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myeverlovinsir
12-17-2002, 11:28 AM
These are just the first pics of the TB removed and taken apart. Got it out this morning, and took it to the shop. Will be done this week. Will post the finished pics when its done. Also will be doing a dyno on thurs. after the TB is done. Cheers.:)


http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/pe526e79c391bfd387c3a247906e977d3/fcec064f.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/p95843a60612b878c1c0621c14a96f1fc/fcec0651.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/pb5c28f23447daa2606cdf30f61c63971/fcec0653.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/p4f33fd281fb237135c069b38c187ac32/fcec0655.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/p11fa1c2eb067eb4ffb6e36445753fa82/fcec0659.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/pf593e2a3391debdb9c40c91d65c64a60/fcec065f.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/p2ef62be4fc30e4dc830f680866cd5761/fcec065d.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/pd215338ac6bbbb89d640c64a8a6112f5/fcec064c.jpg

silver ep
12-17-2002, 11:32 AM
Cant wait to hear how it goes and see the results! ;)

IceD out N CALI
12-17-2002, 11:37 AM
good pics-cant wait to see how the throttle body bore job helps out on the dyno and later the track:)

CgSi
12-17-2002, 12:42 PM
How much ?? Or are you doing it yourself ? Where are you getting the new valve ?

myeverlovinsir
12-17-2002, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by CgSi
How much ?? Or are you doing it yourself ? Where are you getting the new valve ?

I assume that by valve you mean buterfly. This is part of the job.
A larger buterfly must be constructed to at least .001" tolerance
in order to get good idle properties. Is what is going to be done
to mine. Along with reducing the bolt heights along the buterfly
mount. (using flat head taper screws instead, less turbulance)
Also a radius along the outer lip. Air just does not like straight edges. A handy rule to remember is the 7 degree rule. Air is happy
when it becomes compressed into smaller diameter AND travels much faster, quicker responce, (pipes), when it is released into larger pipes or vessels it becomes increasingly
turbulent if the walls of the expanding/smaller vessel(pipe) increase/decrease more than 7 degrees from the incomming/outgoing diameter. This is common practice in the HVAC industry as well when transporting huge volumes of air over long distances. Sharpe edges are by far the most disruptive in flow.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/p70197803c05fb26b797a115e8512b00c/fcebe850.jpg
the stamp on the buterfly: 625
This pic shows the sealant used by a Honda robot for mass production. This specific robot is used to swipe the inner buterfly wall seal using a rubber compound. This is hondas cheap way to acomplish the same thing. Keeps their costs down on machine tolerances.

I started to label the items on the TB. A little too funky?:D


http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/p19f4693c7b6efc47ff6128914d5cb3a0/fcebd9cb.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/pa45e3a2f6e5266d4a5ee0f8fd18d6dd9/fcebef8c.jpg

myeverlovinsir
12-17-2002, 03:02 PM
Throttle body components.

JSIR
12-18-2002, 10:41 AM
the 625 stamp on the plate doesn't relate to bore measurement, its just a part number Honda uses in the production process. The stock TB is no more than 62mm in diameter, maybe just a tad smaller if anything. The finished product should be 64mm dead on or maybe a .001 over max.

Glen if you guys need help puttting the cable pulleys back together give me a shot, they are tricky as there are so many parts. You will love the radius Glen puts on these TB's it's gorgeous. They look awesome, and nobody else does that to their TB's.

Why is the TB bore wet ? is that coolant ?, I lost a shitload of coolant when I removed mine, these k20's will leak a lot of fluid if you don't plug the hose or raise it upwards. let me know how it goes.

Joey

myeverlovinsir
12-18-2002, 10:49 AM
We did measure the inner diameter at the buterfly and your
right, it is 62 mm dead on. But if you measure the outer ring
you will find that it is near 62.7 mm or there abouts. Kind of
a coincidence that the part number is 625. (hmmm)

Yep, thats coolant on it. I actually took apart the TB myself, and
left the cable assy. for Glen to monkey with. I will let you know
if he has probs getting it back together. tks.

Glen
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/p70197803c05fb26b797a115e8512b00c/fcebe850.jpg

Will2K2
12-18-2002, 12:45 PM
Leitner and Bush doing it?

How much is it gonna run you to have it worked on?

W

JSIR
12-18-2002, 04:46 PM
Will, Glen is having his TB done by Forest and Forest Racing, they are basically domestic race engine builders /machinists, but somehow I talked them into doing Honda TB's for me for a couple years now. They do decent work, biggest problem for them is getting the work into their schedule, these guys are busy all year long, so trying to get the turn around time as low as possible takes some work.

Leitner and Bush do nice work, they are more set up to get parts in and out for guys that live out of town or out of province. Leitner and Bush like to taper their TB's and they polish the surfaces pretty smooth, with Forest and Forest I got them to do smooth radiused end , kind of something I talked them into doing for me and I think it worked out very well. They don't polish their surfaces, I think that is kind of useless, more for show than go, as the TB surfaces are very smooth as they are. hth.

myeverlovinsir
12-18-2002, 04:52 PM
Forest & Forest Racing is doing it. All I can say about price, really depends on your providing the piece to be worked on. If you expect someone else to do your engine work like start from scratch say, then I would expect to pay more. If you do it yourself, and provide the part, it makes the toolmakers job that much easier. Such as removing every component you can, will save you money.

F&F did JSIR's first, so I got to see first hand. Some of the improvements that could be made. Tks.

Glen

myeverlovinsir
12-18-2002, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by JSIR
Will, Glen is having his TB done by Forest and Forest Racing, they are basically domestic race engine builders /machinists, but somehow I talked them into doing Honda TB's for me for a couple years now. They do decent work, biggest problem for them is getting the work into their schedule, these guys are busy all year long, so trying to get the turn around time as low as possible takes some work.

Leitner and Bush do nice work, they are more set up to get parts in and out for guys that live out of town or out of province. Leitner and Bush like to taper their TB's and they polish the surfaces pretty smooth, with Forest and Forest I got them to do smooth radiused end , kind of something I talked them into doing for me and I think it worked out very well. They don't polish their surfaces, I think that is kind of useless, more for show than go, as the TB surfaces are very smooth as they are. hth.


Nice, couple of things. I also should mention about the buterfly end stop. This part is also going to be precision ground to make the WOT be completely perpendicular to incomming air. One thing that was also noted lacking in the stock setup. Along with this is included the couter sunk screws to provide even less dc along the buterfly. Quite an involved job. so my origional estimate of 4 hours easily turns in to a couple of days. ;) Will have the pics of the completed job tommorow. tks:D

myeverlovinsir
12-18-2002, 06:07 PM
AnD, of course the numbers for your stock TPS. when removed from the car. should be close to these if you do this work. Needless to say that you need them in order to realign the TPS on the TB chassis so that the resistance is the same. (or very close)

pins 1 and 2 total resistance = 0.93 KOhms
pins 1 and 3 total resistance = 5.59 KOhms
pins 2 and 3 total resistance = 5.40 KOhms

myeverlovin...SiR:p
http://147.208.133.90/pixami/ImageServer.psp?Cmd=GetEditedImage&ID=sess:4KQAL2LJMOBS&width=-1&height=-1&fmt=jpeg&tm=1040260513370
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid42/p2cc051113cf08b7eace49ed3087f28b7/fcec064e.jpg

02blksi
12-19-2002, 09:50 AM
GREAT post, another sticky! :) --Joe.

BTW: just dropping in for a bit SQL training is a biatch!--see everyone tomorrow night... --:)

myeverlovinsir
12-19-2002, 03:34 PM
Well I got things done today, am very happy.

The pics of the finished product.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid43/p88c91bd5cdee1d7b4fc06994670d18b5/fcea080a.jpg
Notice the nice taper, Glen does great work.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid43/p7e79516caf73498e9f54fa6831a1cadd/fcea080b.jpg
64 dead on.
counter sunk screws for less drag.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid43/pe366e5c292595344f420ec216786405c/fcea080d.jpg
Perpendicular buterfly now.
Ground end stop for getting to perpendicular.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid43/p6287ceda5393362a2317bce400c75a2f/fcea080f.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid43/p439c2ff51d73a90bcbbc83c3290c5678/fcea0813.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid43/p605ce357bc67d37903740152472e20fc/fcea080e.jpg

The stock buterfly is oblong, here are the measurements.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid43/peb69a7c3a9844cdfbf85980add6a4fa8/fcea0815.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid43/pe9f520af036a7676fc4eeb5e49d21c7b/fcea0811.jpg

myeverlovinsir
12-19-2002, 03:44 PM
Now for the numbers!

Did a few runs, with and without ground cables, found no benifit
on my ride, but every engine is different to some degree.

Best run was 154.2hp and 133.9 tq. all were very consistant.
The lower pic compares the previous runs to the top one in red.
To show the gains.

Compared to my last runs I am up 6.4 hp and 5.4 tq. This is not
using the correction factor for my previous best run which was .99
So the actual gains are even higher. I can say safely that by adding a new TB, you should easily gain 5whp and 5tq.

The plot came out faint, this is the best pic I have that
shows a good comparison of before and after the TB.

Hardest part was realigning the tps, rest was simpler mechanically. Found that 1 or 2 ohms off and you could be fudgin the engine, like getting engine lights and poor response, etc.
When I read .93k ohms between pins 1 and 2 and only then did my engine run correctly. hth

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid43/p4fac052391e2be0df232af39c0af0d78/fcea0809.jpg

myeverlovin...SiR:Dhttp://147.208.133.90/pixami/ImageServer.psp?Cmd=GetEditedImage&ID=sess:LEFX1Q004P79&width=-1&height=-1&fmt=jpeg&tm=1040342570740

Merry xmas. Gonna wait till spring to spring it. someone will do this again, so hope this post helps. tks.:)

myeverlovinsir
12-19-2002, 08:01 PM
thought I'd put this up as well. for the interested. pic (http://147.208.133.90/pixami/ImageServer.psp?Cmd=GetEditedImage&ID=sess:YXW12AZ474SO&width=-1&height=-1&fmt=jpeg&tm=1040352864490)

Dyno vid (http://www.imagestation.com/video/play.html?id=4243183520)

:)

JSIR
12-19-2002, 08:20 PM
I love that radius/taper they put on those TB's. Good work as expected. Glen I guess that butterfly was 62.5 mm afterall , but it is larger in height because it sits in the bore on an angle. The width is less than 62mm on the stock bore which I thought was right. So we got about 2.5mm increase on the bore most likely. Hey , great numbers Glen, looks like these engines really like this mod. , good torque, I want that much now. !

:D

myeverlovinsir
12-19-2002, 08:30 PM
There was a couple of guys who ran before me in a prelude SR.
Ended up with 153 and 125. I went to crappy tire and came back they were still waiting around to see me run. The SiR attracts all importers. Love this engine. can't wait to boost it or charge it. Am leaning in the charge direction and think this is gonna get the most worry free HP compared to turbo. I hate having to live under a hood. Have seen good results from chargers as long as you stay beneath the recommended boost. 6 or 8 psi would be great. Thanks again Joey for the heads up and will prolly see you in the new year, still tweakin away. Glen

Quicksilver
12-20-2002, 12:32 AM
Congrats on the dyno results. You're top dog of power for EPHatchers once again! (NA power, at least)

Is the before and after with just the TB or with both the TB and Hondata gasket? How much did it end up costing you and how hard is it to find a reputable shop that can perform this operation? I really appreciate you posting this. Very informative.

02blksi
12-20-2002, 06:36 AM
SWEET numbers!!great job!!!-- Im sorry but how hard was it to reset the tps sensor? -- if you posted this answer just let me know, if not, would you be intrested in posting how to or refrencing where i can find out .. thanks-joe :)

edit btw:
your last dyno runs were with I/H/E ? right?

these runs were with. I/H/E hondata heatshield gasket, and bored tb, and grounding cables?

just want to clarify things..... :cool:

myeverlovinsir
12-20-2002, 10:08 AM
This time round I had a chance to play with ground cables on the dyno, tried a few diff. connection points on 3 separate runs. I found that it did not benifit me, as I said. The above dyno comparison is with the i/h/e and tb and heatshield but no additional ground cables. Think my stock grounds are holding up well. Previous runs were with i/h/e only. The TB makes alot of diff. and the heatshield is benificial in not heating up your manifold to some power robbing temperature, this is the only way you would gain power from the heatshield gasket.

Joe, the tps is something that is tricky, even for an experienced mechanic. The tps stock screws dont allow you to simply unscrew them, (peened on). Slots were cut along each screw head to make everything adj. with a flathead screwdriver. This allows you to rotate the tps back into the proper resistance settings once on the car and make adj. on the fly. Get it as close to the stock readings on the workbench before putting it in.

Finding a good shop to do this work is key. ;)

02blksi
12-21-2002, 12:05 PM
GREAT info... one last thing...

what are the OEM specs. for the resistance on those pins?
OR is it pretty much a car to car thing?
--thanks --Joe :)

myeverlovinsir
12-21-2002, 01:11 PM
First page Joe. Those are the stock and/or OEM numbers. I imagine this is what you would get if you went out to your car and took the readings yourself. (Comparison would be great). When you take yours off to do this job, you will have to determine what the resistance is, but I would be surprised if they were way off from mine. What I can surmise is that the 1-2 pin resistance is most critical, it tells the ECU when the TB is completely closed. Found that higher/lower resistances between these 2 pins would create a challenge to the ECU to keep idle.

Whatever they are you must record them in order to have a reference when you mount it again. Your right it is a car to car thing, and don't just assume that these numbers are gospel. Just what I found to be on my ride.

JSIR
12-22-2002, 08:14 PM
actually the top dog in the power department has been Miamijdm so far naturally aspirated, he hit just over 157 whp with short ram intake, HP header, 2.25" custom midpipe. I believe torque was 129.5 ft lbs. He also went on to get huge power with NOS on that setup. Haven't heard much from him since then though.

SmoothOperator
12-22-2002, 08:37 PM
I'm going to have a MILLION questions to ask you guys, when I decide to bore my TB. Nice work Glen!!

Hondata
12-22-2002, 09:12 PM
What is the diameter of the cold air intake pipe you have? It looks a lot smaller than the throttle body.

Our bored throttle body testing on two engines has had mixed results. One showed no change (this was a 205 HP type R engine), the other showed a 5Hp increase.

JSIR
12-22-2002, 09:37 PM
Glen is running the AEM CAI system , not sure the diameter, probably 2.75 inches which is about 69mm. The TB's we are using are 64mm at the butterfly and about 66mm at the leading edge. Both Glen (myeverlovinsir) and I gained about the same hp with our throttle bodies , same vehicle , same mods (with exception of the Hondata intake gasket) , and the same shop did our TB work. Seems like 6 whp was pretty much the gain on both of our engines, and we gained power at all rpms over 3000 rpms without any loss on bottom end. Glen did add the Hondata manifold gasket since his earlier dyno runs but I doubt it showed any gains in this frigid weather we are now having up here as the manifold barely heats up this time of the year.

That is strange that a higher output k20 motor doesn't gain any more power with a bigger TB , but our lower powered EP motors really seem to like it. Another strange twist to tuning these k20 motors.

myeverlovinsir
12-23-2002, 06:29 AM
JSIR, I never saw a dyno from Miamijdm but I could add that I have not seen anyone here put down more tq. yet. Not sure what Miamijdm reported in tq.?? I am also running the DC header with a reinforced baffle plate to keep the torque up.

Kind of strange how hondata testing has been showing similar gains on the stock components, (152 and 131) wonder how much of that will carry through to the I/H/E setup? Interesting that Hondata is including a TB mod in their tunning. I'm looking forward to the results guys.

JSIR
12-23-2002, 07:12 AM
Glen, Miamijdm was putting down 129 ft lbs torque, so yes you are the king of torque !. I think the AEM and DC Header combine for good mid range torque for sure.

02blksi
12-23-2002, 02:53 PM
hey what am i chopped nuts?LOL

who can beat these numbers 150 and130 with JUST an AEM CAI and 2.25 catback to N1 !!!!

Joe --Who wants to be king of .... well something LOL :)

hey hondata, hows the R+D going on the si?

myeverlovinsir
12-23-2002, 04:49 PM
Your right Joe. So we could surmise that you would benifit the most from a TB mod? I mean you are still running the stock header right? Nice indeed. See if you can get past on doing that. It would be very interesting Joe seeing as the stock header is a nice torque gain. Good Luck! you could easily add say 7-8 hp and 6 tq. nice. Then yes you would be king of torque and hp.:angel:

GeNoZiDe
12-23-2002, 08:27 PM
hey im from Toronto, just woundering where you guys bored out your throttle bodies and the price it went for? = )

JSIR
12-23-2002, 08:37 PM
Whenever you guys dyno your cars on an inertia dyno such as Dynojet, try not to read the whp figure off the little spike that happens at the end of the dyno run. The dyno program lists the max whp from that little spike, but it is a bit misleading. That is just an effect of the drivetrain pushing off on the dyno drums as power cuts out, happens quite frequently, that little spike can be worth up to 4 whp. The flat part of the power curve just before the spike is more representative of the actual power before redline.

Genozide, we got the TB's done at Forest and Forest Racing, in Kitchener, you would have to call them for pricing as I am not sure what they charge the general public as I get pretty good deals from them because of the business I have done with them over the years. If you are in Toronto you may want to check out Leitner and Bush, they do top notch work on Honda throttle bodies and have good turn-around time. If you need any contact info for either one let me know and I can pm it to you.

myeverlovinsir
12-24-2002, 01:43 PM
Well said Joey, torque is hard to fake (there is a finite amount). HP readings, such as the cuttoff don't mean much, I agree. The only thing I take to heart about it is that we have so much more room up top for more hp in the higher revs. Would be surprised if someone got 140 ft-lbs out of this engine NA. The type-s sits between 120-125 throughout its torqure curve after hondata has tuned. If you look at my dyno sheet closely you will see that I am making more hp and tq than a hondata tuned type-s up to 6500 rpm. Not bad imho.;)

Dunrick
12-25-2002, 10:02 AM
I hate to ask this question cause its kind of lame, but how much (ballpark figure) would you say all of this including the new tb job has cost ya? I just want to know how much it costs to make our cars n/a up to specs

Also bro, does the car feel lots faster?

JSIR
12-25-2002, 11:03 AM
I can say this is the cheapest set of mods I have ever invested in to get up to 150whp - 155 whp. On my 99 SiR I had to spend more than three times as much.

Ballpark costs in US funds -
In my case we have - SRI Intake (170), Header (170), Midpipe (100), Throttle Body (100). So total cost $540 US funds excluding taxes and shipping and all that stuff . Good for 17whp gains approx. I spent a lot more money playing and swapping different parts though, plus a couple hundred dollars on the dyno.

I just modified the stock intake, if it works as well as the SRI , we can take $170 off the top numbers. Not quite sure how it compares at this point in time though, hard to tell without putting it on a dyno.

So does the car feel faster ? , yes mostly in top end power, it is more responsive as well. Does it feel a lot faster ? , not a huge amount as small power gains are difficult to judge by the butt dyno especially when done in stages - one mod. after the other. The gains look pretty impressive on a real dyno.

Dunrick
12-25-2002, 01:04 PM
Your up there with rsx - s speed now arn't you...Do you think it would be a drivers race with your car and a type s? The still have more whp though dont they? Thanks for the info man -peace

02blksi
12-25-2002, 04:10 PM
im sorry to be the bearer of bad news, BUT in stock form the RSX-S makes almost 20 more whp but a smidgen less torque than the best modified ep right now

stock rsx-s stock 169 whp (@ wheels)
stock ep- 138 @ wheels
modified ep (miamijdm's) 157 whp I/H/E
modified rsx-s - 189 whp I/E (I HAVE pics of this guys dyno run and video to prove it !! To say the least my jaw dropped with those numbers, and that was with a Injen SRI and Fujitsubo exhaust)


soooooo.... we arent rsx-s eaters but hey we might give em a run for there money you know...what is working in our advantage Tuning wise from what i can gather is Hondata is able to make some pretty impressive gains with ecu tuning, and supposedly since our intake manifold and TB is the same exact as the S we like to make power up top unlike the base rsx which restrictive manifold and smaller TB makes more torque but less whp. so who knows, kinda funny though how honda made the SI better than the RSX base :) --But im ok with that! -Joe :)

Dunrick
12-25-2002, 05:33 PM
Word - thats fine that they are faster - for the money we can make our car faster probably. After all they are about 6k more than our car. If we put 6k into our motor - blaaaamo! hehe. Is the S getting good torque gains aswell has hp? Or mostly hp gains? Thanks for the info -peace

myeverlovinsir
12-25-2002, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by Dunrick
Your up there with rsx - s speed now arn't you...Do you think it would be a drivers race with your car and a type s? The still have more whp though dont they? Thanks for the info man -peace

always a drivers race, but yes I now have more power up to 6500rpm compared to the dyno sheet on hondatas site for the K20A2 tuned. imagine the added rpm in the type-s is still a factor in a race.
Keep in mind that the hondata tuned type-s is stock I believe, and the same modifications that I made would drastically make the type-s a much bigger beast. :cool:

Skidtron89
12-26-2002, 10:16 PM
What kind of time do you think that setup is running? Modern-perf's car is pretty fast I'd say 14.5ish like a Mustang GT in comparison to me. I think he is the top dog for NA if you include swaps in that.

myeverlovinsir
12-27-2002, 07:42 AM
I won't say that a swap even compares, much more money. I will be running 1/4's come spring and think 14's is reasonable. We'll see.

Skidtron89
12-27-2002, 04:11 PM
High or low 14's have you raced any cars that we can compare your car to. I'm not trying to corner you just trying to get an idea of how fast your car is.

02blksi
12-28-2002, 01:18 PM
MY post was not an ATTACK on you nor was i stating anything about my car or yours, just wanted you to come back down to what we like to call earth. anyways. No more posts like this, back to the original topic at hand. --Thank you -Joe.

rocket_civic
12-29-2002, 07:40 PM
Either GLen or JSiR could you please email me at rocket_civic @hotmail.com asap.


Trevor

ecsahs3
05-22-2003, 04:54 PM
Does anyone know a good shop in SoCal? I'm feenin' the TB bore and was going to ship mine to King Motorsports, but all this talk about the TPS sensor is making me weary to remove the TB myself. Suggestions?

myeverlovinsir
04-13-2004, 05:07 PM
If anyone needs to see the pics in this thread, my recommendation is to right click on the red x's, go to properties and copy the Address:(URL) link into a new browser. It works. Sorry that immagestation sucks.;)