* to Honda Bond, or not *

[Ba82Ep3]

One of the things that frustrate me most about the K series is the use of sealant.

* It makes maintenance a pain in the ass (which is one reason its used... the average shade tree mechanic doesnt like messing with it, so people pay to have their cars serviced).

* For those of us that DONT mind frequent maintenance, or rebuilds, its time consuming to pull something apart, and prep for reuse/rebuild.

I understand why its used in the tranny, and between the girdle and the block... those parts are least likely to be torn down on a regular basis. But why doesnt anyone offer rubberized, reusable gaskets for the chain case and the oil pan??

I reassembled a k20a3 for a friend a few years ago that really needed to be rebuilt, but she didnt have the coin to do so. The oil pump failed, and the result was metal in the oil that was circulated throughout the engine. Most of the engine was taken apart and cleaned, another oil pump installed, and it was buttoned up and started.

Im the type of person that believes in 3 oil changes in the first 3000 miles of new engine use, including dropping the oil pan for cleaning/inspection. In her case, 3 changes were done in a period of a few days. After some thought about the pain in the ass and the expense of the Honda Bond use, i made up a two piece paper gasket for the oil pan... and it worked out great.

Heres wishing for some rubberized cut gaskets. Any input or ideas where i can find the material?

[ep3jd]

I never knew that was how the oil pan was sealed. I'm interested to hear more on this topic.


Waiting for talonxracer's response

[Kerby]

I agree.

[03Si757]

As much as hondabond runs aswell, and not only that, having to wiat for it to arive, but Iv replaced the gasket on my oil pan using that parmatex ultra grey, aswell as the timing chain cover gasket, and have had NO issues whats so ever, but dave, I def agree with you on this matter, it would only make sense, if it fails, or beings to show signs, pull it off, replace, much like the valve cover gasket... All the tech now a days, you think they could have come up with something now a days.

[VIZHUNZ02SI]

i feel ya bra. droping the oil pan or the tcc is a bit much when putting it back and waiting for it to set

[talonXracer]

The timing chain case and oil pan is supposed to stay on for the life of the engine, the reason why they went to a chain. Another reason why, is the fact the timing chain cover is a load carrying part(why the TCT cover is there) and the oil pan is designed as a load bearing part when the cast pan is used.

There is no reason why you need to remove those to perform maintenance, only repair

Do not use the "hondabond" that is the usual choice for the earlier archaic Honda engine platforms, Use the "UltraSeal II" from Honda.

[ep3jd]

He has spoken!

[civictype_r04]

As much as hondabond runs aswell, and not only that, having to wiat for it to arive, but Iv replaced the gasket on my oil pan using that parmatex ultra grey, aswell as the timing chain cover gasket, and have had NO issues whats so ever, but dave, I def agree with you on this matter, it would only make sense, if it fails, or beings to show signs, pull it off, replace, much like the valve cover gasket... All the tech now a days, you think they could have come up with something now a days.

I used the parmatex ultra gray the other day when I put on my new oil pan on. It is awesome stuff!!!

Sent from my HTC THUNDERBOLT 4G LTE using tapatalk

[Ba82Ep3]

The timing chain case and oil pan is supposed to stay on for the life of the engine, the reason why they went to a chain. Another reason why, is the fact the timing chain cover is a load carrying part(why the TCT cover is there) and the oil pan is designed as a load bearing part when the cast pan is used.

There is no reason why you need to remove those to perform maintenance, only repair

Do not use the "hondabond" that is the usual choice for the earlier archaic Honda engine platforms, Use the "UltraSeal II" from Honda.

The engine wasnt designed for cams, boost, or any of the other power adders we throw at it. So maintenance will be (should be) more frequent for those of us that use and abuse our k's.

As stated, i understand the reasons for using Honda Bond (or Ultra Flange ll, most are familiar with Honda Bond, hence why i chose that for the title). I didnt list all of the reasons Honda used it, or why i think they shouldnt. I just listed some highlights to discuss an aftermarket gasket offering in its place.

I hadnt considered the chain case a load bearing part of the engine... but it does tie the block to the head. The cast oil pan definitely bears load, but its dowel pinned AND bolted to the block and tranny, and the k20a3 doesnt come with one stock.

That stamped oil pan is a motherbiotch to get off once its installed with sealant. Eff that pan...

With that in mind... im thinking a 'skeleton' of Delrin, (machined to go to and around each bolt hole, and will provide proper spacing once the bolts are tightened so the gasket material doesnt get squeezed out), pressed into a mold of gasket material. The gasket material should be 2 or 3 microns thicker than the skeleton so it seats properly.

Im not sure on the gasket material or its availability as of yet, nor the bonding material or process. Im still researching. Delrin is easy to get, easy to machine, and should serve as a great starting place...

... maybe this could be assembled in layers like a head gasket (two thin layers of gasket material with a thin center layer of stainless)... any thoughts?

[talonXracer]

Dont forget the pass side engine mount bolts to the chain case.


Even a high performance engine sees very little need for cracking the oilpan or chain case, I dont expect any engine I build that would require the chain case or pan being removed EXCEPT to repair a major failure, or i just put 150K miles on the timing chain. Drop the timing chain down into the timing cover and off the crank sprocket doing a cam swap and a dedicated gearhead can have it properly timed in no additional time, and in fact my preffered method for doing cam swaps is to entirely disregard trying to save the cam shaft timing and allow the timing chain to fall down out of the way.

The steel pans can certainly be used to provide additional strength, but not Entirely by themselves, the K24A2's pan to trans brace can be easily mounted onto the A3 seeing they use the same pan.