RSX-S swap info...IT'S DONE!

[modern-perf]

Well guys, for the most part the K20A2 swap is done. Start to finish, including lunch and extra time needed to undo and redo stupid things, the whole swap took about 10 hours. Started at 1pm, test driving at 10:45.

First off, you DO NOT necessarily need a lift to do this job. We used a pair of normal jackstands and an engine hoist. By following the instructions in the recent Sport Compact Car, we undid everything, dropped the subframe out with the engine still hanging in the car by the chassis mounts. We then used the hoist to hold the engine, undid the mounts and lowered it to the floor. THEN, we used a chain wrapped around the bumper support (we took off the bumper) and lifted the car high enough to slide the engine out! Reverse procedure to install, and hot damn--200 hp!

I drove the car to the dealer this morning on the Si ECU and they charged me $80 to reprogram the A2 ECU to work with my key. The car runs fantastic....so smooth & strong, and what a beautiful noise the "real" VTEC makes with the AEM CAI .

THE BIGGEST PROBLEM with this swap is the shifter. What used to be reverse is now 6th gear, and the shifter doesn't reach far enough to grab the new gear. SCC magazine showed how you need to notch the shifter block but they didn't tell you how to pull the shifter to do it. It looks like the whole dash has to come out!!! I've called HASport to see what they did but haven't heard back yet. I'll post that info when I get it.

By the way, the Si exhaust header bolts right to the A2 block, therefore eliminating the need for a custom exhaust; unless of course you don't already have one.

I'll get pics up soon!

[myeverlovinsir]

Wow! That is great work. You get the early x-mas pres.
Congrats! :p

[natesi]

Originally posted by myeverlovinsir
Wow! That is great work. You get the early x-mas pres.
Congrats! :p

Is it possible to do just the engine AND ECU swap without the 6 speed??

Please tell me how you got the speedo and Si gauges to work with the Type-S ECU... I always wonder about that when I read about swaps in cars...

Thanks,

-nate

[sicivic2002]

Damn man right on. So since you didn't do that shifter portion does that mean you have no reverse right now? Congrats on the swap though.

[IceD out N CALI]

sweeeet!

[CleanBlackSi02]

Congrats! Give us some more info and pics!!

[02blksi]

NICE! how much and where did you get the engine for ? thanks--Yes pics are a must when available :) -- Joe.

[natesi]

Originally posted by myeverlovinsir
I don't think The type-S engine would mate with our tranny.


Why not? Same block and tranny housing, right?



Modern-perf got his ECU flashed to the Type-S at the dealers, so this is why it works with our gauges.

eh??

He went to the dealership to get the key and ECU to work together--that's it.

I'm pretty sure you can't say, "Oh yea, and while you're at it, please add the Civic Si 'gauge package' to that, will ya?"

Know what I mean? I'm almost positive it doesn't work like that. Programmatically it doesn't make sense.

[Whooopasss]

congrats!!!! that sounds sooo sweeettt..

[!@#$%]

yeah after reading that SCC article the swap seemed pretty 'cut and dry'. not really hard becuase its so straight forward but really time consuming.

[Max]

Congratulations man, and good luck with your new engine, I was going to buy that engine but I decided to get type R swap.
I just ordered RSX R engine last week. Cant wait to get it.

[ep3guy]

congrats, hope to see you at a meet!

[1fastminivan]

So for the swap......is there no Hasport motor mounts required?? Does the K20A2 literally drop right in with no modification??

PS: YOUR ONE LUCKY GUY!!!;)

[Shpoo]

Wow! You didn't waste anytime before you swapped motors. Damn I'm still kicking myself in the a$$ for not buying it. :confused:

[greenguy]

Originally posted by Max
Congratulations man, and good luck with your new engine, I was going to buy that engine but I decided to get type R swap.
I just ordered RSX R engine last week. Cant wait to get it.
Where and how much $$$$
thanks.

[hacim]

The ITR swap will run you from 6300 to 7000. Thats all the stuff you need. Motor, tranny, wiring harness, ecu and lsd. That definetly would be the way to go if I had 7k to throw around. An extra 60 horses NA. Thats like throwing a small turbo on our motor.

[CleanBlackSi02]

I've seen the entire swap quoted much lower than that...

[ssvr6]

He got the Type S ECU to work with his Si key. That's what the dealer charged him $80 for.

Great work, I'd love to see some pics of it all done.


Steve

[HondaMan]

Sweet...nice work...looking forward to pics of your swap!

[modern-perf]

Hey guys, sorry I've been gone for a day and a half....got a nasty case of the flu.

Anyway, the engine literally drops right in. And you could use the 5 speed since it bolts up the same, but the 6 speed is soooooo nice!

The dealer charged $80 to reprogram the RSX ECU to work with my key. I still haven't gotten used to shifting at 8000 RPM yet...and fuel cut is right about when the tach needle points to 30 mph on the speedo.

Pictures should be up by this weekend.

[golferjn]

congrats on the swap. hope you have lots of fun

[Nosjunke]

When you get a chance, can you try a few pulls in 2nd gear to fuel cut and see if it gets you to 60mph?

[IceD out N CALI]

come down to southern cali to one of our meets, I would love to see that in person:)

[modern-perf]

I'll try some 2nd gear runs today at lunch!

[natesi]

Originally posted by modern-perf
I'll try some 2nd gear runs today at lunch!


I'm very, very curious how you got the speedo and all the Si gauges to work. Would you mind explaining when you have a chance, please?

Thanks,

-nate

[modern-perf]

What's to explain? They work fine. Since the RSX harness plugs directly into our car everything is already there. The only odd thing is redline shows to be 6800 on the Si tach but now it is more like 8200 or so (our tach only reads to 8000.)

Anybody have a spare UK-spec Type R cluster lying around?
:D

[natesi]

Originally posted by modern-perf
What's to explain? They work fine. Since the RSX harness plugs directly into our car everything is already there. The only odd thing is redline shows to be 6800 on the Si tach but now it is more like 8200 or so (our tach only reads to 8000.)

Anybody have a spare UK-spec Type R cluster lying around?
:D

I don't know why I have a mental block with this, sorry. Okay, I *get* the connections work, but I DONT get anything else.


I just don't see how hooking up a different set of gauges to an ECU it wasn't designed for will read correctly. I mean, the Si cluster is in a different scale than the RSX cluster.

So the ECU is sending a signal to move the speedo to a certian postion, where it might read 20mph in a RSX, but it doesn't know you have a Si intrament cluster, so if it moves it the same amount on our cluster it might be reading like 15 mph, or something.

See what I mean?

Also, doesn't the RSX ECU take into consideration the tire package on an RSX (wheel diameter) and how fast that turns the hub to calculate speed? Well, the tire package on the Si is different, and therefore turns the hub at a different speed, right?

How can it compensate for different tires and a different gauge package. I don't get it.

[rhs29]

i am with the MAX guy....dropping in a DC5 engine defintely the way to go!...

[AJWUZHERE]

Originally posted by natesi


I just don't see how hooking up a different set of gauges to an ECU it wasn't designed for will read correctly. I mean, the Si cluster is in a different scale than the RSX cluster.

So the ECU is sending a signal to move the speedo to a certian postion, where it might read 20mph in a RSX, but it doesn't know you have a Si intrament cluster, so if it moves it the same amount on our cluster it might be reading like 15 mph, or something.

See what I mean?



I see what you mean.

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//pictures/VEHICLE/2002/Honda/100075514/005144-E.jpg


http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//pictures/VEHICLE/2002/Acura/18974/000265-E.jpg

see how the speedo on the RSX-s has 0 at dead center?
where as the Si has it in diferent place.

I would think that the si speedo and tach work just fine other wise Hasport or anyone who has does the swap would mention it as a major problem. I would suck it you were going 45mph and thought you were going 20mph.

[02blksi]

no matter how you turn the gauges and regardless of what the needle points to.. 0mph is still 0mph 0rpm is still 0rpm empty is still empty etc. Basically the speedos are all calibrated so if the ecu says 20mph the needle points to 20mph. --hth Joe :)

[Skidtron89]

Holy shit you guys are confused and begining to confuse me too.

Damn the ECU doesn't tell teh gauge cluster what to do at least not that I know of unless Honda has changed a lot for the new cars. The speed is sent via the vehicle speed sensor on the tranny to the gauge cluster and the ECU at the same time. The tach sgnal is sent usually from the distributor's igniter unit but in this case from the ECU which doesn't make it matter what gauge clusters there because the circuit for the tach is designed the same on both gauge clusters to read the ignition output signal from the ECU or the igniter depending on the car so that the tach can indicate the correct RPM for te driver to read. There is no direct conflict in anyway between the ECU and gauge cluster there is nothing to change and nothing messes with anything else electrically on the K20A2 swap into the Si. If your wondering how I know it's because I did a large amount of the work on modern-perf's car while directing a rear sway bar install on a 92 VX hatch and a energy bushings insatll on a 90 Integra GS. We were very busy to say the least while doing his swap so it could have been done in less than 10hrs also especially the second time around. And finally the ECU doesn't know, has no way of telling , and could care less what wheel and tire package is on your car. Changing the size of the diameter is no different that changing any gear ratio in the tranny. It is just the last gear in the drivetrain nothing more and nothing less. If you go to big you go slower (acceleration) if you go to small you go faster (acceleration) and with each you gain or lose top speed in each gear because you changed it.

Another thing to note is that his car now shifts into reverse as I have removed a bit of the plastic on the shift mechanizm that was not allowing it to go far enough over to drop down into reverse. So the car is done and everything and I mean everything is able to be changed between the motor from the looks of it. Also for people worrying about the wiring there is none the only thing if you even want to consider it is that the main power wires from the harness to the fuse box under the hood come from teh other side tahn the Si's stock wiring harness. All I did was twist the wire so it would be coming from teh right way and that was the big wiring issue to overcome.

[myeverlovinsir]

Good to know Skidtron89, that the harness comes out the other side of the engine bay. Seems like a simple plug and play. The gearbox is a nice DIY.:)

[IceD out N CALI]

thats cool, plug and play, especially that it is a 10 hour job the second time around. glad there is no big loopholes in this swap:cool:

[modern-perf]

And there you have it folks...right from the source (the other half of it!)

[Skidtron89]

Originally posted by myeverlovinsir
Good to know Skidtron89, that the harness comes out the other side of the engine bay. Seems like a simple plug and play. The gearbox is a nice DIY.:)

Actually it doesn't come from the opposite side it is exactly the same except the connector is on backwards so you have to twist it to the other side so it will screw down. I'm sure modern-perf won't lag like on my pics and he'll get them up soon. (Haha bastard got you for that)

[redronin22]

technically no. and engine doesnt make it a type R. what it does make it is a badd ass ep hehe. congrats man.

[natesi]

What would be cheaper?? Adding a supercharger (installed) to our engine, or replacing our engine with the RSX-type S one (paying someone to do it too)? Note, I don't want the 6-speed tranny, so that might help reduce cost.

The supercharger would give us more troque, but not more power, right? Also, with a supercharger, we would need a heavy-duty clutch, right?

But I suppose if we do the RSX-type S swap we could get cash for our good Si engine, which would help reduce the cost, right??

I dunno.... just thinking....

What do you think? Sounds like a supercharger would actually cost more by the time you have to install a heavy duty clutch... Plus the engine would wear faster, right?

[Skidtron89]

Why wouldn't you want the 6 speed just out of curiousity. I won't nail you for this one but it is better in every respect. I wish I could get a 6 speed for my car so I could have a lower cruising rpm on the freeway.

[IceD out N CALI]

to my understanding the 6th gear on the k20a2 setup is the same as the 5th gear on the k20a3(si engine). so the 6th gear is not any taller or overdrive like, but the whole gearing setup is jus more close ratio to get the most out of the k20a2

[natesi]

Originally posted by Skidtron89
Why wouldn't you want the 6 speed just out of curiousity. I won't nail you for this one but it is better in every respect. I wish I could get a 6 speed for my car so I could have a lower cruising rpm on the freeway.

Too many mis-shifts on the RSX site. It's a huge debate over there. Many people blame it on a poor driver, etc, but sometimes it happens to them. I'm not saying something is wrong with the tranny, but humans make mistake and I'm no exception. If it's easy to do, I'll probably do it eventually. Just not worth the worries for me. I plan on having the car 10 years, and if it's easy to make a mis-shift, It will probably happen to me sooner or later.

Plus, I don't mind a 5 speed. Unless my 2nd-gear grind/crunch gets really bad and the car is out of warranty, I'll just keep this one.

[IceD out N CALI]

guess a couple of questions remain:

1) would the 5 speed si tranny be able to handle the 8k rpms of the k20a2?

2) would the 5 speed help or hurt 1/4 times as opposed to the 6-speed?

[modern-perf]

I would think that:

1) Most Honda trannies are pretty bulletproof so the 5 speed should be just fine with the A2. I think there's a member of this board that actually has an A2 with the 5 speed. We should ask him.

2) Wouldn't the 6 speed make for quicker 1/4 mile e.t.s due to the closer ratios? I have noticed at full throttle and shifting at 8200 or so (which is when the tach needle is pointing to 30 mph on the speedo ;) ) that the car stays in VTEC through all the shifts. If the final drive is indeed the same it wouldn't matter since you're not getting to top gear in 1320 feet.

[Skidtron89]

The 6 speed is better in every case no matter what you use the car for be it autocross, dragracing, bonnevile top speed racing.

Look at it this way the 6 speed will get you to whatever speed you want faster until you have so much power that you can't get traction. But then you get a taller final drive and your awesome again. It is a hard concept for most people to grasp as far as gear ratios and rpm and power are all very inter related. and the 6 speed will out perform the 5 speed in every case. Also another note is that I have driven modern-perf's car a grand total of maybe 4 times ever not cause he's a stingy bastard but because there is no reason for me to drive it and to be frank my car is a hell of a lot bettre than any EP will be for a long time. I'm not talking just power here either. I'm talking road feel, handling, and driver feedback. Also most people that would drive my car would probably hate it anyways as it is not a luxurious ride. Anyways back to my point which is that the shifting of the 6 speed in contrast to the 5 speed is more direct feeling and I didn't miss any shifts and I hit every gear at full throttle on the freeway from a dead stop till 6th. My point being it works fine and doesn't misshift not even for me who nevers drives it and the shifter is in a weird place. There is no flaw with the 6 speed just flaws with people's driving. Although I know in the heat of battle I could see peple misshifting due to adreneline or whatever as I have done it even in my own car when I was a rookie starting out. And the other day while I was in a drift i was trying to gear down to 2nd and steer and handbrake all at the same time amnd it didn't go in and I lost speed trying to get in so yes under extreme circumstances it might be hard to shift into a gear but not any harder than any onether car in the same circumstances.

[IceD out N CALI]

yeah the 6-speed requires more driver skills so they dont "misshift" like some rsx owners have unfortunately done on their type S's.

[natesi]

Originally posted by natesi
What would be cheaper?? Adding a supercharger (installed) to our engine, or replacing our engine with the RSX-type S one (paying someone to do it too)? Note, I don't want the 6-speed tranny, so that might help reduce cost.

The supercharger would give us more troque, but not more power, right? Also, with a supercharger, we would need a heavy-duty clutch, right?

But I suppose if we do the RSX-type S swap we could get cash for our good Si engine, which would help reduce the cost, right??

I dunno.... just thinking....

What do you think? Sounds like a supercharger would actually cost more by the time you have to install a heavy duty clutch... Plus the engine would wear faster, right?

So what do you guys think about the above??

[myeverlovinsir]

do we need a 6th gear? (http://ephatch.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=4625&perpage=15&highlight=gear%20ratios&pagenumber=2)

The type-R compared!

1st to 2nd in the type-R 1.136 (closer ratio)
1st to 2nd in the Si(R) 1.293

2nd to 3rd in the type-R 0.613
2nd to 3rd in the Si(R) 0.557 (closer ratio goes to the EP)

3rd to 4th in the type-R 0.370
3rd to 4th in the Si(R) 0.291 (closer ratio goes to the EP)

4th to 5th in the type-R 0.226
4th to 5th in tht Si(R) 0.183 (closer ratio goes to the EP)

5th to 6th in the type R 0.183 (final ratio for both)

hth.;)

[Skidtron89]

OK gear comparison guy I don't believe you know what your comparing or how to compare them.

First off I'll list the ratios so they can see them when they read this.

6 speed 5 speed

1st 3.266 3.062
2nd 2.130 1.769
3rd 1.517 1.212
4th 1.147 0.921
5th 0.921 0.738
6th 0.738 OOPS!! Can't have it shit pile!
final 4.764 4.764

I would first like to say I got these ratio numbers from the other guys page and didn't bother to look them up since I don't want to so if they are wrong then blame the other guy.

First of all the 6 speed gets to every speed the car can possibly obtain faster than the 5 speed equipped car no matter what engine it has attached to it. Hence the reasoning for the tightly spaced gears. I believe you think that just because some of the spacing is larger on the 6 speed that the 5 speed is just as good well your wrong because if both cars had the exact same engine and suspension setup and the same driver (I know it's theoretically impossible) The 6 speed would kill the 5 speed in a drag race that is if everything else is equal. By the time 4th gear on each car has come about the 6 speed will have been so far ahead of the 5 speed it would be stupid. Since the final drioves are the same this is a perfect example of how trannys compare to each other. Do you serious think Honda is not smarter than you?
First of all say that the 6 speed goes to 35mph in 1st and the 5speed goes to 38. Guess who's already winning the drag race in first gear? remember everything is equal but the tranny so it uses more power and time to overcome the taller 3.062 gear of the five speed. meanwhile the 6 speed is already in 2nd building acceleration while the 5 speed is still pulling to redline in 1st. True at this point the difference is negligable but it will only get worse in each following gear. So now the 6 speed is in 2nd and say it goes to 60 and the 5 speed goes to 67 remembering that the 6 speed uses less power and time to overcome the shorter closer spaced gearing it will be at 60 while the 5 speed is only perhaps at 55 and still isn't done with 2nd ffor another possibly full second of acceleration time. Now the 6 speed is in third and perhaps that gear goes to 90mph the 5 speed is barely done with 2nd while the 6 speed is half or more done with 3rd. As you can see the 6 speed will obtain top speed faster than the 5 speed if it keeps going this way. If you think I'm wrong then you need to learn how gear ratios work. try this site and do a serach: www.howstuffworks.com The guy posted above is comparing the ratios backwards saying the taller is the higher numerical numbered ratio when in fact it is the exact opposite. a taller gear is a lower number numerically. The speeds I chose for the example are not exact and you could do math and figure it out exactly but I just made it up off the top of my head since I have ratios on the mind because I am currently trying to figure out the best possible gear set for my car. I have 4 tranny to chose from so there is a lot of math being done.

[myeverlovinsir]

The proximity of each gear ratio just shows the distances between gears. Wider or larger gear ratio spacing in the type-R is much more rated to what a more powerful, higher reving engine can handle. The 6 speed in the Si would be interesting because they are geared taller allowing more torque over 4 gears vs 3 gears, nothing more. If the type-R did a dyno run in 3rd, I would be a little suspicious of the numbers.;)

[Incognito]

Can you post directions and pictures of what and where to notch the thing on the shifter for reverse with the 6 speed transmission? Thanks in advance.

[modern-perf]

Check the recent issue of Sport Compact Car with the HASport Si on the cover...they went into detail with the photos and I used the article to do my swap.

Hey, I wonder if I can get my car in the magazine?

By the way, someone asked if my car will do 60 in 2nd gear...it will do closer to 70 before bouncing off fuel cut :D

[IceD out N CALI]

By the way, someone asked if my car will do 60 in 2nd gear...it will do closer to 70 before bouncing off fuel cut :D

must be nice:cool:

[SiRman]

With the six speed will you not be spending more time with the
clutch in while shifting ( =coasting) compared to the 5 speed.
Since you have a extra shift to get to top gear and your final
drive ratio, which in this case are the same.

Just another thing to consider, if your trying to formulate which
gearbox is "better".

[Skidtron89]

Originally posted by SiRman
With the six speed will you not be spending more time with the
clutch in while shifting ( =coasting) compared to the 5 speed.
Since you have a extra shift to get to top gear and your final
drive ratio, which in this case are the same.

Just another thing to consider, if your trying to formulate which
gearbox is "better".

You my friend are not very uninformed if you are trying to say that just because you shift one extra time to get to 6th to reach top speed that the 6 speed is not as good as the 5 speed. All I can say is you are stupid after reading your post. Yeah the clutch goes in and out ONE more time big fucking deal. He will be smoking your ass so bad by that time he could take his time by the time he has to shift into 6th. Shit you wouldn't even be withing 4 car lengths of him maybe 6+ by the time he was going to hit 6th and you were just getting half way through 4th.

[SiRman]

Wow I was just trying to bring up a point that hadn't been mentioned yet in this thread. Just trying to participated in a constructive exchange of information on this forum. I find your
post very rude and ignorant.

1/4 mile times are not everything, some racing involves turns,
you have to slow down for these turns( downshifts) and accel.
down the straights(upshifts). Over the course of a race that is more then 15 seconds in length, making extra shifts can add up
to a substantial gap between two otherwise equal cars.

Also I never even said "5speed is good" or "6speed is good"
I was just commenting on another variable of the equation.

I don't mind you commenting or disagreeing with my posts, but try not being so juvenile.

[modern-perf]

We can all be a little juvenile sometimes!