supercharger questions

[redronin22]

1:why do people say a supercharger is more reliable then a turbo.
2: would you have to upgrade less things to get it to run right: (i've heard you have to get a turbo header turbo exhaust etc if you go that route. but would you have to do the same for a supercharger?)
3: what would be better for a daily driver? i travel alot from LA-OC-SD so i will be on the road at least an hour at a time at speeds over 75 mph i dont want anything breaking down in the middle of nowhere. would i encounter any heat problems?
4: i know a turbo can be get more power by turning up the boost, is there something as simple for a supercharger?
5: what would work better with nitrous? or should that be left alone for either?
6: what weighs more a turbo kit or a super charger kit?
7: what are your thoughs on jackson racing kits?


Im asking alot of questions because i'd like some more power but i dont want to sacrifice reliability. Id be happy with a high 13 low 14 sec car on the streets.

[pocketrocket]

1. Generally, superchargers run lest boost, and at slower RPM's. But as to being more reliable, I don't think that's founded.
2. With either option, you shouldn't have to upgrade anything if you're only running small amounts of boost. (except for the parts involved with the FI Kit)
3. I'd say that a turbo would be a better daily driver, as you don't boost until higher rpm, resulting in better drivability (IMO). But neither would be bad running low boost.
4. Getting more boost from a supercharger requires changing a pulley.
5. For nitrous, turbo is the way to go. You can spray till XXXXrpm, then after the turbo spools, cut the N20, and just ride the boost. But not a good idea for a daily driver.
6. In general, a S/C would weigh more than a turbo, but both produce enough power to negate any weight penalty.
7. JR - don't really have any experience with them, but their kits seem pricey.

I think if you turbo your K, run like 6pounds, and don't spray, you should have a pretty damn reliable car running the numbers you want for a decent price.

Good Luck
-PR

[Whooopasss]

1:Usualy, people who go turbo, up the boost in time.. there by blowing there engine.. Supercharger people, stay with the stock boost more often since boosting any higher than the normal boost setting requires som wrench action, unlike turbo, it is easier to up the boost. Also, teh JE kit also hast to fight off heat soak.
.
2: For any FI aplication, a stand along would be nice, but not required. Like the greddy kit, they comw with the piggy back that would be sufficient for the factory set boost. Boost any higher then the box wont cut it.

3: What he said.. with JR you have about 2 PSi on idle.

4: Again, uping the boost on a supercharger rewires some wrench action (change the pully)

5: Turbo or SC is fine but then again, you can get more HP with the Turbo.

6: With the turbo, pipes, turbo manifold, intercooler.. I say turbo

7: I think they kick ass, as long as it was installed right and tuned right.. with the basic JR kist, you will need some additional stuff.. I just dont like the JR kit since it does not give you new injectors (bigger) a piggy back sustem to help with fuel.. they just give you the charger plus an FMU and they send you on your way.. (litteraly)

[Dunrick]

Originally posted by Whooopasss
7: I think they kick ass, as long as it was installed right and tuned right.. with the basic JR kist, you will need some additional stuff.. I just dont like the JR kit since it does not give you new injectors (bigger) a piggy back sustem to help with fuel.. they just give you the charger plus an FMU and they send you on your way.. (litteraly)

Why would that be bad that JR gives you that stuff? Wondering, cause I dont know jack about cars yet. Peace

[Nosjunke]

SUPERCHARGERS have higher torque figures at a lower RPM, and that'll get you rolling on the street, or highway if you're in 5th gear. You may not have to downshift to pass for example.

TURBOS take time to build power, but at highway speeds have almost no lag and if you drop it from 5th to 4th gear and hammer the throttle, it's going to fly.

If you have two exact EP's, one on turbo, one on supercharger, at a stop light, with boost being the same(and driver,gas, etc.), the supercharger will take it off the line every time. UNLESS you have an automatic and a high lockup torque converter(which we don't). The turbo car will probably catch up because the the turbo will built boost probably almost to redline, the supercharger's power will drop off earlier.

And again, HP and TQ figures may look like this, only in comparison.
TURBO 175WHP@6800rpm 138LB-FT@3200rpm
SUPERCHARGER 170WHP@5800rpm 155LB-FT@2900rpm

At, let's say, 2500rpm the turbo car will have maybe 3psi on its way to 6psi max, and the supercharger car will be at 6psi already. It's hard to tell because no one has these on our cars yet.

The only example I know of, is with my old mustangs. I ran an 11psi supercharger, and their is it's graph. See how the torque number are way up by 2500rpm? The torgue number is the higher one on the graph, and the smaller is hp, but you can see how that one builds like it's supposed too. If I took the supercharger off and ran an 11psi turbo, my torque number would look like the hp one, but I would have maybe 30 more hp at 5800rpm. It's complicated to explain, but I would reccommend either driving or letting someone drive you in their turbo or supercharged car.

[CRV440]

Read this-

Turbo vs. Supercharger (http://hondalife.com/articles/turbovssupercharger.htm)

It should answer most of your questions.

[Skidtron89]

Superchargers suck!

No pun intended get a turbo it is much more expandable and it sounds better. Plus you can intercool it and you can't on most positive displacement type blowers. Mine has been highly reliable I have yet to even get a oil leak from any of it's fittings. Although I do have oil leaks I need to fix on the tranny....hehe! I have full spool before 3000rpm what's turbo lag??? Also I have a lot of torque. I'll put it this way I can barely use 1/4 throttle driving from a stoplight in the rain without spinning the tires. And I'm not talking about popping any clutches. I can't even us 1/2 throttle while rolling in second gear in the rain without massive tires spin and I was able to burn out starting rolling from 20mph all the way to fith gear never achieving traction till I let off in the rain. Is that enough torque for you? It's enough for me for now anyways till I intercool it then I get some free ponies from that too. Turbo is the way to go all the way in every application. The turbo doesn't have to make up the power it robs from the engine in the first place like a supercharger.

[chunky]

Originally posted by Skidtron89
Superchargers suck!

No pun intended get a turbo it is much more expandable and it sounds better. Plus you can intercool it and you can't on most positive displacement type blowers. Mine has been highly reliable I have yet to even get a oil leak from any of it's fittings. Although I do have oil leaks I need to fix on the tranny....hehe! I have full spool before 3000rpm what's turbo lag??? Also I have a lot of torque. I'll put it this way I can barely use 1/4 throttle driving from a stoplight in the rain without spinning the tires. And I'm not talking about popping any clutches. I can't even us 1/2 throttle while rolling in second gear in the rain without massive tires spin and I was able to burn out starting rolling from 20mph all the way to fith gear never achieving traction till I let off in the rain. Is that enough torque for you? It's enough for me for now anyways till I intercool it then I get some free ponies from that too. Turbo is the way to go all the way in every application. The turbo doesn't have to make up the power it robs from the engine in the first place like a supercharger.

IMO, supercharged motors sound better, the intake & exhaust are muffled on a turbo motor. on a supercharged motor, the intake is muffled, but the exhaust is not.

a roots or lysholm type blower will have more midrange torque than a turbo. those two blower types offer more steady boost levels as boost is almost always at peak no matter where in the rpm range you are. with a turbo, you have to wait for peak boost.

If you want ultimate power, go turbo. if you want a good autocross car, or a car with good throttle response, to supercharger.

[Skidtron89]

So you like your car to be loud and attract undo attention like the police huh? I guess you haven't been pulled over too many times for excessive exhaust noise or you would have changed that tone real quick. And why does everyone say you have to wait for boost with turbo. I wait for about a blink of an eye and I'm dead serious about that. I don't wait I throw it in a gear and bam 5.5psi for that ass! The only time you wait is if your doing 55mph in 5th gear and you just punch it instead of downshifting and then punching it. I hope you aren't basing your idea of how a turbo engine should run off of a DRAG kit or something cause they are very poor and have a lot of lag. If the turbo is properly sized and the engine tuned correctly then there is almost no lag or spool up time. The only time when you get a lot of lag is when the turbo is too big for the engine like when you need 500hp so you use a huge turbo to make the neccesary boost. There is no lag worth mentioning if the turbo compliments the engine size correctly. And to touch on the steady boost thing.....What do you mean steady boost like staying at a certain boost level? Cause after the turbo is spooled it just stays at the exact same boost level till redline so I'm not sure I follow you on that one. I could be taking that out of context though.

[pocketrocket]

Skidtron. Boost through a turbo builds, faster exhaust gas, more intake pressure. There are a few nasty little gremlins that come with a turbo over a s/c, but they are definately managable, and worth it IMO, ie: boost creep and spike that you don't get with a s/c.

just MO
-PR

[Skidtron89]

Originally posted by pocketrocket
Skidtron. Boost through a turbo builds, faster exhaust gas, more intake pressure. There are a few nasty little gremlins that come with a turbo over a s/c, but they are definately managable, and worth it IMO, ie: boost creep and spike that you don't get with a s/c.

just MO
-PR

True but not always the case. Once again I will point out a properly tuned and put together turbo engine will not display these problems. Mine doesn't for example. Those are problems associated with internal wastegates on turbos with lots of boost like up in the 20's and higher. Also common on stock eclipses. Before anyone points out I have a Mitsubishi turbocharger on my car all I have to say is it's a lot better of a turbo than what comes on Eclipses in everyway.

[Whooopasss]

Originally posted by pocketrocket
Skidtron. Boost through a turbo builds, faster exhaust gas, more intake pressure. There are a few nasty little gremlins that come with a turbo over a s/c, but they are definately managable, and worth it IMO, ie: boost creep and spike that you don't get with a s/c.

just MO
-PR

With SC, you also have tip in detonation, sliping belt, heat soak, no intercooler, and a lot less to play with.. but either way, it is more of, looking for FI that your tunner is verygood with working with.. if your a firstime FI person, the SC is the way to go.

[hacim]

I read an article in an older SCC when they SC a Miata with a JR M62 blower and then they put an intercooler on the SC. It gave the Miata an additional 16 hp. I dont know where you all get they idea that you cant put an intercooler on a SC. Call JR for proof and you will see it can be done.

[swampdonkey]

Turbos can be good for autocrossing too as long as you're using a well engineered system. For example: there is a TE04-50 turbo that has a ceramic ball bearing center section. This turbo can make 10lbs below 2000rpm. Thats on a two liter engine. So THAT turbo could make more power down low than a supercharger, considering a jacksonracing system doesn't run 10psi out of the box at peak boost.

I'm not anti-supercharger, but you don't get nearly as much flexiblity when you're limited to a pulley. I would rather have a "small" turbo that I can run 6 pounds on for quick spooling fun or run 10lbs on when I'm at the track than have a supercharger that will only run one boost level.

Yes you can intercool a Supercharged motor and you shoudl do so. Anytime you compress air its going to create energy in the form of heat. And I think a turbo motor sounds better than a SC motor. You get wonderful sounds from the BOV or CBPV whichever you happen to have plus the whistle of the turbo. I think it smooths out the usuall fart-tube sound that must souped up imports make.

Swampy

[Whooopasss]

hacim... LOL!!! we are talking about a honda not mazda.. this is a honda board you know.. why don't you call JR and ask if you can get a intercooler for a JR supercharged honda.. The supercharger on the miata sits opposite the intake manifold (pipe running across to the intake manifold where you can tap an intercooler in between),

http://www.iq.dynip.com/~gary/miata/28.jpg



honda, on the other hand, replaces the intake manifold, so no pipes to tap an intercooler to.

http://www.boomplustoys.net/semashow/images/semashow039.jpg




it was done once (not by JR) and it was not pretty

http://www.dslextreme.com/users/turbo_si//images/jrscic1.jpg http://www.dslextreme.com/users/turbo_si//images/jrscic2.jpg http://www.dslextreme.com/users/turbo_si//images/jrscic3.jpg http://www.dslextreme.com/users/turbo_si//images/jrscic4.jpg http://www.dslextreme.com/users/turbo_si//images/jrscic5.jpg







the water cooler looked better.. but I just dont like the fact that all that pip is after the trottle body

http://www.dslextreme.com/users/turbo_si//jrscintercooler/Topview.jpg

[ssvr6]

If do some creative "rearranging".. you could fit a water cooler where the battery is. (Run the battery in the rear).

If you have a CAI, the filter wouldn't even be in the bay to get in the way.

http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/s/ssvr6/WCPic.jpg


Steve

[Whooopasss]

No.. no.. no.. you have to cool the "charged" air not the incoming air before the compressor.... so it is Air Filter->charger->intercooler->Engine..

[Skidtron89]

Hey whoopass tahnks for the pics. Like in the picture the only reason the miata can have a intercooler is because the SC doesn't replace the intake manifold on it. On a Honda your screwed. There is ways to do it but it takes a lot of fabrication like in the other pics and is pretty much not worth in anyways since so now the car is intercooled but your can't run more boost. Now someone says but you can get the 9lbs pulley kit or whatever the hell the big one is. WOW! 9lbs that's amazing! actually athat's not shit as far as boost is concerned. Even my little turbo can make about 15psi before surging. Not to mention I could upgrade the compressor housing and wheel and make more with not much more lag at all. The point is turbo is better and more flexible. Also it is as reliable as you let it be. If I left my turbo kit stock on the stock motor and never changed anything I'm sure it would drive for 100,000+ miles no problems. True the motor and turbo would be tired after I drove it that far because I have a lead foot but there would never be any reliability problems. The only problem I have had with mine was I tried to reuse the oil pan gasket cause I was to lazy to get a new one from Honda so it leaks. And that was only caused by the turbo kinda because I had to take the pan off so I could put the return line on it. So it's not even really it's fault so much as it is mine for not doing the right thing and replacing it when I had it apart.

[modern-perf]

Well you know, Steve, if you weren't so busy tearing up MY shit then maybe you would have time to fix yours!

:D

[Skidtron89]

hehe probably I just like running the shit out of your cars. Then not fixing mine and running the shit out of it till it breaks down.

I really need to fix the oil pan gasket it's getting silly how much it leaks. Oh! well I guess I'll get it this weekend........maybe,

[ssvr6]

Originally posted by Whooopasss
No.. no.. no.. you have to cool the "charged" air not the incoming air before the compressor.... so it is Air Filter->charger->intercooler->Engine..

I know the order, I was just forgetting that the SC takes the place of the manifold.

I guess any IC (water or air) would be a ton of fabrication and not worth it in the long run.

Steve

[Jpax]

dam i stink.... i smelt my own fart..... you know a person thats farts in church "sits in his own pewwwww"


:D

[ssvr6]

What are the chances of "squeezing" a Vortech unit in our engine bay?


Steve