Wont start help!!

[big kitty]

ok so heres the deal, my ep has been sitting for the past week as i replaced the rod bearings (hopefully unrelated) i finally got everything put back together and went to start it, fired right up, rod knock is gone thank god, but i ran into a new problem, first off i dont think this is related but some electronics didnt work anymore..radio, some lights ect. but she ran fine, i went on a test drive for about 20 minutes and everything seemed fine..until...at about 55mph the car died, just stalled, i looked down and the tach said 0, though the clutch was still engauged so i pushed the clutch in and tried to turn it over while i was still coasting, it tried but didnt start, i then put it in 2nd and popped the clutch hopeing it would jump it, you could hear the engine wind up as usual but the tach still said 0 and it didnt start, so i pushed it home and tried to start it again, it sounds almost like there is no compression, im getting spark on all cylinders, good fuel pressure, intake is fine, and the pistons and rods are still in there lol, so my problem is it turns over but doesnt start, need advice quick. thanks guys and gals, oh and there is a cel but i cant get it to a scanner and i dont have one

[big kitty]

oh and i should mention that i did NOT remove the engine, when i changed the bearings it was from under the car, i removed the sway bars, struts, sub-frame, and the oil pan and oil pump, thats it, no connectors or wires or anything else, though my buddy helping me broke my ABS wire connecting to my passenger front brake but i cant see how that would matter, on the cluster i have every light on, cel, maint, EPS, ABS, oil pressure, and batt, but while it was running there were no lights until it jumped into limp mode seconds before it stalled

[Deadphishy]

Sounds like an ECU problem. Check your crank posistion sensor.

[big kitty]

so there are a few more porblems, i went ang got a scan tool for the cel, no codes, the light now is on when the key is on but then flashes 5 times and goes off, i also checked the compression and its at 0 all across the board, the pistons are moving like they should but i get zero compression and yes the gauge works fine, i tested it on another car, and the radio mysteriously works again, could this be a timing issue? i didnt mess with the chain at all, or maybe a valve stuck? any suggestions are appreciated, i checked the fuel and its getting pressure along with the spark which is fine, air flow is fine too, could the ecu or any of the sensors make it fail to start? or just stop the engine while its already running? seems like that would be a huge safety thing, please help and if you have a suggestion please let me know how to check it, thanks guys

[talonXracer]

If there is zero compression then there most assuredly is a timing issue.

[big kitty]

i can see that being a timing issue but how the hell would it jump out of time while driving down the street, you would like i would hear that, does the flashing cel mean anything to you guys

[big kitty]

so i investigate the timing issue and found that to be it, the intake cam was 90 degrees ahead of the exhaust and yes im sure, i know its crazy. what can cause that, im thinking tensioner but how can i test the tensioner? and i went to change the timing and dropped the chain off the crank sproket, whats the easiest way to get it all lined up again, do i really have to take the timing cover off cause thats a bitch, can i just go from top dead center and call it good?

[Deadphishy]

you need to check the head for bent valves.

[big kitty]

i plan on doing a leak down test in the morning to check the valves, but i need to reset the timing first, its it ok to set the crank to tdc and proceed as usual? i just wasnt sure if thats a fool proof way of lining up the timing on the crank, cams arnt an issue but i really dont want to screw up the timing on the crank side, ive been there and it took me forever to get it good again. also i pulled out my tensioner just to make sure it wasnt broken or anything, the tensioner moves in and out with quite a bit of force so im assuming its still good, the teeth on the tensioner are fine and not damaged in any way, but i felt the guide that the tensioner pushes on and it felt extremely loose, is that normal for it to be loose when the tensioner isnt in?

[big kitty]

bump for one last question, so my problem was timing thanks talon, so i got my timing issue fixed (in the process of putting it back together) but i noticied something strange, before (on several occasions) when i took my valve cover off i would notice my timing chain wasnt very tight, it would travel between 1/4 to 1/2 an inch in either direction when you push or pull on it between the cam gears, is that normal? cause when i put this back together just now i noticed its so tight i can move it, but it is 9 links apart from mark to mark so there is the proper spacing for the chain, its just ALOT tighter than before, is this normal? should it be really tight with no play or should there be any slack? thanks guys a fast response would be sweet as im typing this out as im working on the car, thanks

[talonXracer]

There is a VERY easy check to determine if the chain is on the crank pulley properly.

First off the chain must be fairly new, ie not stretched(the reason why most tensioners fail and the timing jumps)

There should be no slack.

The chain can go onto the crank sprocket in one of two positions, on the link or on the halflink, you then hold the chain taught and see if the timing cover bisects a chain link or halflink, observe the red arrow in this picture. (the engine will run with the chain on the halflink, sorta)
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g96/talonxracer/camchaintiming-1.jpg

[big kitty]

Thank you for the diagram, I ran the car last night and it fired right up but once it was warm it stalled out, it wont idle at normal temperature so turns out im on a half link on the crank and not on the cams, now I did discover another issue, I replaced the rod bearings a week ago and then my timing went off, while I was driing it there is a horrifying knock at 3.5-5k rpm, its not a rod bearing cause they were all just replaced and it only happens at a steady speed, while acceleratig or decelerating the sound it gone, I've seen people ask about it before but I never found a defenit answer, this has been goof on before and after my bearing went out so I thought it was the bearing but now that there new the sound is still there, its coming from the chain area, wtf is it? Could it be a guide?

[big kitty]

I should clarify on the sound, its not a knock its more of a grinding popping slapping rattling sound, and its not in time with the engine its a sparatic sound at those rpms, it happens every time im at those rpms but not in time with the engine if that makes sense

[Deadphishy]

Chain slap, could be the reason the motor popped out of timing.

[talonXracer]

That sure does sound like the tensioner, When you changed the bearings did you do it with the engine in the car from below?

[big kitty]

Yes I changed he bearings with the engine in the car, I took off the sub frame, lower control arms, sway bars, and oil pan including the oil pump, chain slap would make sense cause that's exactly what it sounded like but the chain is so damn tight I can't move it at all, the tensioner was my first guess but I took it out and inspected it, the teeth on it are good and it took my body weight to close ituntil all the oil was out of it then the spring tension seemed pretty strong

[big kitty]

The sound started about 2 months ago andi just put up with it but ta getting really bad, I had a chain driven toyota celica that made the same noise, in the celica and my ep it seemed to start the noise rather quickly and for no apparent reason, the celica survived it so I figured it wasn't something that needed to be addressed urgently but now im already in there and I want to fix it

[big kitty]

So not only is the chain really tight and its a half link off on the crank but the tensioner is still fully compressed even after running the car for 20 minutes, bump for some help

[VIZHUNZ02SI]

tensioner fails = loose chain = k-series death. happen to me once

[big kitty]

Lovely well im gunna pull the engine then so I can get in and check everything out

[big kitty]

Ok so here's the summary/update, I pulled the engine trying to find the source of my rattling sound, I checked the rod bearings again (I replaced them last week) just to be sure, nothing wrong there, I then pulled the timing cover (fyi to anyone pulling there cover, GET THE CRANK PULLY OFF FIRST!!!!, took 900lbs of force to get off, so take it off while in the car) I checked the chain, I was off time by half a tooth, fixed that and inspected the guides, nothing strange, I replaced the tensioned just to be safe, I checked all the washers and bushings and mounts that hold the engine in, nothing wrong, wtf is rattling so damn loud? If its not rod bearings or the chain then what could cause a noise like that, I also pulled a bunch of metal shavings out of all the screens in the engine ie vtec soilenoid

[talonXracer]

Could be VTC related, was there any debris on the VTC oil control valve screens or on the VTC filter screen on the front of the head?

I heard an engine with a damaged VTC assembly(cam gear) sound like that.

Also go and order the upper chain guide fro a 07'+ K20Z3, it is elongated and will pretty much prevent the cams from jumping out of time. There is also a company that has also popped out a few of the lower chain guards, they are over on K20a.org.

comparison between 07'+ K20Z3 upper chain guide and stock EP3
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g96/talonxracer/IMG_0533.jpg

crank chain guard
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g96/talonxracer/IMG_0532.jpg

[big kitty]

There was metal in almost every screen including the one near the cams on the side by the motor mount, not sure what that is, also in the screen on the head on the back side by the exahust

[04SiSpeed]

Thanks to your thread and apparent similar issue, i have direction in my process of fixing, which doesnt sound fun....Good thread

[big kitty]

Anyway for me to check and see if its the vtc.gear? I don't want to give honda $185 for a new one if I can check mine out

[big kitty]

04si, you have the same sound? Let me know of you find it and vise versa, Mine is definatly coming from the chain side, the vtc sprocket would make alot of sense I just don't want to replace it, that part would explain why it doesn't rattle or knock while accelerating or decelerating as it would be adjusting the timing but not while at steady speed, its just irritating, been 3 weeks since I've been able to drive the ep, been stuck driving a 87 accord lol any help would be much appreciated, heard it could be a bearing in the tranny...?

[talonXracer]

You have a major issue if there was alot of metal in the filter screens. What condition is the oil pump?

[big kitty]

Well I had the pump out when I did the rod bearings, didn't pay too much attention to it but didn't see anything out of the ordinary besides metal shavings in the oil pan, quite a bit of them, but I chalked it up to the rod bearing nearly desinigrating in there, I've never had any oil pressure issues

[big kitty]

Before all this happened I hathe same damn rattling knocking sound, then I started to hear another sound (rod knock) and the I replaced the bearings and the rod knock was gone but the same rattle is there and getting louder

[big kitty]

So I got the engine back in and running last night, weird thing is the sound is half as loud as it was, its not very bad at all though the cel came on along with the oil light but that's unrelated, the only thing I can think of that I actually did or changed was unblocking the little screens and clearing out the metal shavings, im thinking that there was so much it was blocking oil flow to certain parts, the only screens I cleared were the ones I mentioned a few posts ago, is there more screens? Maybe hidden behind some bolts or anything? My celica had several hiden behind bolts, anyone know?

[talonXracer]

You still had metal debris in the oil gallies when you replaced the bearings, there is probably more damage. There is two screens, one on the front for the VTC and the other at the spool valve(VTEC valve).

I take it you only replaced rod bearings and didnt check the mains?

[big kitty]

I did not check the main bearings, when the bearing went out it spun and overlapped the top half on cylinder# 2 there wasn't any damage to the rod or the crank so I just replaced the one bearing, I only drove it about a mile with the knock but it was enough to smash one half of the bearing paper thin, I measured the rod and crank to make sure they wernt damaged and everything was fine, this rattle sound is most definitely a upper sound though

[big kitty]

Can you describe where the screen is on the front of th head?

[big kitty]

ok guys i got a video of the knock, its back just as loud as its been before, at this point im done starting it until i figure this out, i know this is the wrong place but if you read this and are selling a longblock a3 let me know, i tried to rev it so you can hear the noise and its apparent when it knocks, i tried to move the phone so the mic would pick it up so ignore my shotty camera work

http://s535.photobucket.com/albums/ee357/josiahafelix/?action=view&current=2010-10-26_21-18-28_860.mp4

[VIZHUNZ02SI]

wow. i wouldnt try to guess the problem. take it to a trained honda tech. that can be anything in the head

[big kitty]

So I've been told its a bent rod, honda tech told me that, so im just starting a build and im selling my motor (longblock) for 300 bucks to get started