Please tell me how to disable our ABS--it totally SUCKS!!

[natesi]

Our brakes totally **SUCK** and almost caused me to crash my car today. So, here

[Surprise]

Your ABS is not working correctly. It is suposed to let go when you do. That is how ALL ABS work, take it to the dealer and let them do an emergency stop from a decent speed then let up. but whatever you do don't take away the ABS (fuse labeled ABS).

[civic hatch boi]

yeah my abs doesnt' do that either... i've had it engage a couple of times.. it works like normal brakes for me.. except for the vibrating feeling on the brake pedal

[fyzm7357]

Originally posted by civic hatch boi
yeah my abs doesnt' do that either... i've had it engage a couple of times.. it works like normal brakes for me.. except for the vibrating feeling on the brake pedal

Ditto, I believe that there is something wrong with your ABS. Is your ABS light on?

[ep pilot]

Actually our braking systems are coupled with electronic proportioning, similar to what is being put onto the new Mercedes products; there will be some slight parity between true brake pressure and the ABS system. I suspect your system is working fine, I had a similar instance happen last week came into a turn with more than desired speed, applied brake pressure late, the ass end became dangerously light and the electronic proportioning helped keep the rear in-line with the front, albeit did not help be drift around the corner, as if to left-foot-brake as I would has desired. I have not located the fuse for the ABS, but that is all that is needed to disable it. I drove around for 5 years in my Integra with the ABS disabled, put the fuse back in when I sold it, if anything it will maintain full life of the system while disabled, beware it could cost you a misfortune in in climate situations, I live in Cali so I don

[Surprise]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ep pilot
[B]Actually our braking systems are coupled with electronic proportioning, similar to what is being put onto the new Mercedes products; there will be some slight parity between true brake pressure and the ABS system. I suspect your system is working fine, I had a similar instance happen last week came into a turn with more than desired speed, applied brake pressure late, the ass end became dangerously light and the electronic proportioning helped keep the rear in-line with the front, albeit did not help be drift around the corner, as if to left-foot-brake as I would has desired. I have not located the fuse for the ABS, but that is all that is needed to disable it. I drove around for 5 years in my Integra with the ABS disabled, put the fuse back in when I sold it, if anything it will maintain full life of the system while disabled, beware it could cost you a misfortune in in climate situations, I live in Cali so I don

[natesi]

ABS actually causes crashes too. I've hears statistics about this in the past, although I don't know what they are.

I've been driving 11 years and have done great without ABS. Be realistic, it's not like they work miracles or your brakes are horrible without it.

**IF** they are working like they are supose to (on my car), then it's easy to see how they cause crashes. They would only provide an advantage under limited conditions--which most drivers rarely encounter.

[ep pilot]

Originally posted by Surprise


Gee where in california does it never rain, and you must race for F1 or something (oh wait they DO use traction control). I wish I had enough control and constant awareness to be prepared to threshold brake and control the car at every instant. Damn all the car makers must be wrong then, it is a shame they used so much resources for systems that have no situations to be used in.

Let

[Surprise]

So then why does Schumacher use traction control, I supose he has no driving skill? The next time a kid jumps in front of your car on a rainy day, you can tell his mother how you took out the ABS, thus resulting in locking your tires making any steering inputs useless while you plow into the kid. Me I would let the system do the threshould braking while I avoid the kid and steer around him. Yeah oh man my nap was nice;)

[JSIR]

on extreme slippery ice conditions, ABS may not keep you from crashing into a parked car. I think you just hit some very slippery conditions. In such instances with ABS you kind of get that feeling that the car isn't going to stop but then all of a sudden the car comes to a quick stop once the modulation process becomes effective.

One thing you should never do with ABS brakes is pulsate or let up on the brake pedal. If you lift or pulsate the brake pedal on an ABS system you can increase your stopping distances by a large amount. I wouldn't be surprised if the stopping distance was doubled by the fact that you let up on the brake pedal and then applied it again. Just put the brakes on and keep your foot planted until the car stops. Once you let up it takes much longer for the modulation process to work again up reapplication of the brake pedal. I suspect this was part of your problem. It can be a scary feeling because with ABS you just get that feeling that the car isn't going to stop, but in most cases it does come to a quick stop after the system has modulated a bit. Something you have to get used to. It doesn't matter how hard you press the brake with ABS , the car wont stop any quicker. If you hit extremely slippery ice on the road ABS doesn't reduce braking distances. Without ABS you would could have hit the parked car with your wheels locked up, with ABS you could have hit the parked car with the wheels still modulating. If you haven't had ABS brakes on other cars then you need to aquaint yourself with how they operate. Go to an empty lot on a slippery day and do some testing. They may not be the save all invention that people think they are, but they certainly aren't any worse than non-abs brakes. I would rather have them on a car than not if I had a choice. Lastly, sometimes it doesn't matter how slow you are driving, if you hit a slippery ice coated section of road your momentum will carry you a long distance even at 10 mph. This has happened to me a couple times already this season in my winter car, it is amazing how low of a level of friction ice can have some times , you litterally just can't stop regardless of speed.

[Whooopasss]

When you said it wasnt stoping, was the tires screeching?

I drove my turbo CRX for 5 years and one time I had to step on the break real hard becaus an idion decided to cut in, I pulled my steering wheel to the right and the car was still moving forward.. not responding to my action.. almost crashed that day..

Now with the Si, I was taking an on ramp blind spot and I didnt know that trafic was stoped, as I cam near, I pressed on the brakes real hard and pulled to the left.. car went where I wanted it to go.. I love abs..

[chunky]

Originally posted by JSIR
on extreme slippery ice conditions, ABS may not keep you from crashing into a parked car. I think you just hit some very slippery conditions. In such instances with ABS you kind of get that feeling that the car isn't going to stop but then all of a sudden the car comes to a quick stop once the modulation process becomes effective.

One thing you should never do with ABS brakes is pulsate or let up on the brake pedal. If you lift or pulsate the brake pedal on an ABS system you can increase your stopping distances by a large amount. I wouldn't be surprised if the stopping distance was doubled by the fact that you let up on the brake pedal and then applied it again. Just put the brakes on and keep your foot planted until the car stops. Once you let up it takes much longer for the modulation process to work again up reapplication of the brake pedal. I suspect this was part of your problem. It can be a scary feeling because with ABS you just get that feeling that the car isn't going to stop, but in most cases it does come to a quick stop after the system has modulated a bit. Something you have to get used to. It doesn't matter how hard you press the brake with ABS , the car wont stop any quicker. If you hit extremely slippery ice on the road ABS doesn't reduce braking distances. Without ABS you would could have hit the parked car with your wheels locked up, with ABS you could have hit the parked car with the wheels still modulating. If you haven't had ABS brakes on other cars then you need to aquaint yourself with how they operate. Go to an empty lot on a slippery day and do some testing. They may not be the save all invention that people think they are, but they certainly aren't any worse than non-abs brakes. I would rather have them on a car than not if I had a choice. Lastly, sometimes it doesn't matter how slow you are driving, if you hit a slippery ice coated section of road your momentum will carry you a long distance even at 10 mph. This has happened to me a couple times already this season in my winter car, it is amazing how low of a level of friction ice can have some times , you litterally just can't stop regardless of speed.

I agree completely. one of the worst things you can do with an ABS equipped car is to pump the brakes or to reduce brake pressure once the brakes begin to pulse. By lifting pressure from the brake pedal, you are essentially telling the system that you don't want to stop anymore.

Believe it or not, the ABS system in the SI is EXCELLENT. hop into say, a subaru WRX, get to 80mph and stomp on the brakes and see how much drama you endure to stop straight. I've done this many many times in my si, and it WILL stop straight with very minimal drama.

also, if you were cornering hard, it may have just been that the tires were loosing grip - brakes can't save you then, you have to have traction in order for the brakes to work.

The si's abs system is EXCELLENT and is VERY non intrustive. at low speeds, the abs system does allow the wheels to lock up for a split sceond before engaging. it gives you every chance to properly threshold brake before engaging. If anything, you have a faulty abs system. it would be wise to have it checked immediately.

[myeverlovinsir]

the only quam I have about ABS is that it is not intelligent enough.
When ABS first came out, although there is not much diff. today, I
had it on my 96 grand am, was only in prod. for a couple of years
then and really was disapointed to say the least. I ramed my car
on the 417 in ottawa under another grand am, (coincidence, dam bitch was parked in the middle of the freeway) and
felt that if ABS was not there I would have stopped much sooner.
All of the damage was to my car. The hood folded faster than
superman on laundry day and the other grand am was proped
up on my ride. had the rear of the other grand am totally situated on my windsheild.
Anyways, 5gs later (insurance) I am not fully satisfied with
the ABS system to date. One thing that bothers me is how if
in snow it will pulse, as it should, but if you did not have ABS it
would plow when you lock up, and in my opinion would stop
shorter than the ABS could ever. The only time I see ABS working
well is when you are on a wet surface, the feedback is much more
direct due to the surface. On snow it does not react as well.
I found in my own tests that the ABS does not slow you down
any better when your in snow. Icy or wet conditions are OK, but
the snow throws off the reaction and lengthens the stop. I think
that these tests, that I know the ABS industry does not want to
deal with, are in fact a hinderance to our winter conditions. Give me
a solid lock up on snowy conditions and I guarantee that you will
stop much sooner, and be in more control, based on the direct
feedback. The ABS gives alot of drivers a false sense of security
and I am one to attest to this.

[chunky]

Originally posted by myeverlovinsir
the only quam I have about ABS is that it is not intelligent enough.
When ABS first came out, although there is not much diff. today, I
had it on my 96 grand am, was only in prod. for a couple of years
then and really was disapointed to say the least. I ramed my car
on the 417 in ottawa under another grand am, (coincidence, dam bitch was parked in the middle of the freeway) and
felt that if ABS was not there I would have stopped much sooner.
All of the damage was to my car. The hood folded faster than
superman on laundry day and the other grand am was proped
up on my ride. had the rear of the other grand am totally situated on my windsheild.
Anyways, 5gs later (insurance) I am not fully satisfied with
the ABS system to date. One thing that bothers me is how if
in snow it will pulse, as it should, but if you did not have ABS it
would plow when you lock up, and in my opinion would stop
shorter than the ABS could ever. The only time I see ABS working
well is when you are on a wet surface, the feedback is much more
direct due to the surface. On snow it does not react as well.
I found in my own tests that the ABS does not slow you down
any better when your in snow. Icy or wet conditions are OK, but
the snow throws off the reaction and lengthens the stop. I think
that these tests, that I know the ABS industry does not want to
deal with, are in fact a hinderance to our winter conditions. Give me
a solid lock up on snowy conditions and I guarantee that you will
stop much sooner, and be in more control, based on the direct
feedback. The ABS gives alot of drivers a false sense of security
and I am one to attest to this.

here's a DIRECT quote from the owner's manual, page 149


A car with ABS may require a longer distance to stop on loose or uneven surfaces, such as gravel or snow, than a car without anti-lock. Slow down and allow greater distance between cars under those conditions.

what you've mentioned is a well documented fact, the plowing effect.

however, on ice and rain, ABS usually will provide quicker stopping distances. In the dry, ABS does not increase stopping distances and can help maintain stability when braking during cornering.

All said, ABS is not a perfect system. however, it is IMO safer than leaving the job of threshold braking up to the driver. I would much rather that the person driving behind me have ABS, as well as have my own car eqipped with ABS than not.

On the race track, ABS IS useful, hence ferrari's, bmw's and porsche's all utilize ABS systems on most of their race prepped vehicles.

[myeverlovinsir]

I am with natesi, ABS still sucks. Screw the track implications and
perfect world. Jaded and adament:mad:

[chunky]

Originally posted by myeverlovinsir
I am with natesi, ABS still sucks.

then you're expecting too much from the ABS system. They even warn you that it takes longer to stop when it's snowy - you shouldn't be following close or driving fast in the snow anyhow.

ABS will stop the car much more reliably when it's wet and icy out than a human driver, period. how is that bad? it stops you from hitting other people, and hopefully, other people from hitting you under the conditions when it's most likely to happen.

[myeverlovinsir]

Originally posted by chunky


then you're expecting too much from the ABS system. They even warn you that it takes longer to stop when it's snowy - you shouldn't be following close or driving fast in the snow anyhow.

ABS will stop the car much more reliably when it's wet and icy out than a human driver, period. how is that bad? it stops you from hitting other people, and hopefully, other people from hitting you under the conditions when it's most likely to happen.

Am fully familiar with what ABS offers, just think it is under
developed and has lended itself to a blanket of security that
it is not worthy of. Especially when dealing with the northern
climates. I would refine the sucker to make it more responsible.
I know that there are cases on the books that are entirely
bearing the method and means of ABS today. Time will tell.
Be cautious in all conditions is my motto. but am afraid of
the shortcommings of ABS. I know from experience that it is
not all it is cracked up to be. as you do to. One day we will have
a better system of managing our road conditions. Hope it does
not result in some autonomous systems totally, as the ABS seems to do. The driver is king and when you take that out of
the picture, you ask for trouble.

[chunky]

Originally posted by myeverlovinsir


Am fully familiar with what ABS offers, just think it is under
developed and has lended itself to a blanket of security that
it is not worthy of. Especially when dealing with the northern
climates. I would refine the sucker to make it more responsible.
I know that there are cases on the books that are entirely
bearing the method and means of ABS today. Time will tell.
Be cautious in all conditions is my motto. but am afraid of
the shortcommings of ABS. I know from experience that it is
not all it is cracked up to be. as you do to. One day we will have
a better system of managing our road conditions. Hope it does
not result in some autonomous systems totally, as the ABS seems to do. The driver is king and when you take that out of
the picture, you ask for trouble.

well, the only thing that could be added to the ABS system is a kill switch so that it can be shut off to create the plowing effect on snow and gravel. There is no way that the braking system will ever be able to "know" what type of road surface the car is riding on.

ABS simply attempts to prevent wheel lockup. in 90% of all driving situations you DON'T want your wheels to lock. I don't think it's unreasonable that the other 10% you just excercise proper caution.

I've never had an experience where the ABS did something I didn't want it to do aside from when i was trying to purposely lock the wheels. I've never felt that the ABS took control from me while braking. Cars with ABS stop straighter and are easier to control around turns while braking.

Actually, i'd be dead a few times over if it weren't for ABS b/c of the dipshits on the roads. I'll have to slam on my brakes and simultaneously swerve at highway speeds to avoid some pricks that just plow into my lane w/o looking. W/O abs, you lose control if the wheels lock, with ABS you maintain control. why is that bad?

Nothing is perfect, but I feel the benefits of ABS far outweigh it's limitations. Hell, in GA, it snows maybe 1 week out of the year and ices over maybe 1 other week. So that means for 50 weeks out of the year, ABS can be your best friend. the other 2 weeks, just drive slow. I'm sure it's different for you folk up north though. maybe that's why we have such differing opinions on the matter.

[myeverlovinsir]

Not entirely. I believe that ABS is our friend most of the time.
Those other 2 wks you mentioned is only a slice of our dilema, but
we should all still be concerned and diligent about it. Most southern
folks don't even know it's there, unless they are pushing the
envelope. Again, one day we will not have this as a concern,
yet there is a definite deficientcy as you and I have indicated.

I still say ABS sucks, and you know why now. tks.

[BarracksSi]

I wasn't goint to post, but i'm pissed.

People are expecting ABS to save them from their own fuckin' stupidity? Jeeeezus....

Nobody has said that ABS is the be-all, end-all of braking advancements. Why are people trying to see it as such? Are they that gullible, or just ignorant? Do they not read everything in the manual, magazines, newspapers, or the news on TV?

If it's snowy, drive slower. If you're on gravel, drive slower. Plan ahead, and expect that some idiot is going to come out of nowhere. Don't be driving over 20 in a fucking parking lot. Duh.

I've read of the studies that show drivers with ABS are more likely to get themselves into accidents, just like drivers with 4WD, and airbags, and all the safety enhancements. It's not the fault of ABS or any safety device -- the drivers chose to be too dependent on the technology to save their asses. They say, "It's OK, I can drive a bit faster in the rain because I have ABS." "I can power around this snowy corner because I have traction control." Stupid, just stupid.

I'm reminded of my dad's stories of when school gyms began to put padding on the walls behind the basketball backboards to protect players who ran into the wall after a layup. For a little while, they worked -- there were fewer injuries. Then, the players began thinking, "Oh, I can run into the wall faster now and not get hurt." Guess what -- more injuries, even more than before.

I'll stop now -- I think my point is made.

[natesi]

Originally posted by JSIR
[B]on extreme slippery ice conditions, ABS may not keep you from crashing into a parked car. I think you just hit some very slippery conditions. In such instances with ABS you kind of get that feeling that the car isn't going to stop but then all of a sudden the car comes to a quick stop once the modulation process becomes effective.


This was BARE DRY PAVEMENT.



One thing you should never do with ABS brakes is pulsate or let up on the brake pedal.


I know how ABS works and stated it in my original post. My point is, once ABS isn't needed it shouldn't stay engaged. This is the only reason why I had the problems. My friend said on thier Volvo once ABS engaged, if they lift the pedal (not OFF the pedal) it quits. Mine didn't do that. Stayed on the whole time.



Just put the brakes on and keep your foot planted until the car stops.


What I said was I didn't want to come to a *complete stop*. Yes; *if* that was the case, then ABS is superior. But what I wanted to do was reduce my speed a great amount at first, then brake lightly after that. This is where it is dangerous because when I went to braking lightly it should have shut the ABS *off* without me having to lift totally off the pedal. That's not cool. When I applied more pressure and tried to stop at 10-15 mph it proved almost impossible.

So, for example, if I was in rush hour (I use to live in the Seattle area), and traffic started slowing all the sudden, so I panic and engage ABS, but realize I over reacted and didn't need to slow that much, and therefore ease up on the brake... Then all the sudden traffic **really** comes to a stop, I'm totally screwed! If I apply more pressure to the pedal I'm only going to stop gradually, and rear-end the person in front of me because the ABS didn't stop engaging when I didn't need it. That's totally lame man!!!




Once you let up it takes much longer for the modulation process to work again up reapplication of the brake pedal. I suspect this was part of your problem. It can be a scary feeling because with ABS you just get that feeling that the car isn't going to stop, but in most cases it does come to a quick stop after the system has modulated a bit.


Definately not what happened here....


Thanks for the input. Maybe the ABS on my car isn't working right. Some poeple think it's working like it should, others don't. It doesn't make sense to me that it should behave this way by design. If it does I definately want it defeated on my car because I will crash into someone for sure, sooner or later.

Like I said, it's not like I'm going to go out and get in an accident because I don't know how to drive without ABS. If your wheels start to lock, you just modulate them. Who ever implied you just leave them locked up and turn the wheel was being sarcastic, I hope.

All I know is what happened today with my ABS SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED. Had anyone been near me there would have been an accident for sure.

[myeverlovinsir]

this is just a common case. I know from my past
experiences that I would rather that the ABS did not engage
when I was pushin really hard on the sucker to stop, or lock the
wheels. I hate when I am limited by the ABS, and it automatically
takes over on me. I empathise totally. The dam brakes need
to work when you want them too, even if that means locking
them up! I have been in a few situations in snowy conditions where
I feel that the car is holding me in a test pattern under hard breaking, and would otherwise hit someone because of the
modulation of the braking system due to ABS.


I guess there is nothing to be done about this now, but am totally
on page with what you are feeling. One day soon there will
be a class action upon the ABS industry. After all, they implemented
it and without consult and real world tactics. Therefore I feel they are responsible for their shortcommings. I am one who believes
that there must be a better way to accomplish what was
concieved as a great idea.

[natesi]

Originally posted by BarracksSi
I wasn't goint to post, but i'm pissed.

People are expecting ABS to save them from their own fuckin' stupidity? Jeeeezus....

Nobody has said that ABS is the be-all, end-all of braking advancements. Why are people trying to see it as such? Are they that gullible, or just ignorant? Do they not read everything in the manual, magazines, newspapers, or the news on TV?

If it's snowy, drive slower. If you're on gravel, drive slower. Plan ahead, and expect that some idiot is going to come out of nowhere. Don't be driving over 20 in a fucking parking lot. Duh.

I've read of the studies that show drivers with ABS are more likely to get themselves into accidents, just like drivers with 4WD, and airbags, and all the safety enhancements. It's not the fault of ABS or any safety device -- the drivers chose to be too dependent on the technology to save their asses. They say, "It's OK, I can drive a bit faster in the rain because I have ABS." "I can power around this snowy corner because I have traction control." Stupid, just stupid.

I'm reminded of my dad's stories of when school gyms began to put padding on the walls behind the basketball backboards to protect players who ran into the wall after a layup. For a little while, they worked -- there were fewer injuries. Then, the players began thinking, "Oh, I can run into the wall faster now and not get hurt." Guess what -- more injuries, even more than before.

I'll stop now -- I think my point is made.

Hey man, I'm not stupid. I know how to drive a fucking car all right? If I didn't I would have some pretty bad blemishes on my record, and it's totally clean.

I don't count on ABS to save me, I just expect it to engage when the wheels are on the verge of locking up. That's all I expect. I KNOW you don't modulate ABS--that's not what I was trying to do.

It kicked in, I eased up a lot (after it had slowed me down significantly) and it should have shut off. I say *should*, as in, they should have designed it that way. If they didn't then it sucks and is inherently flawed. If they did, then there's something wrong with the way it works on my particular car.

Also, keep in mind the auto industry sells what consumers buy. They don't really give two shits about you as an individual--they just want your money, and if it means putting features on there that sell (maybe ABS, for example) they will do it for marketing reasons, weather it's better for the consumer or not. Just because the industry moves in a certain direction doesn't make it better or "right". Don

[natesi]

BTW, does anyone know how to disable ABS in the Si for sure and what the consequences are (error codes, etc). Where's the mechanic or Honda tech dudes???

= )

[chunky]

Originally posted by natesi
BTW, does anyone know how to disable ABS in the Si for sure and what the consequences are (error codes, etc). Where's the mechanic or Honda tech dudes???

= )

btw, I just caught on to what your major beef about the ABS system is - that once it engaged, it wouldn't disengage.

from my own experience, the abs only stays on for as long as lockup is impending - for instance once coming off of the highway onto an offramp, I hit the brakes to slow down rather hard as the traffic was backed up unsually far up the offramp. My front left wheel went over one of those painted white arrows that directs you - the ABS immediately tripped - you have less traction over the painted surface than the bare asphalt As soon as the front left was back on the asphalt, the abs shut off. I kept my pedal pressure constant throughout the maneuver, so the circumstance was slightly different than yours, but it does show that the ABS does have the intelligence to detect when control of the wheel is regained.

[bsdbytes]

I would have your ABS system checked out. ABS should only stay on when needed then shut off.

Most of the time I find ABS useful. When it snows ABS is questionable. But who should be pushing their limits in the snow anywho. But overall ABS is useful most of the time. I'm sure there is room for improvement. Like seatbelts, no body liked them at first and yes, in rare instances seatbelts can kill you. But overall they save lives.

Just my 02 cents worth.

Mike

[JSIR]

you know this whole thing sounds like a pretty scary situation for a car driving 15mph . I know on the last Civic SiR the ABS brakes wouldnt engage at speeds under 40 km/hr, dunno if they changed that for this new Civic. To me that is a pretty low speed to be freaked out about, perhaps the tires hit some loose dirt or sand or something to have the brakes engage for that long of a period of time. I know my system doesn't enage more than a second over loose surfaces, and then returns back to normal.


just one last note, if you want ABS to disengage you have to let off the brake completely, if you just ease off with your foot still on the brake I can see the ABS continuing to operate, unlike a Volvo system. To be honest, the Volvo system is not as good, because that encourages people to pulsate their own brakes which isn't good. Take your car in to be checked and see if they find anything faulty.

[BlasTech]

The other day, I did a quick stop from under 20mph and the ABS continued chattering after I stopped.

[natesi]

Originally posted by BlasTech
The other day, I did a quick stop from under 20mph and the ABS continued chattering after I stopped.

Yea, that's what mine did too. After I totally stopped it was still making major noise.

I guess I'll have the dealership check it out.

[Jpax]

wow looks like a long conversation. i dont want to read. ;)

[BarracksSi]

If it's malfunctioning, go to the dealer.

If it's a design flaw (it's operating as intended, but still wrong), raise hell with Honda, and maybe they'll issue a recall to fix it.

But, if you get into an accident of any kind, and your insurance company gets wind of the disabled ABS, they're going to do everything they can to keep their money away from you. I wouldn't be surprised if there were legal problems as well.

[natesi]

I doubt insurace would ever find out, and even if they did, I have my doubts they would fight it--especially if it was a small-fry claim; it's not worth their time.

Besides, look at it this way: What's worse--getting in a crash *because* of ABS, and KNOWING you could have avoided it because of it's flaws?? That would totally suck--I'd be furious. Or, getting in a crash with lots of uncertainty if ABS would have done jack to help the situation anyway?

[George Knighton]

What would really be great is finding out a way to disable the (E)lectronic (S)tability (P)rogramme w/out disabling the ABS.

As it is, when you trailbrake into a corner, the computer thinks you're making a mistake and tries to straighten the car out.

So...if you're trailbraking into a sharp left, you end up skidding off to the right because the car tries to straighten itself out.

[HgSi]

I didn't think we had ESP.

[George Knighton]

Originally posted by HgSi
I didn't think we had ESP.

Come on out to the Expo and do some trailbraking. LOL...

You'll find it pretty quickly.

[LordKoo]

natesi, I am not going to pour a cold blanket over you. But I seriously question your driving skill. To get an ABS to stop working, is really questionable especially in this modern era of ABS. Furthermore, our EPs are equipped with Electronic Brake Distribution (EBD). So it is a very good all round package in my opinion.

If you want to get ABS to stop working, just try to bump the brake pedal rapidly instead of holding it down!

ESP my ass! Electronic Stability Program is available on most German cars like MErcedes, BMW, Porsche not on Japanese cars. Most luxury japanese cars have the lower end crap call trac-control! That POS.... Does not do shit but to cut your engine power and brake to gain back traction! ESP or DSP(BMW's version) is a lot more complex than that. Try test drive a BMW or Mercedes and do a hard cornering, the system will bring the car back in line...

[iR-VTEC2]

just wondering...

why were you braking coming out of a corner??? was there something in the way?

[George Knighton]

Originally posted by iR-VTEC2
just wondering...

why were you braking coming out of a corner??? was there something in the way?

If you're talking to me...no.

Trailbraking is the fastest way through Turn 5 at Summit, and probably Turn 1, too.

Whatever it is that the EP has (and judging from the crude banter before your post, it's "electronic brake distribution"), it is a hinderance to getting through the turns quickly.

And as to the efficiency of the ABS...it's not threshold braking.

The ITR ABS comes close to or equals threshold braking. On the ITR, the ABS works so quickly that you don't feel it in the pedal, and the car will usually stop quicker than you could manage to do it w/out ABS...unless you're on those experimental compound tyres that will just not lock up, anyway.

The EP ABS is nothing like that, and even this driver can brake better on a road course than the ABS does.

[George Knighton]

Originally posted by LordKoo

I am not going to pour a cold blanket over you.

Maybe that was clever when you thought of it, but you typed it as an indecipherable mixed metaphor. So whatever your brain thought didn't come through to us.


But I seriously question your driving skill. To get an ABS to stop working, is really questionable especially in this modern era of ABS.

I'm guessing you never take your cars to the track. The ITR is probably the only cheap car with ABS that's suitable for the track. I don't know about the 350Z "Track Edition"...I'll ask David.


Furthermore, our EPs are equipped with Electronic Brake Distribution (EBD). So it is a very good all round package in my opinion.

Sure...if you want to skid off to the right while you're trying to turn left.


If you want to get ABS to stop working, just try to bump the brake pedal rapidly instead of holding it down!

Unacceptable on the track.


ESP my [soul]!

Thanks for the education (on both the "EBD" and on the way you were brought up).

[chunky]

Originally posted by George Knighton
Anybody ever figure out how to disable the ABS?

What would really be great is finding out a way to disable the (E)lectronic (S)tability (P)rogramme w/out disabling the ABS.

As it is, when you trailbrake into a corner, the computer thinks you're making a mistake and tries to straighten the car out.

So...if you're trailbraking into a sharp left, you end up skidding off to the right because the car tries to straighten itself out.

The EBD (electronic brakeforce distribution) system aims to do one thing, when braking, it ensures that the wheels with the most traction get the most brake force. If you're trailbraking, then you're using the handbrake, which doesn't trigger the EBD or ABS systems.

The ABS system in our car is VERY competent. It still surprises me that you guys have such a problem with it! After the tire upgrade, I'd say that the 70-0 stopping distances have been cut by almost 50ft. Of course I have new pads. Also, after the brake fluid change, I can't feel any pulsing in the pedal the few times that the ABS has gone off.

For instance, going 40mph, I'll SLAM on the braks, full panic stop style, and the abs will trip for a second, until the weight transfers to the front, then shuts itself off, and then all of a sudden the car is stopped, no tire squealing, no drama. If you want to avoid tripping the abs at all, you can press the brakes lightly, and then harder a moment later - the light braking shifts weight to the front, then you can jam on them w/o tripping the ABS.

I scared the PISS out of a friend of mine at the last auto-x, coming into the 3rd turn, which required an entry speed of about 15-20mph, I'd get up to about 55mph on the short straight just before it, then brake WAY way deep into the entry, and the car would just slow down w/o loosing it's composure.

Before you knock that badly on the stock brake system, try making the basic upgrades, pad change, fluid change, better tires! you'll be surprised at the results, I promise you - all of a sudden ABS disappears in all but the most extreme braking situations (or in the rain).

[George Knighton]

Originally posted by chunky

The EBD (electronic brakeforce distribution) system aims to do one thing, when braking, it ensures that the wheels with the most traction get the most brake force. If you're trailbraking, then you're using the handbrake, which doesn't trigger the EBD or ABS systems.

Oh, my god!! You most certainly are NOT using the handbrake to trailbrake!!

The definition of trailbraking simply is that you still have the brakes applied when you start the turn into the apex.

You do this to maximise speed and accelerate the car's rotation.


The ABS system in our car is VERY competent.

Look, I'm not going to sit here and argue with people who don't know what they're talking about and don't understand my question.

The EP3 ABS is not as competent as the ITR ABS, and it is not good for track use. Period. All questions that I ask in regards to disabling the ABS or EBD are in relation to track use.

That's all I'm interested in.

If you track your EP3 and you understand the question, then please help with it if you know what I'm asking.

Otherwise, forget it. You're not helping.


It still surprises me that you guys have such a problem with it!

Come on out to VIR or Summit Point w/me and I will illustrate the problem to you. In Turn 5 at Summit Point, the car tries to make you slid off to the right instead of turning left.

Your only alternative is to take the turn slower than you could in any number of other cars in order to avoid ABS.


After the tire upgrade, I'd say that the 70-0 stopping distances have been cut by almost 50ft. Of course I have new pads. Also, after the brake fluid change, I can't feel any pulsing in the pedal the few times that the ABS has gone off.

OK, fine. When did you take this marvelous combination of components to a road course and get the experience you need to advise me to leave the ABS on this car? Hmmm?

I am tickled pink that you like the EP3 ABS.

On the street, it's fine.

I need for EBD to be disabled on the track, and if I can't do that, I will need to disable the entire ABS system.

[don4501]

Good post Chunky!

I totally agree with you on the minor upgrades before bashing the abs system.

To the moderators:
Could you maybe make a sticky post for the suspension/handling section that has to do with definitions and track talk?
ex..trailbreaking, esses, decreasing radius turn etc.

I know this is the wrong section but I wanted to post regarding Chuky's input.

-Don

[chunky]

Originally posted by George Knighton


Oh, my god!! You most certainly are NOT using the handbrake to trailbrake!!

The definition of trailbraking simply is that you still have the brakes applied when you start the turn into the apex.

You do this to maximise speed and accelerate the car's rotation.


I call that left foot braking. I guess i've been (erroneously) applying trail braking to using the hand brake to cause the back end to "trail" out. Left foot braking has the same effect, but not as drastic.



Look, I'm not going to sit here and argue with people who don't know what they're talking about and don't understand my question.

The EP3 ABS is not as competent as the ITR ABS, and it is not good for track use. Period. All questions that I ask in regards to disabling the ABS or EBD are in relation to track use.

That's all I'm interested in.

If you track your EP3 and you understand the question, then please help with it if you know what I'm asking.

Otherwise, forget it. You're not helping.


I'm not into tracking my EP, as my suspension is NOT built for high speed use at the present time. Maybe in the future I'll do some hot laps at road atlanta.



Come on out to VIR or Summit Point w/me and I will illustrate the problem to you. In Turn 5 at Summit Point, the car tries to make you slid off to the right instead of turning left.

Your only alternative is to take the turn slower than you could in any number of other cars in order to avoid ABS.


Or you could tweak your suspension in order to avoid having to left foot brake at all.



OK, fine. When did you take this marvelous combination of components to a road course and get the experience you need to advise me to leave the ABS on this car? Hmmm?

I am tickled pink that you like the EP3 ABS.

On the street, it's fine.

I need for EBD to be disabled on the track, and if I can't do that, I will need to disable the entire ABS system.

EBD is just like an intelligent proportioning valve. I don't know why you'd want to disable it. The wheels with the most traction are the ones that should recieve the most brake force (balanced with a need to keep the car straight). At speed, the stock ABS system shouldn't trip (i'm talking above 60mph) unless your tires are really crappy. I just don't see that the stock brake system has the power to lock up the wheels above 60mph. And if they are locking up the wheels, then your problem is that you don't have enough traction - not that the abs system sucks. More traction ensures that the wheels are harder to lock up, which makes ABS much much less intrusive.

Try it out sometime. How about this, you disable ABS, and I'll run my car as it is - new wheels tires (225/50/15 on a 15x7 wheel), new pads (porterfield r4-s), new brakefluid (valvoline synthetic, boil point +500deg F). And we'll see how you do?

I've got 2+ years of auto-x experience thus far. Auto-x is very demanding on the brakes - ABS interference is MUCH more of an issue at lower speed racing than at high speed racing. The stock brakes DID engage the ABS much too soon, and overall the braking performance was not up to par. So i took the necessary steps to upgrade the braking performance instead of complaining about the ABS. And now the braking system suits me just fine, the only things i'll add are mere formalities at this point, stainless steel lines, and new rotors.

Before I even think about road racing this car, it will have heavier duty calipers, possibly larger front rotors, and air ducting to cool the front brakes.

And the EBD is not anywhere near as intrusive as you've imagined. The SI plows into turns b/c it was designed with safe understeering at the limit. So coming into a turn, if you brake, the car will plow. ESPECIALLY if your brake hard. left foot braking is very subtle - shifts weight to the front to reduce traction in rear. In that case, the EBD would maintain braking to the front wheels and the rear wheel that is on the outside of the direction of rotation. So yes, it does impede rotation somewhat, but left foot braking isn't an action that's designed to cause drastic rotation.

[George Knighton]

Man, I don't know who you think you're talking to, but you're coming across as incompetent.

Trailbraking is not left foot braking.

You'll use left foot braking in the last turn at Jeff Circuit to throw the car to the left while you still have the throttle applied.

That's the only reason to left foot brake...to keep the throttle on.

Trailbraking is done w/the right foot. You keep the brakes on hard while you turn the car, ball-n-ball the throttle to downshift in the turn, and then floor it out of the turn.


I call that left foot braking. Well, then, I'd call you "wrong."


EBD is just like an intelligent proportioning valve. I don't know why you'd want to disable it. Are you not reading my posts at all? I explained to you why I want to disable it...because it conspires to throw the car in a direction other than the one intended.


How about this, you disable ABS, and I'll run my car as it is - new wheels tires (225/50/15 on a 15x7 wheel), new pads (porterfield r4-s), new brakefluid (valvoline synthetic, boil point +500deg F). And we'll see how you do? How about this...you don't talk unless you know what you're talking about?

I am not about to engage in a contest of speed with a child.

However, if you'd like to come out to a NASA event sometime, I am sure that I will be able to adequately demonstrate what's wrong w/the EBD.

What part of the country are you in? I can probably arrange a demonstration by a NASA instructor near you.

I will try very hard to tone down the rhetoric, but it's just infuriating that you're firing off these salvos while very clearly not knowing what you're talking about.

Can you maybe step back and accept the fact that there might be people here with more track experience than you? People who might actually not talk unless they know what they're talking about?

[craig]

#1 you should know the limits of your braking system
(a good thing)

#2 you should test them in a safe place.

#3 pull the parking brake up 1 or 2 clicks untill the
brake light comes on ...when it does, ABS=off
(dont wrench the p-brake up)

4#i dont really have a 4, but it looks like i am working
(i am at work right now) type....type....middlefinger..type

also the reason that some people (not u people in specific )
blame ABS for cause in accidents is because when it
does start to cycle..people become afraid that its not working
or its going to break..or it feels weird.

your not going to break your breaks..

N.

[chunky]

Originally posted by George Knighton
Man, I don't know who you think you're talking to, but you're coming across as incompetent.

Trailbraking is not left foot braking.

You'll use left foot braking in the last turn at Jeff Circuit to throw the car to the left while you still have the throttle applied.

That's the only reason to left foot brake...to keep the throttle on.

Trailbraking is done w/the right foot. You keep the brakes on hard while you turn the car, ball-n-ball the throttle to downshift in the turn, and then floor it out of the turn.

Well, then, I'd call you "wrong."

i've already said that my understanding of trail braking is wrong.


Are you not reading my posts at all? I explained to you why I want to disable it...because it conspires to throw the car in a direction other than the one intended.

How about this...you don't talk unless you know what you're talking about?

I am not about to engage in a contest of speed with a child.


at the risk of stooping to your level of insults, your tone and demeanor in this discourse more appropriately mirrors that of a child.



However, if you'd like to come out to a NASA event sometime, I am sure that I will be able to adequately demonstrate what's wrong w/the EBD.

What part of the country are you in? I can probably arrange a demonstration by a NASA instructor near you.

I will try very hard to tone down the rhetoric, but it's just infuriating that you're firing off these salvos while very clearly not knowing what you're talking about.

Can you maybe step back and accept the fact that there might be people here with more track experience than you? People who might actually not talk unless they know what they're talking about?

First of all, none of my statements were meant to be taken as a end all be all on the topic. I'm not trying to "OWN" this discussion as you clearly are. I'm not well read in the syntax of all the special terms that describe driving techniques - most of my driving experience is learned on track. However, I do remain competitive in the respective classes that I choose to participate in at a local level.

I'm offering up my experiences - take it or leave it.

My profile states my location, Atlanta GA. I see you're in Northern Virgina. Next time i'm visiting friends in DC, I'll be sure to let you know I'm in the area. Hopefully there will be some event or another where you can demonstrate your braking frustrations to me, and I can observe firsthand what you mean.

on the topic of trailbraking. . . .


taken from http://www.getfaster.com/Techtips/Physics23.html
Trail-braking is a subtle driving technique that allows for later braking and increased corner entry speed. The classical technique is to complete braking before turn-in. This is a safer, easier technique for the driver because it separates traction management into two phases, braking and cornering, so the driver doesn't have to chew gum and walk at the same time, as it were. With the trail-braking technique, the driver carries braking into the corner, gradually trailing off the brakes while winding in the steering. Since braking continues in the corner, it's possible to delay its onset in the preceding straight braking zone. Since it eliminates the sub-optimal moments between the ramp-down from braking and the ramp-up to limit cornering by overlapping them, entry speeds can be higher. The combination of these two effects means that the advantage of later braking is carried through the first part of the corner. In many ways, this is the flip side to corner exit, where any speed advantage due to superior technique gets carried all the way down the ensuing straight. The magnitude of the trail-braking effect is much smaller, though: perhaps a car length or two for a typical corner. Done consistently, though, it can accumulate to whole seconds over a course

Oddly enough, I do that all the time on the auto-x with little drama. I just never had a name for it.

[LordKoo]

George Knighton, you are full of it!

You kept mentioning and comparing EP to ITR! It is a freaking different cars! It is like comparing apples to oranges!

ITR = Factory built race car, what do you expect from the system put in it?

EP = Factory built street car, what do you think is the best compromise on the street?

All I was saying our ABS and EBD combined is a good all round package for most drivers. With your darn selfish comments, it could spell misinfo to EP owners that our ABS is inadequate (which is not true)!

I seriously doubt you are some kind of good track driver! Why? A good driver will always able to work around with current setting in a car and achieve the best driving ability without saying this or that sucks!

Just open the hood and yuck out all the ABS wires and modules... Or better still, don't drive an EP then... Stick with your ITR!

[George Knighton]

George Knighton, you are full of it!

Yeah?


You kept mentioning and comparing EP to ITR!

I was forced into that by your compatriot, who appeared to allege that the EP ABS was adequate for the track.

The comparison was made only to help illustrate that I did know the difference between a track adequate ABS and one that performed inadequately for the track.


I seriously doubt you are some kind of good track driver!

Wow. I guess it's a good thing for me that what you think doesn't matter very much.

[George Knighton]

Originally posted by chunky
I'm not trying to "OWN" this discussion as you clearly are. My rhetoric was not conducive to a happy discussion. I apologize for not doing better.

It became fairly evident at some point that no one could answer my question, and the mortar shells you two were lobbing at me were also a little irritating.

None of you seemed the least bit willing to accept the possibility that I did, after all, know what I was talking about, and you both kept going off on tangents instead of trying to seriously address the question...which question neither of you can address, evidently.

What a grand waste of time this has been.

[chunky]

Originally posted by George Knighton
My rhetoric was not conducive to a happy discussion. I apologize for not doing better.

It became fairly evident at some point that no one could answer my question, and the mortar shells you two were lobbing at me were also a little irritating.

None of you seemed the least bit willing to accept the possibility that I did, after all, know what I was talking about, and you both kept going off on tangents instead of trying to seriously address the question...which question neither of you can address, evidently.

What a grand waste of time this has been.

I wouldn't say I was lobbing mortar shells at you - but moreso I was trying to get at exactly why said you had so much dissatisfaction with the stock braking system.

What brake upgrades have you performed on your car? if it's a stock brake setup, and you are not happy with it's performance during race conditions, I can identify with that situation. But I don't think that disabling the ABS/EBD is going to solve your problems. I was just attempting to suggest to you to try some basic brake/suspension upgrades to see if you could remedy your issues. I wasn't too pleased with stock brakes either - that's why they're not 100% stock anymore - you'll find as you upgrade, the brake's electronic brain becomes less intrustive. That I know for a fact, and that is the essence of what i've been trying to communicate to you. Get more traction, get pads that don't turn to mush when hot, get brake fluid that won't vaporize, and you'll see a HUGE improvement in all aspects.

I can trail brake in the fashion you've described just fine now that i've upgraded the brakes/tires. Before, I wouldn't have tried doing that b/c the stock tires don't provide enough traction to brake AND corner at the same time.

[chunky]

btw, just so it's not a total waste of your time, to disable the ABS, just pull the fuse. The ABS and EBD are controlled by the same system, so the same fuse should disable both. should be in the engine compartment fuse box. I'll find it when I get home and tell you where it is exactly.

[George Knighton]

In my first post, what I said would be great is finding a way to disable what I mistakenly called the "ESP" without disabling the ABS.

[iR-VTEC2]

Actually George, i was talkin to natesi

[craig]

i dont want to get in the way of your arguments......

but i replyed to the question on the previous page...




n.

[Jpax]

Wow

This hasnt been locked yet?


*drinks beer* weres type X ?

*eats chips*

[zerofighter]

natesi needs some driving lessons.

[zerofighter]

and better tires

[trk]

Sorry to revive this dead thread but Its 4 pages long and not once does any one answer the question posted in the title.

How do you disable ABS?

I pulled my ABS fuse...

FYI, by the time I got home it was squeaking on every rotation unless I touch the brakes, with the brakes pressed the sound goes away.

Fuck.

Any ideas? George?

[Stealth Wedgy]

Not to throw gas on the fire, but if your ABS was fucking up and you where trying to stop in a parking space, why didnt you pull your e-brake?

[trk]

Originally posted by Stealth Wedgy
Not to throw gas on the fire, but if your ABS was fucking up and you where trying to stop in a parking space, why didnt you pull your e-brake?

Are you talking to me?

[glw]

disabling abs is as easy as pulling the fuse under the dash. i did it at my last auto-x practice and found that braking with upgraded brakes and without abs is quite difficult. it was so easy to lock them up... i have to relearn how to brake. i spun on 3 out of 4 runs.

the brake and abs lights come on after you pull the fuse and then extinguish after you put it back... no problems (unless you want to count my lack of skills).


ps: grandpa george knows his stuff

[amctmg]

The only problem I have with the abs is in the snow an emergency stop takes forever, you can stand on the brakes as hard as you want and the car says no not yet I see a spot way up ahead there I would like to stop at. but disable the abs and you can stop when you want which is about half as far as abs. So ABS is good in dry for a panic stop in a straight line and even in the rain but as for snow it will cause accidents.

[Stealth Wedgy]

i was talking to the original writer of th e thread

[siver-SI]

Ok most of you are missing the point of what ABS if for. ABS is made so the wheels do not lock and so you can turn the car in hard braking to avoid something. ABS was designed not for stoping strait to shorting brake distance, but it was designed for stoping while turning to avoid an object. Have you ever tryed to turn a car with out ABS and it's wheels locked up?

Are stock brakes suck lets face it. The rotor and pads are shit. Everyone that I know that has upgraded the pads and or rotors are so much happier with their EP.

[George Knighton]

Originally posted by siver-SI
Ok most of you are missing the point of what ABS if for. ABS is made so the wheels do not lock and so you can turn the car in hard braking to avoid something. ABS was designed not for stoping strait to shorting brake distance....

I'm kind of sorry this thread's back. :o

You're generally correct in what you've said; however, I'd like to point out that Honda/Acura is entirely capable of making better ABS systems. For example, it's virtually impossible for a driver to stop on a dry track in a shorter distance than the ITR ABS allows, and in Honda Challenge, the ITR ABS is a huge advantage over all other Hondas and Acuras.

If you've ever watched a Honda Challenge race, you'll notice immediately how much deeper into a corner the ITR are going w/their ABS.

What started the whole ABS thing a year ago was that Jack Harris and other road course drivers who had EP3 wanted to disconnect the brake balancing, but not necessarily the ABS.

The consensus reached since that time is that you can only disable the entire mechanism (which is easy, just pull the fuse), but you cannot disable just the brake steadying (stability control, or whatever it's called).

The drivers who started all this a while back do not necessarily object to the ABS, even if it's not as good as the ITR ABS. What they object to is the computer trying to balance the braking forces to point them in a straight line while they are trying to turn.

The reality of life on the track w/an EP3 is that if your motor's stock and you're on R comps, you probably won't be going fast enough to be able to over ride the adhesion of the R comps when braking.. :D


.

[trk]

Originally posted by George Knighton
I'm kind of sorry this thread's back. :o

You're generally correct in what you've said; however, I'd like to point out that Honda/Acura is entirely capable of making better ABS systems. For example, it's virtually impossible for a driver to stop on a dry track in a shorter distance than the ITR ABS allows, and in Honda Challenge, the ITR ABS is a huge advantage over all other Hondas and Acuras.

If you've ever watched a Honda Challenge race, you'll notice immediately how much deeper into a corner the ITR are going w/their ABS.

What started the whole ABS thing a year ago was that Jack Harris and other road course drivers who had EP3 wanted to disconnect the brake balancing, but not necessarily the ABS.

The consensus reached since that time is that you can only disable the entire mechanism (which is easy, just pull the fuse), but you cannot disable just the brake steadying (stability control, or whatever it's called).

The drivers who started all this a while back do not necessarily object to the ABS, even if it's not as good as the ITR ABS. What they object to is the computer trying to balance the braking forces to point them in a straight line while they are trying to turn.

The reality of life on the track w/an EP3 is that if your motor's stock and you're on R comps, you probably won't be going fast enough to be able to over ride the adhesion of the R comps when braking.. :D


.

Yeah, I'm sorry for the revival. I remember this thread from its original go around...

[Peking]

Originally posted by trk
Yeah, I'm sorry for the revival. I remember this thread from its original go around...

Wow, just pretty much read the thread :eek:

Great info, even if some things are not consistant on what to be called correctly :D

But I would have to say to you George, that it looks like you kinda started it by knocking on LordKoo (who was talking to someone else) :( Which what you posted wasn't to bad honestly. Then Chunky says something, then you kinda go off on him.

From reading the posts, Chunky tone was much more mild then yours. So coming off like that might not have been the best when getting your point across. Anyway I am glad this thread died down and you are posting :D


Oh and cause I have way to much free time :D I peaked at your old posts and even though this is way off topic I agree with this post 100%



Originally posted by George Knighton
It looks like we intend to go into Iraq and administer it with the British no matter what happens.
I'm afraid that the machine we have started up will not be stopped until it's used.
Hussein has to go...no argument. But even our staunchest ally, the United Kingdom, is trying to slow us down.
The UK has introduced wording into a UN resolution that Bush specifically said he didn't want to be there, and the UK keeps trying to slow us down. At first they were slowing us down a season at a time, and now they are slowing us down a week and a day at a time.
Something is wrong.
Hussein has to go, but something's wrong for the British to be slowing us down this way.
Before the Gulf War, I caught this blurb in a government newsgroup:
Now, I'm catching blurbs like:
I know a lot about the way the British constitution works...and something is wrong if the Queen is interfering to that extent.
Hussein has to go, but we are already too much viewed as the enemy of the Arab nations, and we need to be very careful to administer Iraq effectively and obviously to the benefit of the Iraqis.
And, let's face it people...we are never going to bring an end to Arab terrorism until we face up to our responsibility and make sure that there is a Palestinian homeland.
All this terrorism can be traced back to Palestinian rights and we need to move with all possible speed to make sure there is a Palestinian state that they can call home, even if it ends up being federated with Jordan for its own protection.
Hussein has to go...but we'd better be careful how we do it.