Head swap

[importhonda]

So after reading all the posts, its seems that the best option is to put the k20a2 head on our blocks and swap the ECU's . Seems like a relatively simple job. WE would not have as much power as the type-s But we would be at a lower compression.

Would this be the way to go?

Head $1200
ECU $500

so $1700 and you pretty much have a boost ready k20a2

[jdm_ep3]

Wouldn't that be a problem, because the ecu is made for a 6 gear transmission while ours is only 5 gears

[!@#$%]

ecu has nothing to do with tranny. it would allow higher revs and give us approx 12 different fuel maps, igition maps, timing VTC advances and retards, stuff like that.

[hacim]

The reason I posted those prices for the head and ecu is I have a freind that is the sales manager for the local Acura dealership and he said he can nock 300 to 500 off the price for me. The dealership wants 1500 for the head. Hmmm.. I should make some money. Anyone want to order a head? I will get you all the crap treal cheap. PM me.

[simann]

So, you are saying if you/we switch just the head ( valves , cams , etc) that we would with the ecu have the true V-TEC kick at 6000 rpm's just like the type-s!!!!

P.S
How much realistic horsepower are we talkin' bout?

[importhonda]

I know it would be less than the type S, because we are still using lower compression pistons

[SIborland]

You forget that the Type-S motor uses a 3-rocker system and ours is only a 2....good luck spending an azzload of money trying to fix that problem

[importhonda]

Im not quite sure what the rocker system is, but isn't it all in the head anyways?

[simann]

Simply said.........

THE ROCKERS are what pushes the valves down by the pivot force
of the camshaft(s)!!!!!!!! THIS IS INCLUDED IN THE HEAD UNIT!!!

The head takes care of all the VTEC (not to mention the RSX Type S ECU) Put the head on , it all fits.

Dont worry , be happy!

[simann]

Also...

When switching the head unit on ALL cars, you must replace all the valve cover bolts and gaskets.

Me and my buds are currently fixing his uncles V6 Cavalier Z24(WOOP DE DO!!!!!!!!!!!).

It had a coolant leak into the oil system, we took the head off and found a split head gasket. New gaskets are currently in the mail.

This is in my current suspension and steering class in auto tech (I am a senior in High School) . my teacher found that my group already knew everything about suspension and steering so hes letting us do engine work . ITS SO FUN !!!!!!!!!!!

[importhonda]

So, since the internals are supposed to handle 8k rpm easily and we are adding the type-s head with stiffer valve springs and all, then it would be same to assume we could rev to 8k, correct?

This would be a great option if you cannot afford an entire motor. and if you want to go NA you can add the CTR pistons.

[BlasTech]

This sounds too good to be true, like a K-mini-me.
There's got to be a catch somewhere...
any of you Honda techs care to chime in on this?

[Az02Si]

How do you get around the whole timing belt/chain issue???

[simann]

If I hear you correctly, you are asking, " what about the cam timing ".

If this is your question, the cams adjust theirselves by help of the ECU.

If this is not your question ..Please refraise!

This is a good chat.This is way more inportant than any other post room I've been in

[Az02Si]

What i meant was....If we use a timing chain and the RSx S used a belt,how do you convert everything over to the belt setup???

[David K.]

I understand that our internals are not identical to the K20A2. I don't know that we can hit 8K+rpm regularly w/o problems.

[importhonda]

From what I know, same with the old B series. The head is what is really limiting the higher redline. If the valve springs are not stiff enough, you could float your valves. Its not pretty, My freind did it to my 00 SI. He is no longer my freind :)

[chunky]

Originally posted by Az02Si
What i meant was....If we use a timing chain and the RSx S used a belt,how do you convert everything over to the belt setup???

all k-series motors use chain drives for the cam gears.

when you swap the head, you swap out all the parts (aside from the ECU) that are responsible for vtec. So it is of no consequence that the rsx-s's vtec system is fundamentally different from ours, it ALL gets swapped over.

It is the head that mostly limits the rpm potential of a motor. You will float a valve long before you will stretch/snap a rod in a stock motor. So a head swap would allow you to rev to 8000rpm relatively safely on a stock bottom end.

the car will make less power than the rsx-s b/c of the lower compression, 9.8:1 v.s. 11:1, however, it won't be that far off, maybe 180hp v.s. 200hp.

IMO, this will become one of the most popular mods for the SI. we already have a 2.0l bottom end, so no need to upgrade that, we just need the head.

[Az02Si]

i could have SWORN that a while back on here there were PLENTY of people saying the S used a belt while we used the chain...Missinformation at its finest?????

[S800Racer]

Originally posted by chunky

the car will make less power than the rsx-s b/c of the lower compression, 9.8:1 v.s. 11:1, however, it won't be that far off, maybe 180hp v.s. 200hp.

IMO, this will become one of the most popular mods for the SI. we already have a 2.0l bottom end, so no need to upgrade that, we just need the head.

I really like the idea of swapping heads. I think it will be the best HP/$ for the Si. (NA power). Until it's done & dynoed, we won't know, but 180hp sounds realistic. With addition of I/E and Hondata ECU mod, I think you could see 210-220hp.

Head $1,500 (isn't that what someone said the dealer was charging?)
CAI $200
Midpipe $100
Hondata $500

Total $ 2,300.00 That's a very inexpensive route to 220 HP:D

[SIborland]

Not to mention the mad respect from your car sounding like freighttrain on crack ;) But what about wiring issues? I'm assuming that there might be additional wires due to the 3rd rocker, plus didnt somebody say that RSX's have regular steering and not the electric like us. I'm wondering if there will be any problems with that. But you know I'll be damn sure willing to find out....with a little more money ya know!

[importhonda]

I dont know about the wires, but as for the power steering, we are just replacing the head, so nothing but the head and ecu should be changed. If you were doin a full swap you leave the power steering there and I believe you remove the hydro steering pump off the new engine

[simann]

This is DEFINENTLY A MOD I WILL DO IN THE SOMMER!!!!!!!!.

I am sure that it would probably be straight forward. since everything that has to do with the type-s vtec is in the head (and ECU).
Pretty cheap against turbo or supersharger! And no risk of blowing the motor, THE MUGEN (black one)Si has 240 Horse Power on tap and is all motor. The potential of the K series far outways the old b16 to b18's. I just cant wait what lies ahead for our cars!

"Our K20's will rule the import world (honda/acura)"
I am not comparing to the Skylines or Supras!

I AM SEARCHING MY CHAIRS FOR CHANGE RIGHT NOW!!!

[modern-perf]

Sounds like alot of money for a Frankenstein. I only paid $2800 for my entire swap.

..."everytime an RSX is totalled an EP owner smiles..."

[civic hatch boi]

modern, wut's ur 1/4?

[modern-perf]

Don't know yet...the swap was just done last Tuesday and it's been raining like crazy here. I estimate high 14s....

[importhonda]

how did you get your entire swap for $2800?

[Jpax]

so whos going to swap heads? ehh

[modern-perf]

Bought it right here on epahtch.com in the For Sale section. He wanted $3500 or best offer, I showed up at his door with a pickup and 28 one hundred dollar bills.

[yomamaInMySi]

Originally posted by importhonda
So, since the internals are supposed to handle 8k rpm easily and we are adding the type-s head with stiffer valve springs and all, then it would be same to assume we could rev to 8k, correct?

This would be a great option if you cannot afford an entire motor. and if you want to go NA you can add the CTR pistons.

I don't think so. While the engine make look the same and sound the same (K20 series), they're completely different. The crank, the piston and rods, compresion etc. The head will bolt on, but you'll need to many mods. You'll probably be better off asking your body to give a price on a whole new type s motor.

[yomamaInMySi]

Originally posted by SIborland
Not to mention the mad respect from your car sounding like freighttrain on crack ;) But what about wiring issues? I'm assuming that there might be additional wires due to the 3rd rocker, plus didnt somebody say that RSX's have regular steering and not the electric like us. I'm wondering if there will be any problems with that. But you know I'll be damn sure willing to find out....with a little more money ya know!

PS wouldn't have anything to do with Head swap.

[SIborland]

Always got to consider everything because you never know what you might run into. Oh yeah another problem about just swapping heads is that the RSX-S crank is fully balanced and ours is not...so becareful if you want to rev to 8k.

[myeverlovinsir]

SIborland, good point. think that a crank swap may also be required to get higher rpms in our EP3's. Do you know if the piston arms are equal in length, hope it does not go any further than that! tks

[Skidtron89]

From the sounds of it you should just swap the whole motor instead of the head and ECU and Crank? come on just swap the whole thing and get it over with instead of swapping it peice by peice. I don't think any of what you guys are discussing is going to get you anywhere too fast unless you do something bi8g like a 2.4L with the K20A2 head or something like FI. Swapping the A2 on the A3 block is not going to be even as powerful as the A2 so why bother. You don't gain anything worth your money. It would be better if you used that money to get a turbo or some N2O.

[myeverlovinsir]

I guess what is obvious is that it will cost just about as much to
hunt down and locate each part. Head, ECU and crank, but
you still end up near 5-15 hp behind the type-S benchmark.(due the compression)
A good swap at a low cost is key. Demand is just at a premium
now. so expect to pay top dollar then hope you can find one below what modern-perf paid. But if I can find a head and ECU
from a type-S, I would grab it at cost. This is where I hope to save. I do not want to jack the car up to do a total engine swap personally, so a head, ECU and crankshaft sorta fall in line.
RSX-S parts should be available. Just don't want to pay dealer prices. tks.

[modern-perf]

It all comes back to what I said about 20 posts ago...just do the swap and be done with it. Skidtron89 is the other guy that did my swap with me (remember I said it took 2 guys 10 hours with no lift) and knows firsthand as I do that the A2 swap is the way to go! I can't believe someone would rather tear apart an engine to change out internals, swap heads, etc. when it is so much easier to swap the whole thing.

[myeverlovinsir]

modern, am looking forward to your dyno results. Pls post some
pics!;)

[simann]

Balance shafts have a minimal affect , my brothers SER spec V has two , and guys in my town that have the car took them out and still have no high or low rpm shutter!

Lets get some facts before we start posting about crank shafts or piston rods being different or even stronger.

And guy who did the swap, its NOT stupid to buy parts piece by piece. THAT IS THE FUN OF TUNING A MOTOR , maybe before we buy a $3000+ motor we could build an even stronger motor than a STOCK type s motor for as much if not cheaper!

And SWAP DOOD, Dont try to even tell us whats right or wrong.
WE ARE JUST BRAINSTORMING!!!!!!!!!

WHAT IF IT WILL WORK!!!!!!

[Skidtron89]

Originally posted by myeverlovinsir
modern, am looking forward to your dyno results. Pls post some
pics!;)

If your looking for dyno results find the dyno printout from a RSX with a intake and exhaust cause it will be the same. as for the guy that would rather tear down an engine than swap one and still be able to sell the old to a guy with a civic coupe or sedan in the new body stlte then your just fucking crazy. I bet he'll be able to sell the motor we took out for the same oamount or more than he payed for the new one. Think how nice a K20A3 would be in one of the other body style Civics.

[myeverlovinsir]

Don't know who last in a coupe or sedan asked to by a hatch from
me but that is just rediculous. I had no probs selling any honda
in the past. All with mods. Including, silly altezza/s so there is
always room for improvement. An A3 is a great engine all by itself.
detuned from its real potential. I think type-S is a viable accomplishment when using components, on the stock block.
Just a guy that thinks we have alot more in common. Will take what is given and run, swap is another option. Congrats guys.;)

[importhonda]

The whole idea of swapping the head onto our blocks, wasn't to get the same horse power as the type-s, but I felt it was to put a better flowing head, with a better form of vtec, while having a more boost freindly engine... Lower compression will allow us to boost higher and safer.

one a side note.... i would love to piece together k series block w/ type-s head and 2.4 crank... guess we would have to experiment with what pistons would work best.

[Skidtron89]

Now your talking cause if you do it in the name of turbo then it's all good. If your doing it to NA then look somewhere else cause that's not going to be a good way to practice good desicion making.

[simann]

I am going to find out exactly the differences are between the K20A2 and A3.

I am wondering if the Hydraulic pump thet actuates are i-vtec (other intake valve) can actuate the type s camshaft(s).

It still is a great idea whether SOME people like it or not.

I'm going to dig to Japan/Europe to find the engine layout and configuration charts if I have to.(please no stupid combacks on this line)

Just consider me as the first head swap canidate!!!!!!!!
I'll make it work.

Also tell me where you all get your info on crankshafts and balancer shafts?

[simann]

Hey ImportHonda,

I'm with your idea , the compression is low enough for turbo.
Keep posting ideas (not slams),so we can figure this thing out!

[o2seriouSi]

i agree w/ importhonda i bet u when the notion of LsV-tec came up every one was slamming the person who came up w/ this
idea. Ibet u they were having the same aguement we are goin through now, they were probably say"just drop in a GSR or SI motor don't waist ur time w/ this crazy ideas" Now those are the people that are getting spanked up and down by this beast of a motor. soon we would have this beast in the form of a " K-series motor"


P.s. becarefull for that B20 block w/ the type-R head it's a killer
:D

[S800Racer]

Originally posted by simann
I am going to find out exactly the differences are between the K20A2 and A3.
I am wondering if the Hydraulic pump thet actuates are i-vtec (other intake valve) can actuate the type s camshaft(s).

It still is a great idea whether SOME people like it or not.

Just consider me as the first head swap canidate!!!!!!!!
I'll make it work.


What everyone seems to forget is that the idea behind the head swap is to make lots of HP for less $. There is no question that in NA trim, the A2 is going to make more HP than the A3. But can we make almost as much for a fraction of the cost?
I totally agree with Modern-perf --- as long as you have the bucks to do it. If the head swap works for 1/2 the price, it's worth considering.

I will be VERY interested to see how well an A2 head works on the A3. And for the turboheads out there, the lower compression is a bonus.

[SIborland]

In terms of information about the engine, I have a helms manual. I havent gotten really into it yet as I am preoccupied with starting my own business, but I will look at it when I get a chance to add some input. I also think that the pistons are lighter in the A2 than in ours but I'm not sure on that one. Does anybody know if the 2.4L is single sided vtec like ours or double like the A2? You never know, we might just be able to swap the 2.4 with a turbo ;) Plus the new element is coming out with a manual tranny mated to the 2.4 if we cant use ours. Just a little something to think about.

[modern-perf]

The RSX-S and the DC5-R are the only K engines that have VTEC on both cams. The base RSX, the EP, the CR-V, the Accord and the Element get the A3 with the single VTEC.

[Skidtron89]

Originally posted by o2seriouSi
i agree w/ importhonda i bet u when the notion of LsV-tec came up every one was slamming the person who came up w/ this
idea. Ibet u they were having the same aguement we are goin through now, they were probably say"just drop in a GSR or SI motor don't waist ur time w/ this crazy ideas" Now those are the people that are getting spanked up and down by this beast of a motor. soon we would have this beast in the form of a " K-series motor"


P.s. becarefull for that B20 block w/ the type-R head it's a killer
:D

Actually LSVTEC's are highly prone to head gasket failure and aren't very reliable nor are any of the hybrid engines unless prper time has been taken to do the correct machining to keep the engine happy. In most cases they are slapped together by hacks and the last about 3 months and they are toast. Not to mention I raced a guy with a B20VTEC in a 90 Si. So same car as me but different approach. He beat me by about a foot at the top of 4th gear. Then we went to 5th and I was going to catch and pass him cause he was out of gear in 5th already and I wa barely half way done with 5th so he paid a lot for nothing and guess what the other day I heard his blew up. He had it for about 2 months that I know of. Doesn't sound to badass to me. Not to mention all I had to do to beat him was push 1-2 more psi and he wouldn't have even been close.

[simann]

I think the biggest problem is actuating the exhaust cam vtec in the type s head! Could we pirate our hydraulic lines to also push the exhaust cams in some way or what guys?

[TEKBRAIN]

Oil squirts?

[simann]

Thats in the bottom end, the RSX Type S has additional oil passages to the crank etc...not that big of a deal though,at least not that I know of?:cool:

[Skidtron89]

Your on teh wrong track man your 12/16 valve head will never make good power like teh type S head. Either swap te head or teh whole engine and start with something good right off the bat.

[gpt]

Originally posted by Skidtron89
Your on teh wrong track man your 12/16 valve head will never make good power like teh type S head. Either swap te head or teh whole engine and start with something good right off the bat.

I assume your basing this on dyno numbers that you have seen. :rolleyes:

Spoon is apparently working on exactly that - how to switch the moving parts from a Type R DC5

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=408331

[Skidtron89]

That post is full of shit I doubt teh oil passages in teh head are in place to feed the ehaust side if it was never intended to be a real VTEC head. Not to mention te parts probably won't bolt up right or be slightly wrong or all teh many possibilities. The part numbers are different for teh heads too as someone mentioned and so tehy are different enough to not be crossed. Like someone else said the B16 and B18 heads have different part numbers and there are lots of reasons why because they have many small differences and the other guy is of teh idea when he says teh cams can be swapped because thats not saying much shit you could probably fit two SOHC motor cams in a DOHC motor but it dosen't mean your getting anywhere. Just because certain parts might fit doesn't mean they will work. You could just buy teh A2 motor or some FI and get it over with. You don't see anyone with aCivic VX or HX with teh VTEC-E 12/16 valve motor trying to get power ot of it do you? that's because it isn't even VTEC it's just actuating the loose valve and riding a slightly better cam profile. The motor is no better than a 16 valve non VTEC 2.0 DOHC except that it has adjustable cam timing (which is great in itself don't get me wrong) The motor doesn't even make 100hp per liter stock. Thats weak sauce bro.........

[CivicGSiR]

i just read the complete thread @ honda-tech, that gpt posted & AJ-Racing completed the Type S head swap. they said the following:

"We just finished the swap for K20A2 head to a K20A3 engine. The engine is pretty strong even with the restrictive stock exhaust
Here are the list of parts that were used for this swap.

-type-S cylinder head and valvetrain
-ITR cams
-Spoon K20A head gasket
-cam gears
-ITR ECU (dunno if Hondata can flash the K20A3 ECU to work for K20A2 engine)

Stock EP-3 head bolts and timing chain were used which not need to change. I am still doing some research, trying to figure out putting type-S rockers and cam holders to the K20A3 head and try to use the camgear as well (which they looked the same).Since the price for the full swap is kind of expensive so once I find out more information , I will make report to you guys immediately "

so it looks as if the head swap is possible, although the questions they were raising was "if you can swap the heads internals rather than the whole head" (cams, cam gears, rocker arms, springs, etc...) the whole complete Type S head pricing out at $3,800.

[gpt]

my point is that:
1. The head swap does seem possible as AJ Racing amongst others have done it
2. It does not seem impossible to fit DCR Type R parts to an A3 head and until someone tries this and finds out that it is impossible it is still a possibility, I remember a post from a while back where myeverlovinsir mentioned someone in montreal was testing the A2 cams in the A3 head - the only reasonable way to do this would be to swap out the rockers etc. too.
3. Probably the best combination will be an A2 head on a A3 block with some sort of FI - that would be a monster. (A3 block because of the lower compression therefore higher boost potential)

I think there is a lot still to be dicovered and over the next year or 2 the potential of the K series motors will be awesome. Personally I think swapping anything out now is risky because there may be better options in 6 months - wait until people like AJ, Spoon etc finish their testing then make a decision.

Although I agree if you have to swap the whole head you might as well get a full A2....

[Skidtron89]

I see what your saying but whether you keep teh A3 or go A2 get boost cause it's so easy it's scary and teh motor doesn't have to be ragged edge tuned like a all motor no idling son of a bitch.

[2002Si]

shouldn't he know anything about this? Isn't he supposed to be some kind of tech?

[BlazeX12]

Originally posted by Skidtron89
That post is full of shit I doubt teh oil passages in teh head are in place to feed the ehaust side if it was never intended to be a real VTEC head. Not to mention te parts probably won't bolt up right or be slightly wrong or all teh many possibilities. The part numbers are different for teh heads too as someone mentioned and so tehy are different enough to not be crossed. Like someone else said the B16 and B18 heads have different part numbers and there are lots of reasons why because they have many small differences and the other guy is of teh idea when he says teh cams can be swapped because thats not saying much shit you could probably fit two SOHC motor cams in a DOHC motor but it dosen't mean your getting anywhere. Just because certain parts might fit doesn't mean they will work. You could just buy teh A2 motor or some FI and get it over with. You don't see anyone with aCivic VX or HX with teh VTEC-E 12/16 valve motor trying to get power ot of it do you? that's because it isn't even VTEC it's just actuating the loose valve and riding a slightly better cam profile. The motor is no better than a 16 valve non VTEC 2.0 DOHC except that it has adjustable cam timing (which is great in itself don't get me wrong) The motor doesn't even make 100hp per liter stock. Thats weak sauce bro.........

Damn, i dont think you spelled 'THE' right in this whole post. That takes talent.... J/K man, i just thought it was funny....

[Skidtron89]

I always do that for some reason when typing fast. ANd here's an extra one for you


teh

[modern-perf]

He just does it because he doesn't know what teh fuck he's talking about :D

[Skidtron89]

hehehehehhe

[CivicGSiR]

anybody heard anything new on swapping the heads internals?

[simann]

My friend named Lee has the type S head, also he has a type S 6 speed, with a WAY shorter 3rd gear! It KILLS my Si in 3rd. He beat a WRX 02' model off the line till third and also a GST eclipse too! He is gonna do the head swap this month I will keep you all posted

[simann]

I AM NOT JOKING

He is not on this forum for some reason, I am gonna try to get him on here. His Si also has the Hondata heatshield and Injen SRI, Eibach pro kit and Rota wheels.

He kept the stock Si tranny bell housing( which he found to be the SAME as the type S bell housing). The total for his tranny Mod was around $530 for parts and labor was free since he did it himself!

He said some people on Honda-Tech.com found a website where they had alredy did the headswap and it worked like the LS integra B18 Vtec headswap. I can see some people thinking i am making this up but I AM FOR REAL.

Lee, Me and my friend Travis ALL have Silver 03' Si's so were thinkin of making a team or something. I will keep you all posted!!!:cool:

[HgSi]

Wow, I'm really interested in that tranny swap. Although I can't afford an A2, I would love to have 6 gears so I don't have to turn 4000 rpm while simply cruising down the highway, and possibly save some gas while I'm at it. Exactly what is entailed in such a swap, what tools are needed, and how difficult is it?

[HgSi]

Hehe... then maybe later on, when I come across some cash, I can get a K24A1 from a CRV and turbo it, and I woudl keep my 6 speed gearbox! That would be sweet!

[simann]

I am currently trying to contact my friend, he seems to be workin alot. But anyway, the tranny swaap is "fairly" simple...Front wheel drive trannys are kind of tricky so you might need some help if its your first time out foolin around with one.

Also, did I mention he kept the Si's tranny housing? The type S tranny inerds fit right in( all he did was strip all the Si's tranny parts out for the type S tranny parts).

;)

[Cone Killer]

Originally posted by HgSi
Wow, I'm really interested in that tranny swap. Although I can't afford an A2, I would love to have 6 gears so I don't have to turn 4000 rpm while simply cruising down the highway, and possibly save some gas while I'm at it. Exactly what is entailed in such a swap, what tools are needed, and how difficult is it?

as long as you kept the Type-S final drive gear you could solve the freeway rpm problem. But since the 5 th and 6th gears are the same it would be worse with our final drive, but you would have better acceleration.

[K20NutBucket]

simanns friend lee does have a very quick si, although i thought he had type-s pistons too. hey simann do you know if he is running a type-s ecu on that engine?

[simann]

uhh, k20nutbucket, have YOU ridden in it lately? His third gear is soo short he hangs with anybody with at the most 30-40 more HP... He hung with my friends GST. He does have the type-s pistons and a heatshield and other little mods but no ECU yet.

It still wont hang with my brothers type-s!!!!!;)