely to experience good gains as they advertise, but when you are sucking in -10 degree air it will hard to distinguish.

If you want to see some pics of a modified box, I will have some posted by tonight hopefully. I have added a twist to the Hondata idea. My modified box is feeling pretty good right now. I have a K&N filter coming in tomorrow, I think it will work even better with that filter.

Joey

natesi

12-08-2002, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by JSIR
natesi, I think your estimate sounds reasonable on paper, but as we often find out when you get to the dyno things don't always work as you intend them to.

The Hondata gasket upgrade sounds like a decent upgrade. Myeverlovinsir is probably going to be the first guy to test it that I know of, however I don't think it will show any gains in cold weather like we have around here in our parts this time of the year. I bet in very hot summer weather you are likely to experience good gains as they advertise, but when you are sucking in -10 degree air it will hard to distinguish.

If you want to see some pics of a modified box, I will have some posted by tonight hopefully. I have added a twist to the Hondata idea. My modified box is feeling pretty good right now. I have a K&N filter coming in tomorrow, I think it will work even better with that filter.

Joey

Yea; I'm definately interested--pics would be good!

I thought you were using some sort of CAI though. Have you decided to go back to the stock box?

JSIR

12-08-2002, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by natesi

Yea; I'm definately interested--pics would be good!

I thought you were using some sort of CAI though. Have you decided to go back to the stock box?

I had a short ram intake - it worked well on the dyno with the hood open, but when I closed the hood the car lost about 4-5 whp when tested. My first choice would be the Comptech Icebox but it isn't available for at least 2 months or more, the Mugen would be sweet but way too much money. So I am testing different setups right now.

02blksi

12-08-2002, 05:45 PM

thread jackers LOL ...

Nate, like Jsir said ... You seem dead on, on paper.. The only way to find out for sure is to do the mods and dyno. So far i have been to the dyno 2 times my car is only 4 months old. Once in october and once in December. I have a total of 14 runs on the dyno for my car including A/F readings. Just do some mods, if you can get to a dyno asap, see what works and what doesnt, then mod more. by doing this you can avoid making $$$$$ mistakes. Ie. buying something that hurts performance. --Good luck --Joe.

Btw: Everyone pokes fun, but when i installed my DIY grounding cables I DID notice an increase in mid/upper accleration (go back and see for yourself.) Now my dyno graph just proves that they didnt HURT performance at all, if anything they might have added some. My torque is best so far i have seen, while my WHP is a bit less than JSIR (but then again he's got a bored out tb and header)... So my setup I/E grounding cables, was not to shabby.. --:)

BTW : Jsir, was your DYNO numbers STD or SAE numbers? thanks --

JSIR

12-08-2002, 05:59 PM

BTW : Jsir, was your DYNO numbers STD or SAE numbers? thanks -- [/B][/QUOTE]

my numbers were SAE corrected , but when I dyno'd the correction factor was zero, so no difference really. Myeverlovinsir went after me and he had a correction factor of .99, so his actual output was a bit higher than the corrected numbers. All the numbers we quoted were corrected whp. Your correction factor must have been .97 or something around that number , and the temps at your dyno must have been pretty cold causing such a negative correction factor to lower you numbers.

NateSi, I just posted a thread with a pic of my modified air box this evening, take a peek and see what you think. I have to say it was a lot more work than I thought, but it seems to have come together pretty decently.

02blksi

12-08-2002, 06:05 PM

hmmm that doesnt really make sense. IMO, why would the correction factor be zero, that leads me to believe that the numbers you posted are Actual numbers. SAE correction takes into consideration Air temp, humidity, barometric pressure, altitude etc... (at least thats what i was told by the guys @ NEDT.) correction is a mathmatical formula so that on a 90 deg day your dyno wont show low numbers and on a 10 deg day it wont show higher. Hmmmm... kinda weird that your correction factor was zero. And how may i ask did you know the correction factor. Thanks for the help --Joe .. who is trying to understand all this "correction" bs. :) LOL

JSIR

12-08-2002, 06:18 PM

you are right that correction factors are used to estimate the correct power of the vehicle adjusting for air pressure, temp., humidity, altitude, etc....., making dyno runs more comparable. At the time I dyno'd the factors were all at the level where no correction was deemed necessary. The actual power put down at the wheels as the exact number recorded as true hp. This is all based on Dynojet's computer estimates. When Myeverlovinsir dyno'd after me the temp and atmospheric conditions changed slightly so he had a factor of .99. Thus his actual numbers were corrected downwards by 1% to arrive at corrected hp. When I dyno'd there in late summer the correction factor was 1.02, and sometimes as high as 1.04, so the actual numbers were bumped upwards by 2% and up to 4% to arrive at a true corrected hp estimate. The numbers put down at the wheels were lower than the corrected numbers. At the time you dyno'd the temperature must have been pretty cool, so the numbers had to be corrected downwards (maybe like .97) approx. 3% or so, because the engine was enjoying the cold air too much. So the corrected numbers allow you to compare you run to my run, and someone elses run despite being done in different atmospheric conditions. Is it perfectly accurate ?, probably not, but it does help to make things more comparable than without correction.

Your dyno operator should list the correction factor along with the atmospheric conditions on the bottom of each dyno run on the chart, perhaps you need to ask them to do it. hth.

02blksi

12-08-2002, 06:27 PM

yea, he did but i havent read my disk yet. He gave me all my dyno charts on a floppy along with all my A/f reading charts. I have to tonight download the free player from www.dynojet.com to be able to read this disk. (which im going to do righ now.) --Joe.

if you want some copies of my charts or A/F readings shoot me a pm, download the player so you can view the charts. --

JSIR

12-08-2002, 06:33 PM

the throttle body seems like a nice upgrade from what I found. My corrected numbers before the TB were 149.7 whp. All the numbers have been with a stock muffler though.

yeah I will pm you as I would love to see the a/f numbers. where did they put the sensor to get the a/f ratio numbers ?

S800Racer

12-08-2002, 06:53 PM

Great results! 150 whp with minimal mods, awesome! But about those magic grounding cables... You said you made 8 pulls - did you try any different set-ups during the 8 pulls? That's the real value of a dyno session is to try different things to see what works and learn something. I really want to know if you tried a run with the magic cables disconnected - it would have been soooo easy to do and give us all some idea of what they do or don't do for power.

I plan to make similar mods to my Si. I already have the AEM CAI. My next mod will be the Hondata Heatshield gasket and then a crush-bent midpipe and maybe a muffler. If anyone does a dyno comparison with and without the "magic cables" I might do that too. Based on your experience, that will put me in the 150 whp range. Add a Hondata ECU upgrade and we could break 160 whp with stock internals and stock header!

02blksi

12-08-2002, 07:15 PM

YES I DID make a run with the cables disconnected 1 run only though as i was running out of time.. and had no more money.
That run without the cables netted me 146.6 whp and 129.4 ftlbs, after those runs (apprx 2 runs later i reached my 149 run with the cables on, i was trying my darndest to get 150whp CORRECTED!! I coud only muster not that its bad, 149.7, so i can conclude that THEY did work, as i have said before. The reason why im so cautious when i say they worked is because i realize that the cables could have done nothing on those runs as well even though the numbers reflected otherwise, the engine just may have been running really well at that point. That aside, I noticed (butt dyno an increase with my cables.) BUT im VERY CAREFUL to speculate ACTUAL gains. I can only tell you what i saw on my dyno runs, the run i made without the cables, i lost power 2 whp and almost 1 ftlbs. with them on i reached my best numbers. Like i said before these cables dont ADD hrpwr the release whats already there IMO. Believe what you want, I will keep these on my car!!! --

BTW as promised videos and pictures from my dyno session:
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291015751
click the link and if it asks for a user name and password use the following.,

username: guest
Pass: guest

ENJOY :) =Joe.

S800Racer

12-08-2002, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by 02blksi

That run without the cables netted me 146.6 whp and 129.4 ftlbs, after those runs (apprx 2 runs later i reached my 149 run with the cables on, i was trying my darndest to get 150whp CORRECTED!!

Thanks, Joe. It may not be conclusive, but it is pretty good evidence that the cables work.
I have noticed that there is a sort of "stepped" or surging effect during acceleration. It's barely noticeable but it is there. Is this something that you have noticed as well and did the cables seem to make a difference with that? Coincedentally, I have noticed the same thing in my Odyssey Minivan. Is this a Honda thing?

02blksi

12-08-2002, 07:53 PM

Yes!! that is what i loved most about the cables it smoothed my idle out (dead as nails 800rpm ALWAYS even with every accesory on and radio blasting), No more dimming headlights @ idle!!! with the same scenario as above, and accelreation is VERY smooth whether its part throttle or full throttle its very smooth. --Thanks -Joe :)

IceD out N CALI

12-08-2002, 08:01 PM

your cable kit is looking more and more attractive

JSIR

12-08-2002, 08:07 PM

I better go see my lawyer tomorrow, the interest in Joe's cables is going to skyrocket now and I don't see any royalties for me ! :mad:

02blksi

12-08-2002, 08:33 PM

I better go see my lawyer tomorrow, the interest in Joe's cables is going to skyrocket now and I don't see any royalties for me !

HAHAa, yea people seem intrested :)
BTW: My kit is different from your anyways, A good DIY'r takes an idea and makes it better LOL ;) :D :p jk...

the checks in the mail --Joe

PS: dont be surprised if one night you are flipping channels and see me on an infomercial HAHAAAaa like jack la lains juicer. --

:D

natesi

12-08-2002, 08:45 PM

I'm still not clear what these grounding straps are. Did I guess right earlier?

JSIR

12-08-2002, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by 02blksi

BTW: A good DIY'r takes an idea and makes it better LOL ;) :D :p jk...

:D

you're right , I have already changed the runs of my wires completely different from my first setup. I am thinking my new connection points are working better, I should test them out next time I get to the dyno.

Myeverlovinsir - do not release the pictures you have of my new grouding wire setup until I can get them patented !.

Ah who cares, go ahead and show them, I'm too lazy to make a second pair anyways. :D

David K.

12-08-2002, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by myeverlovinsir

you are correct sir. 4th is the closest gear we have to 1:1 and
is the protocol. But you will find that the numbers are somewhat
disappointing compared to 3rd. (Aside from the drivetrain loads)
Every vehicle has a happy zone ratio.
3rd: 1.212, 4th: 0.921

What do you mean by "disappointing"? If 4th gear is the protocol shouldn't it be the only one used? If 3rd gear gives better numbers, wouldn't 2nd or even 1st give even better numbers? I want to know what hp my car is laying down, but I want it to be accurate. Not flaming here, just curious. Thanks.

JSIR

12-08-2002, 10:09 PM

it seems that the use of different gears will result in different numbers, but the overall difference is pretty small. Seems like 4th gear will give you a bit lower hp number, but a bit higher torque number. And vice-versa for 3rd gear, 2nc gear, etc.... . Personally I like to use 3rd gear on motors with low torque (sport compacts). 3rd gear puts less stress on the drivetrain, and the dyno runs are shorter in length. Our 4th gear is over-driven, which puts a bit more load on things trying to floor the throttle from low rpms 2000 and up. Also the car is standing still without the air flow going through it like it normally would have on the street, so I like a shorter dyno run with that in mind. Even with a fan blowing on it, the car doesn't cool as well. The dyno corrects for gearing, but it is a calculation and there can be some error in it. A 1:1 ratio would be best, but I don't think the difference between 3rd and 4th gears is all that huge in our case.

MCeez02Si

12-09-2002, 05:45 PM

So...I guess that stock muffler is a little restrictive. Looks like the bigger midpipe/stock muffler combo might not be the best to go with.

02blksi

12-09-2002, 06:34 PM

if you like a quiet stealthy system -stick with the stock system

if you want the most power -IMO- get an aftermarket non baffled/straight flow thru muffler (the lighter the better to) ..

--Joe :)

JSIR

12-09-2002, 06:41 PM

from what I have seen the stock muffler isnt restrictive at all, besides it is the same one used on the CTR which makes over 200 hp. I think it is just about reaching a certain level of flow in the entire system. Perhaps having the full cat back exhaust with stock header is the same flow as having the header, larger midpipe,and stock muffler. But having a header, and catback exhaust may not necessarily give any additional gains. At the most we are talking 1-2 whp in the exhaust system by the looks of things.

02blksi

12-09-2002, 06:52 PM

"from what I have seen the stock muffler isnt restrictive at all"

Looks can be decieving (sp) the stock muffler although a very nice piece, is still BAFFLED. these baffles create restriction plain and simple.

take your exhaust off look through the tips you see daylight?

take my N1 off, look through the tip-- you see daylight! - you get the idea.

Id be curious to see you dyno (JSIR) with a straight flow through muffler with your setup (wish i lived closer id give it to you), how do you know that your stock muffler isnt the "bottleneck" on your system right now preventing you from getting 160whp? especially with a bored throttle body and header/midpipe upgrade. you may be surprised..... --Joe.

EDIT: one more thing you said "At the most we are talking 1-2 whp in the exhaust system by the looks of things."

Maybe PEAK horsepower but as i witnessed in my dyno gains throughout the midrange jumped in places upwards of 15 whp in areas!! Just something you should also consider when chosing a setup.--

JSIR

12-09-2002, 07:02 PM

I did one run with no muffler and didn"t see any gains , it was actually losing power that way. So I like the stock muffler from what I seen. But you are right, its all about testing different parts. I think it is more about getting the perfect flow on these k20 engines, not neccessarily the maximum flow. These engines behave differently than past Honda engines.

02blksi

12-09-2002, 07:06 PM

"I think it is more about getting the perfect flow on these k20 engines, not neccessarily the maximum flow. These engines behave differently than past Honda engines."

Right on my friend.!!! -Joe.:)

myeverlovinsir

12-09-2002, 07:10 PM

I agree, we don't have much to gain by switching out muffs.
The best thermal could get way back was near 3hp. Your ~15hp
jump Joe (in places) is not due exclusively to your exhaust only, but rather the combo of your intake as well and/or the other
mods you have made.

BTW: Joe could you post a pic of your dyno chart with the end
part not chopped off. I would like to see where your cut off is.
I suspect 6800 rpms. This will add to the library of info that
will provide more insight to people posting that they have
a higher cut off (some claim 7100 rpm). tks ;)

02blksi

12-09-2002, 07:55 PM

"Your ~15hp
jump Joe (in places) is not due exclusively to your exhaust only, but rather the combo of your intake as well and/or the other
mods you have made. "

I know this, but i was just saying that peak horsepower shouldnt be the sole decision on the validity of a mod, i was merly pointing out that even though peak power may rise only 1 horspower you may gain in midrange 5hp or more (knowone knows for sure) by adding an aftermarket muff...

My cutoff is 6800rpms (ecu reading) taken directly off my #1 coil wire. What i suspect people are confusing is the fact that if you are looking at the stock tach you will see it hit about 7100 incdicated rpm on it before the "rev limiter" kicks in. But in actuality the ecu us only reading an actual 6800 rpm, this i have witnessed first hand when i had a VAFC on my old car my indicated rpm was always higher than the tach input wire going to the ecu. hth --Joe :)

myeverlovinsir

12-09-2002, 08:07 PM

Tks, just wanted to clarify this for others. Some claims are
worth clarifying, especially the ones who claim a 7100 rpm
cut off. (none of which have been varified by a dyno run, as
we have shown.);)

S800Racer

12-09-2002, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by 02blksi

My cutoff is 6800rpms (ecu reading) taken directly off my #1 coil wire. What i suspect people are confusing is the fact that if you are looking at the stock tach you will see it hit about 7100 incdicated rpm on it before the "rev limiter" kicks in. But in actuality the ecu us only reading an actual 6800 rpm, this i have witnessed first hand when i had a VAFC on my old car my indicated rpm was always higher than the tach input wire going to the ecu. hth --Joe :)

I started the redline/fuel cut debate. I kept reading "6800rpm" but seeing 7100 on my tach. It's interesting that your cut-off is verified at 6800 by the dyno with reading directly from the #1 coil wire - that should be very accurate. Does your tach indicate 7100 when you run it to the limiter on the street?

I can accept that tachs are not always accurate. But why would all them be uniformly off the mark by +300rpm? Does Honda do this on purpose to add a safety margin (encouraging people to shift at in indicated 6800 that is actually 6500)? I like conspiracy theories and I smell something fishy with so many people saying they see 7100 rpm while the dyno reading from the ignition coil proves a 6800 rpm redline.
Find me someone who says his ignition cuts at something other than an indicated 7100rpm and I'll drop the consiracy talk.;)

02blksi

12-09-2002, 08:33 PM

"Does your tach indicate 7100 when you run it to the limiter on the street?"

Yes

"I can accept that tachs are not always accurate. But why would all them be uniformly off the mark by +300rpm? Does Honda do this on purpose to add a safety margin (encouraging people to shift at in indicated 6800 that is actually 6500)? I like conspiracy theories and I smell something fishy with so many people saying they see 7100 rpm while the dyno reading from the ignition coil proves a 6800 rpm redline.
Find me someone who says his ignition cuts at something other than an indicated 7100rpm and I'll drop the consiracy talk"

LOL, maybe, your reading to much into things STOP watching TV LOL... --Joe who thinks HONDA is after S800racer! LOL :)