Upgrading/replacing stock brakes. Suggestions?

[SHHEP3@UB]

Nothing crazy, just need to replace aging OE equivalent brake parts. I'm looking for "street performance", something better than stock for the weekend autocross, but not a track setup. By reading some threads on here and some other sites, it seams like to most common suggestions call for Hawk HPS pads with cheap rotors from a store like autozone because their aren't any benefits with drilled and slotted rotors on a stock setup. I'm sold on the HPS pads, but would like some suggestions on the rotors because i'm a little afraid of buying cheap stuff from autozone/pep boys/advance auto parts. Tire Rack has all the super expensive drilled and slotted rotors, but their "Centric Premium" for $30 each and "Centric Cryo-Stop" for $36 seam like safe bets.

I'm also planning on changing the brake fluid because I'm the second owner of the car and I don't know how old it is. The shop manual calls for Honda DOT 3 brake fluid, but is there any reason to look for something a little more performance rated?

[BeaterEP]

Hawk HPS pads
generic rotors
ATE Super Blue fluid
braided stainless steel brake hoses

Enjoy! :mbiggrin:

[Lucid Moments]

Hawk HPS pads
generic rotors
ATE Super Blue fluid
braided stainless steel brake hoses

Enjoy! :mbiggrin:

^^

What he said. Great fun DD and autocross setup.

[Zzyzx]

Its hard to mess up cast iron... Just like its hard to improve cast iron. so, for the most part, Rotors is rotors is rotors. buy the cheapest set you can find.

[nmrwr85]

Sorry but as a proffesional technician, I can say that there are differences in a quality drilled or slotted rotor, and a "stock" replacement from checker, autozone, etc. Since you don't want to do a big brake upgrade, there are still benefits of a drilled rotor. If you'll be doing the occasional track day, drilled rotors will resist brake fade, and handle the heat much better. Also as far as brake fluid goes, go with what the manufacturer recommends. You may choose a better brand than honda brake fluid, but stick with the DOT3.

I went with the StopTech stage 2 upgrade with cross drilled rotors, stainless steel braided lines, and pads...Couldnt be happier, unless i did a BIG BRAKE upgrade.

[SHHEP3@UB]

Thanks for all the replies! Not going to argue about the logic behind drilled and slotted, but I don't think they suit my needs. It's going to be a while till I do a track day, so this will be DD and the occasional autocross. I currently have Brembo slotted rotors on the front from the previous owner, and I would have to say they corroded much faster and much worse than the stock replacements in the rear due to the upstate NY winters.

Now, is there trade-offs in lifespan or durability using something other than DOT-3 brake fluid? Honestly the ATE Super-Blue sounds like a good product:

http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/accessoryDetail.jsp?ID=21

[Zzyzx]

As someone who has done track days, and seen first hand the "advantages" of drilled rotors. I say avoid them entirely for any sort of performance application. They definitely do not help cool the rotor any better then a blank nor do they resist fade any better (hello Reduced mass). From what I've seen they seem to only serve as a source of cracks when subjected to heavy use. Back in the day (50's and beyond..) they served a useful purpose, as the binding agents in brake pads back then had a bad habit of vaporizing under excessive heat. Venting the rotor by drilling it gave this gas a place to go, thus reducing the chance of whats called Green fade, or gassing out of the brakes. Lucky for us brakes don't suffer from this problem which renders drilled rotors obsolete, leaving us with only the down side of the process.

Granted Slotting does serve a purpose, as they will help reduce the chance of glazing your pads under heavy use. But then, if you aren't having issues with glazing then they wouldn't be a useful part now would they? As far as drilled... avoid them for anything other then light use and vanity.


For a race teams viewpoint on the subject, here's a nice little article from a brake engineer & amateur race car driver
http://www.teamscr.com/motorsports/tech-articles/46-those-poor-rotors.html

The largest difference in rotor performance I've seen comes not from the rotors surface, but rather the internal vein construction. That's where your improved cooling is going to come from.

[hondaguy92129]

Well just me .02 but I'm using Brembo Blanks and they are working great :) A lot more expensive than the autozone generics though. Honestly I just upgraded my brakes for looks pretty much as my car is just DD and never taken to the track or anything lol

[POOPTOOTH]

Sorry but as a proffesional technician, I can say that there are differences in a quality drilled or slotted rotor, and a "stock" replacement from checker, autozone, etc. Since you don't want to do a big brake upgrade, there are still benefits of a drilled rotor. If you'll be doing the occasional track day, drilled rotors will resist brake fade, and handle the heat much better. Also as far as brake fluid goes, go with what the manufacturer recommends. You may choose a better brand than honda brake fluid, but stick with the DOT3.

I went with the StopTech stage 2 upgrade with cross drilled rotors, stainless steel braided lines, and pads...Couldnt be happier, unless i did a BIG BRAKE upgrade.

Good thing you're not a PROFESSIONAL grammar teacher...:mangel: :mbiggrin:

As someone who has done track days, and seen first hand the "advantages" of drilled rotors. I say avoid them entirely for any sort of performance application. They definitely do not help cool the rotor any better then a blank nor do they resist fade any better (hello Reduced mass). From what I've seen they seem to only serve as a source of cracks when subjected to heavy use. Back in the day (50's and beyond..) they served a useful purpose, as the binding agents in brake pads back then had a bad habit of vaporizing under excessive heat. Venting the rotor by drilling it gave this gas a place to go, thus reducing the chance of whats called Green fade, or gassing out of the brakes. Lucky for us brakes don't suffer from this problem which renders drilled rotors obsolete, leaving us with only the down side of the process.

Granted Slotting does serve a purpose, as they will help reduce the chance of glazing your pads under heavy use. But then, if you aren't having issues with glazing then they wouldn't be a useful part now would they? As far as drilled... avoid them for anything other then light use and vanity.


For a race teams viewpoint on the subject, here's a nice little article from a brake engineer & amateur race car driver
http://www.teamscr.com/motorsports/tech-articles/46-those-poor-rotors.html

The largest difference in rotor performance I've seen comes not from the rotors surface, but rather the internal vein construction. That's where your improved cooling is going to come from.

And the master speaks... lol. Listen to this guy. ^

[SHHEP3@UB]

And the master speaks... lol. Listen to this guy. ^

I agree. I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to this stuff and I like to do my reading on the topic on why things work before I buy anything, and Zzyzx has always supplied great links on all sorts of info on brakes, suspension, and handling. Very good info on the slotted rotors. When I get home form work, I will go through the link you posted.

So, I've decided on the blanks, and I'll make the decison on where to get them based on what deals I can get. While I'm pulling the brakes apart, any other suggestions in replacing parts in the calipers like springs, pins, etc? The Honda shop manual mentions nothing but changing the brake fluid every three years, but the car's got 146K on it right now.

thanks again everybody!

[T_Virus]

professional technician in???:mangel:

[hondaguy92129]

I agree. I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to this stuff and I like to do my reading on the topic on why things work before I buy anything, and Zzyzx has always supplied great links on all sorts of info on brakes, suspension, and handling. Very good info on the slotted rotors. When I get home form work, I will go through the link you posted.

So, I've decided on the blanks, and I'll make the decison on where to get them based on what deals I can get. While I'm pulling the brakes apart, any other suggestions in replacing parts in the calipers like springs, pins, etc? The Honda shop manual mentions nothing but changing the brake fluid every three years, but the car's got 146K on it right now.

thanks again everybody!

Maybe the rubber seals?

[nmrwr85]

professional technician in???:mangel:

Im a professional technician at a BMW dealership...and prior to this, I was a professional aircraft technician....Any other smart :moon: questions?

I guess everyone has their opinion on what works best...good thing its just an opinion, and not always what actually works best.

[Lucid Moments]

Im a professional technician at a BMW dealership...and prior to this, I was a professional aircraft technician....Any other smart :moon: questions?

I guess everyone has their opinion on what works best...good thing its just an opinion, and not always what actually works best.

Okay, you say that there is a difference in quality, then what is that difference? Is it better metallurgy? Better machining? And how does that difference make a brake rotor work better?

[Zzyzx]

No one should take anyone's word as "the last word" on an internet forum, least of all mine.

Other ideas spur debate, which can only lead to a fuller understanding of the subject matter. Its how we learn.

[nmrwr85]

Okay, you say that there is a difference in quality, then what is that difference? Is it better metallurgy? Better machining? And how does that difference make a brake rotor work better?

Actually my words were "that there are differences in a quality drilled or slotted rotor, and a "stock" replacement from checker, autozone, etc."
Meaning there are differences between a drilled or slotted rotor, and a solid rotor.
Let me put it like this...
Having a holes drilled into any of your brake parts may seem counterintuitive, especially the brake rotors -- after all, a rotor full of holes means that there's less surface area for the brake pads to grab and stop the car -- but there are a few reasons drilled rotors make sense. The first is heat. When the brake pad grabs the rotor, it creates friction, which creates heat. If that heat can't escape, it leads to brake fade, which reduces the brakes' stopping power. The second reason is gas build up. This actually isn't much of a problem any more; however, the materials used in some older types of brake pads caused gas to build up between the rotors and pads. That gas also limited stopping power. The last reason is water. If a car drives through a puddle, a carwash or even a rainstorm, the brake rotors can get wet. A wet brake rotor is slippery and difficult for the brake pads to grab. Having drilled holes on a brake rotor makes it easy for heat, gas and water to be quickly moved away from the rotor surface, keeping the brake performance strong.

[Zzyzx]

Having a holes drilled into any of your brake parts may seem counterintuitive, especially the brake rotors -- after all, a rotor full of holes means that there's less surface area for the brake pads to grab and stop the car
Basic Physics, Friction is not subject to surface area.
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/phy99/phy99449.htm
http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/friction_equation.htm



-- but there are a few reasons drilled rotors make sense. The first is heat. When the brake pad grabs the rotor, it creates friction, which creates heat. If that heat can't escape, it leads to brake fade, which reduces the brakes' stopping power.
The second reason is gas build up. This actually isn't much of a problem any more; however, the materials used in some older types of brake pads caused gas to build up between the rotors and pads. That gas also limited stopping power. The last reason is water. If a car drives through a puddle, a carwash or even a rainstorm, the brake rotors can get wet. A wet brake rotor is slippery and difficult for the brake pads to grab. Having drilled holes on a brake rotor makes it easy for heat, gas and water to be quickly moved away from the rotor surface, keeping the brake performance strong.


straight from Stoptech them selves.
DRILLED VS SLOTTED ROTORS

For many years most racing rotors were drilled. There were two reasons - the holes gave the "fireband" boundary layer of gasses and particulate matter someplace to go and the edges of the holes gave the pad a better "bite".

Unfortunately the drilled holes also reduced the thermal capacity of the discs and served as very effective "stress raisers" significantly decreasing disc life. Improvements in friction materials have pretty much made the drilled rotor a thing of the past in racing. Most racing rotors currently feature a series of tangential slots or channels that serve the same purpose without the attendant disadvantages. emphasis mine.

[Lucid Moments]

I will add on the reducing heat subject. When you put holes in a rotor you actually reduce the area available for the rotor to transfer the heat. Think about it. With a solid surface the rotor will radiate the heat (actually it is both radiation, and convection at work here to an extent) over the whole surface area. And this is the surface area on four sides (rotor is sort of hollow in the middle right? With vanes to direct airflow?) You drill a hole and you actually decrease the surface area. I could do the math I suppose but it is going to be variable depending on the thickness of the rotor.

[Zzyzx]

^^^ there's a "magic" ratio of hole diamiter to rotor thickness, though I forget what it is. Exceed that ratio and you end up actually reducing total surface area rather then increasing it.

[Tougeep3]

The largest difference in rotor performance I've seen comes not from the rotors surface, but rather the internal vein construction. That's where your improved cooling is going to come from.


Okay, you say that there is a difference in quality, then what is that difference? Is it better metallurgy? Better machining? And how does that difference make a brake rotor work better?

One quote kinda answers the other to me.

[RHCP0801]

im surprised you havent given up yet on arguing this zzyzx, i remember this shit back on 7thgencivic.com

[Tougeep3]

The last reason is water. If a car drives through a puddle, a carwash or even a rainstorm, the brake rotors can get wet. A wet brake rotor is slippery and difficult for the brake pads to grab. Having drilled holes on a brake rotor makes it easy for heat, gas and water to be quickly moved away from the rotor surface, keeping the brake performance strong.

Isn't braking temperature measured in hundreds of degrees? (Up to the Thousand degree mark in some racing applications IIRC) I don't see the small amount of water that would actually still be on the rotor becoming a problem.
Another thing, isn't water one of the reasons they use rotors over drums, because centrifugal force tends to fling water off the brake disc and keep them dry..
Finally wouldn't water flash cooling a drilled rotor have a higher chance of cracking it than a solid rotor, more holes giving more edges for a crack to begin??

[Zzyzx]

im surprised you havent given up yet on arguing this zzyzx, i remember this shit back on 7thgencivic.com

Squashing the drilled rotor myths are easy now, its the BBK kiddies that are tough to convince...

[POOPTOOTH]

:tehehyper:

[RHCP0801]

lol bbk kiddies

[Tougeep3]

So a BBK is if you want to stop faster right?? :peep:

[Zzyzx]

There's always one. :jono:

[BeaterEP]

mad tyte jdm style yo!
If it looks cooler it must be better amitrite?!

[Paul 631]

Very happy with my current setup: HP+ pads, Ate fluid, brembo blanks (they seem to last much longer than other brands I've tried)...

[karxarias]

So what all can be done to improve the braking on our cars? From reading forum posts on here the general consensus is that you just use joe blow rotor, decent pads, upgraded brake fluid, stainless brake lines and decent tires. What else can be done to improve braking performance? There must be something because it's not like F1 cars are running that brake setup!

I don't know much about cars but I'm fairly knowledgeable when it comes to downhill mountain biking. And when it comes to biking upgrading from a 7" to an 8" rotor allows you to stop faster. Another thing I learned from that is any half-decent brake can lock your tires up whereas if you go from a 1 piston to a 2 piston brake you can lock your tires up sure, but have tons more modulation between no brakes and full lock up. Do the same types of rules apply to cars?

[Lucid Moments]

So what all can be done to improve the braking on our cars? From reading forum posts on here the general consensus is that you just use joe blow rotor, decent pads, upgraded brake fluid, stainless brake lines and decent tires. What else can be done to improve braking performance? There must be something because it's not like F1 cars are running that brake setup!

I don't know much about cars but I'm fairly knowledgeable when it comes to downhill mountain biking. And when it comes to biking upgrading from a 7" to an 8" rotor allows you to stop faster. Another thing I learned from that is any half-decent brake can lock your tires up whereas if you go from a 1 piston to a 2 piston brake you can lock your tires up sure, but have tons more modulation between no brakes and full lock up. Do the same types of rules apply to cars?

You have hit on one of the key areas where where BBKs can can really improve on the stock brakes and that is modulation. Most of the brake kits that I have seen come with both 4 piston calipers, and stainless steel lines both of which will help make modulation easier. Also by moving the caliper outward from the hub center a big brake kit will take less pedal pressure to achieve the same braking force and to me that makes it easier to modulate the brakes.

Keep in mind that I at least am not arguing that there is no point to a big brake kit. I have one on my car. (Wilwood) All I am arguing against is the idea that a more powerful car must need bigger brakes to make it stop faster.

[Zzyzx]

So what all can be done to improve the braking on our cars? From reading forum posts on here the general consensus is that you just use joe blow rotor, decent pads, upgraded brake fluid, stainless brake lines and decent tires. What else can be done to improve braking performance? There must be something because it's not like F1 cars are running that brake setup!

I don't know much about cars but I'm fairly knowledgeable when it comes to downhill mountain biking. And when it comes to biking upgrading from a 7" to an 8" rotor allows you to stop faster. Another thing I learned from that is any half-decent brake can lock your tires up whereas if you go from a 1 piston to a 2 piston brake you can lock your tires up sure, but have tons more modulation between no brakes and full lock up. Do the same types of rules apply to cars?

As per your example, F1 cars are running ridiculously sticky tires tied in with a whole lot of down force (adds to traction at the tires).

Also, are the brakes on your bike hydraulic or cable driven? curious as I haven't payed much attention to mountain bike tech.

simple way to look at it, there are 2 friction points in your brakes. #1 Rotor & caliper, #2 Tire and ground. Altering the brake torque output of one does not modify the brake torque output of the other. What that tells us is that which ever friction point has the least amount of brake torque output will determine how fast (60-0 distance) the car will stop in. And on a properly functioning brake system, that weak point is always going to be the Tire & ground interface.
this is why stopping distances greatly increase in wet weather or on dirt... the tires simply cant translate the brake torque at the caliper in to enough brake torque at the ground.

So, in a nut shell, everything in your brakes from the caliper back to the brake pedal deal primairly with 2 aspects of your cars brake performance. #1 Heat absorbtion and dissipation (arguably the more important of the two) and #2 Feel, everything from pedal throw to how much pressure you have to input in to the system. Where as the tire/ground interface deals only with slowing the car.

Also, there's a wrench to throw, Brake bias... Remember there are 4 tires on this car and as you step on that brake pedal weight gets transferred around them; which causes some tires to have an increase in traction and others a decrease in traction. If the brake bias isn't balance to deal with that well... you are going to have all sorts of problems from increased stopping distances to stability under braking issues.

[karxarias]

Also, are the brakes on your bike hydraulic or cable driven? curious as I haven't payed much attention to mountain bike tech.

Also, there's a wrench to throw, Brake bias... Remember there are 4 tires on this car and as you step on that brake pedal weight gets transferred around them; which causes some tires to have an increase in traction and others a decrease in traction. If the brake bias isn't balance to deal with that well... you are going to have all sorts of problems from increased stopping distances to stability under braking issues.

Current downhill mountain bikes use hydraulic disc brakes, same type of deal you would find on a motorcycle as most higher-end freeride/downhill parts are built by dirtbike part manufacturers like Marzocchi and Fox.

The reason I was asking was based on my experience in mountain bikes. For example there's a type of brakes called Hayes Nine (one-piston) which can lock up your tires for sure, but there is essentially no modulation, the brakes are either fully on and locking up your tire or not on at all, kind of like jamming a stick in your spokes and the brake levers require a fair bit of pressure in order to lock the tires up (ie: two fingers).

Now there are other brakes like Avid Codes which are a 2 piston design and can still lock up the tires but require much less pressure (ie: one finger) in order to lock up the brakes. The other benefit of these brakes is that they aren't stick in the spokes kind of brakes, they offer much more modulation. Now with these brakes versus the Hayes Nines with the exact same tires you stop in MUCH less distance (somewhere between 25-50% shorter). The idea being that when your tires are locked up you stop much less quickly than when you can modulate the brakes to the point they are 1% away from locking up thus maximizing stopping power.

Further still if you have brakes like Shimano Saints which offer 50% more stopping power and modulation over and above Avid Codes which still using the same rotor size (8") and 2-piston design and you can lock the brakes up with the tiniest bit of pressure. These brakes stop you in about 25% less distance than the Codes on the same tires.

The other part is I'm not sure about on cars but when it comes to bikes approximately 90% of your braking power comes from your front brakes and the remaining 10% from your back brakes. The way you can test this is try riding your bike down a hill and slamming on your back brakes and locking up your rear tire, I bet ya if you instead only use your front brakes you will stop much more quickly (though obviously don't superman yourself over the front tires!).

On a mountain bike with hydraulic brakes using essentially the exact same principals as car brakes increasing your rotor size allows you to stop faster as does improving the brakes themselves to a two piston design while not improving your tires one bit. It all seems to come down to calipers that can squeeze the rotors tighter than other models and having much more modulation than cheaper brake systems.

Better tires will make the biggest improvement in stopping distance for sure, but basically what I'm saying is that larger rotors and better more powerful brakes on the exact same tires, at least where mountain bikes are concerned do indeed decrease your stopping distance dramatically because it allows you to apply as much braking power as you can without locking up your tires.

[Zzyzx]

Some info on friction that may explain why the brakes that do not instantly lock up the tires offer shorter stopping distances then the ones that do lock up the tire.

There are two types of friction at play here, Static friction and Kinetic friction. Static friction is friction between two solid objects that are not moving relative to each other; such as a tire rolling on the ground. And then there is Kinetic friction which occurs when two objects are moving relative to each other and rub together; such as a locked tire sliding across the ground. With tires, rubber in general actually, the Static friction between the tire and ground will be greater then the Kinetic friction between the same. Meaning you will be able to transfer more brake torque to the asphalt when the tire is still rolling Vs when it is sliding/skidding.

So as per your example we can reasonably conclude that a brake system that allows for better modulation and thus allows the user to keep the tires rolling (in static friction) will perform better then a brake system that instantly locks the tire (to kinetic friction). Granted in your example the actual performance of said brakes will rely primarily on the skill of the user and their ability to keep the tires rolling while at the edge of locking up.


Edit: it should be noted that friction models of rubber do not apply well to dirt or other soft road surfaces, less so once you add in things like Knobby tires. Tread design plays a more prominent role in friction once you hit the dirt.

[karxarias]

So as per your example we can reasonably conclude that a brake system that allows for better modulation and thus allows the user to keep the tires rolling (in static friction) will perform better then a brake system that instantly locks the tire (to kinetic friction). Granted in your example the actual performance of said brakes will rely primarily on the skill of the user and their ability to keep the tires rolling while at the edge of locking up..

Taking that one step further does that not then imply that a big brake kit with more surface area and more pistons in the caliper, provided it's not built like cheap pos, would allow you better modulation? When it comes to mountain bikes improved brakes like the Shimano Saints in my example above help out immensely in modulating brakes and preventing lock-up.

When it comes to a car is there any kind of system short of your right foot (or left if you are exceptionally skilled) that will allow you to slam on the brakes but keep you that 1% away from locking the tires? I know there's ABS but that doesn't really prevent the tires from locking (at least not in my EP), rather it just seems to lock them up for a split second then release them then lock them up again.

For example in my EP I've found that if I slam on the brakes my tires will lock up and I will slide whereas if I push the brake pedal halfway down the tires won't lock up and I will stop in a much shorter distance than slamming the brakes.

[Zzyzx]

Not necessarily, First off friction is not subject to surface area on the macro scale, secondly the number of pistons doesn't tell yo anything about the caliper other then how many pistons it has; total piston area is what you need to know. Modulation aka brake feel can easily be adjusted by simply changing to pads with a more favorable torque curve or even changing the length of the leaver arm on the brake pedal.

anyway, most of what we are talking about is explained here "Braking systems... in plain English" (http://www.teamscr.com/motorsports/tech-articles/34-braking-systemsin-plain-english.html). its written by James Walker, Jr. of scR motorsports who is also a brake engineer.

to quote the last line of the article
In summary, brake system modifications have their place to help make your ride more consistent, predictable, and user-friendly; however, if your ultimate goal is to decrease your stopping distance, look no further than the four palm-sized patches of rubber connecting your ride to the ground.

ABS is your best bet as far as slamming on the brakes goes, else you'll have to learn to do whats called threshold braking. (http://www.trackpedia.com/wiki/Threshold_braking)

[karxarias]

anyway, most of what we are talking about is explained here "Braking systems... in plain English" (http://www.teamscr.com/motorsports/tech-articles/34-braking-systemsin-plain-english.html). its written by James Walker, Jr. of scR motorsports who is also a brake engineer.

to quote the last line of the article

ABS is your best bet as far as slamming on the brakes goes, else you'll have to learn to do whats called threshold braking. (http://www.trackpedia.com/wiki/Threshold_braking)

Wicked information! I'd done a bunch of searching on Google looking for exactly that kind of write-up but couldn't find much of anything. I'm not sure how it works but if I had my way those two links would be stickied. Between those two links it answered all my questions. I finally understand the use of stainless brake cables and how brakes actually work. Much appreciated!

[Zzyzx]

yeah, once you break the braking process down its easy to see where actual improvements in 60-0 distances come from. BBK's have their use, they just aren't what the average Joe driver thinks it is.

[Drew1d]

.02 I like the stock setup for a street car. Get fancy pads if you want, but the stock system in good condition works great. There are other places to put your money.

[hondaguy92129]

wow awesome info in this thread! thanks guys :)