Honda, are you losing your way? Must Read!

[sleepy ep3]

So its been a long time since I posted a thread or post that didn't consist of one-liners, talking shit, or some dumb bullshit. I'd like to think that this is my chance at redemption in the virtual world, (not really, but it sounded cool when I wrote it) This is a thread that I have been wanting to make for quite some time. It regards the topic of Honda seemingly losing their way, in terms of design, power, and competitiveness within their class. I would like to point out a few things that I have noticed, and would thoroughly enjoy a discussion between Ephatcher's on this topic.

It seems like for the past few years, Honda has been involved in a massive cost cutting plan, that directly affects their vehicle quality. While many of their cars still seem to be well built, and certainly durable, the appeal factor and horsepower/fun to drive factor has been slowly coming to a crawl. As we all know, Honda's have never been known for how fast they were, but more for the overall quality and fun factor of their automobiles. I have compiled a list of what I think is the closest and most direct competitors to the Honda vehicles in their class, and price range. When you put the current cars up against the competition, it gets kind of scary. Enjoy:

Honda S2000 vs Hyundai Genesis
http://i55.tinypic.com/2qkleok.jpg

The Honda S2000 was certainly a good car, but was it a car worth $30,000 for just 240hp? The engine was a very good motor, and set a record for most HP per liter, (until only recently being neaten by Ferrari) but was it worth it? As car enthusiasts, we see cars that we want all the time, and sometimes start saving to afford what we want. But the question I ask myself is, is a car that only has seating for 2, has 240 hp, and expensive upgrade options worth it? The car I have pictured next to the s2k is a Hyundai Genesis coupe for comparison. The Genesis offered 306 hp out of its v6, and acceleration numbers on par or beating the s2000. I do not bring this up because I don't like the s2000, but only because I question the value of the automobile as a whole. Don't hate me because I make these comparisons, it hurts me too.

Next: Honda Cr-Z vs upcoming 2012 Hyundai Veloster
http://i55.tinypic.com/29bh7r6.jpg

The Cr-Z was supposed to bring back the spirit and fun of the original CRX, and did so in my opinion only moderately. The fact that it was under-powered, for the increased weigh due to electric batteries, hindered the performance of the car so that it fell beneath competing vehicles, if there were any, and was kind of an oddball decision to make such a car in the first place, at such a price point. The 122hp, ONLY 33 mpg car did not offer much promise in areas that it would have fit in very well, and the styling was somewhat questionable, as if the car was trying to be 2 cars at once. The vehicle I have chosen to compare the crz to, is the upcoming 2012 Hyundai Veloster. In terms of style alone, the hyundai wins hands down. One could argue that the Mugen crz is a better looking car, but when that car is only a concept, and only 200 hp, and only $30,000+(!) the benefits start to shine for the competition. Please, don't hate me.

Next: Honda Pilot vs Toyota 4runner
http://i56.tinypic.com/5b60aq.jpg

If you are going to buy a truck, buy a truck. The Honda Pilot styling has begun to show its age, as the platform has not seen a major update in quite sometime. If we are to look at Honda as a whole, we must look at most, (if not all) of their vehicles in the lineup. Motor Trend recently rated the Pilot towards the back of the pack, losing out to Toyota, and Mazda in a comparo. I don't want to type about a truck too much, but WTF Honda, put a little passion into it. When shown next to the rather burly, masculine shape of the 4runner, starts to look like a "who's is bigger" competition.

Next: Toyota Venza vs Honda Accord Crosstour
http://i54.tinypic.com/10yqjrp.jpg

I don't really think I need to say much here, do I? The crosstour may be a handy little(?) vehicle, but it looks like Daffy Duck had sex with Big Bird. The big butt back end, and the sloping front, just don't do much to bring out the "young, and middle class family" that Honda wants to attract. Its ugly. If it was my money, I would not buy this car just on that fact alone.

Next: Honda Accord vs Toyota Camry
http://i56.tinypic.com/28wkzde.jpg

Here is a fight that goes back ages. The recent versions of these cars look good on paper, with both v6 versions offering over 270hp to the front wheels. The Toyota is currently the best selling car in America, and I think in most regards to what it accomplishes it deserves that title. The roomy interior, and reputation for quality, (accelerator jokes aside) plus the sporty styling make it an obvious choice for someone in that age range to buy, without either blending in to the sea of traffic, nor looking like an old fogey driving it. The accord does give a good fight, as the craftsmanship and build quality are very good, and it also has a good reputation. In this area I think it comes back to the styling again. Thoughts? Opinions?

Next: You knew it was coming....Honda Civic vs VW Golf, Hyundai Sonata, and many others hot hot hot on its tail.
http://i56.tinypic.com/20gitms.jpg

So it came to this. Honda gave it a good effort with the 2002-2005 civc si, but it was hindered by the "economy version" of the hot-for-2002 rsx-s motor. The 160 hp felt easy to rev and fun, but did it live up the the 200hp offered by the VW golf? Another car that is not pictured is the SRT-4 neon, with 240 hp, another car that would have been a competitor, at least on the street, as they are both the best the car-maker had from that segment at the time. The 2012 civic is said to be more of an evolution of the existing car, than a total redesign. The Sonota, is quickly approaching the sales numbers of Americas favorite little Honda, and is said to surpass it in the coming years.

So there it is. I hope to stir your minds, even if its for a little while.
"If you make people think they're thinking, they will love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you" -Don Marquis (1878-1937)
BTW I didn't make this up far any reason other than discussion, and TO THE MODS, I included the ep3 civic in here, so please let it stay in this category. It took a long time to type, and its a valid comparison.

IF ANYONE WANTS TO INCLUDE 1/4 mile times, horsepower numbers, sales numbers, or compose a bunch of interior shots for comparison, I think that would be a valuable asset to this thread. I don't have the time to do it all. Lets makes this the end-all, be-all thread, whether it helps prove my point, or helps disprove it, I value your input.

[talonXracer]

Honda and their lawyers despise the free thinking of gearheads and what they can/could do with their vehicles. There is also the mandates coming down from our job killing Govt in regards to what is "acceptable", Honda is just following the desires of the sheeple.

[Rasy]

I love these discussions. I don't like to talk numbers too much, but here are my two cents:

I can speak somewhat on the S2000, and I think it's a great car to come around for Honda and its image in a long time. My brother had his eyes set on a certain combo, and we flew to Colorado for it. '01 GPW with red interior, in extremely mint condition. The 14-hour drive back to Texas was definitely a way to break it in.

You have to understand that the S2000 is, and always will be a driver's car. I don't consider our cars at the S2000 level, because that wasn't its intention. The S2000 had very minimal options, as it was mostly standardized across the board--it didn't even have a clock or glove box until years later; it wasn't what the engineers wanted initially. Sales started dropping off as the years passed with each model year, and it's impressive that it changed so little in its 10-year run, but ultimately it wasn't profitable.

It's actually good that you compared the Genesis coupe to this car, because it shows how far Hyundai has come, not so much about Honda, and they are the American manufacturers' current opposition. I think what happened at this point in time is that Honda has decided to rest on its laurels, meaning Honda knows they're a good brand and achieve great milestones, but did very little to improve their current generation while others played catchup. Toyota is bad about that too.

The CR-Z still has some of the spirit of the CRX, but wasn't marketed nor priced very well in my view. With the MSRP being almost twice of that of the original 87' Si, you'd have to justify some of the expenses. It still remains a two-seater with no back seats like the original, which I thought was nice, but the performance was lacking. At the same time (dare I say) that didn't stop owners like us buying the EP3 with an economical motor, so you can't exactly look at it that way. I think the CR-Z will have its place when it gets more into the budgets of price-conscience car enthusiast.

No doubt about it, the 4Runner will win against most SUVs in these direct comparisons hands down. If you can pick just three brands to trek across the world with impeccable reliability and in terms of support, it would be Jeep, Land Rover, and Toyota. Toyota specifically for their Tacoma and the 4Runner. Though, the current 4Runner looks like its trying a bit too hard when some of them will survive only an urban, or suburban environment, I'd feel much better buying a car with more heritage than the Pilot which was just a larger byproduct to fill in the former Passport (remember those?) owners' desires.

Regarding the Crosstour and Venza, both being crossovers, I think Honda did a much better job in design than the Venza. The Venza looks more like the "Toyotafication" its known for, where they just update their models as larger, roomier, and make everything huge including their badge. While the Crosstour is no exception to this rule, the Toyotafication is known to run across other brands like Subaru, where the influence is obvious in models like the Tribeca or the current Forester (a sad moment, since it was such a unique wagon-turned SUV).

I've always considered the Accord and the Camry to be on the same level, but I can't deny the clean styling. I always thought the latest generation of the Camry looks far better than the Accord. The numbers also speak both ways, that despite going down in sales compared to last year, it still beats out the Accord which grew in sales since 2009. To recoup its sportier image, I think the 2-door Accord was designed well, also. I know the 2-door Camry was a limited run in the 90s, and I can only wonder what a future 2-door version would look like. Nonetheless, I consider the two near equals in terms of performance, practicality, and reliability, so it goes to the styling of the Camry on this one.

I see you saved the best for last (ha!). This article on Jalopnik confirmed where I think the Civic is heading:

http://jalopnik.com/5826679/how-the-honda-civic-went-from-first-to-worst

It comes back, again, to Honda resting on its laurels. While I am biased to believe the EP (and the Type R's) are the exception to the post-2000 Civics of Honda losing touch with reality, I believe just that. It's so, how do you say, plain these days. To me, it's not about the sportier image and the electronic gadgetry, I just can't fathom seeing, say, a 2007 Civic EX down the road 10-15 years from now with a happy owner entail. Maybe we will be seeing more examples of that in the future from Hyundai and its sister company Kia, seeing as how they are slowly gaining more market share and seeing record growth each year, but not from Honda.

When you see where Honda was and where it's at today, you have the feeling they took a wrong turn or two somewhere. It's natural to question, because you're onto something, but it's Honda who needs to realize that in the end.

[boricua4life]

:pop2:

[EPSU3]

There was actually an article about this on cnn money a few weeks ago about the fear that the company was losing its vision. The line "Stop playing with robots and get back to making great cars..." was used to close the article. The other thing that is going to hinder Honda in the near and farther away future is the lack of global partnerships that other large scale auto makers enjoy. VW and GM auto groups have dozens of subsidiaries and parts bins to pull from to build different variations of cars. Honda is still a major producer, and in my opinion still one of the best engineered product lines, but slowly falling into a niche market like Subaru. The Civic has to put up a fight agains the kia/Hyundai line ups in the HP and fun to drive factor. The tsunami/earthquake/nuclear disaster has slowed the supply lines and made Hondas over all more expensive.

[sleepy ep3]

I'm glad some people have an interest in this, and thank you for your good analogy Rasy. Lets keep it going....I want to really see how "Honda enthusiasts look at Honda today.

[BeaterEP]

The very first thing I thought when the latest gen Civics came out was "Shit, that looks like half the other cars on the road! WTF??!"
Since then, it's only gotten worse imho.
Reading that the newest Civics don't even seem to enjoy the "fun" handling that, well, Civics are supposed to be KNOWN for: that's just not a good sign.
Hell, there's a thread in the Engine forum right now in which alot of us have been talking about how, if nothing else, the chassis on the EP is great for daily fun. To hear that Honda has lost that...just sad.

[superd16girl]

Awesome comparison! I completely agree with you! I feel like they just don't care about what they are producing anymore. All the cars are just blending in with other vehicles on the road.

[Ba82Ep3]

This is exactly why i got rid of my FG and picked up a 95 Coupe. The newer car was nice and the engine is excellent but the spaceship interior and melted chocolate bar exterior wore on me.

The newer k engines are moving away from performance upgradability. Only a few of the kXXz series are worth having. IMO, the k20/24a and a few of the k20z components are Hondas last real performance effort... with emissions as a second.

So, i picked a chassis from Hondas history that made me smile the most... and decided to drop in what i considered to be the last of Honda's true performance spirit. The K. Its sad because i was REALLY looking forward to a v8 swap. God Honda PLEASE release that damn engine!

[jed_averill]

Lol it's like saying they scattered all the good parts to different cars and it's "OUR" job to find all of them and put them together as one car. On the other hand, I really really liked the S2000 but it is so over priced. Yup I said it, come at me bro! I would probably settle with an EVO, STI or an M3 with that much money.

I'm surprised a lot of you guys like our car (EP3), I never did my research and bought the car for the look and assumed it was fast because it's an Si after all right? First drive I thought it was fast because in fact it was the fastest car I have ever driven in my young years and pending.

PS Thread has potential.

[Tougeep3]

I think honda this decade is going to be the toyota of the 90's. just plain, eh, cars. Instead of tan I think they'll all be blue though..

[bearcat91]

How come acura continues to produce some sharp rides, while honda is getting kinda blah...

[BeaterEP]

I dunno man.... the new nose/tail design they've rolled out looks like total ass to me.

[hyu]

I've put Miatas in the same category as S2000s... Since both are made as simple as possible and hasn't really changed much.

[talonXracer]

How come acura continues to produce some sharp rides, while honda is getting kinda blah...

Huh? Acura=Honda, if there is a Acura then there is a Honda base model(for the most part/or a similar chassis, there are a few exceptions), may not be available stateside, but they make it, I dont consider any Acura all that sharp, hell I havnt seen a car in the past several years that has really caught the eye.

Besides there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY I will ever purchase a new car from any manufacturer. Far too many fancy dancy do-dads that mean nothing to me and they cost an arm & leg to upgrade/work on, give me a pre OBDII car every day!

The sidekick is awesome, 27$ for a ball joint, 40$ for a tierod and a rusted out banged up hulk can be had for 100-400$ with a perfect engine and drivetrain.

[.colin]

New hondas and new cars in general suck, period. The new civics are ugly as hell. The CRZ is a joke. The only thing going for it is that it looks cool. All these car companies brag about MPG nowadays and how many gadgets it has - who gives a crap. My dad has an 84 CRX that gets more MPG than today's hybrids and is probably more fun to drive than these "sports cars". People just don't want these kinds of cars anymore, they want facebook in the windshield and gauges to tell you when a tire is low on air because they are so oblivious to everything. I got in a Kia Forte the other day and it didn't even have a temperature gauge. It did though have 2 iphone ports, a few cigarette lighter outlets and all kinds of buttons in the steering wheel.

[BeaterEP]

LOL fucking ridiculous!
Seriously, no temp gauge?! I guess if it starts overheating, the CEL pops on and you just pay the stealership a shit load of money to replace a hose or a thermostat! Unbelievable.

And yeah, the current MPG hoopla is a joke. Like you said, a 27 year old CRX gets better mileage than the current boring ass hybrids, and the US mpg standards are just pathetic. In a decade, we'll be 20 years behind the rest of the first world LOL!

[.colin]

LOL fucking ridiculous!
Seriously, no temp gauge?! I guess if it starts overheating, the CEL pops on and you just pay the stealership a shit load of money to replace a hose or a thermostat! Unbelievable.

And yeah, the current MPG hoopla is a joke. Like you said, a 27 year old CRX gets better mileage than the current boring ass hybrids, and the US mpg standards are just pathetic. In a decade, we'll be 20 years behind the rest of the first world LOL!

Yeah. It also has the biggest fucking fuel gauge I've ever seen. It's as big as the tachometer.

[ttttrigg3r]

I got a hard on looking at that veloster. That's the first time I've heard of it.

[BeaterEP]

Yeah. It also has the biggest fucking fuel gauge I've ever seen. It's as big as the tachometer.

Face, meet palm.

[nmysiismyn]

I was just reading this Autoblog Report (http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/10/consumer-reports-chronicles-decline-in-hondas-design-co/) the other day and this report (http://www.autoblog.com/2011/09/01/honda-marketing-chief-responds-to-consumer-reports/) this morning...

There, you'll see that Honda's new Marketing Manager graded Honda's recent cars a B-.
I thought that was interesting. A B- is a pretty low self-grade- even for one who wasn't responsible for it, but is oly a newcomer to the brand...
Keeping it real, for sure.

I knew back in mid-2005 (when the FG Si came out) that we had the last TRUE Civic the world will see for many years to come- one that's actually fun-to-drive.

[POOPTOOTH]

On that note...


2012 Honda Civic: Scores too low for Consumer Reports to recommend (http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2011/08/2012-honda-civic-lx-scores-too-low-for-consumer-reports-to-recommend.html)

"The redesigned-for-2012 Honda Civic LX scored too low in Consumer Reports testing to be recommended. Let that sink in for a minute. It’s quite a fall.

The Civic has long ranked among CR’s top small sedans, having been a Top Pick as late as 2007. It’s also long been reliable, and we don’t expect that to change in the not-extensively-redesigned 2012 model.

So what happened? The new Civic feels insubstantial with a cheap interior. You don’t get much feature content for the $19,405 that our Civic LX automatic costs, either. That’s a problem given the high bar set in this class by the new-to-market Chevrolet Cruze, the redesigned-for-2012 Ford Focus, and the redesigned-for-2011 Hyundai Elantra.

But a savvy buyer could sit in a showroom and realize those Civic shortcomings. The problems that really hurt the Civic’s score run deeper and they showed up at our test track. Stopping distances are long. The steering is lightly weighted and comes up short on feedback. Body lean appears early in the corners. The ride is marred by frequent short pitches. And road noise still remains an annoying companion."

[Ba82Ep3]

I remember buying a brand new 93 DX coupe off the showroom floor for $13,400. I loved that car. Wish i still had it to this day.

The only thing that sucked was the freon change that was mandatory then... the AC took forever to do work.

Honda needs to stop pouring so much $ into airplane RnD and release some kickass cars. Regardless of the economy, every auto maker should have a sports car. If the only thing we have cars for is transportation to complete our drone lives, then the real reason the car was invented has been forgotten. I drive because i love to.

[ace of spades]

has anyone else noticed the "Honda scene" has become overshadowed by the "VW scene" recently. gentlemen, we are witnessing the end of the Honda tuning era if things don't change quickly.

[gtolio]

has anyone else noticed the "Honda scene" has become overshadowed by the "VW scene" recently. gentlemen, we are witnessing the end of the Honda tuning era if things don't change quickly.

I think the whole import modification scene is tapering off in general. All the F&F fanboy stuff can only last so long. What you have left are the people who are genuinely interested in cars and have been since before all of that. The reality of that is that there will be less interest in the import scene because of it.

You're always going to have the people who have to have and mod the newest car, whether it be a civic, a wrx, whatever... I think for the most part, those people aren't really interested in cars, they just want to try to look cool. If Honda stops making cars that people find exciting to mod, a lot of the scene will fall off with it.

I think that cars in general are going by the wayside. There are more and more cars that don't come available with manual transmissions. Nearly everything these days is drive by wire, brake by wire, etc. Soon enough, you won't even be driving anymore, it will just be a computer. I think it's kind of sad that we as a society are taking the driving out of driving. There's something to be said about making a tactile connection with a car, and I think that's slowly fading away in the name of comfort, options, safety, gas mileage.

I think every generation of civic gets farther from the original intent of the brand. We are just seeing the next "step" of that with this new one.

[Rasy]

Soon enough, you won't even be driving anymore, it will just be a computer. I think it's kind of sad that we as a society are taking the driving out of driving. There's something to be said about making a tactile connection with a car, and I think that's slowly fading away in the name of comfort, options, safety, gas mileage.


This was something Jeremy Clarkson make quite apparent when he tested the newer Mercedes Benz S-Class. He was so impressed with the potential for the car to drive itself in cruise control, had all these amenities, and asked the viewer then why he even needed to drive this car. Keep in mind that the S-Class' technologies trickle down to the mainstream and across manufacturers, since they were the first to have many things and do today.

[alphasaur]

Doesn't the sonata compete with the accord? The elantra competes with the civic.

[stevemachine17]

I think honda this decade is going to be the toyota of the 90's. just plain, eh, cars. Instead of tan I think they'll all be blue though..

I totally agree. Honda has become extremely bland to me, and there prices are too high. Top model civic is 25k after tax? Sheesh it's just a 4 cylinder compact.

[EPSpeedKing]

Honda has lost its way since the s2000 production ended. I used to look forward to new honda models coming out, but now I just don't care for Honda anymore. I'm also including Acura too.

[HondaMat2Si]

I've turned into a Ford guy. After they stole their new CEO from Boeing in 2005, he decided to build betters cars to get out of their rut, instead of taking gov't money like GM and Chrysler.

I'd rather have the new Fusion > Accord/Camry. New Edge > Pilot/Highlander. The new Focus looks pretty good though I haven't done much research.

I currently drive an '09 F-150 and the car is perfect. No troubles, build quality seems to be better than the ep3 too.

I think the Fusion is the first car to come out since Ford's new CEO. And my truck was second.

I wanted an '09 Tacoma at the time, but even though it has a smaller, weaker engine, smaller bed and interior space (I have over 43" rear legroom and I think 65" hip room), and the mpg is barely any better (on paper, I get better mpg than my friend who actually bought the Tacoma TRD-Sport) it cost more than an F-150 with similar options.



I'm actually going to get another ep3 though lol. I really want one.

[DRP967]

Doesn't the sonata compete with the accord? The elantra competes with the civic.

Hyundai used to make crappy cars, now they are legit.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4131/5020576739_59d65e914b_o.jpg

http://www.vividracing.com/forums/gallery/files/1/5/2/0/1/genesis2.jpg

http://www.dieselupload.com/files/1/DSC_0044.jpg

*Cant forget the fuel efficiency of the line up, 40 MPG for most cars. And the Sonata is mid 30s if I am not mistaken. Civic And Accord's MPG and design is disappointing.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2596/3985927653_b6c7f5da3b.jpg

[BlackEp3]

Hyundai used to make crappy cars, now they are legit.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4131/5020576739_59d65e914b_o.jpg

http://www.vividracing.com/forums/gallery/files/1/5/2/0/1/genesis2.jpg

http://www.dieselupload.com/files/1/DSC_0044.jpg

*Cant forget the fuel efficiency of the line up, 40 MPG for most cars. And the Sonata is mid 30s if I am not mistaken. Civic And Accord's MPG and design is disappointing.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2596/3985927653_b6c7f5da3b.jpg

super nice sonata... looks like the benzo cls

[Rasy]

Check out this recent CarTalk blog post relating to the topic:

http://cartalk.com/blogs/jamie-kitman/?p=387

[STP03BlueSI]

Hyundai used to make crappy cars, now they are legit.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4131/5020576739_59d65e914b_o.jpg

http://www.vividracing.com/forums/gallery/files/1/5/2/0/1/genesis2.jpg

http://www.dieselupload.com/files/1/DSC_0044.jpg

*Cant forget the fuel efficiency of the line up, 40 MPG for most cars. And the Sonata is mid 30s if I am not mistaken. Civic And Accord's MPG and design is disappointing.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2596/3985927653_b6c7f5da3b.jpg


But Stock they still look like shit.

[rjmq06]

always remember as one of the member here said "they took so many years to catch up" and one of friend read an article in temple of vtech or vtech.com they said "honda doesnt make cars the way you wanted they make cars depending on the economy and right now they focusing on making hybrid cars, crz is just the beginning just wait and see maybe they can perfected the hybrid racing engine

[DRP967]

But Stock they still look like shit.

Like most Hondas/Toyotas/Nissans/etc.

Unless your buying a beamer/benz/bentley/porshe/lambo/ferrari/pagani/lotus/etc...those look good even in stock form.

Basically most Jap cars need to be modded to look better. Oh and Korean/Indian too.

[HFPcivicSI]

Just as a thought, you could always do what fisker did, and make your own cars..